Dutch Military Union comes out against the war

[Paul Cockshott]

Dutch servicemen's unions are deeply divided over their approach to the Dutch military mission in Afghanistan.

AFMP (Dutch military trade union) chairman Wim van den Burg said on Thursday that an extension of the Uruzgan mission after 2010 is not an option as far as the union is concerned. He said that Dutch troops should not "help an Afghan government which is making a mess of things. We are supporting the very dubious government of President Hamid Karzai, who is driving the islamic country back to the Middle Ages."
According to the union, the Kabul regime has flaunted the international rule of law by passing misogynistic legislation,
supporting controversial warlords and restricting the freedom of the press. Mr Van den Burg assured the military
personnel currently in Afghanistan of the union's unconditional support, but emphasised that a continuation of the mission after 2010 was out of the question.

Should unions stay out of politics?
The call for an end to the mission is in contravention of rules laid down by Euromil, an association of 32 military trade unions in Europe, including AFMP. "Democratic military associations do not interfere in matters of domestic or foreign policy, neither in defence strategy nor in operational decisions," Euromil says on its website.
Military trade unions The AFMP is one of the largest military trade unions and is a member of the Dutch Federation of Trade Unions, FNV. The other main unions for defence workers are ACOM and VMB/NOV. Like any other group of employees in the Netherlands, defence personnel have the right to form trade unions.
The other unions representing Dutch defence workers, ACOM and VMB/NOV, criticised their AFMP comrades for their "politicking".
ACOM chairman Jan Kleian says that relatives of servicemen killed on duty in Afghanistan are outraged about AFMP's campaign. "To the bereaved, such remarks sound as if their son died for no good reason."
Mr Kleian told Radio Netherlands Worldwide:
"We as servicemen's unions should not become involved in politics in this way. Dutch politicians decided to send the military to Afghanistan, and once there is a decision, then so be it. Moreover, we have an expeditional force, and even if we didn't go to Afghanistan, we would go to Africa and there we would encounter regimes of the same calibre. You can't avoid that.
The majority of our members say, we're not in Afghanistan for its politicians, we're there for the population. If we were there for the regime it would be different, but we are there to give the people a better life. "
But so far, Mr Kleian's plea for realism appears to have fallen on deaf ears with AFMP.

"An improper discussion"
ISAF and the Dutch ISAF, the International Security
Assistance Force, has some 50,000 personnel on the ground in Afghanistan. About 1900 of them are Dutch. Since the beginning of the mission, 21 Dutch servicemen have been killed.
Dutch Defence Minister Eimert van Middelkoop says the decision to station troops in Afghanistan received ample consideration and was a responsible one.
Referring to the AFMP chairman's plea to pull out of Afghanistan, Deputy Defence Minister Jack de Vries said,
"I think it is an incomphrehensible and untimely remark. Bear in mind that we'll be active there until August 2010. AFMP has agreed that the mission should run its course. We've got some time to go, with our men and women doing difficult work on the ground. When the chairman of a big military union now says it's actually a pointless mission, even referring to the number of casualties there, then they're not giving our people the homefront support they deserve, and need, to do their work."

Fairytale
But AFMP is not letting off, a defiant statement on their website shows. Reacting to Deputy Defence Minister Jack de Vries's anger as expressed in a Twitter message, the union says,
"Especially for Jack, we repeat our position in simple terms: AFMP/FNV is not in favour of continuing the fairytale that is called Afghanistan. As a union we are confronted with the fallout of the war on a daily basis, and we're acting on that. And that is exactly the opposite of what De Vries is falsely suggesting."

[Ocean Seal]

I'm very proud of this union for not abandoning its troops, but still condemning the failing war in Afghanistan.

[BIG BROTHER]

I'm gonna sound ignorant, but fuck I didn't even know that Military Unions existed. Its cool if they promote the welfare of their members by denying support to an Imperialist war :)

[AK]

I'm gonna sound ignorant, but fuck I didn't even know that Military Unions existed. Its cool if they promote the welfare of their members by denying support to an Imperialist war :)
I knew there were police unions, but military unions?

[Saorsa]

Am I the only one who's uncomfortable with a military union being allowed into the Federation of Trade Unions?

[AK]

Am I the only one who's uncomfortable with a military union being allowed into the Federation of Trade Unions?
Nope :crying:

[Crux]

I knew there were police unions, but military unions?
Yes, the irish military union had a pretty cool statement out maybe a year ago where they said they would refuse to be used in labor conflicts.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Am I the only one who's uncomfortable with a military union being allowed into the Federation of Trade Unions?
Rank-and-file soldiers in Ireland fought for years before they were given the right of organise in a union. Since then PDFORRA has been pro-active in fighting for decent wages and conditions for its members.

