How are soviets created?

[A.R.Amistad]

How is a worker's council created? How do we plan to organize worker's councils and where do we start? Everyone seems to act as if they spring out of the ground.

[ContrarianLemming]

to put it simply, there created when the members of the local community say "lets make a council to assistin decision making"
it's not like theres a special trick to it, there powerful forces when we agree to them, if we agree to use this form of democracy then it's as easy as cake.

[A.R.Amistad]

Is Publix a fledgling soviet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publix#Structure

[CommunistRus]

It's intreasting idea but some moments:
1) Have you modern theory of socialism?
2) How many people supported your platform not only at this forum)
3)What idea can you get for other pople and worker?

[Zanthorus]

These ICC texts might be of interest to you:

http://en.internationalism.org/ir/140/workers-councils-01
http://en.internationalism.org/ir/141/workers-councils-02

:)

[StoneFrog]

Worker councils really need to be autonomous and rise from within the workers themselves. This can come about by workers seizing their work place from the bourgeois, but how ever it doesn't work well without revolutionary support. As with anything you have to bring about a work place change you need to build up the class consciousness.

[A.R.Amistad]

It's intreasting idea but some moments:
1) Have you modern theory of socialism?
2) How many people supported your platform not only at this forum)
3)What idea can you get for other pople and worker?

I didn't open Publix, nor do I have anything to do with it :laugh: i was just wondering if the phenomenon was similiar to soviet creation.

[CommunistRus]

I say about general idea but not you))

[AK]

It's intreasting idea but some moments:
1) Have you modern theory of socialism?
I accidentally socialist theory.


2) How many people supported your platform not only at this forum)
I would be guessing Left Communists, Council Communists, Anarchists, Luxemburgists and the like.


3)What idea can you get for other pople and worker?
Huh?

[S.Artesian]

How is a worker's council created? How do we plan to organize worker's councils and where do we start? Everyone seems to act as if they spring out of the ground.

How? Generally from strike committees and other forms, like neighborhood councils-- the FEJUVE organizations in El Alto, or raions in Russia.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

These ICC texts might be of interest to you:

http://en.internationalism.org/ir/140/workers-councils-01
http://en.internationalism.org/ir/141/workers-councils-02

:)
Thanks. BTW, your e-penis is at 666. THAT'S SO METAL.

[Kléber]

In Russia the soviets began as neighborhood and workplace organizations, organized across party lines, that took over the functions of a collapsing society and failed state like emergency distribution, crime prevention etc.


The creation of the soviets presupposes that the different parties and organizations within the working class, beginning with the factories, become agreed, both as regards the very necessity for the soviets and as regards the time and methods Of their formation. Which means: since the soviets, in themselves, represent the highest form of the united front in the revolutionary epoch, therefore their inception must be preceded by the policy of the united front in the preparatory period.
...
One must begin creating the soviets at the moment when the general condition of the proletariat permits soviets to be created, even against the will of the upper crust of the Social Democracy. But to do so, it is necessary to tear away the Social Democratic mass from the leading clique; and the way to do that is not by pretending it is already done. In order to separate the millions of Social Democratic workers from their reactionary leaders we must begin by showing these workers that we are ready to enter the soviets even with these “leaders.”http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/germany/1932-ger/next02.htm#s8

[HEAD ICE]

Workers councils are the spontaneous result of workers exerting their influence over capitalism in the most revolutionary way. Workers and workers only create the councils, it is nobody ellses task.

[Devrim]

How is a worker's council created? How do we plan to organize worker's councils and where do we start? Everyone seems to act as if they spring out of the ground.

They do sort of spring out of the ground. The base of workers' councils is the mass meeting of workers. This is something that happens in many big strikes. The next step from this is the election of an accountable strike committee. When the struggle gets to a stage where these committees are tending to become permanent and generalised in many workplaces, the linking of them together is a workers' council.

Devrim

[Jolly Red Giant]

Workers councils are the spontaneous result of workers exerting their influence over capitalism in the most revolutionary way. Workers and workers only create the councils, it is nobody ellses task.
Workers Councils can be spontaneous in a response to events - but they can also be established as a conscious industrial and/or political act.

