Cop Asked to Leave at Anarchist cafe

[FinnMacCool]

from infoshop:

Red and Black Cafe asks cop to leave, mainstream media and boot-lickers throw a fit

Portland Indymedia Center
On March 22, 2010, Officer James Crooker provided "lethal cover" as he and other officers presided over the dead body of Jack Collins, a long-time Portlander who lived outside and had just been shot to death by Officer Jason Walters at the Hoyt Arboretium. The picture that appears in the Oregonian, however, shows a smiling Officer Crooker at the Rose Festival, whom a suburbanite blogger has befriended and gushed over in her blog.
The suburban blogger witnessed the cop being asked to leave the Red and Black and just could not comprehend why cops make people, especially homeless people and political activists, uncomfortable. So she wrote on her blog about how terrible it was that Officer Crooker wasn't invited to stay at the Red and Black and make everyone feel intimidated, and for some reason all the local mainstream media goose-steppers have felt it necessary to amplify her message if incomprehension to the nth degree.


This incident and the following media backlash against the Red and Black demonstrates the split in society between the privileged and those who more often than not feel the pressure of the boot of authority on their necks. The Red and Black consistently takes its stand against oppression and those of us who stand with them can be proud of the fact that Officer Crooker was asked to take a hike. While I can't speak for others, I personally support whole-heartedly the decision to not tolerate the oppressive presence of a police officer in an otherwise safe space.


=======================================
Personally, I agree with the red and black cafe, for obvious reasons, however I can see why there would be backlash seeing as how cops are put on such a high pedestal in our society, for the most part.

[thomasludd]

why is that cop in Red and Black? planning to hang out with activists in his free time and shooting them when in duty?

[Universal Struggle]

Mos people support pigs over their fellow workers.

stop with the privillaged bullshit, you sound fucking mental.

Just because someone is reactionary dosent mean they are privillaged, hell, more communist students are privilliged than reactionary workers

[FriendlyLocalViking]

I already don't serve police officers in my coffee-shop job. If I had the opportunity... I wouldn't serve them either.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Are cops inevitably reactionary, or can they be consciously converted? Just wondering what others think of this.

[FriendlyLocalViking]

Are cops inevitably reactionary, or can they be consciously converted? Just wondering what others think of this.

Well, in my experience, there are some cops who took the job out of a genuine desire to help and protect people, so I think there are a few good guys in there. Mixed in with a lot of bad apples, of course.

[Os Cangaceiros]

What was he doing there in the first place.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Well, in my experience, there are some cops who took the job out of a genuine desire to help and protect people, so I think there are a few good guys in there. Mixed in with a lot of bad apples, of course.

It's the good apples though that find themselves out of a job sooner or later. I knew this one cop who got fired, only so the chief's cousin could take his place. The cop that was fired then became a bread boy & part-time auto parts seller.

[Saorsa]

Good for them. Cops not welcome!

[FriendlyLocalViking]

It's the good apples though that find themselves out of a job sooner or later. I knew this one cop who got fired, only so the chief's cousin could take his place. The cop that was fired then became a bread boy & part-time auto parts seller.

Yeah, the good guys quickly get pushed out. Shame really, if the bad guys got kicked out instead.... the Police may not be such an awful institution. However, it is. :(

[Raúl Duke]

Some people may join the police out of some good intentions; but see the Police Department as a social institution which will either wear those good apples out or they will be socialized into being a cop and all that implies.

I wonder if the media understood that the Black and Red is an anarchist cafe (personally with a name like that I would have made it into a pub) and it's painstakingly obvious/not a secret what anarchists think about cops so it shouldn't surprise anyone.

[Agnapostate]

Most people predisposed to become military and law enforcement personnel aren't the types prone to support anarchism, other forms of socialism, or leftism in general, with some exceptions, as with anything else. Personal identity is thus at least partially tied into the institutions. There's also not a problem with being civil or genuinely amicable to people that fill those roles at times when it's not the primary characteristic of a hostile interaction with them.

[Red Commissar]

It's obvious why the anarchist cafe wouldn't want a cop in their cafe, but as others have brought up what business did the cop have in there?

The mainstream media's response is not really surprising though. It's on the same line of "soldiers refused service at _____" that gets people worked up. Law enforcement and the military generally has the sympathies (or at least the engineered part) of the public at large, particularly people who don't encounter their bad side.

[AK]

Are cops inevitably reactionary, or can they be consciously converted? Just wondering what others think of this.
If I could think back to an older thread, someone mentioned an entire police force siding with the German revolution.

[GreenCommunism]

i think those kind of gestures are symbolic at best. if he is a cop guilty of police brutality i would understand that they want to make a statement. but sometime i find this attitude that is stereotypical of anarchists to be juvenile (no pun intended). it reminds me of when people accuse each other of being cops based on nothing. the really dangerous cops are those who are undercover. beside i don't understand what it is about people who assume all radical leftist are criminal. we have either evidence planted on us or there is a red scare that doesn't care about evidence. of course some do sabotage such as a recent group who fucked up train rails and cost a company like a million dollar. but those case are pretty rare. what i'm ultimately getting to is that breaking windows is not sabotage.

another thing, if an anarchist with an anarchist t-shirt enters a cafe which cops usually attend, he should be served and so on. sure people around him might try to convince him that the state is needed bla bla bla, why shouldn't the same group pressures applies to a cop in an anarchist cafe? that is anyone who faces a large group who disagree with their belief will more likely question their belief, or they will get tired and eventually stop going to that cafe. i don't see why can't we politely engage in conversation with a lone cop on duty who looks like a heterosexual in a gay bar, though i wonder what they look like.

[Guerrilla22]

I wouldn't have asked him to leave, I would have spat in his coffee and watched him drink it.

[064]

The revolutionary thing would have been to serve him some tofu coffee.

[chegitz guevara]

I wouldn't have asked him to leave, I would have spat in his coffee and watched him drink it.

That would have been very illegal if you'd been caught, and likely would get the cafe shut down. Otherwise, it would simply have been mental masturbation.

This was a chance to engage the cop. When I was at university, one of the monks told me the following story.

He was a police officer. Normally they would make small scale busts, seize a little bit of dope, confiscate it, send the perp on his way, then smoke it themselves. One time he pulled over a car and found a large amount of pot, and he knew this was gonna be a big bust, get him in good, move his career along. So called in backup, through the guy in the back of his squad car, and the whole time, the drug dealer is going, "You know this isn't right. You know this isn't right." Constantly.

Next day, the cop quit his job, because, he did, in fact, know it wasn't right. Then he joined the monastery at my university and became a Vincentian monk.

[GreenCommunism]

That would have been very illegal if you'd been caught, and likely would get the cafe shut down. Otherwise, it would simply have been mental masturbation.
illegal yes, the cafe shutdown? i think she was kidding. by the way under what law is it illegal?

[Jazzhands]

That would have been very illegal if you'd been caught, and likely would get the cafe shut down. Otherwise, it would simply have been mental masturbation.

Agree with that. But is masturbation anything but mental? :D

[chegitz guevara]

Agree with that. But is masturbation anything but mental? :D

Dude, if it's only mental, you're doing it wrong. :lol:

[chegitz guevara]

illegal yes, the cafe shutdown? i think she was kidding. by the way under what law is it illegal?

Adding a foreign substance to food, attempted poisoning, etc. Health departments take a very dim view on such things. To stay open they'd need a lawyer and would have to throw the comrade under the bus.

[Jazzratt]

That would have been very illegal if you'd been caught, and likely would get the cafe shut down. Otherwise, it would simply have been mental masturbation.

This was a chance to engage the cop. When I was at university, one of the monks told me the following story.

He was a police officer. Normally they would make small scale busts, seize a little bit of dope, confiscate it, send the perp on his way, then smoke it themselves. One time he pulled over a car and found a large amount of pot, and he knew this was gonna be a big bust, get him in good, move his career along. So called in backup, through the guy in the back of his squad car, and the whole time, the drug dealer is going, "You know this isn't right. You know this isn't right." Constantly.

Next day, the cop quit his job, because, he did, in fact, know it wasn't right. Then he joined the monastery at my university and became a Vincentian monk.

Right, but for every cop who does that how many do you suppose would either ignore the dealer or actually believe themselves justified? Is it few enough to risk allowing a copper near activists? The idea of "converting" coppers is a nice one but I doubt it works with enough frequency for it to be a good idea to put the fox amongst the hens in this fashion.

[chegitz guevara]

I don't know. How often have we tried?

[FriendlyLocalViking]

I don't know. How often have we tried?

I dunno man, I have a strict rule: if someone's more heavily armed than me, I don't get into a heated political debate with him.

