Loughgall eight planned to form rouge organisation?

[Universal Struggle]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/sep/29/northernireland1


the three men discussed procuring arms independently of the IRA and establishing a 'flying column' modelled on the old IRA's war with the British armed forces in 1918-1921. Their aim was to go on the offensive, destroying police stations and seizing territory to establish so-called 'liberated zones' inside Northern Ireland.


Lynagh, McKearney, the bulk of the IRA unit killed at Loughgall and McElwaine were becoming increasingly disillusioned with the republican movement's direction, and in particular the policies of Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams.


They had opposed Adams's move to drop Sinn Fein's policy of abstaining from the Republic of Ireland's parliament in 1986. They believed that resources were being reallocated to Sinn Fein at the IRA's expense. They wanted more weapons and larger-scale operations against the British Army and the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

What you make of this?

[iskrabronstein]

Sounds to me like an ill-fated attempt to apply Maoist revolutionary strategy to a social and political condition not ripe for it.

[We Shall Rise Again]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/sep/29/northernireland1


the three men discussed procuring arms independently of the IRA and establishing a 'flying column' modelled on the old IRA's war with the British armed forces in 1918-1921. Their aim was to go on the offensive, destroying police stations and seizing territory to establish so-called 'liberated zones' inside Northern Ireland.


Lynagh, McKearney, the bulk of the IRA unit killed at Loughgall and McElwaine were becoming increasingly disillusioned with the republican movement's direction, and in particular the policies of Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams.


They had opposed Adams's move to drop Sinn Fein's policy of abstaining from the Republic of Ireland's parliament in 1986. They believed that resources were being reallocated to Sinn Fein at the IRA's expense. They wanted more weapons and larger-scale operations against the British Army and the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

What you make of this?

Its quit well known here in republican circles.

There were scuffles at lynagh's funeral over who should give the oration.

[Universal Struggle]

Any nation being ruled by a foreign body has the right conditions for revolution.

Poor farmers could substitute for peasants and the workers in nationalist Areas would be counted on to strike and hide and supply the heroic Guerrillas.

I actually think it would of been highly succesfull

[Palingenisis]

Any nation being ruled by a foreign body has the right conditions for revolution.

Poor farmers could substitute for peasants and the workers in nationalist Areas would be counted on to strike and hide and supply the heroic Guerrillas.

I actually think it would of been highly succesfull

There is also speculation that Sean Savage, Daniel Mc Cann and Mairead Farrell were sent to their deaths by the Adams clique because of Daniel Mc Cann's opposition to them...He had been very close to Ivor Bell who was shamelessly forced out of the IRA by Adams.

[Palingenisis]

Sounds to me like an ill-fated attempt to apply Maoist revolutionary strategy to a social and political condition not ripe for it.

The point was more that the army should be free to do its thing and not be turned into a negoitating pawn of careerist politicans. Also there was the question of cosying up to elements in the Free State establishment. At the time things seemed a lot more complex but history has proven Jim Lynagh right.

Soldier of the People, he died so we may live.

[iskrabronstein]

Nonsense. That is frankly opportunist claptrap of the sort that gets good, brave comrades killed in pointless tit-for-tat violence. Ireland is a developed capitalist country, fully integrated with the forces of world and European capital. The organization of a single flying column to go out and commit political violence against the state is suicidal. Guerrilla warfare necessitates a division of fronts and forces in order to dilute the amount of available force that the state can bring to bear on insurgents - if these comrades had not been caught before their attacks, they would have been isolated and hunted down.

Maoist strategy has many good points, and like all Marxist military thought it relies on a clear understanding of the mass orientation of a revolutionary movement. Guerrilla movements are not the end-all, be-all of militant revolution in occupied countries - they can only succeed as the main component of a broader struggle, involving traditional labor movements and peasant organizations as well as the revolutionary cadre.

I don't disparage their bravery or commitment, but the launching of a guerrilla column without any kind of logistical or organizational support is suicidally dangerous. They knew the risks.

[We Shall Rise Again]

There is also speculation that Sean Savage, Daniel Mc Cann and Mairead Farrell were sent to their deaths by the Adams clique because of Daniel Mc Cann's opposition to them...He had been very close to Ivor Bell who was shamelessly forced out of the IRA by Adams.


