Animal rights

[Universal Struggle]

If i force a cat to have sex with another cat, am i an acomplice to rape?

If so... where does this leave dog breeders?

[The Vegan Marxist]

I would say so, though, there are some breeders that bring their pets together, & if nothing is done between them, then the little get-together is canceled. And this would go on & on until the dogs find who they're looking for. Though, if you go by the normal standard of how most dog-breeders go about, in which is forced breeding, then yes, when compared to how Man constitutes rape, it would be considered as such as well towards animals.

[x371322]

How exactly does one force a cat to fuck another one? Is there some kind of special machine I don't know about? :D (no really is there?)

Seriously though, I don't really know anything about breeding, but in my experience as an pet owner, you don't usually have to force anything. If you get two dogs of opposite sexes together, with the female in heat, the problem will be keeping them apart. I've even had one female dog who used to fuck our other female dog (who says homosexuality is unnatural?), and even our cat! A horny dog will quite literally fuck anything. Ever had a dog hump your leg? :laugh:

[Universal Struggle]

my dog only humps other boy dogs, it is exclusively gay, and i couldn't be more proud

[Obs]

That is awesome.

As for dog breeding, I'm pretty conflicted. On one hand, it's not consensual, but on the other, I'm hard pressed to see where the dogs suffer from it. Besides, it's not like dogs consciously decide to have offspring - I doubt they're aware of the link between sex and pregnancy.

[vampire squid]

animals don't have "rights" as such, but wanton cruelty to animals should be prohibited just because it often doesnt stop there.

[Obs]

animals don't have "rights" as such, but wanton cruelty to animals should be prohibited just because it often doesnt stop there.
If animals don't have rights, then humans don't have rights.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Most species only care about the wellbeing of its own kind, why should we be any different?

[the last donut of the night]

If animals don't have rights, then humans don't have rights.

By that logic, then if trees don't have rights, then humans don't have rights!

All Solidarity Toward Tree Liberation!

Freedom from the Oppressive Canopy Class!

An Injury to a Root is an Injury to the Trunk!

http://stephenwhitt.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/tree.jpg

:rolleyes:

[Obs]

Most species only care about the wellbeing of its own kind, why should we be any different?
Because we have the intellect to know that other species feel both pain, fear and distress.


By that logic, then if trees don't have rights, then humans don't have rights!

All Solidarity Toward Tree Liberation!

Freedom from the Oppressive Canopy Class!

An Injury to a Root is an Injury to the Trunk!

http://stephenwhitt.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/tree.jpg

:rolleyes:
Are you denying that humans are animals?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Most species only care about the wellbeing of its own kind, why should we be any different?

Funny how you departure "we" away from "most species only care about the wellbeing of its own kind". Like "we" are not part of those species. :rolleyes:

This is a very black & white view of how animals, in which "man" is a type of animal, view other animals. The fact that you have to say the word "most" just shows that there's some contradictory distinction between those who do cooperate with other animals, & those who don't, in which this also applies to man as well. It's all an act out of the environmental conditions that one is brought up in. This applies to both man & animal - let's just say animals.

[The Vegan Marxist]

my dog only humps other boy dogs, it is exclusively gay, and i couldn't be more proud

haha, my dogs are the same way. Both guy dogs & love each other very much from what it seems. I love my dogs & couldn't be more proud either.

[the last donut of the night]

Are you denying that humans are animals?

No. Are you denying the legitimacy of arboreal liberation movements?

[Obs]

No. Are you denying the legitimacy of arboreal liberation movements?

If you can prove to me that trees feel pain and distress, then you can bet I'm gonna support arboreal liberation.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

my dog only humps other boy dogs, it is exclusively gay, and i couldn't be more proud

Legally Blonde 2!
I loved that movie!

[Mindtoaster]

If you can prove to me that trees feel pain and distress, then you can bet I'm gonna support arboreal liberation.

So you would willingly starve yourself to death if plants were capable of a certain type of stimulus response?

[Obs]

So you would willingly starve yourself to death if plants were capable of a certain type of stimulus response?
No. I eat meat. I just believe that animals are entitled to some basic rights, such as being treated at least without cruelty, and perhaps even with a bit of dignity.

