is zionism a racist or fascist ideology?

[freepalestine]

is zionism a racist or fascistic ideology?

[danyboy27]

is zionism a racist or fascistic ideology?

no more than any other form of nationalism.

[freepalestine]

what other forms of nationalism ?

[durhamleft]

I don't think they're fascist in the true sense but they CERTAINLY are racist and an absolutely despicable nation;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5wE-H7-7PU

[Jimmie Higgins]

is zionism a racist or fascistic ideology?I think you'd have to say that Zionism is Zionism - it has it's own right and left wing and political history and tradditions. The ideology (pre Israel) has its roots in 19th century nationalism but with the founding of modern Israel it has functioned as the justification for a settler-state (one that is also connected to and dependent on Imperialist powers - first Great Britain and then the US).

I think the closer historical parallel would be Apartheid South Africa - although it is still much different because Israel does not rely on Palestinian labor like South Africa relied on the oppressed black population.

Zionism is very much racist and in practice in Israel, from what I've read, there are even ethnic inequalities among the Jewish population. The racism against Arabs and Palestinians goes without saying.

[mosfeld]

no more than any other form of nationalism.

Do you think Palestinian nationalism is as fascist and racist as Zionism?

[freepalestine]

Do you think Palestinian nationalism is as fascist and racist as Zionism?do you?and if so why ?or not?

[Tavarisch_Mike]

I think the closer historical parallel would be Apartheid South Africa - although it is still much different because Israel does not rely on Palestinian labor like South Africa relied on the oppressed black population.

Zionism is very much racist and in practice in Israel, from what I've read, there are even ethnic inequalities among the Jewish population. The racism against Arabs and Palestinians goes without saying.

About the parralel to apartheid i just must say that many palestinians work in Israel under terrible conditions. A couple of years ago there was a raport here in Sweden about a swedish company that had a factory in israel where palestines had a much shittier enviorment then the average israelian worker had (ofcourse we cant forget the situation and the struggle of the israelian workers eighter) just because they where palestines.

[danyboy27]

what other forms of nationalism ?

canadian nationalism, american nationalism, etc.

[danyboy27]

Do you think Palestinian nationalism is as fascist and racist as Zionism?

the intensity of discrimination in a nationalist regime always vary.

but no, they are not a match on that field, has far has i know.

[Jimmie Higgins]

About the parralel to apartheid i just must say that many palestinians work in Israel under terrible conditions. A couple of years ago there was a raport here in Sweden about a swedish company that had a factory in israel where palestines had a much shittier enviorment then the average israelian worker had (ofcourse we cant forget the situation and the struggle of the israelian workers eighter) just because they where palestines.

Very true. I think guest-workers from other countries in the region are brought in too. I did not mean to suggest that Israel doesn't use Palestinian labor, just that Israel is not dependent on Palestinian labor like the South African regime was on black labor. The oppression and segregation in South Africa was in part to control labor and so while it was very oppressive there were no calls for transfer or the destruction of the black population like there is in Israel for the Palestinian population.

[syndicat]

the founding of USA has certain similarities. the British settlers and companies that were formed to run colonies did not envision using indigenous labor, but trying to push the American Indians away, and as the settler state got stronger, using forced transfer to other, less favorable areas. this differed from the early Spanish colonial strategy in the Americas, which tried to use the indigenous as forced labor. but racism was developed to justify these practices (as well as to justify use of African slave labor).

[bricolage]

There have been Zionist tendencies that could probably be described as fascist;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Maximalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach_and_Kahane_Chai

But no, Zionism on its own is not fascist. Fascism is a very specific term and not just one that can be thrown about.

[FriendlyLocalViking]

If you still think that Zionism exists, you're an idiot. Israel's actions are simply nationalistic. To call it Zionism just because a percentage of Israelis are Jews is bordering on racism.

Zionism didn't survive the transition from the nineteenth to the twentieth centuries. It DEFINITELY didn't survive into the twenty-first.

[freepalestine]

If you still think that Zionism exists, you're an idiot. Israel's actions are simply nationalistic. To call it Zionism just because a percentage of Israelis are Jews is bordering on racism.

