Flag Burning?

[theblackmask]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt_sYsGFOBM

While the guy's plea of "This is bad press!" may be true(at about 2 minutes), what are the arguments against flag burning in this case? Couldn't the case be made for Israel being an illegal state, therefore, flag burning is ok? In this case, it is obvious that the people around him, at least, are very much for the flag burning. Is it the duty of revolutionaries in situations like this to step in and stop this behavior? Should we maybe explain more than screaming about bad press? Or is this something that is acceptable, given the circumstances?

I really have yet to form a concrete opinion on this, so any thoughts are welcome.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I don't have any trouble with any flag burning. Burn more flags I say. I don't get this U.S. obsession with how sacrilegious it is to burn flags. A flag is just a piece of cloth.

Bad press and bad press, Glenn Beck and his conservative pals will take whatever they can, burning flags or not. Burning a flag is a symbolic gesture of disobedience to the established order, a hint of wishing destruction of the national system as it stands, and is a rather vivid display at that (and pretty!).

Burning a flag is always acceptable and always okay.

[durhamleft]

I don't have any trouble with any flag burning. Burn more flags I say. I don't get this U.S. obsession with how sacrilegious it is to burn flags. A flag is just a piece of cloth.

Bad press and bad press, Glenn Beck and his conservative pals will take whatever they can, burning flags or not. Burning a flag is a symbolic gesture of disobedience to the established order, a hint of wishing destruction of the national system as it stands, and is a rather vivid display at that (and pretty!).

Burning a flag is always acceptable and always okay.

I burned a British flag at an anti-Iraq war protest, and received death threats because of it... its the usual 'traitor to your country' argument, as if I care.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Flags are symbols of nothing more than nationalist individual state, independent from the rest of the world, & also used as a competitive relic of the State. As a Marxist, I see the State as a tool to gain Communism, but only through the use of what is useful within the State, & flags are fucking useless. I say burn them all!

[28350]

Burning flags fuels global warming.

Just recycle them instead.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Burning flags fuels global warming.

Just recycle them instead.

Alright, then stop eating meat. Because the meat industries produces more Co2 than any vehicle combined. You ready to do that, I know I sure was. You want to change the climate like I do, then we must first change the system.

[The Guy]

If you want to make an impression, wash the flag, don't burn it!

(I got that quote from somewhere, but I can't remember where exactly)...

[Red Commissar]

In the end it's just a piece of cloth, but these kinds of actions can be manipulated by the media to try and drive home some message of these folks being anti-semitic, a favorite strawman of pundits.

[Ele'ill]

I personally don't have a problem with it but it can hurt movements. I'll use America as an example as that's what I'm most familiar with. We know that people freak out when something 'unpatriotic' happens- this is a constant. We also know that our movements are not strong enough yet to push for massive social change by themselves. It would be wise to cut the extreme behavior so that the community can relate and understand the message of the march, lock down, whatever.

[this is an invasion]

Alright, then stop eating meat. Because the meat industries produces more Co2 than any vehicle combined. You ready to do that, I know I sure was. You want to change the climate like I do, then we must first change the system.

Your last sentence contradicts the first.

[NGNM85]

If you want to make an impression, wash the flag, don't burn it!

(I got that quote from somewhere, but I can't remember where exactly)...

“If you want a symbolic gesture, don't burn the flag; wash it.”

-Norman Thomas

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

It's kind of hypocritical to be waving US flags at the same rally, since the Israel is essentially dependent on US support. That's one thing I just don't get, is Liberals who bring US flags to anti-war or immigrants' rights marches. Comrades need to educate these people on U$ history.

[TheSamsquatch]

I've burned many a flag and will continue to do so. Just as you can fly the flag to show support, i burn it to show opposition. I agree 100% that it's just cloth.

[Ele'ill]

I've burned many a flag and will continue to do so. Just as you can fly the flag to show support, i burn it to show opposition. I agree 100% that it's just cloth.


What good does burning a flag do if the majority of the people watching don't understand the message?

[NGNM85]

What good does burning a flag do if the majority of the people watching don't understand the message?

I really don't think it's particularly productive, but it can be amusing.

[TheSamsquatch]

What good does burning a flag do if the majority of the people watching don't understand the message?

If you burn a flag in the hopes of appealing to the masses, I just feel bad for you.

[Ele'ill]

If you burn a flag in the hopes of appealing to the masses, I just feel bad for you.

So then you don't think the masses are an important demographic to incorporate into a revolution?

Organize first- masturbate later.

[TheSamsquatch]

So then you don't think the masses are an important demographic to incorporate into a revolution?

Organize first- masturbate later.

