One trillion dollars

[RED DAVE]

Any time now.

http://costofwar.com/

Don't you feel great that in the midst of the worst economic crisis in 80 years, we can spend $1,000,000,000,000 killing people in other countries?

RED DAVE

[GreenCommunism]

i know,cruelly speaking i mean was it a worthwhile investments? did we get 1 trillion dollar of exploitation in return? i doubt it. i feel like a few businessman in the defense industry and pipelines got some profits but the western middle class and the third world paid a high price, as always.

[AK]

Oh cool. Capitalism at it's most efficient.

[RED DAVE]

At about 10:06 AM EDT, the total amount of money that the US has spent in Iraq and Afghanistan reached $1,000,000,000,000.

RED DAVE

[AK]

i know,cruelly speaking i mean was it a worthwhile investments? did we get 1 trillion dollar of exploitation in return? i doubt it. i feel like a few businessman in the defense industry and pipelines got some profits but the western middle class and the third world paid a high price, as always.
Please explain to me your concept of the "middle class". If it's anything other than a bureaucracy or the petit-bourgeoisie then, well, you're a fool. The vast majority of the first world is working class - and it is they who pay alot of the price (not just the petit-bourgeoisie and the peasantry).

[GreenCommunism]

yeah i know everyone here is pissed when we talk of the middle class. theres no middle class only poor and rich, i do believe that. when i mean middle class i mean people who have accumulated some money from their parent's life of work as heritage and who do not entirely depend on welfare to survive. i am not sure how the term is used, but i do agree that between the working class and the middle class there is only a marginal difference in wealth. what are those under the poverty line if they are not working class?

[AK]

yeah i know everyone here is pissed when we talk of the middle class. theres no middle class only poor and rich, i do believe that. when i mean middle class i mean people who have accumulated some money from their parent's life of work as heritage and who do not entirely depend on welfare to survive. i am not sure how the term is used, but i do agree that between the working class and the middle class there is only a marginal difference in wealth. what are those under the poverty line if they are not working class?
You bring a good point, but... only rich and poor? That's simplifying it a little. What is your definition of the working class?
Class is not determined by income; although relative income parity between individuals of the same class is certainly a probable result of class.

[Jimmie Higgins]

i know,cruelly speaking i mean was it a worthwhile investments? did we get 1 trillion dollar of exploitation in return? i doubt it. i feel like a few businessman in the defense industry and pipelines got some profits but the western middle class and the third world paid a high price, as always.

Very true, in fact US workers are worse off not only because of the money spent for imperialism, (which now is made up from cuts to social spending) but because our ruling class gets stronger when it is able to push it's power abroad. This is what a lot of vets (black vets initially) realized during Vietnam - why help the US get stronger because then you have to come home and face a stronger racist government.

Radicals have observed for a long time that war abroad in capitalism goes hand in hand with a war on us at home. During WWI it was attacks on radicals and pacifists and a red-scare after the war. In WWII it was internment and no-strike pledges (backed by the CP and trade unions unfortunately) and then McCarthyism and increased oppression of minorities and homosexuals. After 9/11 it was restrictions on rights, scapegoating of Arabs and Muslims, anti-immigrant xenophobia, and now debts that the US wants to pay-off on the backs of US workers (since they obviously are not going to start taxing the rich to pay for the war - unless they have no other option).

[AK]

Very true, in fact US workers are worse off not only because of the money spent for imperialism, (which now is made up from cuts to social spending) but because our ruling class gets stronger when it is able to push it's power abroad. This is what a lot of vets (black vets initially) realized during Vietnam - why help the US get stronger because then you have to come home and face a stronger racist government.
Libcom has a good article on GI resistance in Vietnam.
http://libcom.org/history/vietnam-gi-resistance


Radicals have observed for a long time that war abroad in capitalism goes hand in hand with a war on us at home. During WWI it was attacks on radicals and pacifists and a red-scare after the war. In WWII it was internment and no-strike pledges (backed by the CP and trade unions unfortunately) and then McCarthyism and increased oppression of minorities and homosexuals. After 9/11 it was restrictions on rights, scapegoating of Arabs and Muslims, anti-immigrant xenophobia, and now debts that the US wants to pay-off on the backs of US workers (since they obviously are not going to start taxing the rich to pay for the war - unless they have no other option).
This. This can be seen today with not only Arabs and muslims - but also with drug users and drug lords (I'm against the prick drug lords, but still, the tactics are noticable) which the bourgeois states - particularly in the americas - are waging wars on (another libcom article on the matter: http://libcom.org/history/articles/war-on-drugs).

[GreenCommunism]

There is also the small matter of one million plus Iraqis dead. That seems to be also of some important here.

but what about 9/11!! 3000 WHITE people died (or culturally white anyway). is a million+ arabs really enough?

i am always impressed at how we consider our lives to be worth more than other poorer people of the planet. i mean the nazis executed 50 slavs for 1 german wounded and 100 slavs for 1 german killed, and this is in time of war. conclusion, usa think the white race is even more superior to others than the nazis did.


This. This can be seen today with not only Arabs and muslims - but also with drug users and drug lords (I'm against the prick drug lords, but still, the tactics are noticable) which the bourgeois states - particularly in the americas - are waging wars on

i personally feel that users and small time dealers get to pay the biggest price for any operations. those small time dealers know that they will be killed in prison if they rat out or so. large dealers can also buy cops to find out about the witnesses. the small dealers sometime do not even buy the product from large dealers and resell it, they merely sell it and get a part of the profits. so they can be caught with drugs that isn't really their property.

[GreenCommunism]

Class is not determined by income; although relative income parity between individuals of the same class is certainly a probably result.

how are class determined though? this is not in line with the topic, but i wonder. i used the idea that some are below the poverty line and some aren't. is it because people in that class have similar interests?

[AK]

how are class determined though? this is not in line with the topic, but i wonder. i used the idea that some are below the poverty line and some aren't. is it because people in that class have similar interests?
Marxist class analysis holds that class is determined by a relation to the means of production (or social production, or something similar. I forget.):

The bourgeoisie own means of production, yet do not perform productive labour on it themselves - rather, they hire workers to do so for them.
The petit-bourgeoisie own means of production and they may hire workers to work on their means of production in addition to their own labour.
The working class must sell it's labour power to the bourgeoisie or petit-bourgeoisie in return for a wage - hence the term "wage labour".
Then there's the peasantry, which I can't really explain.

Many anarchists also uphold this class theory, but others don't.

[Dr Strangelove]

Does anyone know if there is a similar website for the United Kingdom or other countries involved in current wars?

[Q]

Does anyone know if there is a similar website for the United Kingdom or other countries involved in current wars?

Or any other country for that matter.

Given that the US still spends more on the military than all other countries combined, that is undoubtedly a fraction of the US 1 trillion.

[GreenCommunism]

Does anyone know if there is a similar website for the United Kingdom or other countries involved in current wars?

this is actually a very good idea, i personally wonder how much canada has spent so far since they sound like the strongest ally in the war on terror. pardon me if i am wrong though.

also when is the united states supposed to withdraw? i just saw that canada will go out in 2011. surprisingly a conservative government took this decision.