Gaza/Israel

[Che a chara]

We don't have a thread for this topic over here, so let's get this party started.

The video footage released by Israel was obviously cut and edited to just show human rights and peace activists attacking IDF terrorists. The full footage apparently shows that that was the second batch of IDF terorrists boarding the ship and that the first ones came down and acted aggressively and opened fire and they were looking for a reaction .... and they got it.

No matter what, Israel acted inhumanely and were totally provocative. These are supposedly professional commandos, highly trained to deal with every scenario ...... except deal with marbles, slingshots and poles :rolleyes:

The main US networks are as usual silencing the truth, brainwashing the many and making out like Israel where under severe attack. If there is nothing to hide, everyone will agree to an independent UN inquiry.

[Che a chara]

Rachel Corrie latest:

Activists deny Israel navy boarded Gaza bound aid ship 'Rachel Corrie'

Spokesman for Cyprus-based Free Gaza group says IDF ships have intercepted the aid ship and have not boarded it, contrary to an earlier Twitter report.

The Israeli navy intercepted and was shadowing an Irish-owned aid ship bound for Gaza on Saturday, but a spokeswoman for the activists aboard said an earlier report that troops were aboard the vessel was wrong.

Al Jazeera television quoted a journalist aboard the vessel saying: "We can see some Israeli ships a little away from us.

"They are following us. There has been no contact."

An Israeli military spokeswoman said she had no information.
The clarification came after conflicting reports emerged early on Saturday morning over whether Israel had boarded a Gaza-bound aid ship, which by the early hours was just a few dozen miles from the blockaded Gaza strip.

The Cyprus-based Free Gaza group used micro-blogging website Twitter to announce that troops from three three Israeli naval boats, which had been tailing the ship, had boarded peacefully at 5:50 A.M. Israel time, with no struggle or injuries.

The Reuters news agency also reported that the ship had been siezed - but later said that activists on board had denied having any direct contact with the Israeli navy, claiming at around at 6:30 A.M that they were still being shadowed.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said she had no information. Israel had said it would not let the ship through.

The activists' latest attempt to crack the blockade will test Israel's resolve as it faces a wave of international outrage over its deadly takeover of another aid ship earlier this week.

Diplomatic fallout and protests across Europe and the Muslim world have increased pressure to end the embargo Israel imposed after the Islamic militant Hamas group seized power in Gaza three years ago.

Shortly after 5 A.M. Israel time, Greta Berlin of the Free Gaza movement that sent the 1,200-ton Rachel Corrie said the vessel was 35 miles from Gaza's shores.

"There were two warships in the back of them ... and a smaller boat was approaching," Berlin said from the movement's headquarters in Cyprus, citing a passenger on board.

Activists on board the Irish boat, including a Nobel Peace Prize laureate, insisted they would not resist if Israeli soldiers tried to take over their vessel. They rejected an Israeli appeal to bring the ship to an Israeli port instead.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told his Cabinet on Thursday the Irish boat would not be allowed to reach Gaza. On Friday, Israel's foreign minister said the policy had not changed.

"We have made it clear to the Irish and others, no ship will reach Gaza without a security inspection," Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman told Channel 1 TV.

The Cambodian-flagged Rachel Corrie - named for an American college student who was crushed to death by a bulldozer in 2003 while protesting Israeli house demolitions in Gaza - was carrying hundreds of tons of aid, including wheelchairs, medical supplies and cement.

This latest attempt to breach the blockade differs significantly from the flotilla the Israeli troops intercepted on Monday, killing eight Turks and an American after being set upon by a group of activists.

Nearly 700 activists had joined that operation, most of them aboard the lead boat from Turkey that was the scene of the violence. That boat, the Mavi Marmara, was sponsored by an Islamic aid group from Turkey, the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedom and Humanitarian Relief. Israel outlawed the group, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, in 2008 because of alleged ties to Hamas.

The group is not on the U.S. State Department list of terror organizations, however.

By contrast, the Rachel Corrie was carrying just 11 passengers, whose effort was mainly sponsored by the Free Gaza movement, a Cyprus-based group that has renounced violence.

Irish Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Corrigan told The Associated Press from the ship Friday that the group would offer no resistance if Israeli forces came aboard.

"We will sit down," she said in a telephone interview. "They will probably arrest us ... But there will be no resistance."

Netanyahu has instructed the Israeli military to avoid harming the passengers on board the Irish boat, a participant at Thursday night's Cabinet meeting said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because the meeting was closed.

Foreign Ministry director Yossi Gal urged the activists to dock in the southern Israeli port of Ashdod and promised to transfer all cargo except any weapons or weapons components to Gaza. But the activists resisted the appeal.

Israel has no desire to board the ship, Gal told reporters. If the ship decides to sail to the port of Ashdod, then we will ensure its safe arrival and will not board it.

Corrigan said the activists would not be diverted anywhere else. We head to Gaza in order to deliver the humanitarian aid and to break the siege of Gaza.

The former U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Iraq, Denis Halliday, said from the ship that trade unions and government officials had inspected its cargo.

So we are 100 percent confident that there is nothing that is offensive or dangerous, he told Israel's Channel 2 TV.

Still, he acknowledged that Israel might object to the 500 tons of cement on board, which the army maintains the militants can use to fight it.

In Washington, the State Department said U.S. officials had been in touch with multiple countries, including the Israeli and Irish governments, about the latest effort.

Everyone wants to avoid a repetition of this tragic incident, spokesman P.J. Crowley said.

Later, National Security Council spokesman Mike Hammer said the Rachel Corrie should sail to Ashdod in the interest of safety.

International condemnation continued Friday, with protests in Syria, Greece, Mauritania, Bahrain and Malaysia, where some demonstrators burned Israeli flags and carried mock coffins. In Norway, the military canceled a seminar scheduled for later this month because an Israeli army officer was to have lectured.

Israel claims activists ambushed the Israeli commandos as they rappelled on board the Mavi Marmara from helicopters on Monday, and the military and Turkish TV have released videotape showing soldiers under attack.

Returning activists admitted fighting with the Israeli commandos but insisted they acted in self defense because the ships were being boarded in international waters by a military force.

On Friday, the Israeli military released what it said was an edited radio
exchange with the flotilla, captured from its own communications equipment, in which unidentified male voices were heard making anti-Semitic and anti-American comments. It was impossible to independently authenticate the tape, which the military said pieced together segments of exchanges.

The Israeli Defense Forces have been criticized for seizing most video and audio from the Mavi Marmara. The Foreign Press Association, which represents hundreds of journalists in Israel and the Palestinian Territories, demanded Thursday that the military stop using the captured material without permission.

Meanwhile, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh said the Islamic militants have refused to accept any aid from the Israeli-intercepted flotilla. We are not seeking to fill our (bellies), we are looking to break the Israeli siege on Gaza, he said.

The standoff has particularly strained Israel's relationship with once-close ally Turkey.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan kept up the tough rhetoric on Friday, telling a crowd that nobody should test Turkey's patience.

And Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc announced Turkey was downsizing its economic and defense cooperation with Israel.



http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/activists-deny-israel-navy-boarded-gaza-bound-aid-ship-rachel-corrie-1.294265#article_comments

[Ele'ill]

I'm following the story too.


I posted a link to the video in another thread, it should still be up.

[Che a chara]

Rachel Corrie steaming on toward Gaza

The Israeli military says new Gaza-bound international aid ship Rachel Corrie is steaming on toward the Gaza Strip, not taking notice of calls to redirect the vessel to the Israeli port of Ashdod.

"We indicated several times to the organizers aboard the ship that they should head to the port of Ashdod as there is a blockade in force on the Gaza Strip, but they ignored our appeals and are continuing to head towards Gaza," a military spokeswoman told AFP.

Earlier reports said on Saturday that Israeli forces intercepted the Irish ship, which is seeking to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip.

According to Press TV correspondent Yousef al-Helou, several Israeli warships surrounded the ship.

The correspondent further added that the communication system of the ship has been completely cut off by Israeli forces.

The ship is named after Rachel Corrie, a US activist killed in 2003 as she tried to prevent an Israeli military bulldozer from razing a Palestinian home in Rafah.

