Memorial Day Revleft Shitstorm (4 Da Troops!)

[¿Que?]

Please list here whatever thoughts you have on memorial day. Or feel free to trash whatever someone else says about it. Let's do this one for the troops!

I'll start:

I think in a capitalist society, where troops are working for a State who serves the interests of capital, I cannot support those troops.

But all defectors should be welcomed into the movement.

Therefore, I cannot in good conscience celebrate "our" troops.

Well, you get the idea. Memorial day is a sham. It's the State guilt tripping the populace to support more wars and less freedom.

[Ele'ill]

I had a relative call me and wish me a 'Happy Memorial Day'.

[Ele'ill]

If it hadn't been created people would have pushed for a day of remembrance anyway. As an Anarchist I spend the day thinking of the victims of war both domestic killed by the police, abroad killed by soldiers and paramilitary hired by our military and as a writer and poet I think about the imperialist soldiers killed that perhaps spent their last breath wanting nothing more than to be at their homes with their families- to know that they were safe and cared for. As a human being I spend the day (historically very rarely) with friends and enjoy what we do have which is each other if nothing else.

[Bud Struggle]

A lot of good people, Proletarians for the most part, died to keep Fascism and other "isms" at bay and to keep us free in America.

I'm appreciative.

[Dean]

It was initially created to honor Union soldiers in the US civil war, so some of our local civil war partisans might like the holiday. Since it was established to honor the fallen in defense of bourgeois vs. bourgeois, I don't see any value in it personally.

Since then, it has become "a general holiday for all fallen US soldiers" but you know that's just a bunch of hot air.

Its an excuse to disseminate jingoistic propaganda to those who can no longer get it from the public school system. Nothing very unique.

[The Red Next Door]

Honestly, i can only celebrate in the name of those who fought in WW2, but fuck all the others wars. for me. today i am gonna to remember fallen revolutionaries instead. Long live Huey!

[mikelepore]

"Supporting the troops" was always meaningless anyway - not wrong, but meaningless. The phrase is meaningless grammatically. People can be for or against what someone does, says or thinks, but it has no meaning to say "I support you, and I'm not here referring to what you do, say or think --- I just referring to you."

[Robert]

The U.S. military has mostly been a force for liberation from totalitarianism, if not from wage slavery, and yes, I appreciate them.

That they incidentally protect established property interests should offend no fair-minded person.

[Demogorgon]

These things trouble me. The whole purpose is to encourage a pro-military mindset and that is very dangerous because it encourages people to be more supportive of military action.

Not to mention that in general deference to the military is fundamentally undemocratic.

If you watch mainstream debate you will see politicians opposed to war having to begin each statement with guff like "I want to preface this by saying I support the troops...", the fact that they have to go through that stupid ritual means that any point they make will inevitably be less forceful because it has been caked in guff, but woe betide them if they don't bother saying it because if they don't, their opponents who support war can avoid the point and pin them down with silly emotivism about "supporting our boys".

In short the whole things frames political debate in such a way that one's opinion is not given weight unless one assures the audience that they are pro-military. As the military is-in most societies-a fundamental threat to democracy, that presents a problem.

[Robert]

The whole purpose is to encourage a pro-military mindset and that is very dangerous because it encourages people to be more supportive of military action.

Can't violently disagree. I'd be happy to see the USA disarm.

After China, North Korea, and Iran.

[Demogorgon]

Can't violently disagree. I'd be happy to see the USA disarm.

After China, North Korea, and Iran.
I am not calling for disarmament at this stage. Simply for people not to be beholden to the military.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The only proper memorial day slogan is "Never again."

[¿Que?]

I guess, since there's a few hours left until memorial day weekend is over, I would like to ask, what are thoughts about our friends and family that are in the military, from an anti-government, socialist/communist/revleft perspective.

I have some friends that are in the military, and while I don't wish them harm in any way, I feel somewhat bad saying I don't appreciate what they did. But to be honest, I don't. I would have more respect if they had gone and joined the FARC or Zapatistas.

anyone has any thoughts on this last point?

[Ele'ill]

I guess, since there's a few hours left until memorial day weekend is over, I would like to ask, what are thoughts about our friends and family that are in the military, from an anti-government, socialist/communist/revleft perspective.

I have some friends that are in the military, and while I don't wish them harm in any way, I feel somewhat bad saying I don't appreciate what they did. But to be honest, I don't. I would have more respect if they had gone and joined the FARC or Zapatistas.

anyone has any thoughts on this last point?

First, you don't have to appreciate what they did. You appreciate them as people.

I assume that if a leftist is still friends with people they know who have enlisted in the military then those people enlisted for the reasons that most do. A hell of an exciting job and perhaps college benefits. You don't have a choice but to succeed when you enlist- there's no job interview and only a few tests which place you rather than excluding. There are careers waiting for them when and if they get out.