Let's say, however, for the sake of argument, that I was a vegetarian or a vegan. What relevance would your argument have in that case?

[Proletarian Ultra]

Dog breeding is a petty bourgeois activity and is based on reactionary eugenic ideology. Rights don't even enter into it: fuck dog breeding.

I'm convinced that cruelty to animals is inherently reactionary. For one thing it's characteristic of backwards peasant culture. For another thing, bad conditions for animals invariably means bad conditions for workers. E.g. the poultry industry (http://exiledonline.com/alabama-murder-mystery-solved-the-shocking-story-of-how-a-chicken-slaughtering-billionaire-plundered-rural-america/), to start with.

I remember once I was in Athens and walked by a closed pet store. Through the dirty windows you could see a cage full of Persian cats. It looked like they hadn't been tended to for days; their hair was filthy and there was crusty shit all under their eyes, I guess from a combination of eye infection due to filthy conditions and not producing enough tears due to lack of clean drinking water. I wasn't even consciously socialist at the time, but I remember "FUCK THIS WHOLE ECONOMIC SYSTEM" was the first thing entered into my head.

Consider also animal hoarders. It's the kind of lonely social pathology that inevitably follows in the wake of capitalist atomization of society. And an effective spaying and neutering campaign really isn't possible without the mass-line mobilization that only a socialized society can do.

I don't really go for the discourse of animal rights, but cruel treatment of animals has to be abolished under socialism.

[Yazman]

my dog only humps other boy dogs, it is exclusively gay, and i couldn't be more proud

It isn't actually a sexual act though. You have to understand that dogs use that physical action in a non-sexual way as a way of asserting dominance over other dogs. They DO also do it when they have sexual urges, but the two are not the same. Female dogs actually 'hump' other female dogs and even male dogs when they are trying to assert dominance. Dogs have many unique behaviours because well, they are dogs. It is just very easy for us to anthropomorphise them because we keep them as pets.

Also to Jacobin of Tomorrow - how is dog breeding based on any sort of 'reactionary eugenics ideology'? I don't really agree with the practices of dog breeders but there isn't really any ideological motive. It is about getting dogs to look the way you want them to look, on a very basic level. The dog breeders I've met (2-3) either want to make money or just really love dogs.

I don't know what basis you have for claiming there is some sort of ideological basis for it though. I don't think there is one, really.

[The Vegan Marxist]

It isn't actually a sexual act though. You have to understand that dogs use that physical action in a non-sexual way as a way of asserting dominance over other dogs. They DO also do it when they have sexual urges, but the two are not the same. Female dogs actually 'hump' other female dogs and even male dogs when they are trying to assert dominance.

Don't humans do this too, though? It's called rape.

Plus, there's other signs that the actions they bring to each other is out of "love" or a likening for one another. My dogs have actually protected each other from dangers, always sleep together, you can tell one gets jealous from the other when one of them shows more attention to of our family members & try pushing the other way so that one of us can pet them or rub their bellies too lol. It's quite humorous, but also enlightening to see such human-like actions within dogs as well.

[x371322]

It isn't actually a sexual act though. You have to understand that dogs use that physical action in a non-sexual way as a way of asserting dominance over other dogs.

I never knew this. Certainly explains why my dog did this to the cat (which was funny as hell by the way). This'll be my fun fact for the day.

[Yazman]

Don't humans do this too, though? It's called rape.

Clearly you failed to understand. When a dog does it to another dog they do not care about the gender of the dog or even what species it is, they are just asserting dominance. They aren't "trying to have sex with" the other dog (or cat, etc). It is NOT a sexual act, and is not comparable to rape (which IS a sexual act) in any way, shape, or form.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Clearly you failed to understand. When a dog does it to another dog they do not care about the gender of the dog or even what species it is, they are just asserting dominance. They aren't "trying to have sex with" the other dog (or cat, etc). It is NOT a sexual act, and is not comparable to rape (which IS a sexual act) in any way, shape, or form.

You have any science to back this up?

[Yazman]

You have any science to back this up?

I do have a few books on dog psychology, yes. You're welcome to them if you want to track them down - I am happy to provide references.