AGB/CS/HRF

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129101&sectionid=351020202

[Che a chara]

REPORTS THAT IDF SCUM HAVE BOARDED THE SHIP NOW :mad:

[Che a chara]

Rocket fired from Gaza into Israel

[Che a chara]

the rachel corrie should reach gazan waters within half hour. good luck folks

[Che a chara]

Israeli spokesperson said they hope not to be forced to use violence, but they will use all means to stop the RC

[Che a chara]

Rachel Corrie captain offered boat to be searched again in the middle of the sea in order to continue to #Gaza but #Israel refused 5 minutes ago via TweetDeck

[Che a chara]

RC has been stolen by Israeli terrorist scum, and all on board have been kidnapped

[Che a chara]

conflicting reports that the israeli ships are still shadowing the RC and are about to board and use force if necessary any minute now as it is near gazan waters

[Che a chara]

israeli army attacking reporters. scum

[Che a chara]

confirmed that the ship has been forcibly seized :(

[Che a chara]

http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/Gaza_TVNews/2010/06/05/Gaza-TV-News-RACHEL-CORRIE-HAS-ARRESTED-BY-ISRAELI-NAVY?displayMode=website

[Che a chara]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-boards-gaza-bound-ship-rachel-corrie-1.294265

[Che a chara]

quick question, if Israel says that they are at war and that gives them an excuse to invade and steal a boat and kidnap it's passengers, can Hamas not do the same to Israeli ships ?

[Bud Struggle]

quick question, if Israel says that they are at war and that gives them an excuse to invade and steal a boat and kidnap it's passengers, can Hamas not do the same to Israeli ships ?

Yea, but Hamas has no ships and no fighting force that campare with the Israelis.

[Che a chara]

Yea, but Hamas has no ships and no fighting force that campare with the Israelis.

yeah well hypothetically.

wonder what the reaction would be ?

[Che a chara]

Apparently George Gallaway has announced that there will be another 2 convoys leaving for Gaza on Ramadan, one from Turkey :)

[Bud Struggle]

yeah well hypothetically.

wonder what the reaction would be ?

War.

[HankMorgan]

Imagine the ships landing in Gaza full of rockets. Imagine the rockets fired into Israel. Imagine the Israeli response as they try to stop the rockets landing on their people.

None of this is hard to imagine. There would be bloodshed in Gaza. Many, many lives would be lost.

Israeli naval forces could have sunk all the ships without losses to their own but instead they put their people in harms way by boarding the ships. This saved lives in the flotilla AND IT SAVED LIVES IN GAZA.

For this Israel was condemned.

None of this is hard to figure out. I read around on the internet. People get it even if their leaders don't.

[Tyrlop]

Imagine the ships landing in Gaza full of rockets. Imagine the rockets fired into Israel. Imagine the Israeli response as they try to stop the rockets landing on their people.

None of this is hard to imagine. There would be bloodshed in Gaza. Many, many lives would be lost.

Israeli naval forces could have sunk all the ships without losses to their own but instead they put their people in harms way by boarding the ships. This saved lives in the flotilla AND IT SAVED LIVES IN GAZA.

For this Israel was condemned.

None of this is hard to figure out. I read around on the internet. People get it even if their leaders don't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDQCoIXto1U
Why did the Israel Navy choose the most violent way stopping the ships?

[HankMorgan]

Israel could have sunk the ships without loss of Israeli lives. Think. Missiles, torpedos, gunfire, bombs from aircraft all could have sunk the ships without placing Israeli lives at risk.

The least violent and riskiest option is the one Israel chose.

[#FF0000]

Imagine the ships landing in Gaza full of rockets. Imagine the rockets fired into Israel. Imagine the Israeli response as they try to stop the rockets landing on their people.

None of this is hard to imagine. There would be bloodshed in Gaza. Many, many lives would be lost.

Israeli naval forces could have sunk all the ships without losses to their own but instead they put their people in harms way by boarding the ships. This saved lives in the flotilla AND IT SAVED LIVES IN GAZA.

For this Israel was condemned.

None of this is hard to figure out. I read around on the internet. People get it even if their leaders don't.

People in Gaza could mortar Israel 24/7 and they would be fully justified because as occupiers, everything the Israeli government does against Palestinians is an aggressive act and Palestinians can defend themselves.

[#FF0000]

Israel could have sunk the ships without loss of Israeli lives. Think. Missiles, torpedos, gunfire, bombs from aircraft all could have sunk the ships without placing Israeli lives at risk.

The least violent and riskiest option is the one Israel chose.

They could have also waited until the boat was in their national waters instead of, you know, breaking international law.

Also ramming the ship is probably even less risky than dropping commandos on board and shooting people.

[#FF0000]

And let me just leave this here too

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7388/1275544687698.gif

[HankMorgan]

Best Mod, your graph says it all. Time for the people of Gaza to pick a new way.

[#FF0000]

Best Mod, your graph says it all. Time for the people of Gaza to pick a new way.

Oh, let me go dig up that old link I have that explains what IDF soldiers do to people who "pick a new way".

Just so I don't leave you guys in suspense, I'll give you a hint: It involves gunning down peaceful protesters.

[#FF0000]

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/bono.html

There we are.

[#FF0000]

Oh and here's a video of some more violence you can rationalize and justify. Fun fact: Someone dies just a few feet away from the camera!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlbzuZ_50mU&feature=player_embedded

[HankMorgan]

Best Mod, I skimmed the info at the link you posted.

I think if I were a leader in Gaza, I'd look for a way forward that doesn't lead to the destruction of my city. There has to be a more practical way.

[#FF0000]

Best Mod, I skimmed the info at the link you posted.

I think if I were a leader in Gaza, I'd look for a way forward that doesn't lead to the destruction of my city. There has to be a more practical way.

Oh sure lobbing mortars at a country run by people who think they can do just about anything and be justified in doing so isn't the practical or safe thing to do, but like I showed, non-violent protests gets met with IDF violence as well.

[#FF0000]

To be completely honest here, I think that there are people in Israel's government who want nothing more than to rid all of Palestine of the Palestinians, by any means necessary. What recourse is there for someone when faced with a genocidal government that's being funded and armed by the West?

[Bud Struggle]

^^^^^That was pretty brutal stuff. That kind of thing has to be shown to a broader array of American people.

[#FF0000]

^^^^^That was pretty brutal stuff. That kind of thing has to be shown to a broader array of American people.

Yeah, as someone who will proclaim "death to israel" with confidence, I was shocked to see them actually shoot a guy. I was thinking "Oh it was a rubber bullet or a bean bag" and then you see him bleeding out in the desert and carried away in a hearse.

[Bud Struggle]

What the Palestinians have to do is a full scale media blitz in the USA just so people could see the kinds of things that are done with American money. I mean the Palestinians have to hire a first class ad company and hammer this stuff across. If Americans knew what was going on I'm sure a lot of US funding would stop.

[#FF0000]

What the Palestinians have to do is a full scale media blitz in the USA just so people could see the kinds of things that are done with American money. I mean the Palestinians have to hire a first class ad company and hammer this stuff across. If Americans knew what was going on I'm sure a lot of US funding would stop.

A lot of very very very wealthy and powerful people have a lot of love for Israel, so anything any Palestinian movement can afford could probably be outdone by anything supporters of Israel can pay to have put together.

At least supporters of Palestine have the internet.

[Bud Struggle]

A lot of very very very wealthy and powerful people have a lot of love for Israel, so anything any Palestinian movement can afford could probably be outdone by anything supporters of Israel can pay to have put together.

At least supporters of Palestine have the internet.

Here's an article from the New York Review of Books I posted a while ago here on RevLeft (before the Ships to Gaza tragedy.) The author makes the point that Jewish support for Israel in the US is decreasing.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/jun/10/failure-american-jewish-establishment/?page=1

[#FF0000]

Here's an article from the New York Review of Books I posted a while ago here on RevLeft (before the Ships to Gaza tragedy.) The author makes the point that Jewish support for Israel in the US is decreasing.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/jun/10/failure-american-jewish-establishment/?page=1

Yeah, I think that's a good thing. But I think the strongest (read: most powerful/rich) supporters of Israel have actually been really fucking weird apocalyptic Christians. I'll have to find a link soon.

[Che a chara]

What is the alternative for the Palestinians ? without Hamas' resistance (rightly or wrongly), the Israeli's would have the notion that they are pushovers and would steal more land and take advantage of a weaker position.

It's up to the U.N. and the US to put their fucking foot down and do the right thing. That is the only correct and humane scenario and how the fuck it hasn't happened yet lies in the media brainwash and all of capitalism and imperialism's failures.

Let's hope there is a wake-up call and a silver lining in the recent tragedies caused by the Zionist terrorists.

[Che a chara]

This is being portrayed as a fake IDF video. I'm sure it can easily be debunked or clarified by identifying those on board. But in any case, it looks very staged and not very aggressive. Also look at 2.01, how was there a camera/CCTV positioned there ? and the water doesn't look very rough (i.e. middle of the sea), actually it looks as it the 'ship' is at the shore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlE7kmSCf9I

What do you think ?