This Irish army has been used for three or four basic tasks during its existance-
1. Security for bank money transfers
2. UN missions abroad
3. Strike-breaking
4. Occasionally, security operations against paramilitaries.

As Mayakovsky said - reflecting the mood of the rank-and-file soldiers and the economic situation they faced, PDFORRA issued a statement last year telling the government not to expect them to follow orders to break strikes.

Interestingly, Socialist Party candidates, much to the surprise of the right-wing parties and to the shock of other lefts and republicans, tend to draw good votes from rank-and-file soldiers at election time. The is partly the result of the SP's support for the right of soldiers to organise in a trade union and partly as a result of the active support given by rank-and-file soldiers to the anti-water charges campaign led by the SP in the late 1990's and the anti-bin tax campaign of a few years ago.

EDIT - should also have mentioned that rank-and-file police have threatened an illegal strike against government austerity measures. I would be surprised if they carry through on this - but again it does reflect how economic circumstances are impacting on the state forces.

[Vendetta]

Should unions stay out of politics?

What kind of question is that? ;)

[Paul Cockshott]

What kind of question is that? ;)

That was not my question, I merely relayed the news report.

[The Douche]

Am I the only one who's uncomfortable with a military union being allowed into the Federation of Trade Unions?

Why would you not want soldiers to actually be able to engage their class interests? It puts them at odds with the bourgeois state and with their officers, and it highlights class struggle in the military/society at large.

[Saorsa]

I'm not against military unions per se - I'm just uncomfortable with them being put in the same category as the rest of the trade union movement. Here in New Zealand the Police Association has been kept out of the Council of Trade Unions, and that's not something I'd want to see changing. I don't think we have a soldier's union...

I'm keen to see this issue discussed in some detail.

[Palingenisis]

Am I the only one who's uncomfortable with a military union being allowed into the Federation of Trade Unions?

Im slightly less comfortable about Prison screws being allowed in...But no you are alone.

When will people get this into their heads that cops are one thing...You can have a decent cop...But professional soldiers are a totally different thing.

[Palingenisis]

Yes, the irish military union had a pretty cool statement out maybe a year ago where they said they would refuse to be used in labor conflicts.

The Free State Army in Ireland is much more intergrated into the community and has much less of a "militarary" ethos than in other countries. But they still are what they are.

[The Douche]

I'm not against military unions per se - I'm just uncomfortable with them being put in the same category as the rest of the trade union movement. Here in New Zealand the Police Association has been kept out of the Council of Trade Unions, and that's not something I'd want to see changing. I don't think we have a soldier's union...

I'm keen to see this issue discussed in some detail.

Police often play a different role than the military in society. Not to mention that police (at least in the US) tend to be career class traitors, whereas military personnel usually only serve for a few years.

My main issue is that you can stop being a police officer whenever you want. You can't just quit the army though, you're stuck there, so you can't get any resolution when you have a problem.

I think that only positive things can come from unionizing the military, and from creating a relationship between organized soldiers and organized workers. I wish it wasn't illegal to attempt to unionize in the military in the US, I have had more issues than you could ever fathom, which a union could've solved.

[Die Neue Zeit]

When will people get this into their heads that cops are one thing...You can have a decent cop...But professional soldiers are a totally different thing.

Cmoney is arguing the opposite line you're arguing.

I'm with him for an uncomfortable reason: cops don't perform productive labour, yet professional soldiers can as part of the imperialist military-industrial complexes.

Besides, it's usually the soldiers who stop supporting tottering governments before the cops.


I'm not against military unions per se - I'm just uncomfortable with them being put in the same category as the rest of the trade union movement. Here in New Zealand the Police Association has been kept out of the Council of Trade Unions, and that's not something I'd want to see changing.

You've got no opposition whatsoever from me.

[The Douche]

Honestly my support for the military but diehard opposition to the police doesn't really have a political foundation, its just based on my life experience. I am a soldier, I am a revolutionary, I have met plenty of anti-war current and former soldiers, and revolutionary current and former soldiers. I have also met lots of cops, some I spend time with on a regular basis (there are some in my unit) and all of them have insane politics. The number of people who turn away from the police force is so slim, and the number who leave the police and take on radical politics is virtually non-existant.

Also the police just have a lot more discretion in what laws they enforce and how they enforce them, the same is not true for soldiers.

[Saorsa]

The army tends to split in a revolutionary situation - the police don't.

