Is Venezuela's PSUV a real mass party?

[Die Neue Zeit]

With official membership figures of 7 million out of a total Venezuelan population of 27 million, is the Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela really a mass party?

I'm concerned not just with opportunism within the ranks (people joining to advance their careers or just to have a huge network of social support), but with membership drives for the so-called "primaries."

Is the official membership real, or is it like the fake "two-party" system in the United States that focuses so much on primaries and "registered voters" as being "party" members?

[RadioRaheem84]

Yes and no. From what I have read, there are many socialist within the rank and file, and many social democrat types in the leadership. I posted a link not too long ago on the PSUV convention and how the socialist base is looking to dominate the Party and push out the reformist elements.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Actually, my question was a legal question. I don't see the two big political organizations (72 million Dems and 55 million GOPers in 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_(United_States))) in the US as being genuine parties at all. All you have to do to be a "member" is register for either the primaries or the elections, and select which option on the ballot paper fits your "membership" requirement.

[REDSOX]

I believe the PSUV (United socialist party of venezuela) is a mass party consisting of workers, peasents, students, mass working class social organisations, etc but yes it also contains petit bourgeois/middle class elements within it, some of whom are in the leadership. The PSUV is not a marxist party as such but it has a lot of marxists in it as well as socialists, left social democrats, nationalists, and rightist social democrats so it is quite eclectic unlike say lenin's bolsheviks. The youth wing the JSPUV is particularly radically left wing and is influenced by marxism, guevaraism, leninism etc. Any marxist/guevaraist/revolutionary in venezuela worth his salt should enter the Psuv and try to move it even further to the left than it is so that it becomes a working class party controlled ultimately from below by workers and peasents. The party and the revolution in Venezuela must not be controlled by reformist rightists and nationalists.

[pranabjyoti]

It seems that PSUV isn't a monolithic party like a communist party. It's more like a platform than a solid party, but interested to see in which way it will go in future.

[REDSOX]

True it is not a monolithic stalinised party like the communist parties traditionally are and have been. The party has different trends and currents. It is a fairly democratic run party though far from perfect. There are constant tensions between the mostly bureaucratic leadership and the majority of the base and its youth wing but what would you expect!!

[El Rojo]

it is a mass party, i recently saw a sign up in Plaza Bolivar in Merida, every kind of person under the sun was joining. farmers, posh dress women (whom i glared at until i realised its the norm in venez) young folks ect. the diversity i have seen over and over again, not just in this one incident.

however, it is flawed. folks do join out of opportunism, there are people in govt possitions who are corrupt and or reformist. also, it does not have democratic cebntralism (unconfirmed) however, both ol hugo C and the grassroots are constantly trying to reduce corruption and rojo rojitas (peeps who talk red the back stab the revolution)

so, its an increasingly mass movement, id say

[pranabjyoti]

it is a mass party, i recently saw a sign up in Plaza Bolivar in Merida, every kind of person under the sun was joining. farmers, posh dress women (whom i glared at until i realised its the norm in venez) young folks ect. the diversity i have seen over and over again, not just in this one incident.

however, it is flawed. folks do join out of opportunism, there are people in govt possitions who are corrupt and or reformist. also, it does not have democratic cebntralism (unconfirmed) however, both ol hugo C and the grassroots are constantly trying to reduce corruption and rojo rojitas (peeps who talk red the back stab the revolution)

so, its an increasingly mass movement, id say
Well, it may be a mass movement, but how much it's a proletarian movement. Mass movements always have a very high chance of going into petty-bourgeoisie leadership and thus taken a wrong path and will eventually lead to capitalism.

[REDSOX]

Its an eclectic party. The proletariat are strong within it but there are petit bourgeois and opportunistic forces within it. Its too early to tell where the party is going politically revolutionary or reformist, all that will depend on the objective and subjective factors in venezuela and internationally.

[A.J.]

I believe the PSUV (United socialist party of venezuela) is a mass party consisting of workers, peasents, students, mass working class social organisations, etc but yes it also contains petit bourgeois/middle class elements within it, some of whom are in the leadership. The PSUV is not a marxist party as such but it has a lot of marxists in it as well as socialists, left social democrats, nationalists, and rightist social democrats so it is quite eclectic unlike say lenin's bolsheviks. The youth wing the JSPUV is particularly radically left wing and is influenced by marxism, guevaraism, leninism etc. Any marxist/guevaraist/revolutionary in venezuela worth his salt should enter the Psuv and try to move it even further to the left than it is so that it becomes a working class party controlled ultimately from below by workers and peasents. The party and the revolution in Venezuela must not be controlled by reformist rightists and nationalists.