[Broletariat]

I dunno man, I have a strict rule: if someone's more heavily armed than me, I don't get into a heated political debate with him.
Fucking lol'd

I like this philosophy

[GreenCommunism]

Is it few enough to risk allowing a copper near activists? The idea of "converting" coppers is a nice one but I doubt it works with enough frequency for it to be a good idea to put the fox amongst the hens in this fashion.
do you disagree that the most dangerous cops are the undercover one? the only bad thing about this is if those anarchist are talking about the last stupid window smashing thing they did last night and the cop is hearing them. personally i think people who do major sabotage do not brag about it. retards who smash windows are just that, retards. not that i would help the cops against such people.

[KurtFF8]

If I could think back to an older thread, someone mentioned an entire police force siding with the German revolution.

I don't know about "the entire police force" but in places like Berlin, the police were run by the Independent Social Democrats (the USPD: split from the right wing SDP) and the police chief was a revolutionary. But at one point the USPD withdrew its governmental positions, so the SPD sacked the police chief too. This caused quite an uproar and lead to quite a bit of violence (that ended up in the assassination of Luxemburg and Liebknecht)

But anywho, I don't know how I feel about this "asking the cop to leave." It's odd that the cop would go to a place like this but I'm not sure that this was the right choice.

[FinnMacCool]

I'm surprised to see that another forum I go to has a thread on this same topic.

This forum is mainly filled with right wingers.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/74285-im-appalled-policeman-discriminated-against.html

[Agnapostate]

Our efforts outside of here are as anti-capitalists, not representatives of our own tendency, which is why I was glad to see you and KC uniting against anti-socialists there.

[bcbm]

What was he doing there in the first place.

given the situation between anarchists and the police in portland over the past few months, i would say he was snooping and/or trying to intimidate them.


This was a chance to engage the cop.

i don't think there is anything to be said to police officers who provide cover while their fellow officers murder homeless people and then come in to an anarchist cafe in order to intimidate and spy after anarchist attacks on police stations besides "fuck off."


retards who smash windows are just that, retards.

don't call people retards.

[Jazzratt]

do you disagree that the most dangerous cops are the undercover one?

No, of course not. Some snakes are more poisonous than others but I'm not about to sleep with an adder in my bed because asps are more dangerous.


the only bad thing about this is if those anarchist are talking about the last stupid window smashing thing they did last night and the cop is hearing them.

Window smashing isn't the only illegal thing people do. I'm sure the bacon take a great interest in squatters, drug users and so on.


Personally I think people who do major sabotage do not brag about it.

Major sabotage probably represents the smallest percentage of what anarchists get up to, to be honest


retards who smash windows are just that, retards. not that i would help the cops against such people.

"Retard" is considered prejuidiced language on this website, this is a verbal warning.

[FinnMacCool]

someone on the thread on that board called for the "boycott of Red and Black cafe" Lulz

[Robocommie]

Well, in my experience, there are some cops who took the job out of a genuine desire to help and protect people, so I think there are a few good guys in there. Mixed in with a lot of bad apples, of course.

I think it's the job that corrupts people, moreso than any natural tendency for the job to attract bad people. But I'm sure that's part of it. I wrote more about this elsewhere but I'm not quite in the mood to go track it down. But I think people either see it as just another job, a way to make a living, and others see it as a way to serve the community. The first of those two obviously are the easiest to become assholes, but the second category can pretty easily be ground down by the realities of their job.

[Meridian]

Are cops inevitably reactionary, or can they be consciously converted? Just wondering what others think of this.
Speaking as someone who has previously done some work in the police force, there are people who have a genuine concern about working people, including protesters. But I know for a fact that it is very different depending on which country you are in. And there are different social environments. There are more intellectual types within the police, where I live, who do f.ex. research and statistical work, who can be quite progressive. And then you have the people who are out on duty every day, they can either be extremely reactionary or very radical. Sometimes a weird mixture of both.

But again, I kind of doubt this applies well to for example USA. And I think the police force, where I live at least, is changing for the worse when it comes to its political environment.

[Robocommie]

given the situation between anarchists and the police in portland over the past few months, i would say he was snooping and/or trying to intimidate them.

But bcbm, the article said he was just trying to get a coffee. There's only SO MANY coffee shops in Portland he could have gone to. (:D)

[GreenCommunism]

Window smashing isn't the only illegal thing people do. I'm sure the bacon take a great interest in squatters, drug users and so on.
good point.

Major sabotage probably represents the smallest percentage of what anarchists get up to, to be honest
it's the only thing they should be doing, except pehaps squat.

"Retard" is considered prejuidiced language on this website, this is a verbal warning.
i wasn't using it against anybody, but okay. it's not nice to call people with certain diseases as negative or so.

But bcbm, the article said he was just trying to get a coffee. There's only SO MANY coffee shops in Portland he could have gone to. ()
that sounds like someone who wouldn't want a guy to get a drink in a gay bar. who cares seriously. if anarchist can discriminate against cops, then racist can discriminates against blacks.

[Os Cangaceiros]

\i don't think there is anything to be said to police officers who provide cover while their fellow officers murder homeless people and then come in to an anarchist cafe in order to intimidate and spy after anarchist attacks on police stations besides "fuck off."

I don't know how you couldn't love the Portland PD, though... (http://foolocracy.com/2010/05/portland-police-pass-out-booklet-about-sodomy-to-schoolchildren/)

[Robocommie]

that sounds like someone who wouldn't want a guy to get a drink in a gay bar. who cares seriously. if anarchist can discriminate against cops, then racist can discriminates against blacks.

Cops and black folks ain't equivalent, man.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I dunno man, I have a strict rule: if someone's more heavily armed than me, I don't get into a heated political debate with him.

Now there's an advanced critique for ya! :lol:

[gorillafuck]

He was a police officer. Normally they would make small scale busts, seize a little bit of dope, confiscate it, send the perp on his way, then smoke it themselves.
Wait wait wait......

Cops actually smoke the weed themselves?

[Ravachol]

I don't know how you couldn't love the Portland PD, though... (http://foolocracy.com/2010/05/portland-police-pass-out-booklet-about-sodomy-to-schoolchildren/)

I love how they 'explain' the law by making this:



“You are baby-sitting or playing with a small child. You have sexual contact with them by touching their penis, vaginal area, or anus, or by making them touch you in those same places. You will go to prison and could be there for 6 years and 3 months.”


Sound like a fact of life you can't do shit about :laugh:

[GreenCommunism]

Cops and black folks ain't equivalent, man.
choosing not to serve anyone for any reason other than aggressive behavior is discrimination no matter what. though i know there is discrimination for political opinion, i don't know if there is discrimination for the job you do.

Wait wait wait......

Cops actually smoke the weed themselves?
one cop busted a friend and afterward we saw him smoke his prize. should we have taken their plates and snitch on them? is snitching snitch wrong?

[chegitz guevara]

Wait wait wait......

Cops actually smoke the weed themselves?

Sometimes. This was the 80s when the story was related to me.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Wait wait wait......

Cops actually smoke the weed themselves?

I'd be willing to bet that a good deal of it never makes it back to the evidence room. :lol:

I remember once in college, two cops busted my roommate and I for weed, and confiscated what we had left. They took down our info, but I never heard anything else afterwards...

It wouldn't have been nearly as suspicious had one of the cops not sniffed the baggie and said, "Oh, yeah, this is good stuff." (I shit you not.)

[Sankofa]

Wait wait wait......

Cops actually smoke the weed themselves?

Yeah, but they usually do it wrong. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwfe5lH1n9Q) :lol:

[The Vegan Marxist]

Yeah, but they usually do it wrong. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwfe5lH1n9Q) :lol:

Shiiittt, not the cop that I knew! :lol:

He knew how to toke that shit & skate as well haha.

[AK]

I don't know about "the entire police force"
That's what I read in the older thread. Blame the original poster.

[KurtFF8]

That's what I read in the older thread. Blame the original poster.

I wasn't trying to refute the claim, just from what I understand it wasn't as simple as that. German society at the time was quite divided (including sections of the working class) during the revolution. (I'm currently reading "The German Revolution" by Pierre Broue, I highly recommend it if you're interested in the subject)

[bcbm]

choosing not to serve anyone for any reason other than aggressive behavior is discrimination no matter what. though i know there is discrimination for political opinion, i don't know if there is discrimination for the job you do.

a cop entering an anarchist cafe sounds like "aggressive behavior" to me.

[An archist]

Is there even a discussion about this? If you know someone's a cop, then they're not welcome at any anarchist activities, period.

[Ravachol]

Is there even a discussion about this? If you know someone's a cop, then they're not welcome at any anarchist activities, period.