The police are enemies through and through, but some soldiers can be won over.

[Palingenisis]

Cmoney is arguing the opposite line you're arguing.

I'm with him for an uncomfortable reason: cops don't perform productive labour, yet professional soldiers can as part of the imperialist military-industrial complexes.

Besides, it's usually the soldiers who stop supporting tottering governments before the cops.

Cops provide a very necessary service though even if they arent always the most thoughtful in the way they do and while its easy to be "anti-pig" if you are young and male (and from a "safe" area) if you are female, have kids yourself or are elderly you really do appreciate them around most of the time. Professional soldiers are just there to kill, dominate and terrorize. However not all cops are the same...The CRS or the RUC are qualitively different being highly political forces.

Also Im not sure if what you say in the last sentence is correct. I remember in reading about the German revolution where even a Police chief was a member of the USPD and his whole force sided with the revolution. On the other hand the Freikorps was formed out of a hardcore of professional soldiers. Profressional soldiers are very different conscripts.

[Palingenisis]

The army tends to split in a revolutionary situation - the police don't.

The police are enemies through and through, but some soldiers can be won over.

Recently the police pushed scum who were openly selling cannibis in a place very near a school with kids passing there everyday near me off the street. I dont think thats being an enemy through and through. I have also seen the emotional and physical damage that Imperialist professional soldiers leave....Conscript armies are different. They tend to split.

Think about General Pinochet and his troops. Think about the Friekorps.

[AK]

Cops provide a very necessary service though even if they arent always the most thoughtful in the way they do and while its easy to be "anti-pig" if you are young and male (and from a "safe" area) if you are female, have kids yourself or are elderly you really do appreciate them around most of the time.
True. Unfortunately, cops are quite a necessity under the capitalist system, to deal with all the murders, rapes, thefts, muggings, etc. that arise from economic inequality and the sexism, racism and nationalistic hate and pride spurted out by the media and government. However, police under capitalism also serve to maintain the status quo - that is, by quashing strikes, riots, rebellions and revolutions with extreme force. As an anarchist, the answer to the question of the police in a revolutionary situation is one of two things: put your weapons down and surrender or prepare to get disowned.

I remember in reading about the German revolution where even a Police chief was a member of the USPD and his whole force sided with the revolution.
Or there could apparently be a third option for the police, too...
But with the rapidly growing gap between the police and the rest of the working class, this may never be repeated again.

[Palingenisis]

True. Unfortunately, cops are quite a necessity under the capitalist system, to deal with all the murders, rapes, thefts, muggings, etc. that arise from economic inequality and the sexism, racism and nationalistic hate and pride spurted out by the media and government. However, police under capitalism also serve to maintain the status quo - that is, by quashing strikes, riots, rebellions and revolutions with extreme force. As an anarchist, the answer to the question of the police in a revolutionary situation is one of two things: put your weapons down and surrender or prepare to get disowned.

Or there could apparently be a third option for the police, too...
But with the rapidly growing gap between the police and the rest of the working class, this may never be repeated again.

I dont disagree with this and I have nothing but hatred for the Special Branch here (basically the political police who are more than happy to kick people shittless and spend a lot of time haressing anyone deemed a threat to the state). The first role of any police force or army is to defend and enforce the existence and will of the state...The thing is that the police also mainly provide another necessary service while the army just exists to do that. I also dont agree that all rape, muggings, drug dealing, etc will magically disappear after the revolution.

[The Douche]

if you are female, have kids yourself or are elderly you really do appreciate them around most of the time.

This is an assumption which I have never found to me true. The only people who like the police in my experience, are reactionary, middle aged or older, white men.

The police rarely do anything to prevent crime, they exist to protect private property, and on occasion will investigate crime. The cops have never done anything positive for me or anyone I know. The police exist daily to spread psychological terror and violence, I don't know anybody in the world, who upon seeing a cop in the rear-view mirror of their car exclaims "oh thank god, the cops are behind me".

[Die Neue Zeit]

I remember in reading about the German revolution where even a Police chief was a member of the USPD and his whole force sided with the revolution. On the other hand the Freikorps was formed out of a hardcore of professional soldiers. Profressional soldiers are very different conscripts.


I have also seen the emotional and physical damage that Imperialist professional soldiers leave....Conscript armies are different. They tend to split.

Think about General Pinochet and his troops. Think about the Friekorps.

Maybe I jumped the gun a bit, but there are others distinctions among professional soldiers. Not all of them are paramilitary units as you've implied.

I agree with you that paramilitaries are among the worst of the bunch. They don't defect or split, and they're more skilled than even riot police.