They likely would not have enlisted had someone presented them with certain facts around the time they began to think about enlisting.

[¿Que?]

They likely would not have enlisted had someone presented them with certain facts around the time they began to think about enlisting.
I've always had a soft spot for counter recruitment. I wonder why there isn't as much going on here than there used to be.

[Left-Reasoning]

The U.S. military has mostly been a force for liberation from totalitarianism

Lol.

[RGacky3]

A lot of good people, Proletarians for the most part, died to keep Fascism and other "isms" at bay and to keep us free in America.

I'm appreciative.

Really? My ass, the did'nt die to keep Americans Free, What war was ever fought to keep Americans free?

If that was the case you could argue that Julius Cesar conquered Gaul to keep Rome free, my ass.


Can't violently disagree. I'd be happy to see the USA disarm.

After China, North Korea, and Iran.

All of those countries put together are less dangerous to world peace than the US.

[Bud Struggle]

Really? My ass, the did'nt die to keep Americans Free, What war was ever fought to keep Americans free?

If that was the case you could argue that Julius Cesar conquered Gaul to keep Rome free, my ass.


However it works--I'm free and I'm thankful for it.

[RGacky3]

Don't thank the troops for it, they did'nt do shit for your freedom.

[Bud Struggle]

Don't thank the troops for it, they did'nt do shit for your freedom.


My parents came here from Poland in 1935 to build a better life and America provided it for them and me. (Though she denied it, one could make a plausible case that my mom was an illigal alien.)

America. Very, very good to me.

[RGacky3]

My parents came here from Poland in 1935 to build a better life and America provided it for them and me. (Though she denied it, one could make a plausible case that my mom was an illigal alien.)

America. Very, very good to me.

This rediculous concept, propogated over and over again in the US, that somehow "America" (Who knows what it is, no one ever actually says what they mean when they use the word) is responsible for the wealth people make in the country, yet peoples poverty is somehow not "America's" (again I don't even know what you are refering too) fault is absolutely baseless.

Can you imagine russian ologarchs thanking Russia for providing them a better life? It sounds rediculous, the same way calling a policial ideology un-Italian also sounds stupid, yet somehow in America it makes sense (it does'nt its just propeganda.

Even more stupid is thanking troops for freedoms? What on earth did any of the wars in the past have to do with your freedom? Freedoms in America were brought about by dissedents within America mostly, but somehow killing vietnameese or Iraqi people raises your freedom level?

Bud, do you realize that thanking troops for your freedom and thanking "America" for your money is, in the eyes of the rest of the world, as idiotic as soviet people in the 1930s thanking Stalin for everything? And the rest of the world has a good point.

[Robert]

thanking "America" for your money is, in the eyes of the rest of the world, as idiotic as soviet people in the 1930s thanking Stalin for everything? And the rest of the world has a good point.

No, dear abusive Gack, the comparison fails.

America is an idea, a great one, that hundreds of millions everywhere aspire to embrace. Specifically, the idea is of a country with a government of laws, not men (i.e., not a dictator like Stalin), based on principles, including liberty, democracy, equality, tolerance, faith, and justice.

I know you believe in none of those and will laugh hardest at "equality," but it is undeniably a principle we struggle daily to implement and honor. We fall short every day, sure, and we abuse our power at times, yes, but the historical trend of progress has been generally forward since 1776 (does anyone hear fifes, or is it just me?), through the Civil War and through the Civil Rights laws that are still enforced as we speak. All as material prosperity has undeniably increased for the average citizen, if too much for a few billionaires

That we haven't revolted and replaced all that with your "dictatorship of the proletariat" is a reality for which I thank my lucky stars daily.

[Bud Struggle]

Bud, do you realize that thanking troops for your freedom and thanking "America" for your money is, in the eyes of the rest of the world, as idiotic as soviet people in the 1930s thanking Stalin for everything? And the rest of the world has a good point.

You are right Gack. I don't thank America for anything. I thank only myself for what I have. I must be one freakin' superior human being comparied to the rest of the peons and pissants that inhabit the rest of the world.

I am successful because I'm so much smarter, cleverer, and better looking than 99.999% of the people on the globe. I would thank God--but of course we don't believe in him either--so it's jus ME ME ME!

How's that sound? :D :D :D

[RGacky3]

America is an idea, a great one, that hundreds of millions everywhere aspire to embrace. Specifically, the idea is of a country with a government of laws, not men (i.e., not a dictator like Stalin), based on principles, including liberty, democracy, equality, tolerance, faith, and justice.


Thats not America, those Ideas were around centuries before America, America is a country, a state, let me ask you, how serious would you take it if People refered to Greece as an idea, the idea of democracy, rule of law, and so on and so forth, its rediculous.


