Debunking current views on communism?

[superborys]

One of the biggest problems I see with there being a large-scale revolution in the Communists' favor is that America, for the entirety of the Cold War, propagated this propaganda that Communism was evil, that Marx was a psycho and a fascist, that Engels was Satan, etc, etc. It is widely instilled in people that Communism is about everyone being equal under a bureaucracy in which no one can ever ascend the ranks. No one is aware that in a real Communist system there are no ranks to speak of, and everyone is entirely equal, with no one 'being more equal than anyone else'.

What sparked me to make this thread was that on eRepublik, I'm a citizen of eGermany, and the party that I was with was left, libertarian, which is about as close as I was going to get to real Communism. They changed to center-right, libertarian, so I abandoned them. I looked for another party, and all of them are either right, center-right, or center. I looked at the Communist party and it's far-left, authoritarian. Well, one-half of my requirements were filled: high amounts of liberty civilly, but an authoritarian I am not.

This made me think: This is common in the world, to view Communism as an authoritarian system in which we're all ruled by the Premier Secretary-General, and no one has any other say, which is not ok. If it's like this online in a game, how bad must it be in real life. You say 'Communism' and everyone thinks of what their parents have told them and how it's evil.

I do not believe in authoritarianism, and I doubt that any real Communist does either, so how are we going to go about making people see that the previously existing 'Communist' states were nothing close to Communism, and that we're not about authoritarianism, but rather about near-absolute democracy.

Thanks.

[x371322]

Even though "The Viking's" way of referring to himself in the third person is starting to become quite annoying, I agree wholeheartedly. We need to accept that the revolution isn't going to happen next week. And it isn't going to happen at all if we don't garner ourselves some support. I really like what I've seen on the website of The Red Star Society. I'm not really sure how active those guys are (if at all, I really don't know), but it seems to me that they're definitely on the right track, at least in theory. I'd like to see every major left wing party get involved with The Red Star Society, or with similar projects (disaster relief, charity, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, building homes, food drives, etc). Those things are far more important for us right now than preaching a revolution that, for the time being, is nowhere in sight. We have to change the public opinion of communism, and essentially reverse decades of misinformation... not an easy thing to do.

[Nolan]

Knock down the walls surrounding their minds, and you'll see that anti-communism is built on pillars of sand. One way to do this, as viking touched on, is to become active in working communities.

One way the police might try to get information out of you is to try to build a relationship with you by giving you food. This is a natural way of building trust. If we would use a similar tactic more often, such as volunteering to clean up, soup kitchens, organizing community events, etc. the common perception built by the media of communists as satan's little minions would go away, as people will believe what they see themselves over what some television pundit or history book tells them. As capitalism decays further, workers will turn to whoever -or what - they trust most.

[x371322]

While I resent your remark... I agree with your agreement to my point.

:laugh: I meant that in the best way possible.

[superborys]

The only problem with that idea for me is I live near Memphis, which is so extremely violent that nothing can be done. An average of 10 people a week die in Memphis from violent incidents. I'm actually afraid to go there and try to help, for fear I might die. I'm only 16, I don't want to die fighting for something that's not there yet.

And even worse, I don't live in Memphis, but near it, in a well-off suburb. My family altogether makes about $110,000-$120,000 a year, and we're in the middle of this society around here. We aren't poor, and neither is anyone around us. We don't have places to go do charity work for the poor, we don't have places to set up events. It's just so hard to try to convince people that fairness among workers is only logical when everyone around you works in an office and has a 6-figure income.

How am I supposed to help Communism if no one here will even give me enough of their time to listen? How am I supposed to help if it likely means my life will be lost if I try? How am I supposed to help if the people won't let me?

I think these things are what hinder us most: The country as a whole, at least in centers where there are thinkers and Communists, are rising in standard of living. Like it has been said time and time again, the divide between poor and rich is so great that the poor cannot afford to learn, or they starve, and the rich aren't in a position to care!

I feel helpless. None of my friends care, they all think that "meh, politics are politics, they won't affect me.", but they don't seem to realize that in a short two years, they will affect them! RevLeft, how do I convince my friends that Communism is fair, and that our current system is not? If I do convince them, how do I convince them to help me! I feel like I might be the only Communist for miles!

