Trotskyists who opposed WWII?

[Zanthorus]

I remember one of the ICC members on here saying that the ICC was willing to work with groups that descended from Bordigism and Council Commuism as well as Internationalist anarchists. They also mentioned Internationalist Trotskyists. My first thought was the Cliffite's, however the member said explicitly about Trotskyist groups that opposed world war two, and I've definitely seen Cliffite's that supported WWII. I would like if any IST'ers could clarify the general IST position on WWII though.

Anyway to cut to the chase, my main question is which Trotskyist group(let)s opposed support for any side during world war two?

[Palingenisis]

Maybe they mean the CWI? All Trots as far as I kniow opposed the war efforts of the capitalist allied powers if not the Soviet Union.

But I would have thought that the CWI's attitude to Social Democracy would be very off putting to the ICC.

[Universal Struggle]

This pisses me off, despite capitalists gaining from ww2, what should the armies of the west done, not fought the nazi's?

let hitlers ovens burn?

I mean, if i was a jew, or a gypsy, or handicapped, or black, or a worker in those days, i would of wanted the war.

many marxists joined their nationsarmy to fight fascism, like charles garry, huey newtons lawyer in his case huey newton vsfrey& heanes.

[GreenCommunism]

hitler was going to lose anyway, everyone should have opposed every nations just like in ww1, the only nation that perhaps shouldn't have been opposed would have been the soviet union, but then again they were trotskyist.

[Zanthorus]

Maybe they mean the CWI? All Trots as far as I kniow opposed the war efforts of the capitalist allied powers if not the Soviet Union.

But I would have thought that the CWI's attitude to Social Democracy would be very off putting to the ICC.

No, probably not the CWI. From what I gather internationalism is a set of positions for the ICC, not just a name. There are tons of Trot groups that call themselves internationals anyway.

I specifically thought of the Cliffites because their position on the Soviet Union post-1928 would bring them the closes to the communist left out of any Trot group that I'm aware of. But apart from on the issue of state-capitalism vs the degenerated workers state I'm not aware of any positions that Cliff and the IST held/hold that pit them against orthodox Trotskyism. And opposition to world war two was definitely mentioned.

[scarletghoul]

hitler was going to lose anyway, everyone should have opposed every nations just like in ww1, the only nation that perhaps shouldn't have been opposed would have been the soviet union, but then again they were trotskyist.
Well unlike WW1 it wasn't just a case of national armies fighting eachother for the sake of capitalists. Aside from the USSR, there was also partisan guerrilla groups fighting in every fascist-occupied territory, long after the national capitalist armies had surrenderd or withdrawn. The partisans were usually socialists/communists, especially in East Asia and across Europe. So a huge part of the war was Communists fighting Fascists/Capitalists/Imperialists, unlike WW1 which was just an intercapitalist conflict.

But yeah I dunno what the trot attitude would be.. Most should have supported the USSR as they saw it as a workers' state, albeit a deformed one. But then there's the crazy cliffites who hate em all so I dunno, its a good question.

[Palingenisis]

No, probably not the CWI. From what I gather internationalism is a set of positions for the ICC, not just a name. There are tons of Trot groups that call themselves internationals anyway.

.

The CWI though believe that nationalism is in and of itself essentially reactionary which was why I suggested them.

The Cliffites on the other hand have been a little to cosy with reactionary nationalists and support Hamas for instance which is something the ICC couldnt live with.

[Zanthorus]

The CWI though believe that nationalism is in and of itself essentially reactionary which was why I suggested them.

Aha. This is what comes of not keeping up with inter-trot conflicts :p

[Madvillainy]

IIRC there was a trotskyist group in Greece who were part of the Fourth International and they opposed WWII. They left the FI after the war in disgust at the position the FI had taken during the war.

[9]

^I know there was another, I am having trouble remembering where off the top of my head... I want to say France. I'm pretty sure the group I am talking about is actually still in existence. I'll try to look it up and post details when I find them.