I know you believe in none of those and will laugh hardest at "equality," but it is undeniably a principle we struggle daily to implement and honor. We fall short every day, sure, and we abuse our power at times, yes, but the historical trend of progress has been generally forward since 1776 (does anyone hear fifes, or is it just me?), through the Civil War and through the Civil Rights laws that are still enforced as we speak. All as material prosperity has undeniably increased for the average citizen, if too much for a few billionaires


I believe in those principles, but I'm naive enough to call those prinicples collectively "America" they might as well be called "England" or "France" or whatever.

Also when you say "we" who are you talking about? American citizens? The ruling class? The government?

The historical trend worldwide has been toward a certain type of progress (in some areas), there is nothing unique about America in that sense, the only unique thing is its a world power right now, but even amung world powers its not unique.


That we haven't revolted and replaced all that with your "dictatorship of the proletariat" is a reality for which I thank my lucky stars daily.

First of all I've never been a supporter of the "dictatorship of the proletariat," but if your perfectly ok with 1% of the country controling 95% of the wealth and in turn controlling the political aspect of the country and that 1% being entirely driven by profit at others expense, then good for you.


You are right Gack. I don't thank America for anything. I thank only myself for what I have. I must be one freakin' superior human being comparied to the rest of the peons and pissants that inhabit the rest of the world.

I am successful because I'm so much smarter, cleverer, and better looking than 99.999% of the people on the globe. I would thank God--but of course we don't believe in him either--so it's jus ME ME ME!

How's that sound? :D :D :D

You could thank Capitalism, but then you'd also have to (rightfully so) blame capitalism for the missery. But thanking the troops is rediculous, and thanking "America" is meaningless. Be honest and rational instead.

[Bud Struggle]

You could thank Capitalism, but then you'd also have to (rightfully so) blame capitalism for the missery.

Yea but I don't have misery. Maybe other do, but what is that to me? If I were to think rationally and logically why should I care about your problems?

If I were to be completely logical--I would be completely selfish. And how does that help anyone?

[RGacky3]

Yea but I don't have misery. Maybe other do, but what is that to me? If I were to think rationally and logically why should I care about your problems?

If I were to be completely logical--I would be completely selfish. And how does that help anyone?

Being logical and rational has nothing to do with selfishness, thats an ethical question, and logic and rationality does'nt answer ethics quesions, it only deals with how to apply it.

[Bud Struggle]

Being logical and rational has nothing to do with selfishness, thats an ethical question, and logic and rationality does'nt answer ethics quesions, it only deals with how to apply it.

No. It is logical for me to look after me and mine. Maybe my tribe. Some of your Commie brothers would argue that there is no such thing as ethics.

And as for who I would thank for what I have--that would be as much as much my business as who you decide to blame forever reason you may have.

[La Comédie Noire]

No, dear abusive Gack, the comparison fails.

America is an idea, a great one, that hundreds of millions everywhere aspire to embrace. Specifically, the idea is of a country with a government of laws, not men (i.e., not a dictator like Stalin), based on principles, including liberty, democracy, equality, tolerance, faith, and justice.

I know you believe in none of those and will laugh hardest at "equality," but it is undeniably a principle we struggle daily to implement and honor. We fall short every day, sure, and we abuse our power at times, yes, but the historical trend of progress has been generally forward since 1776 (does anyone hear fifes, or is it just me?), through the Civil War and through the Civil Rights laws that are still enforced as we speak. All as material prosperity has undeniably increased for the average citizen, if too much for a few billionaires

That we haven't revolted and replaced all that with your "dictatorship of the proletariat" is a reality for which I thank my lucky stars daily.

Is that an American flag slowly rising behind you?

[¿Que?]

No. It is logical for me to look after me and mine. Maybe my tribe. Some of your Commie brothers would argue that there is no such thing as ethics.
I find this comment deeply offensive and hateful. In any case, what you call logical is only so if you take the premise that your own life is what is ultimately most important. On the other hand, some of us believe in a greater good. Only, you are getting the greater good confused with a sense of nationalism and exceptionalism.

However, you can't necessarily, logically that is, prove a greater good over individual survival or vice versa.

It's about premises, and it's only logical if you accept your premise that ones own survival is what matters most, which I don't.

[Bud Struggle]

I find this comment deeply offensive and hateful. I was giving an example of what happens if you take individual logic to its conclusion. I don't live that way and I don't recommend it for anyone else.


In any case, what you call logical is only so if you take the premise that your own life is what is ultimately most important. Correct. But it is a reasonable position taken by people in this world. (Again, not something I do.)


On the other hand, some of us believe in a greater good. Only, you are getting the greater good confused with a sense of nationalism and exceptionalism. What we are getting into here is a matter of personal preference. One person claims himself as the greatest good, another serving God, another his country, another humanity, another all life on earth.