There are numerous examples from Ireland between 1918-1922 where workers councils were established spontaneously for political reasons, spontaneously for industrial reasons, consciously for industrial reasons and consciously for political reasons. In all circumstances Marxist activists either laid the framework for the workers councils or actively led the organisation of the workers councils. This is not to say that there is a need for Marxists to be the driving foce behind workers councils, but is a reflection of the developing class consciousness of workers within a developing economic, social and political situation. It is inevitable that as class consciousness develops so too will the influence of Marxism and Marxist activists. These developments go hand in hand with methods of struggle and expand and contract depending on the objective situations. Workers councils begin in the workplace but inevitably expand into the wider community. However, at all times it is the workplace councils that will be the dominant factor in the operation of workers councils.

Workers councils are manifestations of the innate necessity for the lifeblood of democracy as part of the revolutionary process. They are a necessary part of the transfer of power from a bourgeois state to a workers state. As workers challange bourgeois rule then workers councils play the role of a duel power structure within society before moving to establishing workers power. Proletarian revolution cannot occur without the democratic structures that workers councils facilitate. In a revolutionary situation workers councils are a transitional phenomenon. Without the objective situation advancing to revolution it is inevitable that workers councils lose their function and be abandoned until the objective situation once again facilitate the establishment of workers councils. It is only with the success of a socialist revolution that workers councils become a permanent feature on the economic, social and political landscape.

Finally, the closest thing that currently exists as examples of embryonic workers councils would be currently existing Trades Councils. However, again from evidence from Ireland (which I have more knowledge of than any other situation) in a revolutionary situation, existing Trades Councils can inhibit the development of genuine democratic workers councils. More conservative layers of workers can have a dominant position on existing Trades Councils and Marxists need to be conscious of the political composition of Trades Councils and the existing balance of forces, both in society generally and among the working class.

[A.R.Amistad]

Has there ever been an instance in the US where worker's councils have been created? I am interested in applying theory to where I live, and it seems that workers' councils aren't as spontaneous here as they are elsewhere.

[Kléber]

Nothing happens spontaneously. "Spontaneity" only made sense as a legal defense for activists, "we didn't do that it happened spontaneously," but as a political theory it violates the scientific laws of cause and effect. Workers' councils don't come out of thin air. In a political situation like the one today, they can only conceivably come as a result of conscious political collaboration by masses of people across party lines for a common objective. Hopefully that common struggle will lead to the unification of sects and the end of petty sectarian feuds when we have more pressing issues to debate than what to call the Soviet Union, but before that happens we have to make the united front the order of the day. It's not like if we have faith in the great teachings, workers' councils will spontaneously sprinkle down from the sky like holy mana in a time of crisis. No step of the revolution is a parousia, it has to be organized by people. Workers councils require the conscious effort of an entire workplace/neighborhood community uniting in the democratic defense of its interests and the conscious organizing of politically active workers is always a precondition for any sort of political action.

As far as the US goes, there are "Labor Councils" analogous to the Trades Councils as JRG notes, but they are dominated by the AFL-CIO union bureaucracy and only represent a small layer of workers.

[HEAD ICE]

Obviously nobody thinks council are created through magic. The creation of workers councils depends on the conditions that make it possible. "Spontaneity" is used to refer how the councils are created by the workers themselves in response to their conditions rather than by decree and so forth.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Nothing happens spontaneously. "Spontaneity" only made sense as a legal defense for activists, "we didn't do that it happened spontaneously," but as a political theory it violates the scientific laws of cause and effect.

You are correct about cause and effect - my use of the word 'spontaneous' is related to whether a 'soviet' is consciously organised or a reaction to a specific event.

For example - the Limerick Soviet in 1919 was a spontaneous reaction to a decision by the British military authorities to impose martial law in Limerick. The framework for the Soviet was laid by the work of Marxist trade union organisers but it emerged directly as a result of the actions of the British authorities.

In contrast the Soviets in Knocklong, Bruree and Castleconnell we conscious political actions by the the workers involved and their union organisers. The Munster Soviets of 1922 were a conscious action by the workers involved, established to combat wages cuts and job losses.

[StoneFrog]

Also councils can't be led by a party or organization, for councils to work they have to cross the party lines. This is also why its know as spontaneous because its not driven by a party or organization its has become an organization within itself. Councils are not just work place councils but the joining of both community and workplace. This is how councils greatly differ from other forms of organizations like unions because it actively incorporates community and workplace.