Seconded. Regardless of the lad's character, you can hardly expect a cop, who's material conditions and livelihood depend on his loyal servitude towards state interests (which include opposing any Anarchist group), to NOT commit acts harmfull to your collective. I mean, the guy probably realises just as well that snitching and reporting information gathered there to his superiors within the intelligence branch could land him a small raise or put him up a step on the ladder to promotion, pretty tempting considering his meager pay. Their interests are materially, if not ideologically as well, intertwined with those of the very state Anarchists ought to oppose.

[Karl Marx AK47]

Well, in my experience, there are some cops who took the job out of a genuine desire to help and protect people, so I think there are a few good guys in there. Mixed in with a lot of bad apples, of course.


Are cops inevitably reactionary, or can they be consciously converted? Just wondering what others think of this.

I think it runs a lot deeper than simply a few 'good' guys mixed with a lot of bad apples. I think this dated link answers both; that bad statement and good question. I'd love to see something current on this!

wwwDOTbolshevikDOTorg/1917/West/1917%20West%20%232DOThtml

[GreenCommunism]

a cop entering an anarchist cafe sounds like "aggressive behavior" to me.
how about a black guy entering a shop with a no black sign? i know you say it ain't the same. but i still see no difference then, what if someone was a rapist or a serial killer and you wouldn't serve him coffee. it's still discrimination.

okay so the cop get no coffee. does that mean he has to leave? gasp can someone call the cops on that cop?

[Ravachol]

how about a black guy entering a shop with a no black sign? i know you say it ain't the same. but i still see no difference then, what if someone was a rapist or a serial killer and you wouldn't serve him coffee. it's still discrimination.


You best be trolling....
First of all, how is not allowing someone in your cafe whose social function is, amongst others, dismanteling your group 'discrimination'?

Secondly, there is nothing wrong with intolerance in itself, it is the target of intolerance that justifies it or not. Are anarchists to allow fascists in their cafes out of fear of 'discriminating' against them? I think not.



okay so the cop get no coffee. does that mean he has to leave? gasp can someone call the cops on that cop?

No, Cops are simply not allowed in a space whose function (providing space to people seeking to further the cause of Anarchism) runs opposed to the interests of the organisation the Cop serves (the State). The risk of him snitching on people being active there, discussions being overheard,etc is simply too big.

Aside from that, the cop himself is someone who serves a social construct (the state) that we as Anarchists seek to dismantle, we are hardly gonna let them 'chill out' in our spaces are we? That's just plain old liberalism :glare:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Mos people support pigs over their fellow workers.

stop with the privillaged bullshit, you sound fucking mental.

Just because someone is reactionary dosent mean they are privillaged, hell, more communist students are privilliged than reactionary workers

I believe privilige can be gained or lost. Also take it from someone who has experience, it's easer to lose.

[ContrarianLemming]

So, we're in agreement: cops smoke the weed they take and shouldn't be welcome at anarchist cafes (Why always cafes? never pubs?).
I might make a thread about this subject, but "tolerance to fascism" in the learning section might already be good enough.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Are cops inevitably reactionary, or can they be consciously converted? Just wondering what others think of this.

Some are misguided and some are just assholes.

[ContrarianLemming]

Are cops inevitably reactionary, or can they be consciously converted? Just wondering what others think of this.

In my opinion, most cops are nice people who have no idea that they are defending the status quo, I try not to "discriminate" against there kind but i can't help but look at them in a discriminatory way. I think they are in the same position as most class traitors (including the "bureaucratic class - managers, supervisors) - they have no idea the harm they do.

[GreenCommunism]

You best be trolling....
First of all, how is not allowing someone in your cafe whose social function is, amongst others, dismanteling your group 'discrimination'?

Secondly, there is nothing wrong with intolerance in itself, it is the target of intolerance that justifies it or not. Are anarchists to allow fascists in their cafes out of fear of 'discriminating' against them? I think not.

i'm not trolling, shit you can't understand that having a signs that says no cops here is discrimination? target of tolerance doesn't justify anything, the communist are demonized was it justified to be intolerant of them, i am speaking on the moral relativist way. there is a difference between being intolerant or disagreeing with someone's behavior and kicking their ass or preventing them from entering your cafe or getting served coffee.

yes anarchist will allow fascist in their cafe because it's against the law not to. but then they don't really care about much the law usually. but they have to , i think it's pretty stupid for an open fascist to go there and be identified by antifa. but oh well. i know the same could be said of cops who identify possible anarchist. but i really, really don't know why would anarchist do crimes to begin with, there is no insurrection or stuff like that. as for the smoking pot type of things, every pub should feel threatened whenever a cop enters it.

and still, why don't an undercover cop isn't taking coffee there. he can overhears just as well.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

choosing not to serve anyone for any reason other than aggressive behavior is discrimination no matter what. though i know there is discrimination for political opinion, i don't know if there is discrimination for the job you do.

Well, deffinately not in the eyes of the law books. At least here in Milwaukee it's up to the owner of the establishment hence bars and clubs with dress codes, and even though the drinking age is 21 years old in WI, I've seen bars that say 25 and up.

Now for employment there are discrimination laws that are very specific on what they cover. Here in Wisconsin, for example, an employer can legally discriminate against a transsexual, so I'll have to wait until they pass ENDA.

But, in the case of the cop, for once I agree with discriminating. Kick him out!

[GreenCommunism]

Well, deffinately not in the eyes of the law books. At least here in Milwaukee it's up to the owner of the establishment hence bars and clubs with dress codes, and even though the drinking age is 21 years old in WI, I've seen bars that say 25 and up.

Now for employment there are discrimination laws that are very specific on what they cover. Here in Wisconsin, for example, an employer can legally discriminate against a transsexual, so I'll have to wait until they pass ENDA.

But, in the case of the cop, for once I agree with discriminating. Kick him out!
__________________

interesting, but if they say 25 year or more, can they stop you from entering?

[leftace53]

I think the difference between cop discrimination and black discrimination is that a cop is first and foremost a cop, but a black person (or any other colour) is first and foremost a person. In many places if you assault a cop, you get charged with a higher sentence than if you just assault a normal person. So the position of a cop is a socially constructed one, where as a position of a human being isn't quite that.

Silly cop, anarchist cafes are for anarchists.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

interesting, but if they say 25 year or more, can they stop you from entering?

Yes, who is let in is up to the owner of the place. And they would keep me out I'm 23 years old.

Though I believe even in this case race is still protected (even though that's still only so much paper as far as our legal system is concerned)


And here in Milwaukee, racism is a problem. Most of those bars I've noticed with those signs were on the northside (Milwaukee is very segregated) which is prodominantly black and that's where I've also commonly heard someone yell "Go back to the Southside" and "Go back to Mexico" (the south side comment is always ironic, because I'm an Eastside girl) I'm not even going into how white suburbs are. They are actually just as bad, just more backhanded.

[Ravachol]

i'm not trolling, shit you can't understand that having a signs that says no cops here is discrimination? target of tolerance doesn't justify anything


Yes it does. Are we to be tolerant of Fascists and Capitalists? If so, I don't think this is the right forum for you.



yes anarchist will allow fascist in their cafe because it's against the law not to.


No it's not. I'll be damned if a fascist with a pulse is allowed to walk into any Anarchist Cafe.



i know the same could be said of cops who identify possible anarchist. but i really, really don't know why would anarchist do crimes to begin with, there is no insurrection or stuff like that.


Are you for real? You honestly believe the state only spies on movements commiting 'crimes'? Then again, who cares what the state defines as a 'crime', we ought to OVERTHROW the state and current socio-economic order. I bet ya that's a 'crime' :rolleyes:



and still, why don't an undercover cop isn't taking coffee there. he can overhears just as well.

That's because no-one would have noticed him, not because people let him sit there and spy on people.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

No it's not. I'll be damned if a fascist with a pulse is allowed to walk into any Anarchist Cafe.

Actually, I think it'd be fun to have a fascist (with a pulse, for now) in a cage to throw eggs at. Entertainment for the whole family! :laugh:

Also, I know people who can detect an undercover unfailingly. I also can to some extent. Though I have slightly less accuracy.

[An archist]

i'm not trolling, shit you can't understand that having a signs that says no cops here is discrimination? target of tolerance doesn't justify anything, the communist are demonized was it justified to be intolerant of them, i am speaking on the moral relativist way. there is a difference between being intolerant or disagreeing with someone's behavior and kicking their ass or preventing them from entering your cafe or getting served coffee.

yes anarchist will allow fascist in their cafe because it's against the law not to. but then they don't really care about much the law usually. but they have to , i think it's pretty stupid for an open fascist to go there and be identified by antifa. but oh well. i know the same could be said of cops who identify possible anarchist. but i really, really don't know why would anarchist do crimes to begin with, there is no insurrection or stuff like that. as for the smoking pot type of things, every pub should feel threatened whenever a cop enters it.

and still, why don't an undercover cop isn't taking coffee there. he can overhears just as well.