Regardless of the PSUV's title, as well as the social composition of it's rank-and-file membership, it is objectively a bourgeois party. More specifically a party of the anti-imperialist section of the Venezuelan bourgeoisie due to the fact the revolution is still at the national democratic stage.

At the current juncture the PSUV should be supported, although not joined, until such time as the balance of forces have altered.

[vyborg]

the PSUV is a mass workers party. nobody can deny it (it has not really 7 millions members, maybe 2 or 2 and a half, still it is enormous for the country).
ideologically you cannot define it as it is in transition. there are many tendencies and the situation can change rapidly

[Spawn of Stalin]

From a Leninist perspective it certainly does not have 7 million members. But from what I've been told (admittedly, by a PSUV activist) people get involved as and when it suits them, I don't think a very large proportion of membership can be considered to be cadres, activists or even real members, but a great number of people are active in their communities when it comes to making local decisions. I don't know how much influence the rank and file have on internal party issues. To be honest I think it would be difficult to make a good analysis of the nature of the PSUV without actually being a member.

[el_chavista]

Indeed two and a half million psuvistas voted in the internal election for candidates to representatives. This is a much bigger militancy than all the other Venezuelan parties put together.

We use the term "electoral movement" to tell the difference between a mass party and a Leninist party. For instance, the PSUV militancy has been temporally reorganized in "electoral battle unities". As a "patrullero", my due is to contact 10 voters from the rest of the originally inscribed in the Party and other sympathizers. And so are 1,800,000 more "patrulleros", called by the national electoral command "Bolívar200".

[pranabjyoti]

Indeed two and a half million psuvistas voted in the internal election for candidates to representatives. This is a much bigger militancy than all the other Venezuelan parties put together.

We use the term "electoral movement" to tell the difference between a mass party and a Leninist party. For instance, the PSUV militancy has been temporally reorganized in "electoral battle unities". As a "patrullero", my due is to contact 10 voters from the rest of the originally inscribed in the Party and other sympathizers. And so are 1,800,000 more "patrulleros", called by the national electoral command "Bolívar200".
A mass party is mostly a petty-bourgeoisie party, the way it want to differentiate it from a "leninist (read it proletarian)" party, it is very much clear. Historically at some points of history, petty-bourgeoisie class may do some revolutionary progress, but ultimately either it will change to a "Leninist" party or become a partner of imperialism. I am curious to see what path PSUV will take in future. I AM VERY VERY MUCH SANGUINE THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN BETWEEN.

[Adi Shankara]

While President Hugo Chavez errs away from using labels to describe his political movement, he says it incorporates most of it's ideas from Trotskyism, yet considers himself a totally new form of Left-Marxism called "Socialism of the 21st Century", so much so that he wants to create a new tendency, the "Fifth International".

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=10538

The League for the Fifth International' (http://www.fifthinternational.org/)

Personally, I think he's one of the greatest hopes for socialism in the world today.

[Q]

While President Hugo Chavez errs away from using labels to describe his political movement, he says it incorporates most of it's ideas from Trotskyism, yet considers himself a totally new form of Left-Marxism called "Socialism of the 21st Century", so much so that he wants to create a new tendency, the "Fifth International".

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=10538

The League for the Fifth International' (http://www.fifthinternational.org/)

Personally, I think he's one of the greatest hopes for socialism in the world today.

The L5I is a Trotskyist sectlet that has been around for 30 years or so. Their biggest section, Workers Power, is in the UK and has about 60 or so members, or at least that was their size in 2006 after a split in which they lost 30 members which then formed Permanent Revolution (http://www.permanentrevolution.net/). The L5I and Chavez's initiative are unconnected as far as I can tell.

/spotterly mode

[Proletarian Ultra]

The L5I is a Trotskyist sectlet that has been around for 30 years or so. Their biggest section, Workers Power, is in the UK and has about 60 or so members, or at least that was their size in 2006 after a split in which they lost 30 member which then formed Permanent Revolution (http://www.permanentrevolution.net/). The L5I and Chavez's initiative are unconnected as far as I can tell.

/spotterly mode

Pretty sure L5I doesn't support Chavez. Why not? Pick one:
a) he is a state capitalist petty bourgeois nationalist faux-socialist popular-democratic left-Bonapartist etc. etc.
b) he totally stole their name and now everyone will be like "oh, so you're the Chavez thing?" and they'll be all like "shut up we had it first"

YOU MAKE THE CALL!!!