[Glenn Beck]

Is Publix a fledgling soviet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publix#Structure

It totally is. I live in the glorious Red State of Floridia and the local Publix is the center of our thriving anarcho-syndicalist commune. I heard they're even thinking of introducing self-checkouts, so some local retiree or Haitian immigrant doesn't have to be burdened by a degrading cashier job. Imagine all the unalienated creative self-development they'll have time for!

[DenisDenis]

Also councils can't be led by a party or organization, for councils to work they have to cross the party lines. This is also why its know as spontaneous because its not driven by a party or organization its has become an organization within itself. Councils are not just work place councils but the joining of both community and workplace. This is how councils greatly differ from other forms of organizations like unions because it actively incorporates community and workplace.

So the councils would then decide over the fate of workers in a factory and of the
community, this all in one council? I thought there would be councils that govern cities, and
apart from that there would be special councils that govern working places.

[chegitz guevara]

Has there ever been an instance in the US where worker's councils have been created? I am interested in applying theory to where I live, and it seems that workers' councils aren't as spontaneous here as they are elsewhere.

Yes. There was the St. Louis workers commune during the Great Labor Uprising of 1877. When various cities have been hit by general strikes, workers councils were set up to keep things running smoothly. These were city wide councils though, not factory councils.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Also councils can't be led by a party or organization, for councils to work they have to cross the party lines.
Put bluntly - this is nonsense. Prior to a revolution it is inevitable that workers councils will have party influence. The Russian Revolution would never have happen had the bolsheviks not won a majority on the most important soviets in the country. In the aftermath of a revolution, particularly as the influence of the state decreases, there is likely to be little need for party influence on the councils, but that would take some time to pan out.


Councils are not just work place councils but the joining of both community and workplace. This is how councils greatly differ from other forms of organizations like unions because it actively incorporates community and workplace.
again - not correct. It is possible that that community and workplace councils could co-operate - but they would exist as independent entities. Where only one council exists in a community/workplace situation, the workplace council would be the dominant force. In many other instances workplace and community councils would have different purposes and would operate completely seperate.


I thought there would be councils that govern cities, and apart from that there would be special councils that govern working places.
This would be closer to the situation. Workers councils in the community would start in individual housing estates (replacing the impotent Resident's Associations that currently exist in many areas) - this would be followed by town councils or ward councils in larger urban areas, leading to large urban councils and regional councils (partly an alternate Trades Councils and Urban councils), eventually on to national councils. Where necessary there would be cross over between workplace and community councils to facilitate economic and social planning. Examples would be schools being run by teachers, parents and students, hospitals being run by medical experts, medical staff and patients etc.

[S.Artesian]

Yes. There was the St. Louis workers commune during the Great Labor Uprising of 1977. When various cities have been hit by general strikes, workers councils were set up to keep things running smoothly. These were city wide councils though, not factory councils.

1977? 1877, no?

And the strike committees, and coordinating committees in the Twin Cities teamster strike; Toledo; Flint, and Oakland-Bay Area during the 30s.

[RED DAVE]

There's a lot of terrific stuff in Jolly Red Giant's post. But some clarification and correction is necessary.


Workers councils are manifestations of the innate necessity for the lifeblood of democracy as part of the revolutionary process.True. But they are also manifestations of the necessity for the working class to control production, distribution, communication, etc.

Another thing (not covered by JRG): several posters have indicated that the origins of councils will be in the neighborhoods or communities. This is wrong. Councils will originate as a by-product of class struggle in the workplaces. They will spread to the communities, yes, but the root of them is in workers power and, therefore, in the workplaces.



They are a necessary part of the transfer of power from a bourgeois state to a workers state.True. But they are also the base of the workers state. They will be the fundamental units of government. This has to be stressed because, otherwise, we fall into the severe danger of bureaucratic deformation and bureaucratic power. The workers state will be an extension and expression of the councils, not the other way around. This is crucial.

A fundamental error of stalinism and maoism is to basically ignore the role of workers councils in the revolutionary process.

Anarchists make the opposite mistake of never going beyond the councils to the necessity of building a workers state based on them.


As workers challange bourgeois rule then workers councils play the role of a duel power structure within society before moving to establishing workers power.Not quite. The councils are already an expression and organs of workers power. That's what creates the condition of dual power. The process of "moving to establishing workers power" is the revolutionary process of extending the reach and power of the councils to the building of the workers state.