It IS an important demographic.
I live in america, and looking around, i don't see too many people that would be willing to join a Communist movement or any other far-left movement, or even at least listen enough to understand what Communism really is for that matter.
There are some, but not many. Maybe i should have said 'in the masses of america'.
Identify who your target audience is - then organize - then break out the tissues.

[theblackmask]

That's kinda what I'm really trying to get down to. I think it's obvious that our society has been indoctrinated to believe in flag burning having some symbolism to it...in the end, I agree that it's just a piece of cloth. Acknowledging this fact does not change the fact that the majority of people completely disagree with that logic and may even take offense to the action.

[theblackmask]

Identify who your target audience is - then organize - then break out the tissues.

So if our target audience is activists, does that mean that others won't see our actions? Action doesn't exist in a vacuum, and I think it's hard to have a target audience during public actions.

[TheSamsquatch]

So if our target audience is activists, does that mean that others won't see our actions? Action doesn't exist in a vacuum, and I think it's hard to have a target audience during public actions.

I agree with you when you say that action doesn't exist in a vaccum. What i meant is, if i was to walk into a meeting of conservatives and burn a flag, what does that do? They would think i'm just trying to anger them. But if i unite with a group of people with similar ideas, and we burn a flag publicly and simultaneously send a clear message, why we are doing this, the effects would be much different.

[Ele'ill]

It IS an important demographic.
I live in america, and looking around, i don't see too many people that would be willing to join a Communist movement or any other far-left movement, or even at least listen enough to understand what Communism really is for that matter.
There are some, but not many. Maybe i should have said 'in the masses of america'.
Identify who your target audience is - then organize - then break out the tissues.


My point is that you can't use what the masses see as 'extreme tactics'. That defeats the entire purpose of movement building as they're going to feel attacked personally. You have to organize first. It shouldn't be you in the street burning a flag or other. It should be your once apathetic neighbor.

[TheSamsquatch]

My point is that you can't use what the masses see as 'extreme tactics'. That defeats the entire purpose of movement building as they're going to feel attacked personally. You have to organize first. It shouldn't be you in the street burning a flag or other. It should be your once apathetic neighbor.

That's exactly what i was getting at in my post before that one. It would be a personal attack, seemingly just to anger them.

[Ele'ill]

So if our target audience is activists, does that mean that others won't see our actions? Action doesn't exist in a vacuum, and I think it's hard to have a target audience during public actions.


Why the hell would your target audience be activists? That's like a movie filmed only for viewing by actors. What the left needs are organizers willing to show as an example- that the folks on the gulf coast (or even further 'upland') don't have to take the effects of BP's lying and loopholing off their coasts. THEY pay the price for it. Organize, march, lock-down, refuse.

It isn't hard to have an audience- in fact- there's no effort involved. You have no control over it but what you do have control over is the idea that an audience DOES exist and that you should probably react to it accordingly. What do you want to portray- how will it help the movement.

[Emile Armand]

I believe in the dissolution of nations and borders and therefor country flags have no meaning or symbolism to me. Burn them all.

[AK]

Burning flags before you've got the workers on your side is a bad tactic, I think. The vast majority of the working class are a bunch of nationalists who cry their eyes out once a few poor immigrants arrive on their doorstep. These kinds of tactics tend to isolate us from the workers and the media scrutinises us for it.

[RATM-Eubie]

Flags are just pieces of cloth. But i believe we must be careful how we burn it and once the media gets a hold of it especially if its the Israeli flag then a shit storm might come down upon us.

[AK]

Flags are just pieces of cloth. But i believe we must be careful how we burn it and once the media gets a hold of it especially if its the Israeli flag then a shit storm might come down upon us.
Maybe we could burn it alongside a Nazi flag whilst raising a (black/red/black-and-red - your choice, really) flag?

[¿Que?]

The more flag burning the average person sees, the more desensitized they will become to the fanatical implication clearly perpetuated by the corporate controlled media.

Incidentally, as many people probably know, burning the American flag is illegal and could land you in jail.

[Kyrite]

Alright, then stop eating meat. Because the meat industries produces more Co2 than any vehicle combined. You ready to do that, I know I sure was. You want to change the climate like I do, then we must first change the system.

I think he was kidding with his global warming comment...

[Kyrite]

Burning flags before you've got the workers on your side is a bad tactic, I think. The vast majority of the working class are a bunch of nationalists who cry their eyes out once a few poor immigrants arrive on their doorstep. These kinds of tactics tend to isolate us from the workers and the media scrutinises us for it.

I couldn't agree more. The flag is a symbol of misplaced pride for most workers, burning it will only enrage them...