[x371322]

The only problem with that idea for me is I live near Memphis, which is so extremely violent that nothing can be done. An average of 10 people a week die in Memphis from violent incidents. I'm actually afraid to go there and try to help, for fear I might die. I'm only 16, I don't want to die fighting for something that's not there yet.

And even worse, I don't live in Memphis, but near it, in a well-off suburb. My family altogether makes about $110,000-$120,000 a year, and we're in the middle of this society around here. We aren't poor, and neither is anyone around us. We don't have places to go do charity work for the poor, we don't have places to set up events. It's just so hard to try to convince people that fairness among workers is only logical when everyone around you works in an office and has a 6-figure income.

How am I supposed to help Communism if no one here will even give me enough of their time to listen? How am I supposed to help if it likely means my life will be lost if I try? How am I supposed to help if the people won't let me?

I think these things are what hinder us most: The country as a whole, at least in centers where there are thinkers and Communists, are rising in standard of living. Like it has been said time and time again, the divide between poor and rich is so great that the poor cannot afford to learn, or they starve, and the rich aren't in a position to care!

I feel helpless. None of my friends care, they all think that "meh, politics are politics, they won't affect me.", but they don't seem to realize that in a short two years, they will affect them! RevLeft, how do I convince my friends that Communism is fair, and that our current system is not? If I do convince them, how do I convince them to help me! I feel like I might be the only Communist for miles!

I think there's a branch of the SP-USA in Memphis. Even if you don't agree with their line, it wouldn't hurt to get in touch and contribute some of your thoughts and ideas. Maybe they could even help to get something started.

[AK]

I think there's a branch of the SP-USA in Memphis. Even if you don't agree with their line, it wouldn't hurt to get in touch and contribute some of your thoughts and ideas. Maybe they could even help to get something started.
If the OP sticks to their views of Council Communism, they shouldn't join a political party - especially one that is reformist.

@superborys: There's not much you can do at the moment but debunk bullshit about your ideology and attempt to raise class consciousness in people your age - or at least educate people about the injustices and inequalities that arise whilst living in a capitalist society. As soon as you get the chance to organise with other Council Communists (which might presumably include those who you have "converted" - which is easier said than done), then get started on forming some sort of group, because - as far as I'm aware of - there aren't any groups of the Council Communist tendency still around.

[x371322]

If the OP sticks to their views of Council Communism, they shouldn't join a political party - especially one that is reformist.

Where did I tell him to go join a party? I said he could contact them and work with them to do some good for the community. This thread is about improving the public perception of socialism... sometimes we've got to work with what we've got. If you ask me, working to further the cause while helping out within the community is a LOT more important than petty sectarian bullshit.

[RedRise]

I think superborys and Viking are right. We're not going to get anyway with a revolution if we don't have the support of the people. After all, that's who we're fighting for!
Suggestions about helping out are great. Unfortunately I'm probably too young to get involved in a large way but if there are any Perthites reading this we could discuss some ideas.

[superborys]

@superborys: There's not much you can do at the moment but debunk bullshit about your ideology and attempt to raise class consciousness in people your age - or at least educate people about the injustices and inequalities that arise whilst living in a capitalist society. As soon as you get the chance to organise with other Council Communists (which might presumably include those who you have "converted" - which is easier said than done), then get started on forming some sort of group, because - as far as I'm aware of - there aren't any groups of the Council Communist tendency still around.

This is what I'm going to do. I avoid using the term 'enlighten' or 'inform' because then it appears to non-communists that we're arrogant about it, at least to me it does, so I use convert, as I feel its generic-ness makes it appropriate for use here.

I have already begun gathering my friends and informing them about communism and what it is in reality as opposed to what our awful government has perpetrated it to be. My next aim is to bring over all of my friends, and then perhaps when we have numbers larger than 10 or 15, we'll begin charity work or large-scale information and class-awareness raisings.

Really guys, thank you all for the help. Usually I can deal with these things myself, but I just have never had to deal with the thought of fighting with every person in my town; there just aren't communists where I live, at least not left communists.