Proletarian revolution cannot occur without the democratic structures that workers councils facilitate.Actually, this has to be taken a step further. Proletarian revolution is the placing in power of the workers councils.


In a revolutionary situation workers councils are a transitional phenomenon.Big problem here. In a revolutionary situation, workers councils are only transitional if they remain local. As the revolution spreads and triumphs, so do the councils spread and triumph outward and upward to build the workers state. To the extent that there is a conflict between the state and the councils is the extent to which the revolution is bureaucratically deformed.



Without the objective situation advancing to revolution it is inevitable that workers councils lose their function and be abandoned until the objective situation once again facilitate the establishment of workers councils.Correct.


It is only with the success of a socialist revolution that workers councils become a permanent feature on the economic, social and political landscape.You have to go further than that. The councils, and their democratic extensions need to become "the economic, social and political landscape."

RED DAVE

[chegitz guevara]

1977? 1877, no?

And the strike committees, and coordinating committees in the Twin Cities teamster strike; Toledo; Flint, and Oakland-Bay Area during the 30s.

Yes, 1877. :o

[Jolly Red Giant]

RED DAVE
You are correct in your comments. I was primarily addressing workers soviets in a pre-revolutionary and revolutionary situation rather than post-revolutionary and was specifically using my knowledge from research into workers soviets in Ireland during 1918-1922.

Oh - and I did stress the importance of workplace soviets over community soviets.

[StoneFrog]

So the councils would then decide over the fate of workers in a factory and of the
community, this all in one council? I thought there would be councils that govern cities, and
apart from that there would be special councils that govern working places.

Yes i there will be separate councils within work place and community, but both will work side by side, i didn't express myself well enough i know =S


Put bluntly - this is nonsense. Prior to a revolution it is inevitable that workers councils will have party influence. The Russian Revolution would never have happen had the bolsheviks not won a majority on the most important soviets in the country. In the aftermath of a revolution, particularly as the influence of the state decreases, there is likely to be little need for party influence on the councils, but that would take some time to pan out.

In Russia soviets sprung up without the parties, then collaborated with the Menshevik and Bolshevik. Yes parties can support the councils AFTER they have formed, else the councils will not work due to sectarianism especially in modern times. I mean most left groups support councils, so a party or organization leading a council will only lead to disputes with other whom are not affiliated with that party/organization. Councils also seem to happen in times of great struggle, councils don't seem to happen in times where revolution in not on the minds of the masses. So if you want to form a council in times of little worker consciousness you will have to have it lead by a party, but will never be ass effective.




again - not correct. It is possible that that community and workplace councils could co-operate - but they would exist as independent entities. Where only one council exists in a community/workplace situation, the workplace council would be the dominant force. In many other instances workplace and community councils would have different purposes and would operate completely seperate.

Yes i did not express my self very clearly here, workplace and community councils are different councils but still come together. But i do disagree that worker council don't need a community council, if you do that it acts in the same way a union does; leaves out half of the people whom are home makers, unemployed, students etc..
Councils are the best chance to build a great bond between the community and the workplace, to deny this is just irresponsible.


I think how councils are organized beyond a local level is defined more by peoples tendency. From what i know most of the left support councils, but how those councils are organized can be disputed. To let council become a great tool for the working class we need them to be accepted by all of the left, From the Libertarians to the Authoritarians.

[Jolly Red Giant]

In Russia soviets sprung up without the parties, then collaborated with the Menshevik and Bolshevik. Yes parties can support the councils AFTER they have formed,
I will reiterate - this is nonsense. The fact that soviets can emerge without party political input does not mean that the these soviets will not come under party influence. You state that these councils collaborated with the Menshevik and Bolshevik - this is incorrect. The councils didn't collaborate with the Menshevik and Bolshevik - the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks fought a political battle for political control of these soviets.

In Ireland during the Limerick Soviet, a political battle was fought between Marxists who were members of the Socialist Party of Ireland and the rank-and-file of the ITGWU and more conservative elements (mainly organised around the craft unions and Sinn Fein supporters) for control of the soviet, part of the reason for the failure of the soviet was the victory of the conservative elements. Subsequent to this some Marxists abandoned the SPI (which was moving to the right) and formed the Revolutionary Socialist Party. Members of the RSP were the key elements driving the establishment of the soviets over the following three years.


else the councils will not work due to sectarianism especially in modern times. I mean most left groups support councils, so a party or organization leading a council will only lead to disputes with other whom are not affiliated with that party/organization.
Again this is nonsense - the political battles between different tendencies on the left have been fought on soviets for 100 years. Inevitably one (or possibly two) organisations will come to prominance and will achieve a political victory. What you are suggesting is rubbish. The working class do not tolerate sectarianism lightly and will sweep aside any organisation that it feels is inhibiting its development.