[Adi Shankara]

The L5I is a Trotskyist sectlet that has been around for 30 years or so. Their biggest section, Workers Power, is in the UK and has about 60 or so members, or at least that was their size in 2006 after a split in which they lost 30 members which then formed Permanent Revolution (http://www.permanentrevolution.net/). The L5I and Chavez's initiative are unconnected as far as I can tell.

/spotterly mode

My mistake, I don't really know anything beyond the 4th international; however, I just recall Hugo Chavez calling for a new International to be created specifically to fit Venezuela's needs.

[Adi Shankara]

Pretty sure L5I doesn't support Chavez. Why not? Pick one:
a) he is a state capitalist petty bourgeois nationalist faux-socialist popular-democratic left-Bonapartist etc. etc.
b) he totally stole their name and now everyone will be like "oh, so you're the Chavez thing?" and they'll be all like "shut up we had it first"

YOU MAKE THE CALL!!!

he isnt' State capitalist, nor faux socialist. he's something totally new and different; he uses resources to fund development projects directly, that employ people in state owned enterprises, which isn't capitalist, but since Venezuela is a democracy, it's socialist in it's own way.

either way, he has my approval, even if he isn't the most orthodox; afterall, Trotsky taught that all socialism will naturally progress to Communism irregardless.

[Q]

My mistake, I don't really know anything beyond the 4th international...

Given that you're in the SEP you probably refer to the International Committee of the Fourth International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Committee_of_the_Fourth_Internationa l), which is one of two distinct organisations that bears this name following the WRP (UK) explosion in the 1980's after Healy died.The pre-explosion ICFI started out in 1953 as a split from the Pabloite International Secretariat of the Fourth International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Secretariat_of_the_Fourth_Internatio nal) which since reforms in 2003 refers to itself simply as "Fourth International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_International_(Post-Reunification))".

Welcome to Trotskyism :D

[Adi Shankara]

Given that you're in the SEP you probably refer to the International Committee of the Fourth International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Committee_of_the_Fourth_Internationa l), which is one of two distinct organisations that bears this name following the WRP (UK) explosion in the 1980's after Healy died.The pre-explosion ICFI started out in 1953 as a split from the Pabloite International Secretariat of the Fourth International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Secretariat_of_the_Fourth_Internatio nal) which since reforms in 2003 refers to itself simply as "Fourth International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_International_%28Post-Reunification%29)".

Welcome to Trotskyism :D


wait--haven't they since reunified? Like I know there are many various Trotskyist tendencies, but I thought they originally reunified in the 60's, the International Secretariat and the International Committee

[vyborg]

A mass party is mostly a petty-bourgeoisie party,

not at all as the bulk of population in venezuela is made by proletarians

the politics can be petty bourgeois, but this is another story

[Adi Shankara]

not at all as the bulk of population in venezuela is made by prolearians

Vast majority are though--there is no middle class in Venezuela, and John Pilger estimates that between 70-80% of Venezuela falls under the category of "working poor".

[Q]

wait--haven't they since reunified?

Long story short: The ICFI was led from 1953 to 1963 by the American SWP, since 1963 the SWP reunited with the ISFI to form the USFI (united secretariat). The ICFI remained in existance however and was from then on led by Gerry Healy of the Workers Revolutionary Party in the UK. After Healy died there was a complete meltdown of the WRP and, consequently, the ICFI in which at some point there were five "internationals" having the name ICFI. Now just two remain in existance of which the SEP/WSWS' ICFI is the more widely known.

[Proletarian Ultra]

he isnt' State capitalist, nor faux socialist. he's something totally new and different; he uses resources to fund development projects directly, that employ people in state owned enterprises, which isn't capitalist, but since Venezuela is a democracy, it's socialist in it's own way.

either way, he has my approval, even if he isn't the most orthodox; afterall, Trotsky taught that all socialism will naturally progress to Communism irregardless.

I was just trying to string together all the ultra-left cheapshots I could think of. :lol:

[pranabjyoti]

not at all as the bulk of population in venezuela is made by proletarians

the politics can be petty bourgeois, but this is another story
Then I am curious to know why they differentiate between a "mass" party and a "Leninist" party.

[vyborg]

Then I am curious to know why they differentiate between a "mass" party and a "Leninist" party.

a leninist party is normaly, ie not during revolution, a vanguard party not a mass party