If you do a cursory search on google you can turn up various veterinary sources that back it up though:

http://www.vetinfo.com/dhump.html

There are several possible explanations for this behavioral change. Mounting behaviors occur due to sexual hormone influences, dominance behavior, anxiety, and sometimes as a sort of obsessive/compulsive disorder.

Since there is are two new pets in the household, your dog may just be attempting to show dominance over it, not really recognizing that the cat probably has no clue what that sort of behavior means but that it is natural in the relationship with the new puppy. This sort of behavior will often settle down rapidly once the cat objects sufficiently and the puppy gives in and shows acceptance of a subordinate status. That isn't always the case, but there is at least some chance for it.


http://www.petplace.com/dogs/humping/page1.aspx

Although humping is considered a sexual action, it can also be used to signal power and rank. Dogs do, in effect, employ humping as a way of asserting authority.

Intact (unneutered) male dogs are most likely to engage in this disturbing behavior but neutered males and females may also express the behavior. The presence of sex hormones facilitates but does not dictate this annoying behavior.

But sexual motivation is not the whole story because inexperienced neutered males and some females hump as well. The conclusion must be that mounting behavior ("humping") is genetically encoded in both sexes and may be activated by not only testosterone but also by other natural forces.


http://ezinearticles.com/?Dog-Dominance-Behavior-%96-Dog-Humping-and-Dog-Mounting-Problems&id=339664

Among the many dog dominance behaviors, those surrounded by perhaps more myths than any others are dog mounting problems and dog humping women. No, contrary to popular opinion, these obnoxious dog instinctive behaviors have absolutely nothing to do with sex. How embarrassing, though, for those who do not know this!
"Don't worry," I said to a client who was bright red as he observed his male pup trying to mount mine. Visibly, the client wanted to dig a hole and hide. He was mortified! His dog aggressively continued in his attempts at dog mounting and dog humping on mine, especially going for the head. (My good-natured, large dog easily shook him off.)
"I didn't know my dog was queer," he said very sheepishly and apologetically. I could not contain my laughter as I reassured the man that it was not so. How common is that misconception? In the dog world, there is no such thing as a "gay dog!"
One dog mounting over another one's head, or even unsheathing his penis, is fairly common. The mounting dog is seriously trying to seize control over all others. The unsheathing is to release his scent on the other dog, to proclaim to all the others that he won the battle over this one.
Think about this fact: If a male dog mounts a female for mating purposes, his equipment does not miss its target. He does not fail to put it in the right place. If his intentions toward another male dog were sexual, it would be done. Note that his aim, when riding up from behind the other dog, is OVER the tail and back, not under the tail. That is NOT sexual! Riding up on another dog's back raises the first dog above him. It is a reminder that, "Hey, you're not the boss here!"
When the dog mounts another one's head, he is going to one of the most extreme displays of dominance in the dog world. The head is the highest part of the dog. Bringing the head down brings the dog down from his highest point. It is all about who is higher than whom.
When a dog unsheathes his penis and releases liquid, that forces the dog who is leaked on to wear the scent of the dominant one. It is a very potent scent and stays for some time, making the low rank obvious for many miles -- and even to other packs within scent range.
Dogs constantly try to dominate each other. That is dog instinctive behavior, among the rituals they go through every time they meet each other. The dogs will first size each other up through eye contact. If one surrenders by lying down, then leadership is settled. If not, the wrestle for dominance truly begins.
As they wrestle for the dominant dog position, the dogs continue to mount each other until one rolls over submissively and turns his eyes away. Until the eyes have completely turned away, surrender has not happened, and the dog who is losing may try a sneak attack against the other. Look out!
We homo sapiens usually prefer the challenge of a game such as "rock-paper-scissors," a mind game like chess or Scrabble, or a socially acceptable ball game. It is less embarrassing to the public eye.
You have sometimes seen dog fights break out as the dogs jockey for position, through wrestling or stare-down dares. Normally, however, one dog raises his head higher than the other, and the one with the lower head surrenders.
Clearly, this is an instinctive dog behavior, a ritual dogs often go through. I recommend to all who are interested to question experts and to study this dog dominance behavior for themselves. Dog humping women and dog mounting problems have nothing to do with sex, and they CAN be solved. Remember, there is no such thing as a "GAY DOG!"