However, you can't necessarily, logically that is, prove a greater good over individual survival or vice versa. Yup.


It's about premises, and it's only logical if you accept your premise that ones own survival is what matters most, which I don't. Me neither.

[¿Que?]

What we are getting into here is a matter of personal preference. One person claims himself as the greatest good, another serving God, another his country, another humanity, another all life on earth.

Well, you agreed with most of what I said, so I'm going to just deal with this part.

Once you accept the premise of a greater good, then I don't think you can define yourself as the greater good. It's greater because it's greater than you (by definition). And I wouldn't necessarily equate the greater good with the greatest good. Greatest is an absolute term, whereas greater is simply above our personal individual selves, but leaves room for new discoveries.

One thing I know is that relativism leads only to circular reasoning. While it's difficult not to accept a certain level of relativism, eventually, you have to either accept that there is a reality outside of our own experience, or not (whether it is possible to achieve any real knowledge of this reality is a different story). I would say, though, that accepting the premise of a greater good (provided it is properly defined) clears up the relativism problem right up.

Logically, I can say that a greater good is all humanity and perhaps all life on earth, because these are the highest level of abstraction that we have come to realize. While it is perfectly acceptable to suggest that ones country is a greater good, it would be foolish to argue that it is the greater good. God is also an absolute, and thus, cannot be considered provided these premises.

[Robert]

Thats not America, those Ideas were around centuries before America The ideas were there, but no one got them constitutionalized to our degree of sophistication until the Founding Fathers came along and actually did it, instead of just talking about it, this more than 10 years before the Bastille was stormed. Implementation of those constitutional principles has been beneficial to the majority of our citizens, rich and poor. How about a little respect?


I believe in those principles, but I'm naive enough to call those priniciples collectively "America" they might as well be called "England" or "France" or whatever.I guess you mean you're not naive enough to think .... But anyway, we more than slightly beat the British to the punch, wouldn't you agree?:lol: Hell, they still have a queen and the taxpayers pay for her servants I think! As for the French, yes, the Bastille was stormed after 1776, the Allies helped them with a little problem in Normandy in '44, they have it about right now, though their protections of free speech are less evolved than ours, and ... Gack, you know about Napoleon Bonaparte and his descendants, right? Napoleon III was a monarch until 1870.


Also when you say "we" who are you talking about?Mostly adult voters, working Americans, collective will expressed through their elected representatives. Come on, man, don't struggle against the obvious.


American citizens?Yes.


The ruling class?Don't make me laugh. The former 4-term governor of Louisiana is in prison right now, busted for corruption by good cops and a lot of hard investigative work. The former Democrat governor of Illinois is going to trial on bribery charges this very week. Jack Abramoff, Jeff Skilling, and Bernie Madoff were all members of your "ruling class," lived like pharoahs, and had the ear of Presidents. They're all in jail thanks to We the People. Live with it.


The goverment?Yes.


The historical trend worldwide has been toward a certain type of progress Yes. And America has helped greatly in the effort.


Is that an American flag slowly rising behind you? Oh no, it's always up there, nice and high, 24/7. It's a grand old flag.


even among world powers its not unique.Sure, our model has been the inspiration for many. But America had no established, working model to follow.

[Robert]

1% of the country controling 95% of the wealth and in turn controlling the political aspect of the country and that 1% being entirely driven by profit at others expense, then good for you.Do you know how and from whom Barack Obama raised his campaign money?

On edit, I agree there is excessive disparity in wealth distribution in the USA, but I question this "1% controls 95% of the wealth" claim. It sounds wildly exaggerated. And I think it is.

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

[Publius]

Don't make me laugh. The former 4-term governor of Louisiana is in prison right now, busted for corruption by good cops and a lot of hard investigative work. The former Democrat governor of Illinois is going to trial on bribery charges this very week. Jack Abramoff, Jeff Skilling, and Bernie Madoff were all members of your "ruling class," lived like pharoahs, and had the ear of Presidents. They're all in jail thanks to We the People. Live with it.

Good news guys, we caught ALL SIX of the corrupt politicians and lobbyists in the US!

Hooray!

Meanwhile in reality: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/;kw=[36899,157778]

Where do I the person get to decide how the financial reform bill turns out?

I don't know!

[A Revolutionary Tool]

The U.S. military has mostly been a force for liberation from totalitarianism, if not from wage slavery, and yes, I appreciate them.