[#FF0000]

That is the worst fucking greenscreen effect I've ever seen in my fucking life at 2.02 onwards. Jesus Christ. I started watching that video giving Israel the benefit of the doubt, too, because even if it was real the protesters are 100% justified in attacking armed gangsters that drop into their boat in international waters.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

^ I do agree that from 2:02 onwards it seems greenscreened. This clip is not anything to go by for a number of reasons: 1, if it is genuine, they were merely fighting against a force of aggression in international waters. 2, There is what seems to be a very obvious green screen effect in the end of the film. 3, None of these people have been identified and 4, Israel has already blatantly manipulated audio and even admitted to it.

If this scenario was applied to the North/South Korea conflicts even with all of the same "evidence", North Korea would be paying the price for it as we speak.

[#FF0000]

It's not even like they tried. It's a 2 second loop of some waves and it doesn't even look right.

[Ele'ill]

http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20100606044452707

[Ele'ill]

It's like Israel knows they could admit to murdering the activists and nobody would do a fucking thing.

The terrible green screen affect is a big fuck you to global human rights initiatives.

[#FF0000]

New photos emerge showing IDF soldiers being treated by the people they shot at. Go figure.

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/blog-post-israel-hasbara-fails-again-pics-sho

[Mindtoaster]

New photos emerge showing IDF soldiers being treated by the people they shot at. Go figure.

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/blog-post-israel-hasbara-fails-again-pics-sho

I hope they rubbed mercury on those swabs

Fuck Israel

[Che a chara]

Israel navy kills four Palestinian 'militants' off Gaza


Israel's navy has shot and killed four Palestinians wearing diving gear off the Gaza coast, officials say.

The Israeli military said it believed those on board the boat were planning a terrorist attack.

Hamas officials in Gaza say four bodies have been recovered and two people are missing.

It comes a week after nine pro-Palestinian activists died in an Israeli raid on an aid flotilla trying to break Israel's blockade of Gaza.

Israel withdrew its forces from Gaza in 2005, but still controls the sea off the territory's coast.

The Israeli military said the boat was carrying "a squad of terrorists wearing diving suits on their way to execute a terror attack".

A spokesman said a naval force had hit its target, but did not give any more details of the operation.

The country's Haaretz newspaper quoted an Israeli army source as saying the incident took place at about 0430 local time (0130 GMT), and that the boat had been heading north to Israel from waters off the Nuseirat refugee camp in central Gaza.

The al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a militant group linked to Fatah, has reported that four of its men were killed and a fifth is missing, according to Israeli media.

The men had been training off the Gaza coast, the militant group was quoted as having claimed.

The Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) said there were no Israeli casualties.

There has been sporadic rocket fire out of Gaza into Israel since last week's naval attack on the Gaza aid flotilla.

Israeli Foreign Ministry official Yigal Palmour said the latest incident reinforced the need for Israel to maintain a tight cordon around Gaza.

"This is the explanation why the border, both land and sea border with Gaza need to be strictly and tightly controlled. We can't allow Hamas to carry out attacks at will on Israelis, on Israeli territory," he told Reuters TV.

The latest Israeli operation comes as Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas visits Turkey for a regional security summit along with Iran and Syria.

Mr Abbas, who heads the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, is expected to pay his respects to the nine activists killed last week, eight of whom were Turks and one a US national of Turkish origin.

Mr Abbas's government is the bitter rival of Hamas, which took control of Gaza from his Fatah movement in 2007.

The deaths have sparked global condemnation but defiance from Israel, which insists it has the right to defend itself.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has accused Israel of "state terrorism", and is calling Gaza a "historic cause for Turkey".

Another aid ship, the Irish-owned Rachel Corrie, was intercepted by Israel on Saturday and officials have begun deporting its crew and activists.
'European role'

France and Britain have called for Israel to accept a "credible and transparent" investigation into the deadly Israeli raid on 31 May.

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner suggested that the EU could play a bigger role to ensure that humanitarian supplies reached Gaza, and that weapons were kept out.

Mr Kouchner also said Europe needed to work harder to convince Israel that its blockade of Gaza was not working, and nor was it in the long-term interests of the region.

His comments followed talks with British counterpart William Hague, who said Europe would maintain pressure on Israel.

But Israel's US ambassador Michael Oren said his country would reject the proposals, and reiterated that an internal inquiry would be held.

Meanwhile, the Iranian Red Crescent has announced it will send two aid ships to Egypt for onward delivery to Gaza through the Rafah crossing later this week, Iranian state media report.

Also on Monday, US Vice-President Joe Biden met with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in Sharm el-Sheikh.

They had a 90-minute meeting "about a full range of bilateral issues", a spokesman for the US Embassy said, but there were no further details of the discussions released.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10252229.stm

(Video in link)

[Che a chara]

Resistance is not a crime. Trying to tack back what rightfully belongs to you is not a crime.

I echo the previous sentiments, Fuck Israel.

[Bud Struggle]

The question I have is what is wrong with Egypt? Why won't Egypt allow goods and services to pass through its borders? In a (passive) way they are as bad as Israel.

[RGacky3]

The question I have is what is wrong with Egypt? Why won't Egypt allow goods and services to pass through its borders? In a (passive) way they are as bad as Israel.

Except that they are passive, but yeah I agree with you.

I'd like to have a little what if game,

what if, it was Iranian commandos that did the same thing to a humanitarian boat in international waters and shot a bunch of unarmed (except for stuff you'd see in the westside story) activists including an unarmed American citizen 4 times in the head, what would the American reaction be?

This is arpartied, and crimes against humanity, and the attack is blatently illigal, and the United States is ultimately responsible, because they are what empowers isreal to do this, Obama can stop this at any second if he wanted too.

[freepalestine]

The question I have is what is wrong with Egypt? Why won't Egypt allow goods and services to pass through its borders? In a (passive) way they are as bad as Israel.yet they dont occupy the palestinians-although the mubarak regime is past its sell by date.they do as they are told by their paymasters in america.

[Bud Struggle]

yet they dont occupy the palestinians-although the mubarak regime is past its sell by date.they do as they are told by their paymasters in america.


After Israel--Egypt receives the second highest amount of US aid.

They should be held accountable also.

[Dean]

The question I have is what is wrong with Egypt? Why won't Egypt allow goods and services to pass through its borders? In a (passive) way they are as bad as Israel.

Its not passive. Its a deliberate act by Egypt which is a client state of the US.

[Bud Struggle]

Its not passive. Its a deliberate act by Egypt which is a client state of the US.


Then they suck. Agreed? It sucks double, really. Bad enough that the US pays Isreal--but then they pay Egypt not to bother Israel. Personally I think the Arab world should get on top of Egypt for this.

[freepalestine]

Then they suck. Agreed? It sucks double, really. Bad enough that the US pays Isreal--but then they pay Egypt not to bother Israel. Personally I think the Arab world should get on top of Egypt for this.
maybe they would if they werent nearly all controlled by the u.s.
note bliden in egypt yesterday.the crossing at rafah is still open for the time being..

[Dean]

Then they suck. Agreed? It sucks double, really. Bad enough that the US pays Isreal--but then they pay Egypt not to bother Israel. Personally I think the Arab world should get on top of Egypt for this.
Why should "the Arabs" get up in arms about this? Why not the Israelis? Why not the British or the US? What special responsibilities do "Arabs" have, besides ethnic identity (which you've already "turned a blind eye" to :laugh:)?

[Bud Struggle]

maybe they would if they werent nearly all controlled by the u.s.
note bliden in egypt yesterday.the crossing at rafah is still open for the time being..

I agree. The US pays Egypt a pile of money to leave Israel alone. I can't see any other reason for it. Why else would the US care about Egypt?

Really I believe all US money should be stoped to that part of the world. Except for extreme humanitarian needs--actually I think it would be a good idea if the US sent relief ships to Gaza.

[freepalestine]

I agree. The US pays Egypt a pile of money to leave Israel al.needs--actually I think it would be a good idea if the US sent relief ships to Gaza.why are you on a leftist forum?

[Bud Struggle]

why are you on a leftist forum?

I'm a Christian Socialist--and I am in OI. ;) Also, I'm interested in worker and progressive social movements. I'm a member of the Communist Party of the USA and a former member of the IWW. I don't kneejerk to every whim of trendy Socialist movements but I do beileve in Social reform. I have a number of people in my employ and I take their wellbeing very seriously. While I don't plan on going "Commie" in the near future--I do listen and learn a bit to make a better life for my workers.

Further, I don't believe that being Pro Palestinian is being Leftist. Being anti Israel is, though.


How about you--you a One Note Johnny or do you post on other issues besides for Palestine?

http://www.revleft.com/vb/search.php?searchid=2470287

Ouch! Kind of says it all.