I'm quite proud to discriminate against cops and fascists.
Their interests are completely against our interests, cops and fascist have attacked anarchist spaces and activities and will do so in the future several more times.

You can't one day throw bricks at a place or arrest people at a bar and the next happily walk in to have drink.

I don't know if you've ever been at anarchist places or activities, but this is pretty standard. If you see cops or fascists arriving, you warn other people and make sure they don't get in.

[GreenCommunism]

Are you for real? You honestly believe the state only spies on movements commiting 'crimes'? Then again, who cares what the state defines as a 'crime', we ought to OVERTHROW the state and current socio-economic order. I bet ya that's a 'crime'

yeah but we are contemplating crime. and waiting for the good time to act. we are not doing crimes per se.

they spy on movement with propensity to commit crimes such as anarchists, and they also plant false evidence on possibly dangerous groups such as the black panther.


Yes it does. Are we to be tolerant of Fascists and Capitalists? If so, I don't think this is the right forum for you.
what is tolerant? disapproval of one's belief and peaceful debate is tolerance for me.

No it's not. I'll be damned if a fascist with a pulse is allowed to walk into any Anarchist Cafe.
you'll probably think it is a cool act of transgression for an anarchist to walk into a fascist cafe.


That's because no-one would have noticed him, not because people let him sit there and spy on people.
i really don't see the point of being a cop in uniform in an anarchist cafe, people would obviously shut up when they see him. he just has to be a cop in civilian clothing.

In many places if you assault a cop, you get charged with a higher sentence than if you just assault a normal person.

this is during his job, i think if you assault a cop outside his job it is the same as if it was a citizen. though the court may be more biased against you.

[Ravachol]

yeah but we are contemplating crime. and waiting for the good time to act. we are not doing crimes per se.

they spy on movement with propensity to commit crimes such as anarchists, and they also plant false evidence on possibly dangerous groups such as the black panther.


Errr.... They spy on any movement threatening their hegemony but whatever man.



what is tolerant? disapproval of one's belief and peaceful debate is tolerance for me.


No that's liberal bullshit. There is no sense in peacefully 'debating' the bourgoisie into surrendering the means of production.



you'll probably think it is a cool act of transgression for an anarchist to walk into a fascist cafe.


No, it's just the badass way I roll bro :cool:

Are you actually being apologetic towards fascists here? :blink: Fascists are to be countered and opposed wherever they manifest, whenever they manifest and ESPECIALLY in our own spaces.



this is during his job, i think if you assault a cop outside his job it is the same as if it was a citizen. though the court may be more biased against you.

A cop is never 'outside his job' nor is anybody. His material interests are tied to his job and hence he will just as well report anything he hears in his 'spare time'. You honestly think he'll shut the hell up because he heard shit in his 'spare time'? :rolleyes:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

i really don't see the point of being a cop in uniform in an anarchist cafe, people would obviously shut up when they see him. he just has to be a cop in civilian clothing.

Wow! Did you just figure that out?

[Karl Marx AK47]

Some are misguided and some are just assholes.


In my opinion, most cops are nice people who have no idea that they are defending the status quo, I try not to "discriminate" against there kind but i can't help but look at them in a discriminatory way. I think they are in the same position as most class traitors (including the "bureaucratic class - managers, supervisors) - they have no idea the harm they do.

This isn't about some benign malevolent force here. They are part of a ruthlessly organized force that holds a monopoly on violence that also collaborate with an imperial military force. Did you notice how they went from Hill Street Blues to paramilitary death-squad black? People talk about proto-fascist Tea Parties, but the reality is the black shirted fascists are already among us and they are far more organized than the tea party distraction.

Police are fully aware of what class they are defending and whom they are betraying. Criminal justice coarse work trains them at the very beginning about the order they are protecting and serving. While some may subscribe to sado-masochism, nobody should delude themselves with their fantasies and romantics about these people. They would have no problem bashing your head into the pavement if given the order to do so. They would even stand idle, watching proxies do it for them. The capitalist state has a history of working with fascists and the criminal underworld to suppress the working class. If you ever went to any protests, you'd see them in full force using military apparel/hardware/software. As this global capitalist crisis unfolds, these people are busy shaking people down and building up a police state. Their psychological profile ejaculates to this kind of stuff. As someone indicated in this thread, they personally identify with this oppressive/repressive apparatus from many factors relating to the system ie. education and recreation. Capitalism, like slavery, have laws that protect the status quo. Let's be real here, they are no more legitimate than these corrupt laws and the ruling class they serve.

Despite these 'individual' misgivings or 'bad apples' revolutionaries need to look at the history of policing objectively and understand- revolution is a serious business, not to be taken lightly, meaning life and death. It's not a game.

wwwDOTyoutubeDOTcom/watch?v=1JTE0WI5C1Y

Our objective is complete freedom, justice and equality by any means necessary." Malcolm X

Wielding the ultimate weapon provided us by past and present Marxists, both intellectually and politically, is imperative to taking aim correctly.

[GreenCommunism]

No that's liberal bullshit. There is no sense in peacefully 'debating' the bourgoisie into surrendering the means of production.
yes there is, other people could be hearing the conversation, i know that his interest somewhat blocks him from being open-minded to our causes but i think this attitude that they won't listen to reason at all is dumb. they need stronger arguments and you might even convince him but he won't admit it.

Are you actually being apologetic towards fascists here? Fascists are to be countered and opposed wherever they manifest, whenever they manifest and ESPECIALLY in our own spaces.
no i just think that there would be an outrage here if an anarchist walked into the wrong bar and got his ass kicked (then again i don't know if fascist bar or cafe exists). then again i don't care thats just PR bullshit.

A cop is never 'outside his job' nor is anybody. His material interests are tied to his job and hence he will just as well report anything he hears in his 'spare time'. You honestly think he'll shut the hell up because he heard shit in his 'spare time'?
yes i know ,i was refering to assault. this is also mostly the point i'm making, a cop can enter this place and blend in off duty. so it doesn't make sense that there is an outrage while hes on duty.

[GreenCommunism]

Wow! Did you just figure that out?
i don't see the point for him, and i don't see the point of this being an outrageous thing that we should totally take care of. i think this whole thing is a symbolic and useless thing. but then again it gave that cafe some publicity.

and i doubt cops throw bricks at an anarchist cafe.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I can't believe that a debate about this being "discrimination" is even being had here. Should Jews allow Nazis to enter their synagogue? Even if they're "peaceful"? :rolleyes:

[GreenCommunism]

why not? should nazis allow jews to enter their ..? headquarter ?church?

someone here saidthat theres a jew who goes in many nazi meetings and apologize for blaming the german for the holocaust and for starting the french and russian revolution. are nazis more tolerant anymore?

[Ravachol]

yes there is, other people could be hearing the conversation, i know that his interest somewhat blocks him from being open-minded to our causes but i think this attitude that they won't listen to reason at all is dumb. they need stronger arguments and you might even convince him but he won't admit it.


With all due respect but I have no idea what that scentence even means.
Are you honestly suggesting we 'convince' the CEOs of Shell, BP, Northropp-Grumann, Unilever,etc to surrender the means of production to the workers and are you honestly suggesting we 'convince' the state to dismantle with words? :confused: I'm sorry but you must be on acid...



no i just think that there would be an outrage here if an anarchist walked into the wrong bar and got his ass kicked (then again i don't know if fascist bar or cafe exists). then again i don't care thats just PR bullshit.


That would be an outrage yes, but if you're gonna hold Anarchists to the same standards as fascists you're being plain ridiculous.

Your entire argument is unstable in the extreme. As I said, it isn't "intolerance" in itself that is the problem, it is the context and subject it is exercised in. Following your logic, we should allow convicted serial child rapists in a children's playground :rolleyes:

[GreenCommunism]

sorry if my english is bad.

With all due respect but I have no idea what that scentence even means.
Are you honestly suggesting we 'convince' the CEOs of Shell, BP, Northropp-Grumann, Unilever,etc to surrender the means of production to the workers and are you honestly suggesting we 'convince' the state to dismantle with words? I'm sorry but you must be on acid...
i didn't say convince them to hand over the means of production, i said try to convince them that it is a good thing.