Councils also seem to happen in times of great struggle, councils don't seem to happen in times where revolution in not on the minds of the masses. So if you want to form a council in times of little worker consciousness you will have to have it lead by a party, but will never be ass effective.
Workers councils will not form at times of low consciousness of workers. Soviets emerge for a reason and a developing class consciousness and a pre-revolutionary situation are necessary for a revolutionary soviet to exist.



Yes i did not express my self very clearly here, workplace and community councils are different councils but still come together.
This may or may not happen. For example - there is a large plant near me making medical devices. 90% of the workforce do not live locally. While the workers council in this plant might have some contact with local community councils particularly in a pre-revolutionary situation, post-revolution it would by necessity be minimal. The council would be more concerned with a national plan connecting hospitals and companies producing medicine and devices rather than any local community council. Contact locally would be in the areas of employment policy etc.


But i do disagree that worker council don't need a community council, if you do that it acts in the same way a union does;
No it would not - unions do not and should not own and control any workplace taken over by workers. Even in a situation of workers management and control, an independent trade union is vital to represent the interests of the workforce and individual workers. As I said above the relationship between a workplace and community council is dictated by necessity not out of some unnecessary desire to connect the two.


leaves out half of the people whom are home makers, unemployed, students etc..
Other people would not be excluded - I will pose it this way - what is the point of home makers discussing the production targets of a factory producing steering wheels for the automotive industry? Again cross community contact between councils will exist out of necessity not because it would be nice.


Councils are the best chance to build a great bond between the community and the workplace, to deny this is just irresponsible.
The purpose of soviets is as a vehicle for the working class to rule society, to plan and control a democratic economic strategy, not to engage in some altruistic bonding between factory and community.



I think how councils are organized beyond a local level is defined more by peoples tendency. From what i know most of the left support councils, but how those councils are organized can be disputed. To let council become a great tool for the working class we need them to be accepted by all of the left, From the Libertarians to the Authoritarians.
Again not the case - for a soviet to be effective it will need to meet the needs of the workers involved - it has nothing to do with accomodating different views on the left. To attempt to do so is a recipe for stagnation and impotence. How soviets are organised will be based on what is necessary and has nothing to do with disputes between various left organisations. As I said above, the working class will not tolerate sectarian infighting between left organisations and will not structure their councils to accomodate these organisations.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Has there ever been an instance in the US where worker's councils have been created? I am interested in applying theory to where I live, and it seems that workers' councils aren't as spontaneous here as they are elsewhere.

Yep. As was mentioned the St. Louis Commune (During the Great Upheaval of 1877), and others like the 1892 Homestead Strike and the 1919 General Strike in Seattle.

The potential for more have been there too, even recently, for example during the strikes in the mining areas of West Virginia, Virginia, Kentucky and Pennsylvania during the 70's and 80's.

[Devrim]

Finally, the closest thing that currently exists as examples of embryonic workers councils would be currently existing Trades Councils. However, again from evidence from Ireland (which I have more knowledge of than any other situation) in a revolutionary situation, existing Trades Councils can inhibit the development of genuine democratic workers councils. More conservative layers of workers can have a dominant position on existing Trades Councils and Marxists need to be conscious of the political composition of Trades Councils and the existing balance of forces, both in society generally and among the working class.

I would say that trades councils are nothing at all like workers' councils, and in a revolutionary situation would not only 'inhibit development' of workers' councils, but would be actively opposed to them.


Councils are not just work place councils but the joining of both community and workplace. This is how councils greatly differ from other forms of organizations like unions because it actively incorporates community and workplace.

On the general point of 'community' councils, one of the basic points about them is that, as opposed to the workers' council, they are not fundamentally class organs. The community even in mainly working class areas is always composed of a mixture of classes, particularly the petit bourgeoisie.

'Community' councils are not class organs in the same way that workers councils are.