Zionism didn't survive the transition from the nineteenth to the twentieth centuries. It DEFINITELY didn't survive into the twenty-first.yeh quite right

[FriendlyLocalViking]

yeh quite right

You're the last person I expected to agree with this.

You're the one who threw the word Zionism around in the first place!

[vampire squid]

zionism as an ideology might be past its expiration date, but that's entirely besides the point. the zionist project is still alive, in the form of israel

[FriendlyLocalViking]

zionism as an ideology might be past its expiration date, but that's entirely besides the point. the zionist project is still alive, in the form of israel

Explain your thinking here.

How are Israelis Zionist?

[durhamleft]

Explain your thinking here.

How are Israelis Zionist?

Surely the principle of zionism is that there should be a homeland for Jews.

Surely Israel is this homeland.

[FriendlyLocalViking]

Surely the principle of zionism is that there should be a homeland for Jews.

Surely Israel is this homeland.

Okay, that explains what actual Zionists are about. Now what about Israel itself? It's not zionist. Nationalistic, yes. Zionist? I highly doubt it. If it were Zionist, it'd be trying to bring all the world's Jews to live there, and I haven't seen it try that since the sixties.

[durhamleft]

Okay, that explains what actual Zionists are about. Now what about Israel itself? It's not zionist. Nationalistic, yes. Zionist? I highly doubt it. If it were Zionist, it'd be trying to bring all the world's Jews to live there, and I haven't seen it try that since the sixties.

Well the vid i posted ^ says otherwise.

[vampire squid]

How are Israelis Zionist?
eh? they legally reside in and work and pay taxes to the zionist state. they serve in the zionist armed forces. functionally, they are zionist

[28350]

eh? they legally reside in and work and pay taxes to the zionist state. they serve in the zionist armed forces. functionally, they are zionist

So all Americans support the US?

[vampire squid]

yes?

[danyboy27]

eh? they legally reside in and work and pay taxes to the zionist state. they serve in the zionist armed forces. functionally, they are zionist


do you think all those people you describe has zionist should die?

[Boboulas]

Surely the principle of zionism is that there should be a homeland for Jews.

Surely Israel is this homeland.

A homeland isnt necessarily a state.

This was the 1945 change to the zionist goal. It went from establishing a jewish home land, then changed to establishing a jewish state in 1945.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

Zionism without doubt is racism. However, considering how Jews were and to some extent are treated in Europe and North America, I think that the overall existence of Israel is worth it. However, I do think that they need to let Gaza go for their own sake and they need to cut their nationalistic crap and come up with a peace treaty that the majority can be happy with... But, one has to admit that with the way that nations like Iran are acting, that they too are apart of the violence...

[InuyashaKnight]

From what i see; yes it is.

[freepalestine]

canadian nationalism, american nationalism, etc.how does that 'nationalism'affect you as a canadian/american?

do you think all those people you describe has zionist should die?what kind of question is that to ask him?get real ,silly.


If you still think that Zionism exists, you're an idiot. Israel's actions are simply nationalistic. To call it Zionism just because a percentage of Israelis are Jews is bordering on racism.

Zionism didn't survive the transition from the nineteenth to the twentieth centuries. It DEFINITELY didn't survive into the twenty-first.so you are claiming that zionists in "isreal"who consider themselves zionists,and those that don't and those that consider themselves anti-zionists ,are some how racists?
zionism lives on today my friend


You're the last person I expected to agree with this.

You're the one who threw the word Zionism around in the first place!as a palestinian ,i must apologise for creating the word zionism on this thread.

[mosfeld]

Okay, that explains what actual Zionists are about. Now what about Israel itself? It's not zionist. Nationalistic, yes. Zionist? I highly doubt it. If it were Zionist, it'd be trying to bring all the world's Jews to live there, and I haven't seen it try that since the sixties. The Zionist entity is doing exactly that. A recent example would be this. (http://monkeysmashesheaven.wordpress.com/2010/05/22/zionism-recruits-indian-“jews”-as-settlers/)


do you?and if so why ?or not? I don't, I think Palestinian Nationalism is a natural response to Israeli tyranny and oppression.