http://www.sarahsdogs.com/qa/why_do_dogs_hump.html

The humping behavior is to show dominance over other dogs. This is the reason why male dogs can be seen humping another male dog. In primitive dogs, the dominant male is the only one allowed to breed females. Dog will only allow being mounted by dogs it considers to be higher in rank. We know that dogs are affectionate and loving creatures. Some would form a strong bond with the whole family while others would be devoted to a single person. Dogs hump people because they think people are members of their pack. A dog mounting your leg is telling you that he is dominant and that he occupies a higher position in the pack than you. Of course this should never be allowed. The dog should be made to understand that the human is higher in rank, that the human is the alpha male. A dog allowed to think otherwise will be one stubborn and hard to control dog.


As you can see, and in addition to the books I've got that agree with the above sources (and were written by vets), it CAN be a sexual behaviour but often is NOT, and isn't a sexual act at all, but is merely a SOCIAL act that is used for dogs to establish a hierarchy within what they perceive to be their pack. In a household setting dogs perceive all the humans and other pets as part of a 'pack', and so they naturally establish a 'pecking order' of sorts. Thats why they will do this to cats. Its also why females will do it, and why neutered dogs of both sexes do it.

[Kyrite]

By that logic, then if trees don't have rights, then humans don't have rights!

All Solidarity Toward Tree Liberation!

Freedom from the Oppressive Canopy Class!

An Injury to a Root is an Injury to the Trunk!

http://stephenwhitt.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/tree.jpg

:rolleyes:

These arguments are ridiculous. A tree is not capable of experiencing pain, nor is it capable of experiencing panic and grief as it is locked onto a conveyor belt leading to a razor sharp blade. I'm not sure what you are trying to say by using this argument. Are you trying to say that animals do not feel suffering or are you trying to say that trees do?

[Universal Struggle]

Actually yazman you are wrong, every species has its gay community, i read a book on it a year ago, i forget the name but if you type gay animal in you should find it.

It shows panda'sand gorrila's and all sorts, doing 69ers etc and only mating with males, only being aroused by other males.

There were some freaky positions illustrated that they did, was like an animal karma sutra

[ZeroNowhere]

If animals don't have rights, then humans don't have rights.You must be using the word 'rights' in some as yet unheard of manner, then.

[Kyrite]

Actually yazman you are wrong, every species has its gay community, i read a book on it a year ago, i forget the name but if you type gay animal in you should find it.

It shows panda'sand gorrila's and all sorts, doing 69ers etc and only mating with males, only being aroused by other males.

There were some freaky positions illustrated that they did, was like an animal karma sutra

Didn't Ricky Gervais use it in his stand up about animals? I remember seeing a picture of some hedgehogs 69ing. Bit weird.

[Revy]

If i force a cat to have sex with another cat, am i an acomplice to rape?

If so... where does this leave dog breeders?

I think the legal concept of "rape" only applies to humans. Of course, the word still applies. But I think someone who rapes an animal will be charged with animal cruelty, in addition to bestiality.

As for animals being forced to have sex with other animals, I'm not sure I've heard of this being done, but it does sound like animal cruelty.

I think the practice of dog breeding is wrong considering how many animals are left in shelters that get euthanized.

[Tablo]

Fuck non homo-sapien animals and fuck fascists. I consider myself an environmentalist as far as wanting the continuation of the human species. I couldn't care less about any animals or the environment beyond that. Am I a speciest? I would say yes. I understand the emotion put into the radical environmentalist movement, but I strongly disagree with their motives. I stand strongly on the side of the working class and couldn't care less about a bunch of fucking animals. Human life is of much more value than that of less evolved species.

In short, FUCK ANIMAL RIGHTS!!!

[Proletarian Ultra]

Fuck non homo-sapien animals and fuck fascists. I consider myself an environmentalist as far as wanting the continuation of the human species. I couldn't care less about any animals or the environment beyond that. Am I a speciest? I would say yes. I understand the emotion put into the radical environmentalist movement, but I strongly disagree with their motives. I stand strongly on the side of the working class and couldn't care less about a bunch of fucking animals. Human life is of much more value than that of less evolved species.