An off question: There are left communists and right communists. I know that most, if not all, of us here on revleft are left communists, but are the non-leftists the people that run the current and former 'communist states'?
And are we all for democracy here, or are we that divided? I know that our implementations are different, some people want a presidency with a republic-style system, and people such as myself want nearly an anarchist system in place.

[FriendlyLocalViking]

Well, all Communists are on the Left, but within that left, there's another right/left divide.

People on the LeftCommieLeft are like Trots and Guevarists and them.

People on the RightCommieLeft are like Stalinists and Maoists.

My observations at least. And I'm pretty sure both are welcome here cuz they're both on the Left.

[AK]

Well, all Communists are on the Left, but within that left, there's another right/left divide.

People on the LeftCommieLeft are like Trots and Guevarists and them.

People on the RightCommieLeft are like Stalinists and Maoists.

My observations at least. And I'm pretty sure both are welcome here cuz they're both on the Left.
Wouldn't council communists, left communists, Luxemburgists, De Leonists, situationists and autonomists belong to the left?

[Chimurenga.]

Well, all Communists are on the Left, but within that left, there's another right/left divide.

People on the LeftCommieLeft are like Trots and Guevarists and them.

People on the RightCommieLeft are like Stalinists and Maoists.

My observations at least. And I'm pretty sure both are welcome here cuz they're both on the Left.

Guevara was a "Stalinist".

[AK]

Guevara was a "Stalinist".
I was going to mention that. I also wonder why Trotskyism is in the left faction when many consider it to be authoritarian.

[Zanthorus]

People on the LeftCommieLeft are like Trots and Guevarists and them.

People on the RightCommieLeft are like Stalinists and Maoists.

The original communist "left" were the majority factions of the Italian and German-Dutch sections of the communist international which opposed the united front, parliamentarianism, entryism etc which caused them to be kicked out. Lenin wrote a polemical piece against them called "Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder" and since all modern Trot groups that I know of uphold things like the united front they're certainly not part of that particular "left". The "left" that Trotsky was a part of was the left opposition which was critical of the USSR leadership post-1924 and argued that the USSR had become a "degenerated workers state" post-1933. However Trotskyism is very much closer to stalinism than other tendencies to the left of stalinism. There is a Trotskyist group which takes it's cue from Tony Cliff called the International Socialist Tendency which takes it's starting point of an analysis of why Trotsky was wrong and how the USSR had become state-capitalist post-1928. However as far as I'm aware they still lack any analysis of how the comintern's collaborationist tactics led to it's degeneration.

[ZeroNowhere]

Wouldn't council communists, left communists, Luxemburgists, De Leonists, situationists and autonomists belong to the left?
No, the SLP supported North Vietnam on NL grounds. Interestingly enough, this change in position actually occurred after the war, as during it they had not favoured either side. Nevertheless, it still took place.

De Leonites don't have any necessary position on the question, as the above would indicate, although De Leon himself probably leaned towards the left on the subject. This, however, is not part of what defines De Leonism.

[DaComm]

One of the biggest problems I see with there being a large-scale revolution in the Communists' favor is that America, for the entirety of the Cold War, propagated this propaganda that Communism was evil, that Marx was a psycho and a fascist, that Engels was Satan, etc, etc. It is widely instilled in people that Communism is about everyone being equal under a bureaucracy in which no one can ever ascend the ranks. No one is aware that in a real Communist system there are no ranks to speak of, and everyone is entirely equal, with no one 'being more equal than anyone else'.

What sparked me to make this thread was that on eRepublik, I'm a citizen of eGermany, and the party that I was with was left, libertarian, which is about as close as I was going to get to real Communism. They changed to center-right, libertarian, so I abandoned them. I looked for another party, and all of them are either right, center-right, or center. I looked at the Communist party and it's far-left, authoritarian. Well, one-half of my requirements were filled: high amounts of liberty civilly, but an authoritarian I am not.

This made me think: This is common in the world, to view Communism as an authoritarian system in which we're all ruled by the Premier Secretary-General, and no one has any other say, which is not ok. If it's like this online in a game, how bad must it be in real life. You say 'Communism' and everyone thinks of what their parents have told them and how it's evil.

