Right of nations to self-determination

[leftist manson]

Must the right to self-determination include the right to form a separate country, or can it be limited to some lesser form of autonomy within a larger state?
For example, should Quebec or Flanders have the right to 'secession' ?? Based on what??
"natural rights'???
Discuss both with regards to the First-world and the Third world??

[Comrade Gwydion]

Flanders and Quebec have no rights to 'self-detirmination' as a nation. However, neither have Belgium or Canada, so imho everyone may seccede as they like.

[leftist manson]

Flanders and Quebec have no rights to 'self-detirmination' as a nation. However, neither have Belgium or Canada, so imho everyone may seccede as they like.

Actually the Quebecois have been formally accepted as a 'nation' by the supreme court of canada and Have the Right to self-determination (whatever mumbo-jumbo that means under bourgeois law).....

What i'm asking is , should Quebec have the right to secede from federal Canada ???

Please try to elucidate as i want to know cultural, politcal-economic,inter-imperialist impacts of this change.....

Yes or no answer doesn't suffice :(

Thanks a lot <3

[FriendlyLocalViking]

As I said before my post was deleted (Thank you mods >_>), I strongly support the right of any group to create their own nation, with legal authority.

As an Ontarian, I see a lot of complainging about "frogs wanting sovreignty". It's disgusting to see the noble fight for Quebec sovreignty degraded so. I really hope Quebec gets its independence. In fact, if they do, I'll help them. You'll see me helping out in whatever capacity I feel is necessary.

[leftace53]

Yes, Quebec should have the right to secede (slight bias from living in the Maritimes for years - we like Quebec). Now, while we don't want to "tie down" Quebec to a country simply because the Brits won an imperialistic war many years ago, it also shouldn't have to come down to this. While Canada is regarded as a bilingual country, the French are not treated too well here in Ontario (and I suspect the same goes for out west), if that is properly addressed, surely the frenchies might want to stay? Not to mention Quebec separating would cripple Canadian and Quebecian economies vastly, and it would be like how Canada separates Alaska with the rest of the US when it comes to geographically cutting off the Maritimes.

Also what Comrade Gwyndon said.

[FriendlyLocalViking]

Yes, Quebec should have the right to secede (slight bias from living in the Maritimes for years - we like Quebec). Now, while we don't want to "tie down" Quebec to a country simply because the Brits won an imperialistic war many years ago, it also shouldn't have to come down to this. While Canada is regarded as a bilingual country, the French are not treated too well here in Ontario (and I suspect the same goes for out west), if that is properly addressed, surely the frenchies might want to stay? Not to mention Quebec separating would cripple Canadian and Quebecian economies vastly, and it would be like how Canada separates Alaska with the rest of the US when it comes to geographically cutting off the Maritimes.

Also what Comrade Gwyndon said.

Well yeah, you'd have to be an idiot to argue for independence at any cost right now. Circumstances, circumstances, circumstances.

Still, I say that if the people of Quebec ever decide that yes, let's give it a try, I am behind them 100%

[Ismail]

"... at the Third All-Russian Congress of Soviets, he [Stalin] enunciated a change, stating that 'the right of self-determination [was the right] not of the bourgeoisie but of the toiling masses of a given nation. The principle of self-determination ought to be used as a means in the struggle for socialism, and it ought to be subordinated to the principles of socialism.' .... In May 1918, when opening a preparatory conference on the creation of a Tatar-Bashkir Autonomous Soviet Republic, he expressed this centralist policy on forthright terms. A sovereign, 'purely nationalist' form of autonomy would be disruptive and, indeed, anti-Soviet... The central authority should, therefore, exercise all functions of importance, leaving to the autonomous regions the administrative, political, and cultural functions which were regional in character."
(Grey, Ian. Stalin: Man of History. 1st ed. New York: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1979. p. 104.)

"We do not only recognize, but we also give full support to the principle of self-determination, wherever it is directed against feudal, capitalist and imperialist states. But wherever the fiction of self-determination, in the hands of the bourgeoisie, becomes a weapon directed against the proletarian revolution, we have no occasion to treat this fiction differently from the other 'principles' of democracy perverted by capitalism."
(L. Trotsky. Between Red and White, Chap. IX. 1922.)

It's good to keep these things in mind. If Québec wants independence and the workers decide it on the basis of resisting Anglo-Canadian chauvinism and significant economic inequality, then they should indeed have it. It's important for Communists to stress unity, however, and that only under socialism can national contradictions be solved, otherwise you wind up praising bourgeois "self-determination" rather than internationalism. Communists should not be tailing bourgeois nationalist parties in Québec.

[GreenCommunism]

Actually the Quebecois have been formally accepted as a 'nation' by the supreme court of canada and Have the Right to self-determination
only very recently, this sounds similar to the israeli claim that palestine is not a nation so basicly they are not people.

also independance doesn't mean we will have different money or border. there could be free trade between canada and quebec.

[4 Leaf Clover]

nations have right to self-determinate, but then , we support those who self-determinate for socialism only. Communist always recognize right to every entity even smallest to have its autonomy , but we must argue for socialism

[AK]

Oh sure, they have the right to. What nationalism will do to their society after that... only time will tell.

[yllwlvr]

can the right to self-determination mean anything other than the right to form an independent sovereign state? how else could this 'right' be put into practice?

i suppose allowing indigenous peoples a degree of self-rule under a larger state is an example of this right.

as far as i can tell, according to international law Flanders and Quebec both have a -right- to secede, though i suspect that little good would come out of the actual secession of either state. as AK pointed out, the effects of nationalism on their society (particularly in Flanders, where i have lived several times and seen how racist and fascist the secessionists can really be) would probably have an overly negative impact on the workers of the world.

what i mean to say is if one or two imperial states allow, or at any rate do not interfere with, the secession of some region or another in their possession, isn't it possibly that many other imperialist nations might undergo the same process? a single nation broken into several smaller, hyper-nationalist states is probably not the progressive step the world needs right now.

but i guess that's strictly hypothetical, eh?



all of this aside, what exactly are political boundaries, anyway? in many cases the border between two political entities is invisible and intangible - existing only as lines of ink on a map and a concept in one's mind. granted, there is a lot of importance in the present era for the maintenance of these borders, as the red tape on one part of the map is different in another part of the map and the resources on this side of a river are different than on that side, or what have you.

in this light, i view the integrity of national and international borders as a primarily imperialist concern: we must contain this resource and this labour force and we must keep out these people or, whatever. to a significantly lesser degree, international borders keep a culture or cultures unified. i think that the importance of culture is WAAAAAAAAY over-played by secessionist movements because telling someone 'we are alike, you and me and our neighbour, so we should rule ourselves' probably pacifies people more than saying 'my economic situation, as well as that of a few others, will dramatically improve if you help us secede'.