That would be an outrage yes, but if you're gonna hold Anarchists to the same standards as fascists you're being plain ridiculous.
again, being morally relativist i think that people back then thought of anarchist as godless goat fucker, what with using a satanic symbol with an A, that's shocking. at least it used to be. society finally makes some sense and realize the fascist are worse than the anarchist.i don't see why it wouldn't be a public outrage if back then a fascist walked into an anarchist cafe and got his ass kicked.


Your entire argument is unstable in the extreme. As I said, it isn't "intolerance" in itself that is the problem, it is the context and subject it is exercised in. Following your logic, we should allow convicted serial child rapists in a children's playground
those people must usually not be in contact with children for a certain number of time or go back to jail. after that time, well, i think we have no choice but to allow them on a children's playground, though i would watch my children carefully. i personally think the death sentence should come back for such people. the reason death sentence got illegal in certain countries is that it is overly used for crappy reasons, like treason.

[Ravachol]

sorry if my english is bad.


No problem at all.



i didn't say convince them to hand over the means of production, i said try to convince them that it is a good thing.


What good is that? The bourgoisie is a small, ruthless class with a VERY high degree of class conciousness that knows very well what kind of socio-economic position it has. It is not a good thing AT ALL for the bourgoisie to hand over the means of production to the working class, then again as revolutionary leftists we ought not to care about what the bourgoisie thinks.



again, being morally relativist i think that people back then thought of anarchist as godless goat fucker, what with using a satanic symbol with an A, that's shocking. at least it used to be. society finally makes some sense and realize the fascist are worse than the anarchist.


What are you trying to tell us?



i don't see why it wouldn't be a public outrage if back then a fascist walked into an anarchist cafe and got his ass kicked.


Errrr...

1) It wouldn't be a 'public outrage' at all, nobody would care
2) Even if they did, that doesn't mean we ought to let fascists into our spaces.

I can't believe I have to explain why we shouldn't let fascists, who we should prevent from organising or gathering AT ALL, into our cafes...



i personally think the death sentence should come back for such people. the reason death sentence got illegal in certain countries is that it is overly used for crappy reasons, like treason.

I hope you realise this is completely anathema to Radical leftist thought right? I'm a fierce opponent of the death scentence as a judical measure in any society (which does not mean I oppose revolutionary violence, which is a completely different debate).

I also don't get your point, you want to let convicted child rapists into a children playground because you're a 'moral relativist' whilst at the same time arguing in favor of the death scentence :blink:

[GreenCommunism]

I hope you realise this is completely anathema to Radical leftist thought right? I'm a fierce opponent of the death scentence as a judical measure in any society (which does not mean I oppose revolutionary violence, which is a completely different debate).

I also don't get your point, you want to let convicted child rapists into a children playground because you're a 'moral relativist' whilst at the same time arguing in favor of the death scentence
? the moral relativist line is about fascist or anarchist, i don't think we should consider one as holy and other as evil. both should be judged on their action, which pretty much singles out fascist as pretty bad because of their hate crimes.

children rapist wouldn't be allowed on a children's playground if they are dead no?. if not they should get life sentence at least some of them, though i'm not sure i agree with the abuse they will suffer in prison from other inmates or prison guard.

the state may be incompetent, but if they have served their sentence or so and have the right to be with children again then i guess we cant do much. it's not like the rapist is advertising that he is a rapist.

[Jazzhands]

I'm against the death penalty in all forms for several reasons.

1. It's not correctional or anything else that could possibly be helpful to anyone. It's just a revenge killing that doesn't bring anybody back from the dead or fix the problem.

2. Some of the best people on the left were killed with the death penalty for no crimes. Luxemburg, Liebknecht, Joe Hill, Trotsky, etc.

It is completely unnecessary in any society, let alone socialist society. Luxemburg said it best. "The proletarian revolution hates and despises killing. It does not need these weapons because it does not combat individuals but institutions, because it does not enter the arena with naïve illusions whose disappointment it would seek to revenge."

[GreenCommunism]

1. It's not correctional or anything else that could possibly be helpful to anyone. It's just a revenge killing that doesn't bring anybody back from the dead or fix the problem.

i agree with this for many crime, but for sexual abuse i think it prevents further crime, since they have 50-70% recidivist rate. also most child molester were abused in their childhood. it is a cycle of violence, and state sanctioned execution is not part of this. it may stop the cycle.

2. Some of the best people on the left were killed with the death penalty for no crimes. Luxemburg, Liebknecht, Joe Hill, Trotsky, etc.

that's why i think it shouldn't be used at all for things like dissidence and treason . even murder. but if the death sentence is not used, would you agree with life imprisonment? not necessarily at the first offence. also i heard there is much money wasted on the death row inmate appealing the decision than actually keeping him in jail for life.

[Jazzhands]

Life imprisonment I'm OK with, just not the death penalty.


i agree with this for many crime, but for sexual abuse i think it prevents further crime, since they have 50-70% recidivist rate. also most child molester were abused in their childhood. it is a cycle of violence, and state sanctioned execution is not part of this. it may stop the cycle.

Cycles are circular. There's no endpoint in a circle.

[bcbm]

how about a black guy entering a shop with a no black sign? i know you say it ain't the same. but i still see no difference then, what if someone was a rapist or a serial killer and you wouldn't serve him coffee. it's still discrimination.

denying service to someone because of an incidental characteristic is discrimination. denying service to someone who has voluntarily dedicated their life to protecting the ruling class and whose presence immediately causes discomfort because the space is explicitly against the ruling class is common sense. the cop knew this was an anarchist cafe and he knew he wasn't welcome. he went in to intimidate, simple as.


Life imprisonment I'm OK with, just not the death penalty.

barbaric.

[GreenCommunism]

denying service to someone because of an incidental characteristic is discrimination. denying service to someone who has voluntarily dedicated their life to protecting the ruling class and whose presence immediately causes discomfort because the space is explicitly against the ruling class is common sense. the cop knew this was an anarchist cafe and he knew he wasn't welcome. he went in to intimidate, simple as.

i agree he was a dick, but i dont think you should deny service or tell him to leave for that.

[Ravachol]

i agree he was a dick, but i dont think you should deny service or tell him to leave for that.

Don't you get it? We DON'T WANT COPS in our cafes, spaces,etc because they actively serve 'the enemy' (Capital and the state), to put it bluntly and without fancy terms. We don't want them present in our cafes, in our streets, in our neighbourhoods or in our lives. We want to run society bottom-up, ourselves. Cops are an extension of Capital and act as the state's armed wing in everyday life, letting them in our cafes would be madness from both an ideological point of view and a practical point of view considering security-culture risks involved.

[Jazzratt]

So, we're in agreement: cops smoke the weed they take and shouldn't be welcome at anarchist cafes (Why always cafes? never pubs?).

Because most countries require any premisis selling or distributing alcoholic beverages to have a lisence, which costs money to apply for and maintain as well as being very strictly regulated. It's not that practical for anarchist organisations, which tend not to be swimming in capital, to run such a place. At least, I presume that's the reason; the idea that most anarchists are tee-total is too depressing to contemplate.

[JacobVardy]

Wait wait wait......

Cops actually smoke the weed themselves?


Nah, these days they're dropping eckies or snorting lines.

Just in Sydney in the last few years, a couple of cops who shot a tourist were still high on coke, and a police station was taxing the dealers in the local night clubs.

A lot of cops know that prohibition is counter-productive. Its serves as form of loyalty test: if they will persecute drug users there is also a lot more they'll probably do for the state. A lot also realise that drugs were legalised there would not be a lot for police to do. (I think this is why drugs remain illegal. The vast scaling back of police forces after decriminalisation would be the first major step in dismantling the state.)

[GreenCommunism]

Don't you get it? We DON'T WANT COPS in our cafes, spaces,etc because they actively serve 'the enemy'
i don't care if you don't WANT them. you're also an anarchist and anarchists tell me that they would have volonteer policing or different ways to ensure security. would those people also not be WANTED in certain political cafe? of course most leftist are not fond of being tough on crime, but from what i heard there would be people doing security in an anarchist or communist world. so what about those people? should they be spat on? i do understand that the current climate is different, but could you understand that some cops would like their jobs to be meaningful, aka not protecting private property or busting people who take drugs. people respect the police? shit are you sure, people hate them because they enforce stupid laws that help nobody except fill in the state's coffer.


Cops are an extension of Capital and act as the state's armed wing in everyday life, letting them in our cafes would be madness from both an ideological point of view and a practical point of view considering security-culture risks involved.

i will say it a hundred times, if they wear civilian clothing you can't know they are there. it makes no difference whatsoever to deny a cop entrance or coffee because he is in cop clothing, it is symbolic at best.