I do not believe in authoritarianism, and I doubt that any real Communist does either, so how are we going to go about making people see that the previously existing 'Communist' states were nothing close to Communism, and that we're not about authoritarianism, but rather about near-absolute democracy.

Thanks.


Very much so correct you are. The Bourgeoisie has been filling the minds of the public with this propaganda, denoting Communism and claiming it be synonomous with Nazism. What Glenn Beck didn't expect however, was that I am promoting pro-intellectualism and am starting this with my Youtube videos. To check them out, see Mauser9513's youtube uploads.

[28350]

Left-Right kinda breaks down over here.

[Os Cangaceiros]

One of the biggest problems I see with there being a large-scale revolution in the Communists' favor is that America, for the entirety of the Cold War, propagated this propaganda that Communism was evil, that Marx was a psycho and a fascist, that Engels was Satan, etc, etc. It is widely instilled in people that Communism is about everyone being equal under a bureaucracy in which no one can ever ascend the ranks. No one is aware that in a real Communist system there are no ranks to speak of, and everyone is entirely equal, with no one 'being more equal than anyone else'.

What sparked me to make this thread was that on eRepublik, I'm a citizen of eGermany, and the party that I was with was left, libertarian, which is about as close as I was going to get to real Communism. They changed to center-right, libertarian, so I abandoned them. I looked for another party, and all of them are either right, center-right, or center. I looked at the Communist party and it's far-left, authoritarian. Well, one-half of my requirements were filled: high amounts of liberty civilly, but an authoritarian I am not.

This made me think: This is common in the world, to view Communism as an authoritarian system in which we're all ruled by the Premier Secretary-General, and no one has any other say, which is not ok. If it's like this online in a game, how bad must it be in real life. You say 'Communism' and everyone thinks of what their parents have told them and how it's evil.

I do not believe in authoritarianism, and I doubt that any real Communist does either, so how are we going to go about making people see that the previously existing 'Communist' states were nothing close to Communism, and that we're not about authoritarianism, but rather about near-absolute democracy.

Thanks.

In my honest opinion, the so-called "Old Left" has failed, at least they have thus far in the historical narrative. None of the classical worker's revolutions of old (in Russia, Germany and Spain) survived. Various excuses have been made for this, the most common being that "the world wasn't ready for communism"; Russia especially, "backwards hellhole" that it was. And maybe there's some truth in this, but it still doesn't change the fact that capitalism won and the Left lost.

In addition I believe that it's silly to view the situation we face in the 21st century vis-a-vis the working class in exactly the same way as we would if we were living in an occupied factory in Barcelona circa 1936. All economic systems change their natures to adapt to changing conditions; this can be seen in slave systems of the 17th and 18th centuries, with the transition from the "cosmopolitan slaves" from the West Indies to the "Africanization" slavery, or feudalism as it existed directly prior to 1066, through the reign of Norman kings and into the period directly prior to the decimation of the commons. Capitalism by it's very nature is far more flexible than those systems, yet I think that a lot of the modern Left is still embroiled in the old "dark Satanic mills" rhetoric, as if all the proletarians will suddenly be ready to overthrow the bourgeoisie with just the right push from the right vanguard party (speaking of which, I can't think of one self-proclaimed "revolutionary party" that has made any impact at all in working class life post-1945, at least not in the United States). It is my humble opinion that a change of tactics is sorely needed, and that includes how we present our ideas to other people.

The situation really isn't all that dire. Here in the United States, long considered by the "revolutionary left" as a haven of petit-bourgeois selfishness and individualism, people are pretty pissed about a number of issues, most of them directly related to the crisis of capital that we're experiencing. Most people here don't really like their boss, and would like more control over their workplaces. Most people here don't like the cops. Or the government, or politicians. Or increasingly capitalism, for that matter. (http://www.gallup.com/poll/125645/socialism-viewed-positively-americans.aspx) I think that there's a lot of opportunity to be had for our side; I just don't think that we're going to see any more Winter Palaces being stormed, if you catch my drift.

