g20 Toronto

[Ele'ill]

What are some thoughts on tactics at this point?

I would be in favor of non-violent civil disobedience- as I usually am. It would highlight the brutality of the police and the monumental waste of money.

In the non-activist public's mind, the police have a right to assemble to protect capital (windows and whatever else) but I don't think they'd buy the police beating and spraying people in a lock down.



http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20100530034732643

[Ele'ill]

Also, does anyone know if that article's '930 million dollar' estimate for security is accurate?

Last I heard it was around 153 with the city of Toronto taking care of about 7 million of it.

[Salyut]

Also, does anyone know if that article's '930 million dollar' estimate for security is accurate?

I understand its actually something like 1.1 billion. They're going through all the stops too, shutting down the CN tower, closing the Tim Hortons...

[bcbm]

What are some thoughts on tactics at this point?


the usual suspects will break some shit while the other usual suspects whine and complain endlessly about it. most everyone else won't really give a fuck and forget about it by the end of the week.

[Bud Struggle]

the usual suspects will break some shit while the other usual suspects whine and complain endlessly about it. most everyone else won't really give a fuck and forget about it by the end of the week.

Those are indeed the standard tatics for an event like this. :)

[RGacky3]

Those are indeed the standard tatics for an event like this.

When they had it in Seattle things went a bit differently, everynow and then things make an impact.

[Bud Struggle]

When they had it in Seattle things went a bit differently, everynow and then things make an impact.


Do you think may people really care except for the usual suspects? To be honest--I bet 99%of the people of the US let alone the wrold even know wht the heck is going on in Toronto.

[RGacky3]

Do you think may people really care except for the usual suspects? To be honest--I bet 99%of the people of the US let alone the wrold even know wht the heck is going on in Toronto.

The majority of the third world cares, believe that, if it directly affects Americans the same way as it affects much of the third world, they would care too.

[Ele'ill]

Do you think may people really care except for the usual suspects? To be honest--I bet 99%of the people of the US let alone the wrold even know wht the heck is going on in Toronto.


When 100,000 people (from my experience most are local) take to the streets in their own city to demonstrate against something together it makes ideas move. It isn't a time to 'revolt' and it isn't the revolution it's a vacation for the people that have been fighting the problems caused by the g20 and their stupid fucking meeting. It's a time for like minded people to meet-up.



Let's say you have local anti police brutality movements. People in the community then watch the news and see police brutaizing (beating, spraying, pushing, shoving, swearing) demonstrators that are peacefully sitting down. They make the connection.

"Why are the unions striking? Hey, I'm a union member myself, what's this about solidarity? Hmm I'm interested now."




Also, watching n30 Seattle unfold on the news is what got me more interested in mass movement than anything else. It revitalized my hope for the future and got me back into activism. It works.

[Robert]

People in the community then watch the news and see police brutaizing (beating, spraying, pushing, shoving, swearing) demonstrators that are peacefully sitting down. They make the connection.

Since everyone has a digital camera or phone camera, I'd like to see some video of U.S. policemen beating and spraying demonstrators that are peacefully sitting down.

[Ele'ill]

Since everyone has a digital camera or phone camera, I'd like to see some video of U.S. policemen beating and spraying demonstrators that are peacefully sitting down.


Look at the riot porn thread I created. Images from Seattle's non violent civil disobedience during lock downs.


In Pittsburgh, students at the University were sprayed and gassed in their dorms. Some were chased down into their dorms.

I hope you aren't suggesting that police brutality as a system of action, doesn't exist.

[RGacky3]

Since everyone has a digital camera or phone camera, I'd like to see some video of U.S. policemen beating and spraying demonstrators that are peacefully sitting down.

Just because Fox news does'nt cover it does'nt mean it does'nt exist.

[Robert]

I'm happy to review a tape from any source whatsoever, dear Gack.

[Robert]

I hope you aren't suggesting that police brutality as a system of action, doesn't exist.

Not at all. I just like pictures.

Pictures of police brutalizing peaceful, sitting demonstrators.

on edit: "She just threw her bicycle at a police officer and the officer is arresting her." This was from one of the videos in the riot porn thread, the one with the gripping violin music playing in the background.

Anyway, assaulting a police officer is a crime in all 50 states. If you want to get arrested, go assault a police officer.