[FriendlyLocalViking]

Don't you get it? We DON'T WANT COPS in our cafes, spaces,etc because they actively serve 'the enemy' (Capital and the state), to put it bluntly and without fancy terms. We don't want them present in our cafes, in our streets, in our neighbourhoods or in our lives. We want to run society bottom-up, ourselves. Cops are an extension of Capital and act as the state's armed wing in everyday life, letting them in our cafes would be madness from both an ideological point of view and a practical point of view considering security-culture risks involved.

Precisely. Ihad a buddy ask me why I don't like cops orserve them at work, and he was flabbergasted and confused when I simply responded "They're the enemy. Would you aid your enemy?"

[bcbm]

i don't care if you don't WANT them. you're also an anarchist and anarchists tell me that they would have volonteer policing or different ways to ensure security. would those people also not be WANTED in certain political cafe? of course most leftist are not fond of being tough on crime, but from what i heard there would be people doing security in an anarchist or communist world. so what about those people? should they be spat on? i do understand that the current climate is different, but could you understand that some cops would like their jobs to be meaningful, aka not protecting private property or busting people who take drugs. people respect the police? shit are you sure, people hate them because they enforce stupid laws that help nobody except fill in the state's coffer.

whatever "security" would exist once we have dismantled the state and capital would bear no resemblance to the current police force and such a comparison is completely asinine.

[Ravachol]

would those people also not be WANTED in certain political cafe? of course most leftist are not fond of being tough on crime, but from what i heard there would be people doing security in an anarchist or communist world. so what about those people? should they be spat on?


What are you on about man? Do you honestly not see the difference between 'security' volunteers elected in an Anarchist group on Anarchist principles and an armed group that serves and protects the very structure we seek to do away with? :confused: :blink:



i do understand that the current climate is different, but could you understand that some cops would like their jobs to be meaningful, aka not protecting private property or busting people who take drugs.


I'm sure they could 'like' that, but fact remains that they are OBLIGED to protect private property due to the very nature of their jobs. I'm not saying cops are 'bad persons', I'm saying their social function is anathema to our movement.



i will say it a hundred times, if they wear civilian clothing you can't know they are there.


Not true at all, plainsclothes cop ('stillen') spotting is a popular past-time during demos here in the Netherlands.



it makes no difference whatsoever to deny a cop entrance or coffee because he is in cop clothing, it is symbolic at best.

So because we can't deny entrance to all Cops we should allow them all in? What kind of logic is that.... :blink:


whatever "security" would exist once we have dismantled the state and capital would bear no resemblance to the current police force and such a comparison is completely asinine.

Also, this. Security existing under Anarchist Communism cannot be fully prefigured in the present lest we reproduce the notions of 'security' developed under the hegemony of bourgeois discours. In the struggle towards Anarchist Communism I'm a rather orthodox Anarcho-Syndicalist and argue in favor of Worker's militias as the 'security apparatus' of a revolutionary movement but that sure as hell shouldn't be the shape of 'security' under actual Anarchist Communism. Whatever shape that is going to take, as with all social structures, will be the end result of our struggles, the way we fight them and our social relationships.

All of this however, including the transitionary worker's militias, bears no resemblance whatsoever to an armed group of which at least one primary goal is to protect private property and smoothen state operations.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

and i doubt cops throw bricks at an anarchist cafe.

No they just raid anarchist collectives...

... On the morst far fetched, bullshit charges too...

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

yes there is, other people could be hearing the conversation, i know that his interest somewhat blocks him from being open-minded to our causes but i think this attitude that they won't listen to reason at all is dumb. they need stronger arguments and you might even convince him but he won't admit it.
Do you huff or something??? Why don't we invite neo-nazis over for tea while we're at it?


no i just think that there would be an outrage here if an anarchist walked into the wrong bar and got his ass kicked (then again i don't know if fascist bar or cafe exists). then again i don't care thats just PR bullshit.
Did the cop get his ass kicked? From what it seems, he was just asked to leave.


yes i know ,i was refering to assault. this is also mostly the point i'm making, a cop can enter this place and blend in off duty. so it doesn't make sense that there is an outrage while hes on duty.

If a cop was found out (regardless of clothing) he should be told to leave.

[MilkmanofHumanKindness]

Hmmmm... I'm really torn here.

On the one hand, the cop actively opposes and attempts to destroy all who oppose the State and class interests of the Bourgeois. They beat, arrest, oppress, cesnor, manipulate, distort, and kill.

Yet, a cop is still a person. They are still a human, misguided perhaps, but human. I've known cops and I can't imagine any single one of them thinking, "Alright, time to get up and slave away for my bourgeois masters while I go oppress the working class, and minorities."

Blanket policies applying to an occupation (Not a class, I have known several working class police officers.) is stupid.

It was a valuable opportunity to educate, that has now been ruined.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Hmmmm... I'm really torn here.

On the one hand, the cop actively opposes and attempts to destroy all who oppose the State and class interests of the Bourgeois. They beat, arrest, oppress, cesnor, manipulate, distort, and kill.

Yet, a cop is still a person. They are still a human, misguided perhaps, but human. I've known cops and I can't imagine any single one of them thinking, "Alright, time to get up and slave away for my bourgeois masters while I go oppress the working class, and minorities."

Blanket policies applying to an occupation (Not a class, I have known several working class police officers.) is stupid.

It was a valuable opportunity to educate, that has now been ruined.

Were not brown shirts "still people" as well? Doesn't mean we should roll out the red carpet for them...

[this is an invasion]

i agree he was a dick, but i dont think you should deny service or tell him to leave for that.

Jesus. What is it with liberals and not understanding the argument against cops? No one here is talking about him being a dick or anything like that. We do not care what kind of person he is at home. He could be the coolest motherfucker ever, but it doesn't change the fact that his role as a cop is to directly protect capitalism and the rich, while putting the poor and revolutionaries behind bars. Or six feet under.

Am I intolerant of cops? Fuck yes I am. Saying intolerance is wrong is a ridiculous, liberal blanket statement that lacks any context or analysis. Are there forms of intolerance that should be fought against? Yes. But this is not one of them.


You can always tell which people are armchair, ivory tower "activists" and which people actually have experience on the streets. And it's quite clear to me that greencommunism does not understand that risk of being an active, involved revolutionary. Your (greencommunism) stance is one that, if acted upon, could put people in jail who other wise would not have ended up there.

[MilkmanofHumanKindness]

Were not brown shirts "still people" as well? Doesn't mean we should roll out the red carpet for them...

That's cool, ignore almost everything I said so you can have a cute statement.

The difference between a Cop and a Fascist, is that a Fascist is labelled based on their politics. A Cop is labelled a Cop based on their occupation.

Now, re-read my post. For example, no Cop wakes up and thinks "Time to defend the ruling class."

Their slaves of the system based on misunderstanding, not any concious awareness of their role as protectors of the ruling class.

Obviously, as alwas intent guides as to how we should treat them. If it's obvious a Cop is there to trawl for info. definitely kick him. If he's just getting coffee or trying to educate himself, well that's time for talk.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

That's cool, ignore almost everything I said so you can have a cute statement.

The difference between a Cop and a Fascist, is that a Fascist is labelled based on their politics. A Cop is labelled a Cop based on their occupation.

Now, re-read my post. For example, no Cop wakes up and thinks "Time to defend the ruling class."

Their slaves of the system based on misunderstanding, not any concious awareness of their role as protectors of the ruling class.

Obviously, as alwas intent guides as to how we should treat them. If it's obvious a Cop is there to trawl for info. definitely kick him. If he's just getting coffee or trying to educate himself, well that's time for talk.

They willingly took a job (whether for reasons of malice or misguidedness) to defend the state.

[MilkmanofHumanKindness]

They willingly took a job (whether for reasons of malice or misguidedness) to defend the state.

Correct, but when they are not defending the state, we can educate them, so they won't be misguided... and that can only be done through actual contact with them...

Like I said if they're sincere, or not doing the work of the state, education is needed. If they're defending the state, kick them out.

[Agnapostate]

Anyone that pays taxes "defends the state" to a marginal extent.

[Martin Blank]

Why is this even an issue here? Even under capitalist law, a business (and let's be clear, this is a business) has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason within the boundaries of the law (e.g., can't refuse for being African American), including for no stated reason whatsoever. If the workers of the cafe did not want to serve a cop, and the owners/administrators/facilitators were fine with that, it is the end of the story. Everything else is bourgeois moralism and manufactured "outrage". In other words, fuck the pig. Let him go to Starbucks or Dunkin' Donuts.

[Ravachol]

Anyone that pays taxes "defends the state" to a marginal extent.

Yes, but they're not a direct operational threat to your organisation. It's not a moralist concern, it's primarily a concern of operational security.