Devrim

[Jolly Red Giant]

I would say that trades councils are nothing at all like workers' councils, and in a revolutionary situation would not only 'inhibit development' of workers' councils, but would be actively opposed to them.

Devrim - I did qualify the position with regards to current Trades Councils. I appreciate what you are saying but I think it would be inappropriate to dismiss out of hand a qualitative change in the nature of Trades Councils. We have no way of predicting how soviets will develop and it may be possible that some may be wrestled from union bureaucracies by revolutionary workers while others will not. I would agree that where ever the Trades Councils are not transformed they would actively oppose soviets, but in reality events will rush past them and leave them floundering in the wake of the revolutionary process.

[Die Neue Zeit]

It totally is. I live in the glorious Red State of Floridia and the local Publix is the center of our thriving anarcho-syndicalist commune. I heard they're even thinking of introducing self-checkouts, so some local retiree or Haitian immigrant doesn't have to be burdened by a degrading cashier job. Imagine all the unalienated creative self-development they'll have time for!

Please. It's just a f****** consumer co-op!


Yes. There was the St. Louis workers commune during the Great Labor Uprising of 1877. When various cities have been hit by general strikes, workers councils were set up to keep things running smoothly. These were city wide councils though, not factory councils.

But therein lies the problem of left strategy: "all power to workers councils" is an illusory road because it avoids dealing with much-needed bureaucracy.

[Devrim]

Devrim - I did qualify the position with regards to current Trades Councils.

Yes you did, and I quoted you as doing so.


I appreciate what you are saying but I think it would be inappropriate to dismiss out of hand a qualitative change in the nature of Trades Councils. We have no way of predicting how soviets will develop and it may be possible that some may be wrestled from union bureaucracies by revolutionary workers while others will not.

I don't think that this will at all be possible. Trades councils will not turn into Soviets. I think that those who try to work through them in periods of revolutionary struggle will ultimately end up providing left cover for organisation that would as you say 'actively oppose soviets'.

Devrim

[A.R.Amistad]

It totally is. I live in the glorious Red State of Floridia and the local Publix is the center of our thriving anarcho-syndicalist commune. I heard they're even thinking of introducing self-checkouts, so some local retiree or Haitian immigrant doesn't have to be burdened by a degrading cashier job. Imagine all the unalienated creative self-development they'll have time for!

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Uppercut]

There used to be a paper written by Sam Darcy called "How Soviet Democracy Worked in the 1930s" but revolutionary democracy.org is apparently down.

It basically states that meetings were held in places of work, schools, collective farms, etc. and that the selecting of candidates took place two weeks. Those who were selected as candidates would give a speech detailing why they should or should not be elected. This method was used for the direct election of all government bodies.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I don't think that this will at all be possible. Trades councils will not turn into Soviets. I think that those who try to work through them in periods of revolutionary struggle will ultimately end up providing left cover for organisation that would as you say 'actively oppose soviets'.


However, history has shown that Trades Councils have been converted into Soviets. For example in 1919 the Limerick United Trades and Labour Council (which was under the control of relatively conservative craft unions) was transformed into an organising Limerick Soviet committee literally overnight. Like clockwork, the workers of Limerick instinctively knew what had to be done and through the Soviet got on with the job.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I have added a new thread on the Limerick Soviets 1919-1922 on the history forum if anyone is interested.

[Lulznet]

How is a worker's council created? How do we plan to organize worker's councils and where do we start? Everyone seems to act as if they spring out of the ground.

When a union takes political control. Said worker's councils should be offshoot groups of the each other and not massive organizations. (I'm attempting to say that the worker's councils should be smaller groups due to the fact that the workers taking part in them can have their opinion represented easier.) They don't spring out of the ground... They spring out of the mind and then when they spring out of the mind, they tend to spring into the arms of men and women looking to make it a reality.

[A.R.Amistad]

They spring out of the mind and then when they spring out of the mind, they tend to spring into the arms of men and women looking to make it a reality. http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1775965)

Thats beautiful. Although I think social conditions play a role too, of course.

[JacobVardy]

What about contemporary soviets? The Good Government Juntas of the ELZN, the Popular Assembly of the Peoples of Oaxaca, or the Community Councils of Venezuela.

[JacobVardy]

'Community' councils are not class organs in the same way that workers councils are.
Devrim

Resident Action Groups, as possible embryonic councils, are a good example of this. RAGs can be radical but rarely entirely working class.