[nuisance]

Not at all. I just like pictures.

Pictures of police brutalizing peaceful, sitting demonstrators.
How about a vid?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2GOdOYegW4&feature=related

5.56 mins onwards.

[Ele'ill]

Not at all. I just like pictures.

Pictures of police brutalizing peaceful, sitting demonstrators.

on edit: "She just threw her bicycle at a police officer and the officer is arresting her." This was from one of the videos in the riot porn thread, the one with the gripping violin music playing in the background.

Anyway, assaulting a police officer is a crime in all 50 states. If you want to get arrested, go assault a police officer.


I also want to keep you in the loop regarding the laws you seem to want to talk about. People have a legal right to defend themselves from the police. The fact that people demonstrating can defend themselves, assault an office, be arrested and charged with a felony assaulting an officer and get off without much of any charges is because of videos like the one you're describing where the police were using excessive force against a peaceful demonstration. The police will often times try to incite a 'riot' or incite an aggressive response (defense) and use it as justification to brutalize and mass arrest.

I have been involved in many different demonstrations of varying intensity and I can tell you that the police are more often than not the ones inciting aggressive defensive behavior from the people protesting.

[Robert]

People have a legal right to defend themselves from the police

Sure. Better than that, they have laws entitling them to damages for harm resulting from violation of their civil rights. U.S. laws enacted by a U.S. Congress. Those laws are real and they work. Remember Stacey Koon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stacey_Koon)?

See generally 42 U.S.C. §1983 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/1983.html) .

If the point is simply that "People have a right to defend themselves from police," that hasn't been an issue in the USA since at least 1968. The police have a right and a duty to maintain public order and protect private property. Yes, I realize you define "public order" differently than I do.

If your point is that there are many bad cops and even entire bad police departments that countenance corruption and misbehavior, this is also not subject of disagreement.

To the extent, however that the anarchist viewpoint is that cops are pigs who are "more often than not" prone to violating civil rights and therefore should be eliminated from public life (not reformed), I think that is just insane.

It was cops that just arrested my current favorite scumbag, Joran Van der Sloot (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/06/03/Van-der-Sloot-arrested-in-Chile/UPI-61601275519342/), no child of the ghetto he, who is now implicated in a second murder, this time of a young Peruvian girl. Personally, I'm glad there were cops to arrest him.

The Van der Sloot's are not going away after the revolution.

[nuisance]

To the extent, however that the anarchist viewpoint is that cops are pigs who are "more often than not" prone to violating civil rights and therefore should be eliminated from public life (not reformed), I think that is just insane.
That's not the anarchist viewpoint.
The police are part of the State which exists to capital and to manage the control of civil society, which means silencing dissent. Anarchists don't argue that the police force does not provide socially necessary functions, such as catching murderers, as you reference, nor do we believe that such roles will not be needed to be performed in a revolutionised society.
Our objection to the police is because they exist to protect capital and regulate individual choice and interaction, not because they're bad people or some other liberal shit.

[Bud Struggle]

5.56 mins onwards.

But up TO 5.56 the protesters were smashing windows, looting and generally being pretty nasty to the police and other people.

[nuisance]

But up TO 5.56 the protesters were smashing windows, looting and generally being pretty nasty to the police and other people.
So? Were the people sitting down, peacefully demonstrating participating in the the rucus?

[Bud Struggle]

So? Were the people sitting down, peacefully demonstrating participating in the the rucus?

No, they got swept up in the general turmoil of the event and that shouldn't have happened. The beginning of the film was just dreadful and unfortunately those guys set the pace for what happened afterwards.

Agreed the police should have done a better job seperating out the good 'uns from the bad 'uns. I'm fair.

[Ele'ill]

Sure. Better than that, they have laws entitling them to damages for harm resulting from violation of their civil rights. U.S. laws enacted by a U.S. Congress. Those laws are real and they work. Remember Stacey Koon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stacey_Koon)?


The issue becomes who investigates the incident. With no civil review board and only an 'internal affairs' review you have a consolidation of power and it breaks down to union cops investigating their buddy union cops. That's bullshit.


If the point is simply that "People have a right to defend themselves from police," that hasn't been an issue in the USA since at least 1968. The police have a right and a duty to maintain public order and protect private property. Yes, I realize you define "public order" differently than I do.