[Weezer]

Guevara was a "Stalinist".

Che was a Communist. Isn't that good enough?

[Chimurenga.]

Che was a Communist. Isn't that good enough?

Did I ever say it wasn't?

[Zanthorus]

In my honest opinion, the so-called "Old Left" has failed, at least they have thus far in the historical narrative. None of the classical worker's revolutions of old (in Russia, Germany and Spain) survived. Various excuses have been made for this, the most common being that "the world wasn't ready for communism"; Russia especially, "backwards hellhole" that it was. And maybe there's some truth in this, but it still doesn't change the fact that capitalism won and the Left lost.

This is false. The only current I'm aware of that argues that Russia was too backwards for communism is the Councillists like Ruhl who tried to argue some ridiculous gibberish about how the Russian Revolution was a bourgeois revolution in disguise.

Most "anti-stalinist" Marxists see the failure of the Russian Revolution as the fault of various other factors. I would personally pinpoint the failure to collectivise the peasantry until too late in the game, the "national self-determination" slogan stabbing the Bolsheviks in the back and the failure of the German revolution.

I agree with what you said about rhetoric and change of tactics though.

[Os Cangaceiros]

This is false. The only current I'm aware of that argues that Russia was too backwards for communism is the Councillists like Ruhl who tried to argue some ridiculous gibberish about how the Russian Revolution was a bourgeois revolution in disguise.


OK, but I was referring more to what I've seen people argue on this website.

Actually I think that a number of currents argue that Russia was too backwards for communism without help.

[superborys]

@ DaComm:

I'll be sure to watch your videos, I'm sure they'll be interesting. Until people shed the veil of spoon-fed information, they'll never be able to realize the flaws in any system they're under, capitalist or not. People have to think for themselves, and the only way people can do that is by thinking! :D

@ Pessimarxist

So you mean to say that we're all just trying to get by over here and that petty left/right differentiations aren't that important?


@ Explosive Situation


What exactly do you mean by the 'dark Satanic mills' rhetoric? I don't think I've ever heard of that. I haven't been in the field of Communism, not at least formally, very long, so I probably will be unlearned in the age-old and tired arguments and methods. About what you said concerning the proletarians, why wouldn't they? Under extreme circumstances such as the world being on the brink of global economic collapse I'm sure people would be more than willing to throw off the chains of capitalism and wage-labor if it meant keeping their family fed and their countrymen and themselves alive. Just a point on tendencies, I feel that ideally a vanguard party, or at least a 'leading section' of the party would push toward revolution. I don't mean to say I want professional revolutionaries, just people that are dedicated to it. I mean this in a way that these people work harder than their fellows to get Communism, but aren't professional. That's asking for trouble. Now, if the situation were that dire, I could imagine professing a group of people wholly dedicated to advocating it, but only under the circumstance that they were dissolved after the ordeal was over.

Do you mean that we won't be seeing any more revolutions that absolutely overthrow the bourgeois, just ones that expurgate them from power and establish required Communism, or do you mean to say that you're a reformist?

[Gecko]

The only problem with that idea for me is I live near Memphis, which is so extremely violent that nothing can be done. An average of 10 people a week die in Memphis from violent incidents. I'm actually afraid to go there and try to help, for fear I might die. I'm only 16, I don't want to die fighting for something that's not there yet.

And even worse, I don't live in Memphis, but near it, in a well-off suburb. My family altogether makes about $110,000-$120,000 a year, and we're in the middle of this society around here. We aren't poor, and neither is anyone around us. We don't have places to go do charity work for the poor, we don't have places to set up events. It's just so hard to try to convince people that fairness among workers is only logical when everyone around you works in an office and has a 6-figure income.

How am I supposed to help Communism if no one here will even give me enough of their time to listen? How am I supposed to help if it likely means my life will be lost if I try? How am I supposed to help if the people won't let me?

I think these things are what hinder us most: The country as a whole, at least in centers where there are thinkers and Communists, are rising in standard of living. Like it has been said time and time again, the divide between poor and rich is so great that the poor cannot afford to learn, or they starve, and the rich aren't in a position to care!