However, considering how Jews were and to some extent are treated in Europe and North America, I think that the overall existence of Israel is worth it. Why do you consider Palestinians so sub-human that they should pay for the crimes of Europeans and North Americans? Why should Palestinians be wiped out of their homeland for some fucked up colonialist and genocidal Zionist wet dream? If the Europeans and North Americans really felt bad they'd make way for a Jewish homeland in their own territory.

[Dimentio]

is zionism a racist or fascistic ideology?

It isn't fascist, since it isn't openly hostile to progressive movements like labour unions and socialist movements (just for them representing the working class) while at the same time trying to co-opting their ideas. It is obviously racist though, since it is about giving one ethnic group better access to the resources of one particular region at the expense of the indigenous inhabitants.

[Jimmie Higgins]

So all Americans support the US?No and not all jewish Israelis are zionists. However there is a material difference between so-called Zionism in Israel and regular imperilaism in the US or Europe or China or whatever.

The working class in imperialist countries gets worse-off as their nation grows in power - the have a more powerful class enemy to face; a more powerful military backing the ruling class; more repressive abilities for the RC; more economic choices for business - they can go oversees if local labor has won too many reforms and so on.

Israel is a settler-state, so like the early US (between native Americans and European settlers) it would be difficult to build class solidarity between Palestinians and working class Israelis. In Israel a certain portion of the population is directly benefiting from the oppression of Palestinians: settlers are so bloodthirsty and crazy and right-wing because they actual gain from destroying the crops and homes of people in the occupied territories. Israel's role as enforcer in the middle east for US imperialism means that the military economic burden does not have to be paid through taxes - freeing up capital for development and taxes for social spending.

It's a similar pattern to the early US social settlement arrangement: the US claimed a lot of land but lacked labor. So it attracted labor (indentured or immigrant) through promising free land. This land did not actually belong to the US in a meaningful way, just in a colonial sense (i.e. other people already used this land) and so when settlers came out the the frontier (even if they didn't actively attack native populations) the local native American communities would try and protect their hunting areas or streams or whatnot and attack the settlers. The US governmnet (or colonial governments) would then come in and massacre the native population and push everyone even further into the interior of the continent... and then promise "free" land to even more settlers and this cycle essentially continued until the 20th century.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

Why do you consider Palestinians so sub-human that they should pay for the crimes of Europeans and North Americans? Why should Palestinians be wiped out of their homeland for some fucked up colonialist and genocidal Zionist wet dream? If the Europeans and North Americans really felt bad they'd make way for a Jewish homeland in their own territory.


Historically, Israel was where it is now. Also, a Jewish homeland in American and European territories would probably amount to a impoverished land with a high crime rate and employments problems because America especially, seems to be horrible at letting sovereign states exist within it.

Proof of this comes with the horrible state that many of the Native American reservations have been left into. Though, many of the reservations are rebuilding themselves thanks to social changes and many other factors, but without doubt, if Israel came to exist in America or Europe, it would just be another Reservation or something similar to it...

[danyboy27]

how does that 'nationalism'affect you as a canadian/american?

well it dosnt affect me, i dont care, but there is countless of people who died and suffered at the hand of that natonalism: minorities, the indians, left winger in the 70s etc etc

Nationalism is a plague that will always bring suffering and opression. If at first, it may seem like a good way to fight opression, and may work sometimes, at the end, it will always backfire.




what kind of question is that to ask him?get real ,silly.

no, its not silly, its a verry good question. I have been to a pro liban protest in 2006, and during the conference many leftist argued it was okay to kill israeli children beccause they received a military training. 2 times already on that forum i have meet a fews anti-semites folks who argued that we should litteraly kill all the jews in israel.

i just want to be sure to know who this guy is, an anti-sionism or a stupid anti-semite.

ps: i am not your son kiddo.

[LeninBalls]

Historically, Israel was where it is now. Also, a Jewish homeland in American and European territories would probably amount to a impoverished land with a high crime rate and employments problems because America especially, seems to be horrible at letting sovereign states exist within it.

cuz palestine doesnt have crime or unemployment