It has always been an issue. People hear about 'two men shot to death by police' as a news headline and generally assume that the police were right. From my experience most of the cases involving police shooting people are highly questionable.


If your point is that there are many bad cops and even entire bad police departments that countenance corruption and misbehavior, this is also not subject of disagreement.

I am saying the idea of police creates a perpetual indoctrination process that caters to murders and individuals that are too unstable to do what the cities and neighborhoods need.


To the extent, however that the anarchist viewpoint is that cops are pigs who are "more often than not" prone to violating civil rights and therefore should be eliminated from public life (not reformed), I think that is just insane.

I have seen neighborhoods and areas of cities rise up and take charge via civil defense forces in the United States because their police forces were too corrupt and generally ineffective at dealing with various problems. It was the opposite of insane it was fluid and worked well.


It was cops that just arrested my current favorite scumbag, Joran Van der Sloot (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/06/03/Van-der-Sloot-arrested-in-Chile/UPI-61601275519342/), no child of the ghetto he, who is now implicated in a second murder, this time of a young Peruvian girl. Personally, I'm glad there were cops to arrest him.

I don't support a force that works part of the time and fucks off and kills innocent people and violates civil rights the other half. Fuck that broken cog. Anyone clapping for a murderous racist because they arrested a burglar or pedophile is ignoring the person's crimes. These people are precinct sluts that have wet dreams in blue. Their support is baseless and perhaps the definition of insane.

Nevermind the links between white cops and neo-fascists in PDX.

[nuisance]

No, they got swept up in the general turmoil of the event and that shouldn't have happened. The beginning of the film was just dreadful and unfortunately those guys set the pace for what happened afterwards.

Agreed the police should have done a better job seperating out the good 'uns from the bad 'uns. I'm fair.
That was a controlled situation, as we could see the police weren't under any threat, in a seperate part of the city....

[Bud Struggle]

I don't support a force that works part of the time and fucks off and kills innocent people and violates civil rights the other half. Fuck that broken cog. Anyone clapping for a murderous racist because they arrested a burglar or pedophile is ignoring the person's crimes. These people are precinct sluts that have wet dreams in blue. Their support is baseless and perhaps the definition of insane.

You are being a bit shrill there. Granted there are some bad cops, but more are decent Proletarians that work for their alienated money and are treated like shit from people that should be their Comrades.

[Ele'ill]

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Here's a decent example of police brutalizing peaceful demonstrators.

[Ele'ill]

You are being a bit shrill there. Granted there are some bad cops, but more are decent Proletarians that work for their alienated money and are treated like shit from people that should be their Comrades.


The reason military or police abolition won't work is because all those people need jobs. The cop that shows up for work and is nice to everyone and does a decent job is no different than a civil defense force aside from the fact that they're part of a corrupt organization and that they have entirely too much power behind them that they carry with.

I don't advocate people walking up to a police line and being verbally volatile. I advocate heckling, sure. I don't tolerate people spitting on police because the issue isn't any random cop you feel like targeting verbally or physically or whatever it might be deserves it personally. They might, but there are other ways to go about it that are more affective. It really almost always boils down to effectiveness of tactic and not so much keeping their feelings unhurt.

[Bud Struggle]

That was a controlled situation, as we could see the police weren't under any threat, in a seperate part of the city....

We don't know from the video that it was a separate part of the city--but more importantly there is a reprocussion for civil disobedience. And often people get arrested for it. It's how these things have played out in America for over 200 years. You want the police to just go away when you want to do something they don't like? It doesn't work that way, that's not how it's done. You have to earn the right to protest. The police weren't beating people over the head--they were dispersing them.

Personally I think they might have gone easier on these guys, but that's just me.

Welcome to the grown up world, Comrade.

Also a funny thing in the video--when the Black reporter was interviewing the Communist and the Commie was saying how they should get rid of private property, etc. the cameraman flashed down to the Commie's shoes and he was wearing Nikes. :)

[Ele'ill]

We don't know from the video that it was a separate part of the city--but more importantly there is a reprocussion for civil disobedience. And often people get arrested for it. It's how these things have played out in America for over 200 years. You want the police to just go away when you want to do something they don't like? It doesn't work that way, that's not how it's done. You have to earn the right to protest. The police weren't beating people over the head--they were dispersing them.