[Bud Struggle]

Why should "the Arabs" get up in arms about this? Why not the Israelis? Why not the British or the US? What special responsibilities do "Arabs" have, besides ethnic identity (which you've already "turned a blind eye" to :laugh:)?

Because the Arab (I should have said Moslem) world is already on top of everything that goes on in Palestine. Just because I (speaking as a Socialist) think ethnic and religious identity is wrong, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and have very a very potent ability to change the course of events.

[RGacky3]

I'm a Christian Socialist--and I am in OI.

No your not, if your a christian socialist then I'm a buddist Fascist.


Also, I'm interested in worker and progressive social movements.

Based on your posts your only interested in trying to belittle them.


I'm a member of the Communist Party of the USA and a former member of the IWW

Never a legitimate member of the IWW, you lied when applying.


I don't kneejerk to every whim of trendy Socialist movements but I do beileve in Social reform.

trendy Socialist movements? I don't know when they've been trendy.

What social reform?


I have a number of people in my employ and I take their wellbeing very seriously.

As do all Bosses, as do kings, as does Castro, all to a point, does'nt make you leftist by any stretch.


While I don't plan on going "Commie" in the near future--I do listen and learn a bit to make a better life for my workers.

The benevolent dictator :)


Just because I (speaking as a Socialist)

Really? Since when?

[Dean]

Because the Arab (I should have said Moslem) world is already on top of everything that goes on in Palestine. Just because I (speaking as a Socialist) think ethnic and religious identity is wrong, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and have very a very potent ability to change the course of events.

Is it? The Muslims I've spoken to have no more interest in the issue than anyone else.

The responsible players in the system are responsible for resolving and uprooting the racist regime. These responsibilities span various religious and ethnic identities.

Your about-face here is telling. When we discuss Israeli white nationalism, you decry us as "unfairly focusing on ethnicity." When you intimate that Arabs (or Muslims!) have responsibilities related to their ethno-religious identity, you are moralizing based on ethnicity yet you don't see the obvious inconsistency here.

[Bud Struggle]

No your not, if your a christian socialist then I'm a buddist Fascist. Brother, you're a refuge for the land of OZ.


Based on your posts your only interested in trying to belittle them. Your "issues." Not mine.




Never a legitimate member of the IWW, you lied when applying. Never lied. Didn't mention every little thing--but we live such complicated lives. ;)

etc....I answered his question. Gack--just because you don't like it--doesn't mean I can't do what I want to do. Now and AFTER the Revolution. :)

[Bud Struggle]

Is it? The Muslims I've spoken to have no more interest in the issue than anyone else.
OK fine. Not for me.


The responsible players in the system are responsible for resolving and uprooting the racist regime. These responsibilities span various religious and ethnic identities. I agree there. What I don't want is one racist regime surplanting another racist regime--and that's what we seem to be getting. THAT is my problem. You seem to accept some racism and decry other racism. Dean, you have some fuzzy idea of fairness that comes form what was done in the long ago past. Today's Israelis (for the vast part)--were born in Palestine--they aren't European. They belong there as much as anyone else. But so do the people that owned the land before them--there should be no special treatment for anyone. Just as there should be no special treatment for the French over the Moslem immigrants.

The problem is you can't exclude one "invader" without excluding all of the others. There has to be a universal norm and that is what I'm looking for--not just something that feels good.


Your about-face here is telling. When we discuss Israeli white nationalism, you decry us as "unfairly focusing on ethnicity." When you intimate that Arabs (or Muslims!) have responsibilities related to their ethno-religious identity, you are moralizing based on ethnicity yet you don't see the obvious inconsistency here.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist! I'm saying in realpolitik it should be taken into account. You are doing the same thing--I'm sure you have no problem with Moslems in France or Germany. The problem with the Israelis isn't that they are THERE. The problem is that they are Jewish exclusivists. And that sadly is the problem with Palestinians--they are Palestinian exclusivists. And that is what I object to.

[Dean]

I agree there. What I don't want is one racist regime surplanting another racist regime--and that's what we seem to be getting. THAT is my problem. You seem to accept some racism and decry other racism. Dean, you have some fuzzy idea of fairness that comes form what was done in the long ago past. Today's Israelis (for the vast part)--were born in Palestine--they aren't European. They belong there as much as anyone else. But so do the people that owned the land before them--there should be no special treatment for anyone. Just as there should be no special treatment for the French over the Moslem immigrants.
When have I ever proposed anything of the sort?



The problem is you can't exclude one "invader" without excluding all of the others. There has to be a universal norm and that is what I'm looking for--nust just something that feels good.



I'm not saying it doesn't exist! I'm saying in realpolitik it should be taken into account. You are doing the same thing--I'm sure you have no problem with Moslems in France or Germany. The problem with the Israelis isn't that they are THERE. The problem is that they are Jewish exclusivists. And that sadly is the problem with Palestinians--they are Palestinian exclusivists. And that is what I object to.
Are the Palestinian exclusivists? Are the Israelis exclusivists? The fact is that this isn't the topic of discussion, nor has it ever been.

The topic has always been, for western liberals at least, to shift the blame to the Arabs by whatever means necessary: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/jun/10/failure-american-jewish-establishment/?pagination=false

There isn't any value in that, though. Neither is there value in your and graffic's divergent arguments.

[Bud Struggle]

When have I ever proposed anything of the sort? Quite honestly, I don't know wghat you are suggesting. So what would you want?


Are the Palestinian exclusivists? Are the Israelis exclusivists? The fact is that this isn't the topic of discussion, nor has it ever been.And why not? We are living in the present--not 1949. What is done is done--now we have to move forward, not redo the past--that is not what Communism is all about is it?


The topic has always been, for western liberals at least, to shift the blame to the Arabs by whatever means necessary: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/jun/10/failure-american-jewish-establishment/?pagination=false (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/jun/10/failure-american-jewish-establishment/?pagination=false)

I started a thread on that every article.


There isn't any value in that, though. Neither is there value in your and graffic's divergent arguments. I can't speak for graffic, but my point is VERY CLEAR and it where all the value in this discussion lies. We shouldn't set up another "Israel" with different players. We should be honest and fair all the way around. We can't go back in history and we can't reinvent the past--we can only move forward with the tools we have.

[graffic]

@Dean

Since you keep wanting to make it into a race issue Dean, here is a question I would love to hear you answer: Do you think that there were/are severely racist anti-Jewish sentiments held by some Arab people in Israel, or in the surrounding area?

[Che a chara]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100609/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gaza_blockade


JERUSALEM – Israel eased a three-year blockade of Gaza Wednesday to allow in some previously banned food items in an effort to defuse the worldwide furor over its deadly raid on a Gaza-bound international flotilla. But critics said the step falls far short of what is needed in the impoverished Palestinian territory.

In the first tangible step to temper the uproar caused by last week's raid, Israel only narrowly expanded the list of items that can enter by adding little more than snack foods and spices. It did not permit the most sought after items, such as cement, steel and other materials needed to rebuild the war-devastated territory and it was unlikely to ease international pressure.

"The international community is united in seeking an urgent and fundamental change in Israel's policy of blockading Gaza," said Maxwel Gaylard, the U.N.'s most senior humanitarian official in the Palestinian territories. "A modest expansion of the restrictive list of goods allowed into Gaza falls well short of what is needed. We need a fundamental change and an opening of crossings for commercial goods."

Israeli officials said the move was meant to defuse pressure for an international investigation of the May 31 raid. The clashes broke out after Israeli naval commandos boarded one of six ships on the flotilla and some of the hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists on board attacked them with pipes and other makeshift weapons. The Israelis killed nine.

The clash drew attention to the blockade, imposed by Israel and Egypt to punish and isolate Hamas militants who seized power of Gaza in 2007. Hamas does not recognize Israel, and refuses to renounce violence. Israel also wants to put pressure on Hamas to release a captured Israeli soldier it has held for four years.

The blockade prevents all but basic humanitarian items and consumer goods from getting in, bars exports and prevents the import of goods such as metal cans and tubs of margarine needed for industrial production.

Israel says the restrictions are needed to prevent Hamas, a group that has fired thousands of rockets into Israel, from rearming. It claims construction materials such as cement or metal could be used for military purposes.

Gaza has been mired in poverty for decades but the closure deepened the misery, erasing tens of thousands of jobs and preventing the area from repairing damage from a fierce Israeli military offensive last year launched in response to years of Hamas rocket attacks from the territory.

Palestinian official Raed Fattouh, who coordinates the flow of goods into Gaza with Israel, said soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies and candy were now permitted. He said military officials began approving the expanded list of permitted products in meetings with Palestinian liaison officials last week.