That they incidentally protect established property interests should offend no fair-minded person.
WTF?! Taking land from the Natives, Mexicans, Filipinos, fighting to defend the dictatorship in South Vietnam, the dictatorship in South Korea, and countless other examples. It offends fair-minded people because it's not something incidental, it's not something that just coincidentally popped out of nowhere, that's the ultimate purpose of bourgeoisie states and they create armies to uphold themselves.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I guess, since there's a few hours left until memorial day weekend is over, I would like to ask, what are thoughts about our friends and family that are in the military, from an anti-government, socialist/communist/revleft perspective.

I have some friends that are in the military, and while I don't wish them harm in any way, I feel somewhat bad saying I don't appreciate what they did. But to be honest, I don't. I would have more respect if they had gone and joined the FARC or Zapatistas.

anyone has any thoughts on this last point?
Little late but whatever. I'm in the same boat, I have a step brother in Iraq and two cousins in Afghanistan. I'm on good terms with all of them but am I going to honor what they do? Come on two out of three of them only joined the military because they had no idea what to do with their lives and they get free education, free housing, etc. I bet they wouldn't have joined if they knew they would have been deployed overseas except for one who thinks it's all for some grand cause but thinks Obama is a commie so...But if they volunteered for a struggle that actually meant something to them(And was actually real) I would honor them for that.

[Robert]

Good news guys, we caught ALL SIX of the corrupt politicians and lobbyists in the US!Publius, I was hoping you all would recognize those as mere examples from a non-exhaustive list that came immediately to mind. I don't think it would have made any difference had I gone and scoured the court records of all 94 U.S. District courts and the courts of 50 states plus Puerto Rico, etc. for the last 50 years for every single incident of this "ruling class" that has been busted over the years.

Moreover, that's just politicians. The cops and the FBI etc. regularly bust, and then send to prison, crooked mortgage brokers, movie stars, Martha Stewartses (what is she, exactly?), cops, bureaucrats, salesmen, insurance executives, lawyers, bankers, exporter-importers, and physicians too, where they have the proof. All members of the "ruling" class. Brought down by guilty pleas or convictions by juries made up of ordinary Joes.

The narrow point is that the USA works on the principle that no one is above the law. Ask Nixon. (Never mind, he's dead.) That's important, that's good, and it's different from Stalinism, which is how this debate started somewhere above.

[Ele'ill]

Publius, I was hoping you all would recognize those as mere examples from a non-exhaustive list that came immediately to mind. I don't think it would have made any difference had I gone and scoured the court records of all 94 U.S. District courts and the courts of 50 states plus Puerto Rico, etc. for the last 50 years for every single incident of this "ruling class" that has been busted over the years.

Moreover, that's just politicians. The cops and the FBI etc. regularly bust, and then send to prison, crooked mortgage brokers, movie stars, Martha Stewartses (what is she, exactly?), cops, bureaucrats, salesmen, insurance executives, lawyers, bankers, exporter-importers, and physicians too, where they have the proof. All members of the "ruling" class.

The narrow point is that the USA works on the principle that no one is above the law. Ask Nixon. (Never mind, he's dead.) That's important, that's good, and it's different from Stalinism, which is how this debate started somewhere above.


So while the cops and feds are busting the politicians whose busting the cops and feds?

[Robert]

I'm on good terms with all of them but am I going to honor what they do?

Yes, of course, unless they are wantonly committing war crimes or something.

They are doing exactly what We the People, for better or worse, have asked them to do. If the mission is ignoble, and Afghanistan at least is not IMO, well, that isn't their fault.

[Ele'ill]

Yes, of course, unless they are wantonly committing war crimes or something.

They are doing exactly what We the People, for better or worse, have asked them to do. If the mission is ignoble, and Afghanistan at least is not IMO, well, that isn't their fault.


As human beings it would first be their duty to not take part in that vague and shadowy 'worse'

[Robert]

So while the cops and feds are busting the politicians whose busting the cops and feds?

Good cops and good feds.

Failing that, well ... there's always you and me.

Frankly, I'm more afraid of you than I am of any cop I ever met.:lol:

[Ele'ill]

Good cops and good feds.

Failing that, well ... there's always you and me.

Frankly, I'm more afraid of you than I am of any cop I ever met.:lol:


Oh so they investigate themselves. hmm. 'I guess that sounds reasonable to me' :rolleyes:

Frankly that's because one hasn't killed your family members yet. It's always peaches until it happens to you.

[Robert]

Oh so they investigate themselves.

I already answered that: sue them yourself and ask for a jury trial. I even gave you the statute. It addresses exactly the problem you describe. If that isn't good enough, I don't know what else to tell you.

[Ele'ill]

Most people don't have the time and money to fight that kind of battle. As for complaints you have to file with the police department and it's investigated by other cops.

[Robert]

Most people don't have the time and money to fight that kind of battle.

My last post in the thread, I promise:):

"Most people" are misinformed about their rights or how to invoke them. If you are going to be a genuine civil rights activist, please, please, please go and have a free consultation with a civil rights attorney in your area and let him/her explain what is involved in filing and fighting a civil rights lawsuit.