I feel helpless. None of my friends care, they all think that "meh, politics are politics, they won't affect me.", but they don't seem to realize that in a short two years, they will affect them! RevLeft, how do I convince my friends that Communism is fair, and that our current system is not? If I do convince them, how do I convince them to help me! I feel like I might be the only Communist for miles!

It seems to me you're highly intelligent and quite advanced for a 16 year old youth...
I think you have a lot of potential for leadership and guiding other youth onto the road of communist revolution..
finish high school and go to the university and there you will be able to definitely hook up with other advanced like minded youth..you sound like a future leader..the best of luck to you..raise hell and make revolution and have some fun while you are doing it to.. :)

[FriendlyLocalViking]

Just for those who came in late, the statement of mine that got deleted that people were agreeing with was thus: "I see this as an issue that you have to reverse with hard work. If you have Communist brigades go into poor areas and help out with construction or whatever is ghettos or projects (estates, for our British friends) and help out with charities and stuff, branding yourself openly as the whatever Communist Party of where-ever.

Only through action can you demonstrate that you're good guys. By sitting around in party offices and plotting the overthrow of a system (a very sketchy activity), all you Communists are doing is fuelling the flames of the Right. "

[Zanthorus]

Actually I think that a number of currents argue that Russia was too backwards for communism without help.

I'd think that's pretty much a given though isn't it? That socialism can't succeed unless it ousts capitalism from it's dominant position on the world stage. And that the revolution must spread internationally or be no revolution at all.

[AK]

I'd think that's pretty much a given though isn't it? That socialism can't succeed unless it ousts capitalism from it's dominant position on the world stage. And that the revolution must spread internationally or be no revolution at all.
This. It is a fact of life that any economy and society will stagnate without outside help from the rest of the world.

[Os Cangaceiros]

What exactly do you mean by the 'dark Satanic mills' rhetoric? I don't think I've ever heard of that. I haven't been in the field of Communism, not at least formally, very long, so I probably will be unlearned in the age-old and tired arguments and methods. About what you said concerning the proletarians, why wouldn't they? Under extreme circumstances such as the world being on the brink of global economic collapse I'm sure people would be more than willing to throw off the chains of capitalism and wage-labor if it meant keeping their family fed and their countrymen and themselves alive. Just a point on tendencies, I feel that ideally a vanguard party, or at least a 'leading section' of the party would push toward revolution. I don't mean to say I want professional revolutionaries, just people that are dedicated to it. I mean this in a way that these people work harder than their fellows to get Communism, but aren't professional. That's asking for trouble. Now, if the situation were that dire, I could imagine professing a group of people wholly dedicated to advocating it, but only under the circumstance that they were dissolved after the ordeal was over.

Do you mean that we won't be seeing any more revolutions that absolutely overthrow the bourgeois, just ones that expurgate them from power and establish required Communism, or do you mean to say that you're a reformist?

What I mean by what I said is that the Left overstates the antagonism between capital and labor, particularly in developed nations. The fact is that it's harder today to pinpoint your "oppressor" than it was before America or other nations became "post-industrial".

To illustrate: One of the more dramatic showdowns in the U.S. between workers and capital occured outside a factory in Ohio near the turn of the century. The workers were fired, and in response demanded that the factory was shut down for good. The National Guard was called in to break up the angry mob, who in response showered them with rocks and anything else they could get their hands on. The National Guard unit eventually ended up opening fire on the crowd, killing several people and wounding others.

The next day the mob again confronted the National Guard unit outside the factory, after first going to the nearby cemetery and smashing tombstones for more projectiles to throw at them. Think about that for a second: they smashed the graves of loved ones just for ammo to hurl at soldiers who had killed a number of their own just a day ago (the owners eventually capitulated and shut down the factory permanently). And that was just one event; pitched battles between labor and capital were fairly commonplace in the United States, all the way from 1876 through the Great Depression. Marx & Engels lived and worked in this time period, and I think that a lot of their (and anarchists like Goldman) work reflects this. However, that sort of fiery intesity no longer seems to exist in developed nations, and I think it's time that we took that into account as we move foward.

That may change as economic conditions worsen, though, as I believe they will.