Fattouh said Israeli officials rebuffed Palestinian requests for construction goods, raw materials for factories to operate and medical devices.

"I think Israel wants to diffuse international pressure," said Fattouh. "They want to show people that they are allowing things into Gaza. But it's not important for Gaza. The important thing for us is construction materials, electrical goods, notebooks, many things."

A Hamas spokesman, Sami Abu Zuhri, said the gesture was not worth commenting on.

An Israeli government official said authorities would continue to ease the blockade but could not lift the embargo altogether as long as Hamas remains in control.

The Israeli officials all spoke on condition of anonymity pending a formal government announcement.

Some of the items banned from Gaza seem arbitrary. Basic foodstuffs such as instant coffee and coriander were barred as luxury items, while more expensive foods such as herbal tea, salmon steaks and low-fat yogurt were permitted.

Sari Bashi, an Israeli human rights advocate whose group, Gisha, has led criticism of the blockade, called Israel's easing a "cosmetic" gesture.

"We are pleased that juice and sesame paste are no longer considered threats to Israeli security, but Israel needs to let in raw materials necessary to allow Gaza residents to engage in dignified, productive work," she said.

Israel has rejected calls for an international investigation into the raid, fearing it would be biased against the Jewish state. Instead, officials are working on a formula for an investigation to be run by Israelis while including some international observers. Israel has been seeking U.S. support for this approach, but so far has not been able to reach a formula.

"We are conferring with various factors in the international community regarding the appropriate process of investigation that will expose the facts on the Gaza flotilla. We know the truth," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told an investors' conference.

Netanyahu said he, along with top government and military officials, would be willing to appear before the probe, but said it must look at key questions about the activists that clashed with the soldiers. Israel alleges they were hired mercenaries.

[Che a chara]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlElXOJV4CA

[Dean]

@Dean

Since you keep wanting to make it into a race issue Dean,

Quit defaming me. I never made it into a race issue - the militant Zionists who ethnically cleanse(d) the Palestinian (and now Arab in particular) natives, then became the dominant force in Israeli politics did. That same milieu you love to defend.


here is a question I would love to hear you answer: Do you think that there were/are severely racist anti-Jewish sentiments held by some Arab people in Israel, or in the surrounding area?
Absolutely, for obvious reasons, and there is no excuse for their cynical posturing. Any other childish idealisms you want to moan about?

[#FF0000]

Do you think that there were/are severely racist anti-Jewish sentiments held by some Arab people in Israel, or in the surrounding area?

Before WW2, the Zionist movement consisted of people buying homes in Palestine and living alongside Arabs. Things were a-okay then.

[Che a chara]

http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=pflp-condemns-murderous-crimes-israeli-pirates-and


PFLP condemns the murderous crimes of the Israeli pirates and salutes the heroes of the Freedom Flotilla

The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine condemns the latest Israeli massacre on the high seas, in international waters, the brutal assault on the international Freedom Flotilla to Gaza on May 31, 2010. The Israeli state terror pirates, said the Front, attacked the humanitarian aid and international solidarity ships with firearms and commandos; the Front said that this is the latest crime against humanity committed by the occupation state, illustrating its blatant disregard for international law.


The Front saluted all of the members of the Freedom Flotilla, particularly the martyrs and wounded, saying that these are martyrs of the Palestinian people and the Palestinian cause, and of the struggle of people everywhere for liberation, justice and freedom, and will be immortal in our struggle, and that the Flotilla's prisoners are with the prisoners of our Palestinian Arab nation, prisoners of freedom in the hands of a terror occupation state.


It called upon the Palstinian movement in Palestine and in exile and all progressive forces around the world to continue and escalate their actions at Israeli embassies and consulates around the world, including emulating the example of the Turkish people in occupying the Israeli embassy in Anakara, and demanded an immediate end to any so-called indirect or direct negotiations with the murderous regime.


The Front demanded that all Arab nations end their relations with the occupation state and cut off diplomatic ties, demanding serious international action at an official level to bring the criminal leaders of the occupation state to justice in international courts and severely punish them for their crimes. Furthermore, the Front said that the United States government and all silent and complicit governments bear responsibility for this latest crime as well as all of the ongoing crimes of this occupation state against the Palestinian Arab people.


The Front pledged to hold fast to the examples of these activists, the latest martyrs of the great struggle of people for liberation and return and for justice in the face of an occupier and invader. They shall live on, the PFLP pledged, in the determination and resistance of the Palestinian people to see justice and freedom and end the crimes of the terror state.

[RGacky3]

Brother, you're a refuge for the land of OZ.


ok, I don't know what that means.

But HOW are you a socialist at all?


Your "issues." Not mine.

Leftist issues.


Never lied. Didn't mention every little thing--but we live such complicated lives. ;)

etc....I answered his question. Gack--just because you don't like it--doesn't mean I can't do what I want to do. Now and AFTER the Revolution.

You said you were a worker and not a owner/maneger, when clearly you are.

You can do whatever you want, but that does'nt mean your being honest.

[graffic]

Quit defaming me. I never made it into a race issue - the militant Zionists who ethnically cleanse(d) the Palestinian (and now Arab in particular) natives, then became the dominant force in Israeli politics did. That same milieu you love to defend.

That just strikes me as factually untrue. It is fairly common knowledge that establishment of the State of Israel invited Arabs to join in the establishment of the state in which they would be treated as equal citizens. However, Arab states invaded Israel in order to "drive the Jews into the sea".

The official PNC line was to "drive the Jews into the sea" up until 1968 when they advocated the creation of a "democratic, secular state."

Like many armchair activists who think they know what is best for the palestinians, you make bold statements that don't stand up to facts.

Look at yourself before you accuse me of "childish idealism".

[Che a chara]

EXCLUSIVE: New Video Smuggled Out From Mavi Marmara of Israel's Deadly Assault on Gaza Aid Flotilla
In a Democracy Now! exclusive we bring you a sneak preview of previously unseen raw footage from the Mavi Marmara that will be formally released at a press conference at the United Nations later in the day. The footage shows the mood and the activities on board the Mavi Marmara in the time leading up to the attack, and the immediate reaction of the passengers during the attack. We are joined by filmmaker and activist Iara Lee, one of the few Americans on the Mavi Marmara ship. Her equipment was confiscated but she managed to smuggle out an hour's worth of footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlkj7gUl0wc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuODT3cPSGU

[Che a chara]

6 people are missing still :confused: :mad:

[Raúl Duke]

Before WW2, the Zionist movement consisted of people buying homes in Palestine and living alongside Arabs. Things were a-okay then.

This is slightly true, although there were some Jewish underground militias (Irgun, etc) that conducted terrorist attacks against non-jewish palestinians and the britishs if I recall prior to or during WWII. Some currents on Zionists probably thought about doing some ethnic cleansing while others probably did not, even around that time. Now of course, things are a little different, the state of Israel does not seem intent to live alongside Palestine/Palestinians in actions and even in internal politics within the Knesset/etc.

[tbasherizer]

On the topic of the world's reaction to the behaviour of the activists/commandos during the seizing of the earlier ships, I think the media and most people are debating the wrong points. It doesn't matter that the activists beat up the soldiers or that the soldiers did or didn't use stun grenades or that this or that happened during the seizing of the ship. It matters that Israel stopped the ships at all, and in a greater scope, that they have put Gaza under seige. People seem to care more about a few soldiers or activists than they do the entire Gazan population. The conditions in Gaza are not far off from those in the Warsaw Ghetto, but there's no mainstream media condemnation or even coverage of this new holocaust.

[Dean]

That just strikes me as factually untrue. It is fairly common knowledge that establishment of the State of Israel invited Arabs to join in the establishment of the state in which they would be treated as equal citizens. However, Arab states invaded Israel in order to "drive the Jews into the sea".
My emphasis.

What bearing do the policies of "Arab states" have on your ability to blame Palestinian refugees for their own plight?


The official PNC line was to "drive the Jews into the sea" up until 1968 when they advocated the creation of a "democratic, secular state."

Like many armchair activists who think they know what is best for the palestinians, you make bold statements that don't stand up to facts.

Look at yourself before you accuse me of "childish idealism".
If we were to take your positions seriously, what is best for the Palestinians is not to even try to deliver aid!

[Barry Lyndon]

That just strikes me as factually untrue. It is fairly common knowledge that establishment of the State of Israel invited Arabs to join in the establishment of the state in which they would be treated as equal citizens. However, Arab states invaded Israel in order to "drive the Jews into the sea".

The official PNC line was to "drive the Jews into the sea" up until 1968 when they advocated the creation of a "democratic, secular state."