Check your in-box.

-R

[Ele'ill]

My last post in the thread, I promise:):

"Most people" are misinformed about their rights or how to invoke them. If you are going to be a genuine civil rights activist, please, please, please go and have a free consultation with a civil rights attorney in your area and let him/her explain what is involved in filing and fighting a civil rights lawsuit.

Check your in-box.

-R

I'll honor your request by not responding to this in an attacking manner in fact I'll let it go and not respond at all. I apologize for my part in the repetitive police conduct posts going on in like three different threads. Check YOUR inbox.

[Crusade]

No, dear abusive Gack, the comparison fails.

America is an idea, a great one, that hundreds of millions everywhere aspire to embrace. Specifically, the idea is of a country with a government of laws, not men (i.e., not a dictator like Stalin), based on principles, including liberty, democracy, equality, tolerance, faith, and justice.

I know you believe in none of those and will laugh hardest at "equality," but it is undeniably a principle we struggle daily to implement and honor. We fall short every day, sure, and we abuse our power at times, yes, but the historical trend of progress has been generally forward since 1776 (does anyone hear fifes, or is it just me?), through the Civil War and through the Civil Rights laws that are still enforced as we speak. All as material prosperity has undeniably increased for the average citizen, if too much for a few billionaires

That we haven't revolted and replaced all that with your "dictatorship of the proletariat" is a reality for which I thank my lucky stars daily.

What does a constitution mean if it's not even being followed? How do you fall "short" of equality? You either have it or you don't. "Progress" shouldn't have to be made gradually. The constitution is supposed to keep oppression at bay, not gradually phase it out over the next 300 years or so. That kind of progress is done in nations without this glorious constitution. In fact, quite a few of these countries reached equality a hell of a lot faster without it. Perhaps if those expressing grievances of this inequality weren't receiving hostile rebuttals of: "Isn't this the greatest country in the world? Why are you complaining? Go back to _________, see how they treat you there", fueled by American exceptionalism, they would have progressed further since the harsh realities of their world wouldn't contrast so strikingly with the rosy red tint of hyper patriotism of the American masses. Not to say that the constitution itself created this disconnect from reality, but the concept of America as some kind of "idea" certainly did.

As long as we have that "idea" we're cool, we don't have to live up to that idea or anything. As long as we take "baby" steps, we're fine. Even if we claim to BE that idea, no it's not that we actually ARE that, it's that we'll be that eventually, we promise. Inequality isn't something we have to slowly phase out. It's a course of action that could be stopped at any time. The problem is here in America, a nation STARTED by revolutionaries, we frown on those who want to get to the root of the problem. As if being out of the mainstream in this day and age is some kind of flaw.

[RGacky3]

No. It is logical for me to look after me and mine. Maybe my tribe. Some of your Commie brothers would argue that there is no such thing as ethics.


So what, your not talking to them your talking to me, and your talking for yourself, and you DO believe in ethics, and most communists to believe in ethics considering its a human (thus ethical) issue, so cut the crap.


And as for who I would thank for what I have--that would be as much as much my business as who you decide to blame forever reason you may have.

So I hurt my shin the other day, that was Americas fault, does that make sense?

heres teh thing Bud, its simple, what we value as humans is called ethics, and how that value applies to everyday life is figured out rationally.

But your changing the subject, you still hav'nt explained how the troops are to thank for your freedom??? Or what "America" is, and how it is to thank for your wealth, and why "America" chose to bless you and curse most other people, again, you do understand that to the rest of the world your patriotic blabber sounds as creepy as what went on in totalitarian states.


The ideas were there, but no one got them constitutionalized to our degree of sophistication until the Founding Fathers came along and actually did it, instead of just talking about it, this more than 10 years before the Bastille was stormed. Implementation of those constitutional principles has been beneficial to the majority of our citizens, rich and poor. How about a little respect?

Most of it came from the magna carta.


I guess you mean you're not naive enough to think .... But anyway, we more than slightly beat the British to the punch, wouldn't you agree?:lol: Hell, they still have a queen and the taxpayers pay for her servants I think! As for the French, yes, the Bastille was stormed after 1776, the Allies helped them with a little problem in Normandy in '44, they have it about right now, though their protections of free speech are less evolved than ours, and ... Gack, you know about Napoleon Bonaparte and his descendants, right? Napoleon III was a monarch until 1870.

Yeah they had the queen, and America does silly stuff too, also you can thank Russia as much as if not more so than the US for WW2, also, the british had a parliment and a democratic system way before the US, also who cares who had it first, there were tons of smaller democratic societies (that were not nation states) before the United States all over the world, and just because the US wrote it down in a Nation-State, does'nt mean that you can have the arrogance to put the name of your country down as the essense of those ideals. Maybe switzerland can saw switzerland means "peace, prosperity, freedom and security."