[GreenCommunism]

And it's quite clear to me that greencommunism does not understand that risk of being an active, involved revolutionary.
i don't know what an active involved revolutionary does that's illegal, the only illegal act is armed revolution or major sabotage, or perhaps rioting? we don't live in a fascist state (for now),agitation,propaganda, organizing and peaceful protest (the last one is pretty useless) is not a crime. so i hate this assumptions that we are all criminals, sure we probably have a higher average rate of criminality as in many people here don't care about smoking pot.

Do you huff or something??? Why don't we invite neo-nazis over for tea while we're at it?

the reason is we and they don't is called antifa and a website called Red watch. most of them are gang members who are basicly pissed at other races gangs and can't get through their head that there are more important things in life than crime or who's the last guy who got beated up. as for the rare one who are not part of gangs they are often much more acceptive of violence than the average, and the single guy who is interested in debates and facts is too scared to be openly fascist because of antifa. which in my opinion totally blows, i mean how is there supposed to be any winner in this fight for the hearts of the working class? sounds like violence is the only method.

Why is this even an issue here? Even under capitalist law, a business (and let's be clear, this is a business) has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason within the boundaries of the law (e.g., can't refuse for being African American), including for no stated reason whatsoever.
okay then i change my mind, rand paul (just kidding) . you are right, if they want to refuse to serve anyone they have the right, so why wouldn't anarchist do so, beside a cop cafe has the right to do the same. i still think this i symbolic, and wouldn't change much if they serve him or not.

Not true at all, plainsclothes cop ('stillen') spotting is a popular past-time during demos here in the Netherlands.
?? i don't understand how do you figure that out, do members know those cops by appearance or name?

[MilkmanofHumanKindness]

Why is this even an issue here? Even under capitalist law, a business (and let's be clear, this is a business) has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason within the boundaries of the law (e.g., can't refuse for being African American), including for no stated reason whatsoever. If the workers of the cafe did not want to serve a cop, and the owners/administrators/facilitators were fine with that, it is the end of the story. Everything else is bourgeois moralism and manufactured "outrage". In other words, fuck the pig. Let him go to Starbucks or Dunkin' Donuts.

I don't think anyone is disputing it's legality, we're stating that blanket policies are bad because it removes one group of people we could educate.

[Raúl Duke]

beside a cop cafe has the right to do the same.why would an anarchist go to a cop cafe...when they can go to the red & black?


we're stating that blanket policies are bad because it removes one group of people we could educate.

educate cops? I doubt that's likely. Even if it could be done, it's less fruitful than other target audiences.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

the reason is we and they don't is called antifa and a website called Red watch. most of them are gang members who are basicly pissed at other races gangs and can't get through their head that there are more important things in life than crime or who's the last guy who got beated up. as for the rare one who are not part of gangs they are often much more acceptive of violence than the average, and the single guy who is interested in debates and facts is too scared to be openly fascist because of antifa. which in my opinion totally blows, i mean how is there supposed to be any winner in this fight for the hearts of the working class? sounds like violence is the only method.


First of all I believe in respecting diversity of tactics and I don't believe that violence should be taken off the table.
In my eyes the cops might as well be one of those 'gangs' they are a brutal organized gang that even has their own gang colors too...

[An archist]

?? i don't understand how do you figure that out, do members know those cops by appearance or name?

Most are just that obvious.
If you see a bunch of short-shaved, guys looking suspiciously at everyone, that's the ones you'll see grabbing their telescopic batons and wrestling people to the ground.

[bcbm]

why do so many anarchists suddenly turn into giant wieners (http://www.anarchistnews.org/?q=node/11463) when they try to explain themselves?

[Os Cangaceiros]

why do so many anarchists suddenly turn into giant wieners (http://www.anarchistnews.org/?q=node/11463) when they try to explain themselves?

Wow! That was fucking cringe-worthy!

Whatever happened to anarchist press conferences like this:

http://praxeology.net/anarchistspeechcartoon.PNG

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

why do so many anarchists suddenly turn into giant wieners (http://www.anarchistnews.org/?q=node/11463) when they try to explain themselves?

I'd just have told the press to fuck off. That they should kiss my ass and take their distortions somewhere else.

[ContrarianLemming]

If you see a bunch of short-shaved, guys looking suspiciously at everyone, that's the ones you'll see grabbing their telescopic batons and wrestling people to the ground.

Are we not allowed shave anymore.. ?

[FriendlyLocalViking]

educate cops? I doubt that's likely. Even if it could be done, it's less fruitful than other target audiences.

Think about it. A sympathetic cop could mean an inside guy, who can fudge paperwork and get comrades back out on the street.

[eyedrop]

Because most countries require any premisis selling or distributing alcoholic beverages to have a lisence, which costs money to apply for and maintain as well as being very strictly regulated. It's not that practical for anarchist organisations, which tend not to be swimming in capital, to run such a place. At least, I presume that's the reason; the idea that most anarchists are tee-total is too depressing to contemplate.I've been to 3 different anarchist "clubs", but they are usually in occupied places like "ungdomshuset" in Copenhagen. They generally don't give a shit about serving laws and are as a result full of irritating scene youngsters.

[Raúl Duke]

Wow! That was fucking cringe-worthy!

Whatever happened to anarchist press conferences like this:

http://praxeology.net/anarchistspeechcartoon.PNG

A press conference like this would surely have me visiting the place if I ever get to portland oregon. :lol::thumbup1::lol:


Think about it. A sympathetic cop could mean an inside guy, who can fudge paperwork and get comrades back out on the street. Putting it that way...hmmm. Although to be honest, I doubt that specific cop going into the red and black was going in so to have a nice chat with anarchists and maybe get convinced.


Because most countries require any premisis selling or distributing alcoholic beverages to have a lisence, which costs money to apply for and maintain as well as being very strictly regulated. It's not that practical for anarchist organisations, which tend not to be swimming in capital, to run such a place. At least, I presume that's the reason; the idea that most anarchists are tee-total is too depressing to contemplate. One day I will open an anarchist pub in America...one day. (and no it will not be vegan, but I would like it to be a co-op)

maybe

[McCroskey]

Everything has a class element to it. A cop is not a defender of the ruling classes per se. They can be just there out of the desire of protect and serve. There are many different kinds of cop.
Anarchist squats, at least in europe, always have a kind of oppresive atmosphere when I step in. If I am dressed in what could be described as "normal" clothes, If I listen to anything apart from punk, ska or reggae, if I happen to have a wife and kids, then I am looked upon with suspicion at best, and right condescendence at worst. A lot of them have such a social democrat ideology that makes me wanna throw up, but they don´t seem to care as long as it´s clear that for them, chaos and disorder are preferable to freedom and socialism, and as long that it´s clear that they run their cafes with strict fascist rules about what to wear and what to think. If this is the kind of "anarchist cafes" you guys are talking about, then no, I don´t want to be accepted in one of them, as they strike me as bored and angry middle class spoiled kids who would hate a cop just because they are a cop, whether it is in a capitalist society or in a socialist society. Sorry, there is a class component of every aspect of life, if you are not prepared to see it, and only enjoy massaging your petit burguois ego posing as a radical hippy, you are just one more useless anti-revolutionary bored kid looking for adventure, that only knows your interpretation of freedom: having the freedom to do as you please without responsibilities, the negation of socialism.
Not addressed to anyone in the forum, only to the governors of certain "anarchists cafes" which I have had the bad luck to be associated with.

[FriendlyLocalViking]

If I am dressed in what could be described as "normal" clothes...then I am looked upon with suspicion at best, and right condescendence at worst.

That's why I stopped hanging with Anarchists.

I mean, I dress nicely everyday. I can't help it, I've been raised an Englishman. We dress nicely.

These guys think that looking like crap is cool, so they criticise me for looking nice. Nu-uh guys, that's not how it works.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I thought that Vikings were filthy rag-clad barbarians?

[FriendlyLocalViking]

I thought that Vikings were filthy rag-clad barbarians?

Not this one :P

[bcbm]

Think about it. A sympathetic cop could mean an inside guy, who can fudge paperwork and get comrades back out on the street.

for every one cop who might be "sympathetic" after hanging around, there are probably about 500 (low estimate) who would only act sympathetic to gain more information and try to send more comrades to jail.

[FriendlyLocalViking]

for every one cop who might be "sympathetic" after hanging around, there are probably about 500 (low estimate) who would only act sympathetic to gain more information and try to send more comrades to jail.

You get that within the movement itself though. The cops want info, and there are a lot of people who will join a group, get info, and rat to the cops just to get some sort of reward.