In short, FUCK ANIMAL RIGHTS!!!

Are there any hog farms or poultry processing facilities near where you are in Alabama? You know what it's like to work in or live near one.

Improvement in working conditions there are going to lead to improved conditions for the animals in terms of ventilation, hygiene, etc. The way farm animals are treated needs to be changed precisely because it is bad to workers.

[Kyrite]

Are there any hog farms or poultry processing facilities near where you are in Alabama? You know what it's like to work in or live near one.

Improvement in working conditions there are going to lead to improved conditions for the animals in terms of ventilation, hygiene, etc. The way farm animals are treated needs to be changed precisely because it is bad to workers.

I couldn't agree more. By improving the environment for the animals you are also improving the conditions for the humans. I would suggest to anyone who disagrees to go and watch a few hidden camera documentaries about slaughter houses.

[the last donut of the night]

Lol at every thing here, but seriously.

I've found that the whole preoccupation with animal liberation is mostly a middle-class, urban liberal hobby. Why? It's because workers in general don't have much time for politics that aren't about their own liberation: why care about poor cows when many can't pay their own rent?

When humans become free, then I'll start thinking about animals.

[Yazman]

Actually yazman you are wrong, every species has its gay community, i read a book on it a year ago, i forget the name but if you type gay animal in you should find it.

It shows panda'sand gorrila's and all sorts, doing 69ers etc and only mating with males, only being aroused by other males.

There were some freaky positions illustrated that they did, was like an animal karma sutra

No, actually I am NOT wrong. I am correct and I've already shown it to be correct. What I am talking about is the social act of 'humping' and how it is very often just a social act and in no way sexual.

I did not say anything about homosexual activity within animals, nor did I say it never happens. On the particular topic I am discussing, I am not incorrect. I have already shown what I said to be supported by evidence and cited sources as such.

I was never talking about mating. YOU were talking about a completely different act - the act of mating. But when dogs 'hump' each other they often aren't trying to mate. I've ALREADY SHOWN THIS and its well known in dog psychology.

[Saorsa]

Animals don't have rights.

Seriously, if it's impossible for them to be conscious agents of their own liberation, how can they be said to have 'rights'? We can put in place guidelines for how humans should and should not treat animals, but they don't have 'rights'.

[Obs]

Animals don't have rights.

Seriously, if it's impossible for them to be conscious agents of their own liberation, how can they be said to have 'rights'? We can put in place guidelines for how humans should and should not treat animals, but they don't have 'rights'.
By that same logic, children can't have rights, either.

[GreenCommunism]

plants have rights too by the way, i worked on construction for a very small time and they made sure not to destroy vegetation around. i am not sure they could have been sued or any sort of crap like that. but people realize it is dumb to pointlessly destroy vegetation, so why wouldn't they realize that pointlessly hurting animals is wrong. also we have no excuse for eating meat other than it is good and lack of discipline. it isn't even that hard according to what i've heard. and vegetarian meals can be quite tasty.

[Saorsa]

By that same logic, children can't have rights, either.

wut

No. Children (older children anyway, and depending on how you define 'child') can be conscious of injustice, oppression and the denial of their fundamental rights. And they can take part in movements to challenge this. What's more, children turn into adults and hopefully become more intelligent in the process - animals stay animals and never have even the slightest possibility of understanding the concept of oppression.

Also, children are young humans. We are humans. We look after our young like any other animal, and don't tend to kill and eat them. We have no such obligation towards other species.

[Saorsa]

plants have rights too by the way, i worked on construction for a very small time and they made sure not to destroy vegetation around. i am not sure they could have been sued or any sort of crap like that.

That's not because plants have rights. That's because humans don't want to live in a society where the environment is getting destroyed, making our lives as humans unpleasant.

[GreenCommunism]

yes i'm retarded for writing that my bad. i just mean that people don't want to live in an environment where animals are mistreated without purpose. you may argue that plants and environment matters more since we don't want to live in a ugly world. but farmers usually like their cows and call them nice names. problem is the next second they are tazing them.