Maybe people who believe in freedom and democracy in Greece or Brazil or the Philipines believe in "America" too right? Whenever you say you love peace, you should say "I love switzerland" because it makes just as much sense.


Mostly adult voters, working Americans, collective will expressed through their elected representatives. Come on, man, don't struggle against the obvious.

well the voters don't fall short, the voters don't abuse their power, the voters don't wage war and exploit, the voters are not a world power, the voters dont ruin the economy, the voters don't screw themselves over so it can't mean them.


Don't make me laugh. The former 4-term governor of Louisiana is in prison right now, busted for corruption by good cops and a lot of hard investigative work. The former Democrat governor of Illinois is going to trial on bribery charges this very week. Jack Abramoff, Jeff Skilling, and Bernie Madoff were all members of your "ruling class," lived like pharoahs, and had the ear of Presidents. They're all in jail thanks to We the People. Live with it.

So what, sometimes in monarchies some monarchs or nobles had their heads cut off by other monarchs and nobles, that does'nt mean the rulling system changed, ther ruling class still controls the United States and most of the world.


Yes. And America has helped greatly in the effort.

I don't know, ask Iranians, aks Nigeraguans, ask Salvadorians, ask Chileans, ask Mexicans, ask Greeks, ask philinos, ask iraqies (the US helped Saddam get in), ask Cubans, ask, Guatamalens, ask Indonesians, aks east timoreese, ask vietnamese, ask a pelistinian and so on and so forth.


Oh no, it's always up there, nice and high, 24/7. It's a grand old flag.


You are such a tool.


Sure, our model has been the inspiration for many. But America had no established, working model to follow.

if by inspiration you mean a model that has been used to make other nations subservient through ecnomic exploitation and threat of violence, then yeah.


They are doing exactly what We the People, for better or worse, have asked them to do. If the mission is ignoble, and Afghanistan at least is not IMO, well, that isn't their fault.

Really? I never got asked.

[Bud Struggle]

So what, your not talking to them your talking to me, and your talking for yourself, and you DO believe in ethics, and most communists to believe in ethics considering its a human (thus ethical) issue, so cut the crap. I do believe in ethics--but I have been warned by "the powers that be" that arguing things from a Catholic vewpoint is discouraged.


heres teh thing Bud, its simple, what we value as humans is called ethics, and how that value applies to everyday life is figured out rationally. To and extent. Most people here thought wouldn't consider belief in an "author" of ethics (i.e. God) rational.


But your changing the subject, you still hav'nt explained how the troops are to thank for your freedom??? They keep up the status quo--which for me has been a very good thing.


Or what "America" is, and how it is to thank for your wealth, and why "America" chose to bless you and curse most other people, again, you do understand that to the rest of the world your patriotic blabber sounds as creepy as what went on in totalitarian states. I had nothing, now I have something and America provided the framework for me to go from one place to another. It's as simple as that. I like that it provides me--and people like me--a chance to move ahead if we have the desire and talent. I like it not just for me but for all of the other entrepreneaurs, some of them in the state prision that I teach in. I love watching them become successes and self made men.

Same with the workers I know, some of them working for me. They are happy with the America system. There are always small complaints about this and that--but I don't doubt that every worker I know (besides for those 1/2 doz. stoners I met when I was in the IWW) would gladly defend this way of life.

And you know, guys like me would little by little turn your Communism into the USSR and then into Capitalism anyway. It's human nature.

[RGacky3]

I do believe in ethics--but I have been warned by "the powers that be" that arguing things from a Catholic vewpoint is discouraged.

Catholocism is a organized religion, ethics are something different, many times derived from an organized religion, for example as a Catholic you probably believe extra-marital sex is immoral, so you don't engage in it, and how you live is based on your ethical code wherever it comes from, be it your religion, the way you were raised or whatever, the fact is what you are doing is keeping or shedding your ethics whenever it suits you, which is hypocritical.


To and extent. Most people here thought wouldn't consider belief in an "author" of ethics (i.e. God) rational.


God is just one author of ethics, there can be others, the fact is if you say something is ethically wrong you have to apply it universaly otherwise you cannot say its wrong, where it comes from for you personally does'nt matter.

If I say lying is wrong, then I'll try not to lie, If I say its wrong and then blatently defend it or do it when it benefits me I'm a hypocrite.

My point is don't be a hypocrite.


They keep up the status quo--which for me has been a very good thing.


How do they keep the status quo in the US? How does it benefit you, again your gonna need to make an actual connection, Russia also keeps up the status quo, why don't you thank Russia?