With CS gas which is a chemical weapon.




Also a funny thing in the video--when the Black reporter was interviewing the Communist and the Commie was saying how they should get rid of private property, etc. the cameraman flashed down to the Commie's shoes and he was wearing Nikes. :)

They flashed down to the reporter's shoes.

[nuisance]

We don't know from the video that it was a separate part of the city--but more importantly there is a reprocussion for civil disobedience. And often people get arrested for it. It's how these things have played out in America for over 200 years.
We do know that the kick off was in a seperate part of the city. That's because the WTO summit erupted in the Downtown area. And if there was smashing and rock throwing, do you really think the cops in the areas priority would be a bunch of people sitting in the street while the police could calmly manourve? I doubt it.
Anyway, you've already changed you're stance. First you state that they are brutalized because of the kick off. However there was in a different place. Yet know you are claiming that it's understandable for the police to hit, kick, pull hair and mace people sitting down offering no phyiscal resistance? Yes, you can get civil disobedience, there's nothing new about that. However, there's a difference between arresting someone and attacking them.


You want the police to just go away when you want to do something they don't like? It doesn't work that way, that's not how it's done. You have to earn the right to protest. The police weren't beating people over the head--they were dispersing them.
Stop making assumptions on my position. I don't expect police to wander off, nor am I naive enough to sit down and expect them to be nice little buggers. My aim is always to stay up and mobile.
Earn the right to protest? The protest was officially granted, does that not count as a 'right' in your books?
No head shots, so it's ok? eh, nice.

Personally I think they might have gone easier on these guys, but that's just me.

Welcome to the grown up world, Comrade.
You're so wise! :rolleyes:


Also a funny thing in the video--when the Black reporter was interviewing the Communist and the Commie was saying how they should get rid of private property, etc. the cameraman flashed down to the Commie's shoes and he was wearing Nikes. :)

It's quite obvious that they're the reporters shoes.... Anyway, so what if the anarcho was wearing nikes?

[Bud Struggle]

We do know that the kick off was in a seperate part of the city. That's because the WTO summit erupted in the Downtown area. And if there was smashing and rock throwing, do you really think the cops in the areas priority would be a bunch of people sitting in the street while the police could calmly manourve? I doubt it.
Anyway, you've already changed you're stance. First you state that they are brutalized because of the kick off. However there was in a different place. Yet know you are claiming that it's understandable for the police to hit, kick, pull hair and mace people sitting down offering no phyiscal resistance? Yes, you can get civil disobedience, there's nothing new about that. However, there's a difference between arresting someone and attacking them. First of all the only thing I have to go by is your video so there's no why I could know what part of town anything is happening in. While I take your word that the sit down protest was somewhere else--it was part of the same demonstration.

That being said--it's all part of getting moved. If the police give you a lawful order to move and you don't do it--they move you. That should be expected. I would think that how that sort of thing happens. Personally, I would have hoped they would have used more self restraint. I would have also have hoped that the protesters would not have distroyed people's privat property and looted the stores, too.


Stop making assumptions on my position. I don't expect police to wander off, nor am I naive enough to sit down and expect them to be nice little buggers. My aim is always to stay up and mobile. That would definitely be the beter way o go.


Earn the right to protest? The protest was officially granted, does that not count as a 'right' in your books? A lawfully granted right to protest doesn't mean that you can disobey the police. Those are just how the rules go.


No head shots, so it's ok? eh, nice. As I said--they could have been nicer, but if you disobey the police you can't always expect them to bring you coffee and donuts.

[Robert]

don't support a force that works part of the time and fucks off and kills innocent people and violates civil rights the other half. Fuck that broken cog. Anyone clapping for a murderous racist because they arrested a burglar or pedophile is ignoring the person's crimes.

I gave you an example of a career cop that went to prison for violating civil rights laws. Laws made and enforced by the very government you apparently want to eliminate.

You have to incorporate that reality into your anarchist worldview somehow.

Good luck.

[Robert]

From my experience most of the cases involving police shooting people are highly questionable.

Most???