Like many armchair activists who think they know what is best for the palestinians, you make bold statements that don't stand up to facts.

Look at yourself before you accuse me of "childish idealism".

Your at odds with some of the leading Israeli historians, such as Ilan Pappe, who wrote 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine'. Drawing on the Haganah's own archives, he concluded that there not only was ethnic cleansing by the Zionists against Arabs in 1948 but that it was pre-meditated and planned all the way up to David Ben-Gurion himself.
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670

Here are some useful quotes from the peace-loving Zionists you mentioned:

"We can be the vanguard of culture against barbarism"-Theodor Herzl, 1897.

"There is no choice: the Arabs must make room for the Jews of Eretz Israel. If it was possible to transfer the Baltic peoples, it is also possible to move the Palestinian Arabs."-Zeev Jabotinsky, 1923.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places"- David Ben-Gurion, 1937.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushu'a in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."-Moshe Dayan, 1969.

Here is a letter from Albert Einstein and various prominent Jewish writers, intellectuals, scientists, etc. to the New York Times, protesting a 1948 official visit to New York City by Menachim Begin(later the prime minister of Israel). Begin was then a leader of the Irgun, a Zionist terrorist organization that had massacred over 100 unarmed Arab villagers at Deir Yassin to terrorize the local population into fleeing:

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/einstein/1948/12/02.htm

Map of the 400 Palestinian villages destroyed by Zionist forces in 1948:

http://australiansforpalestine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Destroyed-villages.jpg

How does it feel to be a liar and falsifier of history?

[#FF0000]

The official PNC line was to "drive the Jews into the sea" up until 1968 when they advocated the creation of a "democratic, secular state."

You know, a lot of Israeli heads of states have expressed their genocidal intentions towards the Palestinians. Cool double standard

EDIT: oh looks like Barry Lyndon thoroughly played you already.

[Che a chara]

Full hour's footage :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwsMJmvS0AY

[RGacky3]

Honestly the only thing thats gonna change the situation is if the American public overwhelmingly demands that the US government stop supporting Isreal, unfortunately as long as Isreal has the United States unconditional support they will screw over the Palestinians to no end, and the only people that can stop it IS the American government, and for the US government to stop the American people are gonna have to twist their arm really really hard and scare them.

[graffic]

Barry Lyndon

You have completely missed the point. Obviously ethnic cleansing occurred, I never called Herzl a "peaceful" Zionist and didn't mention any of others you quoted.

Dean's bold claim that the excluuuuusive Zionist Jews escaping persecution were responsible for conflict and ethnic tension doesn't stand up to facts. In 1937 the Palestinian Liberation Organization rejected the floated idea of a two-state solution. Zionism was dominated by socialist thinkers at this time who wanted to work with the local population. After WW2 because of the realities of the holocaust and anti-semitism, jewish nationalism became more prominent and socialist Zionism sidelined. However, the Zionists trying to cope with the fuckin' holocaust accepted a two-state solution with Jerusalem as an international city. Arabs declined and the ensuing war resulted in 700,000 displaced Palestinians.

The surrounding Arab states who went to war with Israel because they wanted to colonize Palestine for themselves are to blame for the unfortunate fate of the palestinian people as much as, if not more than Israel. And foreign imperialism messed things up.

This shit that Zionist Jews created all conflict in region is based on ignorance of conflict.

[#FF0000]

Barry Lyndon

You have completely missed the point. Obviously ethnic cleansing occurred, I never called Herzl a "peaceful" Zionist and didn't mention any of others you quoted.

Dean's bold claim that the excluuuuusive Zionist Jews escaping persecution were responsible for conflict and ethnic tension doesn't stand up to facts. In 1937 the Palestinian Liberation Organization rejected the floated idea of a two-state solution. Zionism was dominated by socialist thinkers at this time who wanted to work with the local population. After WW2 because of the realities of the holocaust and anti-semitism, jewish nationalism became more prominent and socialist Zionism sidelined. However, the Zionists trying to cope with the fuckin' holocaust accepted a two-state solution with Jerusalem as an international city. Arabs declined and the ensuing war resulted in 700,000 displaced Palestinians.

The surrounding Arab states who went to war with Israel because they wanted to colonize Palestine for themselves are to blame for the unfortunate fate of the palestinian people as much as, if not more than Israel. And foreign imperialism messed things up.

This shit that Zionist Jews created all conflict in region is based on ignorance of conflict.

That is pretty funny because from what you just said it sounds a lot like the Zionists had a ton to do with the conflict in the region.

[graffic]

The truth is that, contrary to what Dean said previously, Jews are not the problem, capitalism is. Arab states, militant Zionists and foreign imperialists are to blame for the suffering of Israeli's and Palestinians. Everyone except the Iran-Hizbullah-Hamas circuit get this. 95% of the world believe Israel has a right to peacefully exist alongside a Palestinian state. Even the majority of palestinians support a two-state solution.

I wouldn't expect anything sensible from you, who in a previous thread, compared Israel to Nazi Germany. Perhaps not caring about the gross associations of the comparison, or maybe even actively enjoying them.

The difference is that I'm not as cynical about Western liberalism as you and Dean are. I hope we can agree to disagree. Unlike yourself, I know that not all capitalists are bad and there is a lot of good in capitalist countries like America. Shit goes on, however I"m not bogged down in heavy ideology like you are to see the world in black and white. And you've already demonstrated your ignorance of Zionism's complex history and socialist roots yet you've continued to apologise for Muslim colonisers whilst demonizing Zionism.

[Barry Lyndon]

Barry Lyndon

You have completely missed the point. Obviously ethnic cleansing occurred, I never called Herzl a "peaceful" Zionist and didn't mention any of others you quoted.

Dean's bold claim that the excluuuuusive Zionist Jews escaping persecution were responsible for conflict and ethnic tension doesn't stand up to facts. In 1937 the Palestinian Liberation Organization rejected the floated idea of a two-state solution. Zionism was dominated by socialist thinkers at this time who wanted to work with the local population. After WW2 because of the realities of the holocaust and anti-semitism, jewish nationalism became more prominent and socialist Zionism sidelined. However, the Zionists trying to cope with the fuckin' holocaust accepted a two-state solution with Jerusalem as an international city. Arabs declined and the ensuing war resulted in 700,000 displaced Palestinians.

The surrounding Arab states who went to war with Israel because they wanted to colonize Palestine for themselves are to blame for the unfortunate fate of the palestinian people as much as, if not more than Israel. And foreign imperialism messed things up.

This shit that Zionist Jews created all conflict in region is based on ignorance of conflict.

The Palestine Liberation Organization couldn't have rejected a two state solution in 1937, because the Palestine Liberation Organization didn't exist until 1964.

And please explain to me why 750,000 Arabs had to be expelled from their homes because of crimes committed by European fascists. And why Gaza continues to suffocate and die to this day under blockade because of what happened 60+ years ago. I still fail to see the justification there.

I posted a ton of evidence against your claims, and your basic response in 'nuh-UHH!!!!'. You obviously know nothing about the conflict, and are just parroting Israel apologist talking points while trying(unconvincingly) to put a left wing gloss on them. It's not working, idiot.

P.S. It's ironic how liberals like yourself get so up in arms about comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, saying it goes 'too far', and then turn around and routinely compare Arab regimes/Iran to Nazis(Islamofascism anyone?). Although personally, I prefer the apartheid South Africa analogy.

[graffic]

That was my error: It was the grand mufti, not the Palestinian liberation organization (although the palestinian liberation organization did also reject two-state solution) who in 1937 refused to accept any "Jewish self-rule", and he refused even to "provide guarantees for the safety of the Jewish population in the event of an Arab Palestinian state". With comments like that, followed by holocaust, its not surprising Jewish Nationalism became much more prominent than socialist Zionism.

750,000 Arabs (or whatever the correct figure is) became refugees because as soon as Israel declared independence, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon attacked it with the help of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, ,Libya and Palestinian terrorists. Records show that whilst Arab armies tried to kill Jewish civilians the Israeli army allowed Arab civilians to flee Arab-controlled areas. Which is why the refugee problem arose.



It's ironic how liberals like yourself get so up in arms about comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, saying it goes 'too far', and then turn around and routinely compare Arab regimes/Iran to Nazis(Islamofascism anyone?).

As we all know Mahmoud Ahmadinejad denies the holocaust happened, and Arab nationalists collaborated with Hitler. (Not that I myself ever have compared any Arab regimes to Nazi's) However i can see perhaps why people make the comparison when you look at Hamas and Hizbullah rhetoric

[Barry Lyndon]

750,000 Arabs (or whatever the correct figure is) became refugees because as soon as Israel declared independence, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon attacked it with the help of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, ,Libya and Palestinian terrorists. Records show that whilst Arab armies tried to kill Jewish civilians the Israeli army allowed Arab civilians to flee Arab-controlled areas. Which is why the refugee problem arose.

