Counterrevolutionary Workers

[The Vegan Marxist]

We've digressed on topics such as these, more along the lines of understanding that there are some sections of the working class that are enemies to our movement & shouldn't be seen as those within the proletarian struggle - for example, the police. Though, what other types of workers are there that we can classify as enemies to the proletarian struggle? My vote is for those who work for the IRS, but what does everyone else think?

[AK]

The vast majority of managers and supervisors - although some, such as myself (at times), would argue that they constitute a separate class.

[RedPaladin]

The police and soilders would uprise if they support the struggle, but on the other hand, they are parts of the state organ.

[AK]

The police and soilders would uprise if they support the struggle, but on the other hand, they are parts of the state organ.
Well if the police and the military have their own unions then at least there's a sign of discontent.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Well if the police and the military have their own unions then at least there's a sign of discontent.

They're still doing the bidding of the State's power, no matter whether they're part of a union or not. Just because there's a union involved, doesn't mean they're on our side. Incidents like the one that happened recently in Detroit where that cop shot the innocent 7 year old girl, that shows where the police's Class embodiment stands.

[el_chavista]

... there are some sections of the working class that are enemies to our movement & shouldn't be seen as those within the proletarian struggle - for example, the police...
Here is where an analysis about social classes comes handy as not all workers are proletarian -producing surplus.
Petty bourgeoisies employees like policemen, guards work for the enterprise managers and are not proletarians.
Actually in Venezuela there are real proletarians that are conservative, like the ones in the big industrial enclaves: a real working aristocracy due to the high wages they earn.

[ZeroNowhere]

Here is where an analysis about social classes comes handy as not all workers are proletarian -producing surplus.
Proletarians are wage-labourers, and do not necessarily produce surplus value (wage-labourers not necessarily producing value is affirmed in chapter 6, 'The Costs of Circulation', of Capital Vol. 2).

[el_chavista]

We can say, first, that while it is necessary to be paid to belong to the working class is not yet sufficient. Otherwise the cops, priests, some CEOs of large companies (especially public ones) and even the ministers would be exploited people and, potentially, comrades of those who repress, brutalize and make work with wages ten hundred times lower. Therefore it is essential to note that one of the characteristics of the proletariat is to produce surplus value.
source: http://es.internationalism.org/rint74proletariado (sorry, it is the ICC web page in Spanish).

[ZeroNowhere]

Ah, fair enough. If your analysis of capitalism is based on the ICC, rather than Marx, then evidently this is not the place to take that up.


Let us assume that he [agent of circulation] is simply a wage-labourer, even if one of the better paid.

[...]

Labour-power and labour-time must be spent to a certain degree in the circulation process (in so far as this is a mere change of form). But this now appears as an additional outlay of capital; a part of the variable capital must be deployed in acquiring these labour-powers that function only in circulation. This capital advance creates neither products nor value.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

According to Marx managers and the police are petty-bourgeois:

"In countries where modern civilization has become fully developed, a new class of petty-bourgeois has been formed, floating between proletariat and bourgeoisie, and ever renewing itself as a supplementary part of bourgeois society. The individual members of this class, however, are being constantly hurled down into the proletariat by the action of competition, and, as modern industry develops, they even see the moment approaching when they will completely disappear as an independent section of modern society, to be replaced in manufactures, agriculture and commerce, by overlookers, bailiffs and shopmen." - Manifesto of the Communist Party

Getting paid to do a job does not make one a member of the proletariat. If it did, cops, federal agents, prison wardens, army generals, CEOs and the President of the United States would all be proletarians.

[Devrim]

Therefore it is essential to note that one of the characteristics of the proletariat is to produce surplus value.


Ah, fair enough. If your analysis of capitalism is based on the ICC, rather than Marx, then evidently this is not the place to take that up.

It is true that it is an essential feature of the proletariat, as a class, not individual proletarians.

Devrim

[ZeroNowhere]

According to Marx managers and the police are petty-bourgeois:

"In countries where modern civilization has become fully developed, a new class of petty-bourgeois has been formed, floating between proletariat and bourgeoisie, and ever renewing itself as a supplementary part of bourgeois society. The individual members of this class, however, are being constantly hurled down into the proletariat by the action of competition, and, as modern industry develops, they even see the moment approaching when they will completely disappear as an independent section of modern society, to be replaced in manufactures, agriculture and commerce, by overlookers, bailiffs and shopmen." - Manifesto of the Communist Party
Except that this speaks precisely of the petite-bourgeoisie being replaced in manufactures, agriculture and commerce by overlookers, bailiffs and shopmen, who are not petite-bourgeois. Selling of labour-power as a commodity is more or less what defines the proletariat.


It is true that it is an essential feature of the proletariat, as a class, not individual proletarians.This much is more or less true, inasmuch as capital does require value to be valorized on the whole.


President of the United StatesMostly redistribution of existing surplus-value, as with rent. Wage-labour for the state still features the state as employer, and wages as such, but being president would not seem to involve the sale of labour-power as a commodity.