I had nothing, now I have something and America provided the framework for me to go from one place to another. It's as simple as that. I like that it provides me--and people like me--a chance to move ahead if we have the desire and talent. I like it not just for me but for all of the other entrepreneaurs, some of them in the state prision that I teach in. I love watching them become successes and self made men.


That happens all over the world, its nothing unique to America.


Same with the workers I know, some of them working for me. They are happy with the America system. There are always small complaints about this and that--but I don't doubt that every worker I know (besides for those 1/2 doz. stoners I met when I was in the IWW) would gladly defend this way of life.


Defend it against what? I'm sure if their other option was more democracy they would rather that, but that option is never given to them is it?

And again, what you said could be said about almost any country.


You are talking about some Alice in Wonderland and most people don't buy that kind of stuff.

What democracy?


And you know, guys like me would little by little turn your Communism into the USSR and then into Capitalism anyway. It's human nature.

How? It has'nt happened in any genuinely socialist society in the past .... EVER.

I guarantee you that argument was made when democracies started, they probably said "they'll just turn back into monarchies, its human nature."

Because humanity has never improved right? But you don't believe in humanity, and honestly, it does'nt seam like you believe in the christian God (based on your world view).

[Bud Struggle]

Gack, I've been poor I've been rich, I've lived in the back seat of a car and heated spagettios on my engine block. I've met a really hot Swedish princess and lived in a NYC penthouse. I'm a son of two Polish immigrants and have a funny last name and I would have been dead or never been born if they didn't come to America when they did.


All I could say is YEE-HA! America is one great ride. And I'm thankful for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNDcAWNscg8

[Ele'ill]

Gack, I've been poor I've been rich, I've lived in the back seat of a car and heated spagettios on my engine block. I've met a really hot Swedish princess and lived in a NYC penthouse. I'm a son of two Polish immigrants and have a funny last name and I would have been dead or never been born if they didn't come to America when they did.


All I could say is YEE-HA! America is one great ride. And I'm thankful for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNDcAWNscg8


How and why do we take sides regarding atrocities?

If someone or some group helps me and they're responsible for many deaths how can I accept and support them? Should I simply do so because they represent my existence?

[Bud Struggle]

How and why do we take sides regarding atrocities? They're bad.


If someone or some group helps me and they're responsible for many deaths how can I accept and support them? Should I simply do so because they represent my existence? Lots of sides represent deaths. Capitalists--sure, Communist's too. We should all work for peace.

But I'm as responsible for deaths caused by random Capitalists as you are by deaths caused by Stalin. You take responsibility for him?

[Ele'ill]

They're bad.

Lots of sides represent deaths. Capitalists--sure, Communist's too. We should all work for peace.

But I'm as responsible for deaths caused by random Capitalists as you are by deaths caused by Stalin. You take responsibility for him?

(I'm not a communist but...)

I think it's my place to make sure it never happens again and the current systems that kill are shutdown forever.

[Bud Struggle]

(I'm not a communist but...)

I think it's my place to make sure it never happens again and the current systems that kill are shutdown forever.

I'm not a Capitalist--I'm a Christian Democrat myself, but I think the people responsible should be brought to justice and punished.

[Raúl Duke]

Isn't memorial day reduced to "BBQ at house with a 6 pack of beer with the family/friends/etc" day (incidentally, I missed out on even that this year)? I haven't heard a single person tell me any words of gratitude to members of the armed forces that day/weekend. Than again, I'm in PR right now but not even on FB did my American friends mention anything except that they were having a chill time on memorial day.

I have one cousin in the military and one uncle was a career soldier during Desert Storm while a few where drafted for Vietnam.

[Bud Struggle]

Isn't memorial day reduced to "BBQ at house with a 6 pack of beer with the family/friends/etc" day (incidentally, I missed out on even that this year)? I haven't heard a single person tell me any words of gratitude to members of the armed forces that day/weekend.

To be honest--the only place I expressed any gratitude to American troops is here on RevLeft.

[RGacky3]

I'm not a Capitalist--I'm a Christian Democrat myself, but I think the people responsible should be brought to justice and punished.

What does a Christian Democrat mean??? Also I question the Christian part significantly, and democrat can mean almost anything these days.


But I'm as responsible for deaths caused by random Capitalists as you are by deaths caused by Stalin. You take responsibility for him?

We don't and never have upheld his government or his system, you uphold the capitalist system and the US government.


Gack, I've been poor I've been rich, I've lived in the back seat of a car and heated spagettios on my engine block. I've met a really hot Swedish princess and lived in a NYC penthouse. I'm a son of two Polish immigrants and have a funny last name and I would have been dead or never been born if they didn't come to America when they did.


All I could say is YEE-HA! America is one great ride. And I'm thankful for it.

There are Chineese and Russians with your same story, infact people all over the world, America is not unique.