As we all know Mahmoud Ahmadinejad denies the holocaust happened, and Arab nationalists collaborated with Hitler. (Not that I myself ever have compared any Arab regimes to Nazi's) However i can see perhaps why people make the comparison when you look at Hamas and Hizbullah rhetoric

Which records show that? The ones you store in your ass?
The reason that Arab civilians were 'allowed' to flee Arab-controlled areas is because they were being massacred and their homes were being destroyed. That's called ethnic cleansing. You never bothered to read Einstein's letter, did you?

Benny Morris, an Israeli historian who's political views are quite reactionary, admits that the Zionists committed many more atrocities then the Arabs in 1948. He estimates that the Arabs killed 190 Jewish civilians and prisoners of war, while the Zionist forces killed 800 Arab civilians and prisoners of war in the same period.

Yes, some Arab nationalists collaborated with Hitler. And so did Zionists:
http://www.amazon.com/51-Documents-Zionist-Collaboration-Nazis/dp/1569802351

[#FF0000]

The truth is that, contrary to what Dean said previously, Jews are not the problem, capitalism is.

I seriously doubt Dean ever said that jews are the problem. They aren't. We don't have an issue with jews in Palestine. We do have an issue with Israel. Every jew in the world can live in Palestine. They have the right to live there and they have the right to live wherever they want. However, nobody has the right to an ethnic homeland, and so Israel has no right to exist.


95% of the world believe Israel has a right to peacefully exist alongside a Palestinian state. Even the majority of palestinians support a two-state solution

Cool ad populum. I don't care what 95% of people say when they're wrong.

And I'm sure most Palestinians would rather live with "seperate but equal" than be bombed into oblivion on the slightest provocation by Israel.


I wouldn't expect anything sensible from you, who in a previous thread, compared Israel to Nazi Germany. Perhaps not caring about the gross associations of the comparison, or maybe even actively enjoying them.

I never, ever did that because the two aren't comparable.


Shit goes on, however I"m not bogged down in heavy ideology like you are to see the world in black and white.

This really has nothing to do with ideology either. My logic here is pretty simple and doesn't have much to do with Marxism anyway.

Israel is the aggressor, for brutally repressing Palestinians since the 40's, and displacing tons of people and committing violence. Committing violence in any other situation than one of pure self defense makes one the aggressor. So, Israel is the aggressor and can literally do nothing in its defense, because every act it takes is an aggressive one.

Meanwhile Hamas can mortar the shit out of Israel all day and there's nothing wrong with it. They're acting in self-defense.


And you've already demonstrated your ignorance of Zionism's complex history and socialist roots yet you've continued to apologise for Muslim colonisers whilst demonizing Zionism.

Well gee I've only read tons of books on the region. I'm not ignorant of it. I just don't care because its apparent socialist roots don't change anything.

And I never apologized for muslim colonisers. I just never cared to comment on them because that's beyond the scope of this discussion. The actions of other countries in the region don't absolve Israel at all.

[Dean]

The truth is that, contrary to what Dean said previously, Jews are not the problem,
Again, quit defaming me. I have consistently denounced "racialist" interpretation of the conflict; contrarily, you have deliberately focused on issues of ethnicity which are of marginal relevance. I challenge you to find a single instance of me "blaming Jews as the problem."


capitalism is. Arab states, militant Zionists and foreign imperialists are to blame for the suffering of Israeli's and Palestinians. Everyone except the Iran-Hizbullah-Hamas circuit get this. 95% of the world believe Israel has a right to peacefully exist alongside a Palestinian state. Even the majority of palestinians support a two-state solution.
What does this mindless drivel seek to establish? Anti-Zionism is rare in Israel, as are anti-capitalism and anti-imperialism. Its no wonder since the state was built on those systems. I don't see how you can possibly claim that the Zionist circle gets that capitalism, imperialism and Zionism are to blame.


I wouldn't expect anything sensible from you, who in a previous thread, compared Israel to Nazi Germany. Perhaps not caring about the gross associations of the comparison, or maybe even actively enjoying them.
Good way to use up a paragraph without providing any material argument.


The difference is that I'm not as cynical about Western liberalism as you and Dean are. I hope we can agree to disagree. Unlike yourself, I know that not all capitalists are bad and there is a lot of good in capitalist countries like America.
This just shows how delusional you are. Capitalists aren't "bad," they're part of an exploitative system. Any human being would be inclined to act the same way as capitalists, given their conditions, so your moralist fantasy doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

Neither does your slavish devotion to western liberalism, which your emergent Israel-criticism directly correlates with. Nice trend-following, kid.


Shit goes on, however I"m not bogged down in heavy ideology like you are to see the world in black and white. And you've already demonstrated your ignorance of Zionism's complex history and socialist roots yet you've continued to apologise for Muslim colonisers whilst demonizing Zionism.
:laugh: "Muslim colonizers." The bottom line is that Hizb Allah and Hamas represent slave rebellions (failing, of course, since they have little capital to back them) and Zionism represents capitalist/western imperialism. Anybody who refuses to see that, is also refusing to accept the most basic on-the-ground facts of the conflict.

Your idealism gets more absurd by the minute.

[graffic]

Meanwhile Hamas can mortar the shit out of Israel all day and there's nothing wrong with it. They're acting in self-defense.

Its when you come out with these ill thought out bullshit, lazy comments similar to when you compared Israel to Nazi's that the argument falls down.

Its one of the worst things about people taking Marxism and exaggerating it for their own subjective interpretation. Its the depressing logic that ultimately you have no responsibility for anything. I can shoot my boss and its not my fault because he was stealing my labour. Terrorists are justified in killing people because they are oppressed. Its ok to shoot the government because they are making laws that are unfair.

In Palestine of course palestinians are being utterly shat upon but thats no excuse. Its interesting that occasionally someone will say where is the "palestinian Gandhi" or Luther King? Where is a peaceful movement that will show up IDF Zionist brutality and awaken the world to its senses? The reason is that, contrary to what anti-semites and radical islamists say, the IDF doesn't treat the palestinians like shit anymore than British and American troops treat Iraqi's like shit. In Israel the entire population is drafted into the army so it's hardly surprising there are a few nutters serving. However, if you look at the palestinian "refugee camps" in Egypt and Lebanon they are treated worse than they ever would be under the harshest IDF platoon.

[Barry Lyndon]

Meanwhile Hamas can mortar the shit out of Israel all day and there's nothing wrong with it. They're acting in self-defense.

Its when you come out with these ill thought out bullshit, lazy comments similar to when you compared Israel to Nazi's that the argument falls down.

Its one of the worst things about people taking Marxism and exaggerating it for their own subjective interpretation. Its the depressing logic that ultimately you have no responsibility for anything. I can shoot my boss and its not my fault because he was stealing my labour. Terrorists are justified in killing people because they are oppressed. Its ok to shoot the government because they are making laws that are unfair.

In Palestine of course palestinians are being utterly shat upon but thats no excuse. Its interesting that occasionally someone will say where is the "palestinian Gandhi" or Luther King? Where is a peaceful movement that will show up IDF Zionist brutality and awaken the world to its senses? The reason is that, contrary to what anti-semites and radical islamists say, the IDF doesn't treat the palestinians like shit anymore than British and American troops treat Iraqi's like shit. In Israel the entire population is drafted into the army so it's hardly surprising there are a few nutters serving. However, if you look at the palestinian "refugee camps" in Egypt and Lebanon they are treated worse than they ever would be under the harshest IDF platoon.

Actually the Palestinians did launch a massive civil disobedience campaign in 1987-91 called the intifada, which the US media largely ignored, because its only interested in covering Arabs when they are violent. There have also been large peaceful labor strikes and civil disobedience campaigns against the US occupation in Iraq, which the US media has ignored as well. I don't blame you for your ignorance, because you clearly take everything the bourgeois media says at face value.

It's not that there are 'a few nutters' serving in the IDF, its that the main role of the IDF is maintaining and enforcing a brutal and violent colonial occupation. They be the nicest individual soldier in the world, but there is no nice way to demolish peoples homes, uproot their olive trees, patrol checkpoints, drop white posphorus on schools, or murder humanitarian workers. Your so hypocritical in that you demand that the Palestinians need to take responsibility for their actions, but you then turn around and absolve the Israeli state of its far greater crimes by declaring their actions the work of 'a few nutters'.