You mean all don't you? If you concede that even a single police shooting was justifiable, then I have to reject any broad arguments about the invalidity of the exercise of police power, and review their actions on a case by case basis. To do otherwise is to stereotype. I reject stereotypes.

Also, what is your experience with police shootings? Most occur during bank robbery standoffs and late night drug busts. I can't envisage any revlefters in the thick of that kind of activity

Anyway, I agree with Bud that most cops aren't psycopaths, just average Joes that we all went to high school with and who want to protect their communities from the Jeffrey Dahmers, Charles Whitmans, and John Wayne Gacy's of this world.

[Ele'ill]

Most???

You mean all don't you? If you concede that even a single police shooting was justifiable, then I have to reject any broad arguments about the invalidity of the exercise of police power, and review their actions on a case by case basis. To do otherwise is to stereotype. I reject stereotypes.

Perhaps I'm thinking of specific examples and not typing them out here which is what's creating the problem between us in this conversation.

I don't tolerate unjustified violence and use of force. I don't support the police because their indoctrination process is such that it caters with open arms to people who would abuse such power- and lets them off the hook 90% of the time (with a paid leave of absence during investigation). The issue I have is accountability and who is holding who accountable. The police have not held themselves accountable unless it's been blatant corruption.





Also, what is your experience with police shootings? Most occur during bank robbery standoffs and late night drug busts. I can't envisage any revlefters in the thick of that kind of activity

I've lived in some really bad areas that most of us in the United States have heard about.

Are you familiar with Cop Watch? The easiest way is to follow every police shooting that you hear about on the news and if you wish, do a little research into what groups are probing the investigation- what are the local issues- what do the people living in the neighborhood have to say about the shooting.

Very rarely will you see the real community reaction to fatal police shootings on the news.

The last five or six fatal shootings here in PDX have not been 'bank robberies" or "late night drug busts". They have been by trigger happy (for whatever reason) cops shooting to kill when other methods are 'more appropriate' to say the least. There are cover-ups that have been exposed etc...


Anarchists and other leftists are not the only people questioning the shootings and killings by police. I went to a community meeting at a church on the topic and the 'radical left' was few and far between in regards to attendance.







Anyway, I agree with Bud that most cops aren't psycopaths, just average Joes that we all went to high school with and who want to protect their communities from the Jeffrey Dahmers, Charles Whitmans, and John Wayne Gacy's of this world.


Yeah, they did a great job with them, didn't they :rolleyes:


The point could be argued that police training, hiring and general indoc is what causes police to kill without justified cause- that had they not shot- and been assaulted and lived- they could have lost their job. I don't believe this is the case most of the time, but it is a problem.





I suggest we make a seperate thread about police as this thread is about g20 toronto..

[Ele'ill]

I'm using that other thread 'organizing against police violence' to move most of the police discussion away from this thread so that anyone that wants to talk about g20 related events can do so without having to pick through a page of non specifically related topics.

[bcbm]

First of all the only thing I have to go by is your video so there's no why I could know what part of town anything is happening in. While I take your word that the sit down protest was somewhere else--it was part of the same demonstration.

not only was the rioting in a different part of the city, it occurred after the police had already begun to gas demonstrators.

[Robert]

Yeah, they did a great job with them, didn't they :rolleyes:

You would have supported more aggressive police work? Me too.

I knew we'd find common ground eventually.

The separate thread is fine, but I'm glad to drop this digression from the Toronto thread. You just see the police through a different prism than I do.

Are you happy, sad or indifferent that they caught Van der Schmuck in Chile?

[Ele'ill]

You would have supported more aggressive police work? Me too.

'More aggressive police work' isn't part of this conversation. Police accountability is. Community involvement and decision making within the 'police force' is necessary and is what's lacking right now.

Rephrasing what I'm asking for as 'more aggressive police work' is absurd as I've already stated why a broken and non community controlled force of governance doesn't work.



I knew we'd find common ground eventually.:rolleyes:


The separate thread is fine, but I'm glad to drop this digression from the Toronto thread. You just see the police through a different prism than I do.

Are you happy, sad or indifferent that they caught Van der Schmuck in Chile?I'm unaware of who this is that you're talking about. If this person was hurting people of a community I'm glad he was found and stopped. My position remains the same on police.


I think we should carry the conversation over to the police thread, or create one yourself.