[Saorsa]

yes i'm retarded for writing that my bad

You're not retarded...

[Tablo]

Are there any hog farms or poultry processing facilities near where you are in Alabama? You know what it's like to work in or live near one.

Improvement in working conditions there are going to lead to improved conditions for the animals in terms of ventilation, hygiene, etc. The way farm animals are treated needs to be changed precisely because it is bad to workers.
There aren't any of those close enough that I see them on a daily basis. My father spent his childhood working on one of those farms and I do see them often enough. I would hope an improvement in living conditions for the animals as they are our food, but my love for animals is strictly limited to the love of eating a good steak. It is fine for people to have love for their pets, but in the long run humans are of much greater value to me and the vast majority of humanity.

[Steve_j]

It seems the whole animal rights thing has been a hot topic lately, whilst i want to live in a society where we dont kill or abuse other animals for pleasure, tradition, dietry preference and so on, i do find the term rights and the application to animals a sticky point.

The arguments that animals are not conscious in the manner we are, dont have the ability to reason or do not have the intelligence or capacity that we have, does not sit well with me because by that same logic it would mean that some humans cant have "rights"

Im not saying i rank animals and humans as equal, but what would be the logical fallacy in granting animals "rights" so to speak, in regards to freedom from unnecessary harm and slaughter? I am still yet to see any strong points against this (maybe i have missed some)

I know unnecessary is a debate in itself but i just simply want hear peoples reasonings in regards to why animals cant have "rights".

Thoughts?

[Saorsa]

The arguments that animals are not conscious in the manner we are, dont have the ability to reason or do not have the intelligence or capacity that we have, does not sit well with me because by that same logic it would mean that some humans cant have "rights"

No. The point is that humans are capable of being conscious of their rights. Even if someone is completely paralysed and braindead from birth, they are still a human being part of a species of creatures with the ability to be conscious and the potential to be conscious.

It is impossible for animals to articulate the fact that they have rights. Therefore, in my opinion, they don't.

[Steve_j]

No. The point is that humans are capable of being conscious of their rights. Even if someone is completely paralysed and braindead from birth, they are still a human being part of a species of creatures with the ability to be conscious and the potential to be conscious.

So because they are of the same species as us and not because they as individuals, can or have the potential to articulate/concieve the concept of rights means they qualify for rights?

[Saorsa]

So because they are of the same species as us and not because they as individuals, can or have the potential to articulate/concieve the concept of rights means they qualify for rights?

Basically, yeah. It is possible for a human being to discuss the rights of man - it is not possible for a cow to talk about bovine rights. No cow anywhere on the planet can do that.

[Steve_j]

Ok, well that doesnt really work for me either as i find it contrdictory, im a little uneasy about applying logic to one situation then going against it simply because they are of the same species. Wouldnt it be better to adopt a more consitant approach?

Edit, been thinking a little more, we are sort of talking about animal rights and human rights as one in the same, animal rights would no doubt be rights for animals (well non human ones) so why cant we as humans apply rights to animals in regards to limiting our own behaviour, much like one aspect of human rights, i know its a one way street (unlike human rights) but i still dont see that as a reason against it?

[Saorsa]

But it's totally consistent. I apply different logic and different analysis when it comes to animals than when it comes humans (yes we're an animal too but everyone knows what I mean).

If you think it's ok to kill and eat an animal, then you don't think they have the most basic right of all - the right to live. How can they have 'rights' if it isn't wrong to kill them?

[Steve_j]

I apply different logic and different analysis when it comes to animals than when it comes humans (yes we're an animal too but everyone knows what I mean).

Yeah i get you there, see my edit in the above post. Didnt see yours when i wrote it.



If you think it's ok to kill and eat an animal, then you don't think they have the most basic right of all - the right to live. How can they have 'rights' if it isn't wrong to kill them?

Just because someone thinks its ok to kill other people doesnt mean the victim doesnt have rights, brings up an interesting point though, rights are only given value/meaning through general consensus so thats kinda leading me to the conclusion that animals can have rights.

[Steve_j]

Interesting... ecuador seems to think animals can have rights, and so can tree's and so on

http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbeyond/2008/09/ecuador_grants_rights_to_natur.html