I mean, if i was a jew, or a gypsy, or handicapped, or black, or a worker in those days, i would of wanted the war.

Yeah, being bombed to death is definitely preferable to being gassed to death or worked to death.... And being shot in the back of the head by Stalin's goons in the Soviet Union totally beats being shot in the back of the head by the Iron Guard at Bogdanovka... :rolleyes:

[Aurora]

I want to say France.
Lutte Ouvrier? thats only from reading the 4th international wiki though

[Kléber]

Anyway to cut to the chase, my main question is which Trotskyist group(let)s opposed support for any side during world war two?
Since Trotsky believed in unconditional military defense for the USSR and China, and said it would be ultra-left to organize strikes in the war industries of a country allied to the USSR or China during war, you could argue that there were technically none. However some Trotskyists in munitions plants did go on strike in Britain iirc.

If you are talking about Trotskyists who opposed the "Allied" imperialists then quite a few. At a time when the Comintern, its head on the chopping block, called colonial Britain and France as "people's allies" not to be rebelled against by their starving subjects, the Sri Lankan Trotskyists called for a revolution against the British occupiers and played an important role in the Cocos Islands Mutiny. The Vietnamese Trotskyists also fought against the French occupation forces who invaded southern Vietnam in 1945, but were basically wiped out by the combination of the French army and Viet Minh assassins who saw a temporary alliance with the colonizer as a good way to stomp out their rivals on the left.


Maybe they mean the CWI?
The CWI did not exist during the second imperialist war. The Fourth International still barely continued as a united group then, in spite of the mass assassination campaign against its leaders by the GPU, infiltration with wreckers ("We'll build Trotsky his Fourth International for him") and near-destruction of its Soviet, Chinese, Greek, Spanish and Vietnamese sections..


Well unlike WW1 it wasn't just a case of national armies fighting eachother for the sake of capitalists. Aside from the USSR, there was also partisan guerrilla groups fighting in every fascist-occupied territory, long after the national capitalist armies had surrenderd or withdrawn.
The Soviet and Chinese people won the victory in spite of their reactionary governments who had been allied to Hitler prior to being surprise-attacked.


IIRC there was a trotskyist group in Greece who were part of the Fourth International and they opposed WWII. They left the FI after the war in disgust at the position the FI had taken during the war.
Yes but they also opposed the Nazi occupiers, until they were betrayed and their leaders shot by KKE.


Yeah, being bombed to death is definitely preferable to being gassed to death or worked to death....
Or being starved to death by the millions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943


Lutte Ouvrier? thats only from reading the 4th international wiki though
The French Trotskyists took an active part in the partisan resistance, fought and were gunned down alongside the Stalinists and other resistance groups. But they did not, like the Stalinists, take a pro-Nazi position during 1939-41, nor did they support French colonialism after 1945 like the official "Communists" who cheered intervention in Algeria (while the Great Leader was still alive).

[black magick hustla]

^I know there was another, I am having trouble remembering where off the top of my head... I want to say France. I'm pretty sure the group I am talking about is actually still in existence. I'll try to look it up and post details when I find them.



Yeah, being bombed to death is definitely preferable to being gassed to death or worked to death.... And being shot in the back of the head by Stalin's goons in the Soviet Union totally beats being shot in the back of the head by the Iron Guard at Bogdanovka... :rolleyes:

there was a crisis in international trotskyism due to the war that led to a few splits. you had grandizo munis and his izquierda bolshevik-leninista in spain, you had stirnas and his group in greece, you had the the group around castoriadis, and in the US there was the johnson-forrest tendency. so there where a few trots who did this.

[9]

^right, I am aware of the history regarding Trotskyist support for WWII, but I am less clear on the particulars of all the different splits. I was thinking more along the lines of Trots who subsequently still considered themselves Trots. I know Munis became a left communist afterwards, and I thought Stirnas did as well and that Castoriadis became some kind of anarchist or something.
FWIW, though, I couldn't find any verification for my claim about the French Trotskyists. I am not sure where I heard that, but either I am confused about it, or it was bad information.