[bcbm]

You get that within the movement itself though. The cops want info, and there are a lot of people who will join a group, get info, and rat to the cops just to get some sort of reward.

and generally we try to out snitches, not decide to just give up and let cops openly start hanging around and snooping.

[FriendlyLocalViking]

and generally we try to out snitches, not decide to just give up and let cops openly start hanging around and snooping.

You don't think I'm advocating that, do you? I'm just as "kick the cop out" as you guys are.

[bcbm]

then what is your point

[Robocommie]

then what is your point

Two of them, on his helmet.

/rimshot

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

That's why I stopped hanging with Anarchists.

I mean, I dress nicely everyday. I can't help it, I've been raised an Englishman. We dress nicely.

These guys think that looking like crap is cool, so they criticise me for looking nice. Nu-uh guys, that's not how it works.

I'm an Anarchist and I dress nicely. Though "nicely" is a matter of perspective.

[this is an invasion]

Think about it. A sympathetic cop could mean an inside guy, who can fudge paperwork and get comrades back out on the street.

You're joking, right?

[Jazzratt]

I've been to 3 different anarchist "clubs", but they are usually in occupied places like "ungdomshuset" in Copenhagen. They generally don't give a shit about serving laws and are as a result full of irritating scene youngsters.

Situations probably differ country to country, of course. America always struck me as a culture that has an unhealthy aversion to drinking.


I mean, I dress nicely everyday. I can't help it, I've been raised an Englishman. We dress nicely.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :lol:

Bollocks we do.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Situations probably differ country to country, of course. America always struck me as a culture that has an unhealthy aversion to drinking.

Two words: Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

I don't drink beer though even though this is beer city. I like mixed drinks.

[Jazzratt]

Two words: Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

I don't drink beer though even though this is beer city. I like mixed drinks.

Aye, there probably is a major drinking culture in America but the laws around it have always struck me as being quite conservative. Maybe I'm just talking out my arse though and relying on hackneyed stereotypes.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Aye, there probably is a major drinking culture in America but the laws around it have always struck me as being quite conservative. Maybe I'm just talking out my arse though and relying on hackneyed stereotypes.

The U.S. has more than one culture and seems to be one country only on political levels. Milwaukee, WI is culturally different than New York, NY is different from Miami, FL is different fromFort Worth, TX is very very different from San Francisco. In Milwaukee there is lots of drinking.

[Raúl Duke]

America always struck me as a culture that has an unhealthy aversion to drinking.It seems to me like a place of 2 extremes...where you have a few 18 year olds who are like "I don't need to drink to have a good time" and people who do keg stands...

I think America has a Freudian like fixation on alcohol like its a forbidden fruit kind of thing. Not the same attitude as in PR I believe, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

It seems to me like a place of 2 extremes...where you have a few 18 year olds who are like "I don't need to drink to have a good time" and people who do keg stands...

I think America has a Freudian like fixation on alcohol like its a forbidden fruit kind of thing. Not the same attitude as in PR I believe, but maybe I'm wrong.

I think the anti-drinking sentiment is the worst in places like Salt Lake City, Utah.

[FriendlyLocalViking]

I think the anti-drinking sentiment is the worst in places like Salt Lake City, Utah.

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMORMONS!!!! ! :lol:

[x359594]

Some people may join the police out of some good intentions; but see the Police Department as a social institution which will either wear those good apples out or they will be socialized into being a cop and all that implies...

Very true. It's the nature of policing under capitalism. Protection of property and social control are the main functions of the police, contrary to all pro-cop propaganda.

[bcbm]

Situations probably differ country to country, of course. America always struck me as a culture that has an unhealthy aversion to drinking.

come to just about any college town on a friday or saturday night and you will not only have a completely different opinion, you will be horrified.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Come to New Orleans, or even Austin TX...drinking is like a religion here. Although nothing I've ever seen compares to New Orleans, as far as city-wide binge drinking is concerned...alcoholism there is not only tolerated but actively encouraged and promoted.

[Ravachol]

That's why I stopped hanging with Anarchists.

I mean, I dress nicely everyday. I can't help it, I've been raised an Englishman. We dress nicely.

These guys think that looking like crap is cool, so they criticise me for looking nice. Nu-uh guys, that's not how it works.

Carefull lad, I'm sensitive when it comes to prada-meinhoff fashion! :cool:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

come to just about any college town on a friday or saturday night and you will not only have a completely different opinion, you will be horrified.

Oh God! SAVE ME FROM COLLEGE BROS!!!

[Ele'ill]

The Portland police got what they wanted which was media attention and more strategically they got every activist in the city buzzing with paranoia and insecurity. This is exactly why security culture is complete shite.

[bcbm]

security culture isn't shit when it is practiced properly.

[Ele'ill]

The problem is that it's almost never practiced properly and if it is it can still have negative affects.

[Ravachol]

The Portland police got what they wanted which was media attention and more strategically they got every activist in the city buzzing with paranoia and insecurity. This is exactly why security culture is complete shite.

That's paranoia culture, not security culture. Paranoia is just as bad as naievity.

[Ele'ill]

That's paranoia culture, not security culture. Paranoia is just as bad as naievity.


Security Culture almost always turns into paranoia culture.

[Echo1975]

I'm late to the party on this thread but I think the most interesting aspect of this event was overlooked (or else i totally missed it). This cop was not asked to leave immediately or refused service outright. The cafe owner served this cop coffee and accepted his money. It was only after the cop stopped to chat with another patron in the cafe (whom he knew) that the cafe owner asked him to leave as she felt if he lingered in the cafe it would cause others to be uncomfortable. This generated a lot of local interest obviously. A lot of the chatter I heard was that it was felt the owner was a hypocrite in serving the cop and only kicking him out after. I'm not an anarchist myself so really don't have much of an opinion.

For what it's worth, a follow up story reported that the cafe sales has gone way up in the days following the event. Any advertising is good advertising.

[La Comédie Noire]

Speaking of paranoia, undercover cops, and weed I think everyone is an undercover cop when i smoke weed.

Speaking of the German Revolution and Brown Shirts a lot of Brown Shirts hated the police and openly fought them in the streets. There were even cases of them running into court rooms and beating the living shit out of judges who handed down unsympathetic verdicts. You wouldn't have to go that far in 1930's Berlin to find a young man who was both a nazi and a red at different times. I believe Berlin even had a Socialist Police Chief, of course the SPD wasn't revolutionary. History's weird like that.

I think the cafe owner did the right thing, a cop doesn't go to the red and black cafe for coffee and donuts.

[Lulznet]

Shouldn't Anarchists be wanting cops to see their side? I mean what if this police officer has been disillusioned with the system as well and is wanting to change it? So just due to the fact that hes currently a police officer we're not going to allow him to aid in a potential revolution? :cool:

[Robocommie]

Shouldn't Anarchists be wanting cops to see their side? I mean what if this police officer has been disillusioned with the system as well and is wanting to change it? So just due to the fact that hes currently a police officer we're not going to allow him to aid in a potential revolution? :cool:

I'm not an anarchist, but even I see the problem with this. Even if the cop has a burning, passionate desire to "change the system" it doesn't matter, because anarchism is about smashing the system. You can't reform the state if you want to abolish the state.

The thing is, anarchists or no, we can't trust cops. They're the foot soldiers of the capitalist state. They draw paychecks for doing the state's will, which means enforcing private property relations, evicting people from their homes, putting the poor in prisons on minor drug charges, and they are of course the first line of resistance against popular discontent.

[Lulznet]

I'm not an anarchist, but even I see the problem with this. Even if the cop has a burning, passionate desire to "change the system" it doesn't matter, because anarchism is about smashing the system. You can't reform the state if you want to abolish the state.
I was encouraging the reforming of the state... I was encouraging said officer to join the revolutionary side and abandon what he does in order to 'smash the system.'

I'm just saying if we don't allow police officers to join our sides we're going to miss out on a potential group that could become useful at showing that what we're doing is the correct thing.

So in conclusion-- Basically what I was trying to say is that police officers should be allowed to convert to the Left... And pushing police officers out just due to them being police officers won't allow them to convert. :blushing:

Opinions?

[Raúl Duke]

As I mentioned before,
there are more receptive audiences for anarchism/leftism out there than the cops.

Hell, I'm of the opinion that even soldiers are more receptive than cops.

[counterblast]

Well, in my experience, there are some cops who took the job out of a genuine desire to help and protect people, so I think there are a few good guys in there. Mixed in with a lot of bad apples, of course.

Its been found that many rapists have a genuine desire to make their victims "happy"; but I definitely wouldn't call them "good guys".

My view on cops is the same; If you're doing something inherently oppressive, your intentions are irrelevant, you're still an oppressor.