I don't see the point of you saying Israel's conduct 'isn't any better' then the US conduct in Iraq(or Afghanistan, etc). Does that make it ok? Every sentence you write shows that for all your alleged criticism you side with the occupiers, not their victims.

[graffic]

No you are mistaken, I "side", if you like, with someone who wants to live in a palestinian state peacefully beside a Jewish state. Since practically the entire ideology of pan-Arabism is based around the destruction of Jewish Israel I don't often find myself "siding" or, in your case, apologizing, for the likes of Hamas, Hizbullah or Iran.

[#FF0000]

Meanwhile Hamas can mortar the shit out of Israel all day and there's nothing wrong with it. They're acting in self-defense.

Its when you come out with these ill thought out bullshit, lazy comments similar to when you compared Israel to Nazi's that the argument falls down.

I never compared Israel and Nazi Germany. Also the IDF operates off the inverse of my statement so maybe you should bring that up with them sometime, too.


Its one of the worst things about people taking Marxism and exaggerating it for their own subjective interpretation. Its the depressing logic that ultimately you have no responsibility for anything. I can shoot my boss and its not my fault because he was stealing my labour. Terrorists are justified in killing people because they are oppressed. Its ok to shoot the government because they are making laws that are unfair.

This has nothing to do with Marxism at all, though. It's a really simple moral/ethical principle that violence in justified in the case of self-defense. The simple fact is that Israel is the aggressor.

But yeah you're right it's always a little more complicated than that. When using violence to stop violence, the important thing is that it's effective, which mortars and rocket attacks rarely are. They aren't gonna stop the IDF. But at the same time, what do you expect them to do? The IDF comes down hard on anyone who speaks up.


In Palestine of course palestinians are being utterly shat upon but thats no excuse. Its interesting that occasionally someone will say where is the "palestinian Gandhi" or Luther King? Where is a peaceful movement that will show up IDF Zionist brutality and awaken the world to its senses?

In graves or Israeli prisons. The IDF kills peaceful protesters all the fucking time.


The reason is that, contrary to what anti-semites and radical islamists say, the IDF doesn't treat the palestinians like shit anymore than British and American troops treat Iraqi's like shit.

This is so wrong that I'm sort of stunned. You realize you're talking about the IDF, which bulldozes settlements, intentionally displaces tons of people, kills peaceful protesters, responds to any provocation with collective punishment (Illegal), uses White Phosphorous on civilians, and is currently enforcing a blockade of questionable legality. And most of this is just referencing things in the past decade.


In Israel the entire population is drafted into the army so it's hardly surprising there are a few nutters serving. However, if you look at the palestinian "refugee camps" in Egypt and Lebanon they are treated worse than they ever would be under the harshest IDF platoon.

Egypt and Lebanon are sort of out of the scope of this discussion and aren't receiving nearly as much of America's guns and money as Israel. Also, what Egypt and Lebanon do don't absolve Israel at all.

So, Graffic, who has committed more crimes here, Israel or Palestine? And none of that "uhh they're both wrong" bullshit. You've deflected criticism of Israel by pointing to Egypt and other countries, so just a straight answer, please.


No you are mistaken, I "side", if you like, with someone who wants to live in a palestinian state peacefully beside a Jewish state. Since practically the entire ideology of pan-Arabism is based around the destruction of Jewish Israel I don't often find myself "siding" or, in your case, apologizing, for the likes of Hamas, Hizbullah or Iran.

I generally think things like "seperate but equal" and "apartheid" are bad things so I don't like the idea of a two-state solution. Especially when Israel controls the lion's share of arable land in Palestine.

[Che a chara]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10338199.stm


Israel cabinet votes to ease Gaza Strip blockade

Israel has announced it will ease the land blockade of the Gaza Strip and allow more civilian goods to enter the Palestinian territory.

The move comes amid growing international pressure to end the embargo.

An Israeli raid on an aid flotilla attempting to break the blockade last month was widely condemned.

Nine Turkish activists died in the commando raid on the flotilla in international waters.

The decision to ease the blockade, agreed by Israel's security cabinet after a two-day meeting, will see the expansion of the number of products Israel will allow into Gaza, including construction materials.

The international Middle East Envoy, Tony Blair, had indicated that Israeli leaders would agree to a partial lifting of the blockade.

Israel and Egypt tightened their blockade on Gaza after the Islamist Hamas movement took control of the Palestinian territory in 2007.

Israel says the aim of the blockade is to prevent war material entering Gaza while allowing the entry of humanitarian aid.

[graffic]

I never compared Israel and Nazi Germany.

You said in another thread that Israels "persecution" of Muslims is like Nazi persecution of Jews and Jim Crows attitude towards blacks. Its pretty sad

who has committed more crimes here, Israel or Palestine? And none of that "uhh they're both wrong" bullshit.

Well they are both wrong in many cases. You can continue to make blanket statements that mean fuck all like you have in this thread and others. However you've got it completely wrong, as usual. I have no interest in apologising for either sides violence in present day context like you do. You've demonstrated you're ignorance of Zionism's socialist roots whilst apologising for Arab racism and colonialism.

Grand Mufti says when Zionism was largely peaceful that he was unable to "provide guarantees for the safety of the Jewish population in the event of an Arab Palestinian state" and of course there is ethnic violence towards Jews before any military occupation yet you think that Zionists created all conflict between Arab and Jew despite ZIonists guaranteeing Arabs equal status in Israel declaration.

[Dean]

You've demonstrated you're ignorance of Zionism's socialist roots whilst apologising for Arab racism and colonialism.
Boo hoo. That's like decrying critics of the USSR because they "ignore the USSR's socialist roots." Who gives a fuck who calls themselves socialist or draws on that tradition, when the material character of the regime is markedly capitalist-imperialist, and the regime has always backed the western capitalist bloc at that? It's pitiful reductionism which has no place in an honest discussion of the character of the Israeli-Palestinian (though I know you're not interested in honest debate anyways).


yet you think that Zionists created all conflict between Arab and Jew despite ZIonists guaranteeing Arabs equal status in Israel declaration.
The problem is that these verbal/ written guarantees clash with the history of the conflict, specifically capitalist aggression that was spearheaded by the Ottoman, British and Zionist powers - this capitalist paradigm was eventually taken over by the Zionists, of course.

The bottom line is that the defense of Zionism, in particular as it exists in conflict with other people and movements in the region, is consistently a defense of imperialism and capitalism, in addition to military aggression.

"Arab aggression" obviously played its part in the conflict, much like Native American racism and war on the European colonizers. The problem is that the material roots and responsibility for the perpetuation of the conflict lay with the empowered colonizing regime. That you "fail" to see this is merely a desperate attempt to defend Israel, which you've always been prejudiced for, albeit with widely varying (and therefore obviously dishonest) justifications.

[#FF0000]

You said in another thread that Israels "persecution" of Muslims is like Nazi persecution of Jews and Jim Crows attitude towards blacks. Its pretty sad

Can you quote it, because whatever I said you missed the point of. The Israeli persecution (no quotes) of the Palestinians is unique.

Well they are both wrong in many cases. You can continue to make blanket statements that mean fuck all like you have in this thread and others. However you've got it completely wrong, as usual. I have no interest in apologising for either sides violence in present day context like you do. You've demonstrated you're ignorance of Zionism's socialist roots whilst apologising for Arab racism and colonialism.

1) I'm well aware of Zionism's socialist roots. I don't care though because those roots have fuck-all to do with Israel today.
2) You're apologizing for Israeli racism and colonialism.


Grand Mufti says when Zionism was largely peaceful that he was unable to "provide guarantees for the safety of the Jewish population in the event of an Arab Palestinian state" and of course there is ethnic violence towards Jews before any military occupation yet you think that Zionists created all conflict between Arab and Jew despite ZIonists guaranteeing Arabs equal status in Israel declaration.

Tbh the British are to blame for a lot of the violence done towards the Palestinians in the beginning (Machine-gunning down tons of peaceful protesters, which was sort of Britain's "thing"). The fact is that the Palestinians had literally no say over what was happening to them and they were being unjustly displaced, and even though the British mandate said clearly that the Palestinians and Israeli's both had to come to an agreement over what was supposed to go down with Israel. That never happened.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

So, yeah, anyway, are you trying to tell me that the Palestinians were anti-semitic and hated Jews and so would attack Israelis for no reason, or...?

As for the Arab states, I'm well aware of their role in all this. That's just not what this discussion is about, and to be honest, everything they've done is secondary to what Israel's done. Egyptian and Lebanese refugee camps might be abhorrent, but who put the Palestinians there in the first place?

I'm more interested in the flagrant crimes against humanity that Israel perpetrates regularly with blatant disgregard for the Palestinians.