Have heard this one, I hope it is not true.

Danny was put out of the IRA for his oposition to the leadership, but was allowed to rejoin some point before he died on active service.

[We Shall Rise Again]

Nonsense. That is frankly opportunist claptrap of the sort that gets good, brave comrades killed in pointless tit-for-tat violence. Ireland is a developed capitalist country, fully integrated with the forces of world and European capital. The organization of a single flying column to go out and commit political violence against the state is suicidal. Guerrilla warfare necessitates a division of fronts and forces in order to dilute the amount of available force that the state can bring to bear on insurgents - if these comrades had not been caught before their attacks, they would have been isolated and hunted down.

Maoist strategy has many good points, and like all Marxist military thought it relies on a clear understanding of the mass orientation of a revolutionary movement. Guerrilla movements are not the end-all, be-all of militant revolution in occupied countries - they can only succeed as the main component of a broader struggle, involving traditional labor movements and peasant organizations as well as the revolutionary cadre.

I don't disparage their bravery or commitment, but the launching of a guerrilla column without any kind of logistical or organizational support is suicidally dangerous. They knew the risks.

Francis Hughes and dominic Mcglinchey amongst others operated a very succesful independent flying column, which took the wa to the brits.

[Palingenisis]

Have heard this one, I hope it is not true.

.


I dont want it to be true mo chara...However Adams is I am convinced of it a psychopath so its in the range of the possible.

We lost three brave volunteers that day.

[We Shall Rise Again]

We lost three brave volunteers that day.

We sure did.

[iskrabronstein]

Francis Hughes and dominic Mcglinchey amonst others operated a very succesful independent flying column, which took the wa to the brits.

Tactical success and strategic success are two entirely different animals.

[Palingenisis]

Tactical success and strategic success are two entirely different animals.

The fact that the level armed resistance was able to be kept up for so long against the all the odds was a victory in itself.

[iskrabronstein]

The fact that the level armed resistance was able to be kept up for so long against the all the odds was a victory in itself.

Certainly so - but these piecemeal victories are not what we are fighting for. The IRA's success during the first Troubles was due to the unpredictability of its operations - operating in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, and all across the countryside. Their numbers were few, but because of their mobility and the effectiveness of the civilian organization of the Dail, they were able to produce a force projection that greatly overshadowed that of the British. This is the essence of the guerrilla struggle - the integration of the military and civilian arms of the revolution in order to make it impossible for the occupying government to function.

And so, we face a problem of strategic, not tactical orientation. I think that the flying column tactics in use are excellent, from my limited knowledge of them. But the disagreement lies in our strategic orientation - a single flying column, in a small territorial expanse, without extensive civilian logistical aid, is merely waiting to die.

If they want to fight like the Old IRA, fine. But remember what it was that made Collins and Barry and the rest of their fighters effective.

[We Shall Rise Again]

Their is no such thinng as the old IRA, its the same cause, the same goals.

old IRA is revisionism.

[iskrabronstein]

Semantics. In that case, the Irish Republican Army under the command of Michael Collins from 1919-22, before the split.

[Universal Struggle]

thats the point though, their organisation would of grown, expanding to many columns, all those who went on to join CIRA, RIRA, and all the provos who disagreed with the GF agreement would have joined.

Also, they would have been able to rely on the republican community to ferry arms food and munitions to them.

[We Shall Rise Again]

Semantics. In that case, the Irish Republican Army under the command of Michael Collins from 1919-22, before the split.

The IRA was not under collins command, it was under the auothority of Dáil Éireann, and answerable to the minister for defence, who was Cathal Brugha.

Collins was in command of the highly effective intellegence squad.

[iskrabronstein]

And Cathal Brugha hated Collins for usurping operational control, especially in Dublin, and because the IRA's decentralized nature necessarily meant that all real power was in the hands of the intelligence chief.

Are you going to answer my argument, or continue wandering down tangents?

[We Shall Rise Again]

I am not disputing what you have said on tactics, i meerly pointed to a time when an independent column was successful.

Armed struggle cannot be a success without the support of a large section of the proletariat