Salaries and pension/retirement law in Greece

[Das war einmal]

The commotion in The Netherlands about Greece is also about the payments and pensions the civil servants in Greece were getting. Whilst in The Netherlands their is a lot of unrest about the proposition to raise the retirement age from 65 to 67, civil servants in Greece could retire at the age of 53.

Asking for solidarity for the people in Greece seems out of the question, seeing as it is hard to defend why 'we' should pay for 'their' outrageously low retirement age if you compare them to 'ours'.

Before giving me the public shitstorm, let me point out that, according to myself, people in Greece should decide themselves when they retire from work. But its hard to defend and understand why there is going a few billions towards Greece from the Netherlands and the rest of Europe, while there is crisis here aswel.

Notice that I'm taking a revisionist role at the moment. I think its a bit strange that civil servants have had these relaxed salaries and pensions compared to our civil servants or workers. Its no wonder that their economy was going bankrupt.
I believe that neither the people of Holland nor the people of Greece are really waiting for this so called 'rescue operation'.

Whats your view on this? Were the salaries and pensions of Greece workers/ civil servants absurd? Do you think Greece and Europe are better of if Greece should be kicked out of the Euro? Is it fair (or better said: logical) to demand solidarity for the people of Greece?

My point of reason is this: I fear the Greek revolutionaries (wheter they are anarchists or communist) are really on their own. Their is support from our side of course, but we're really to small to call for solidarity.

[RED DAVE]

It's a myth about retirement. Greece is in line with other European nations.

Here's the skinny:

European Retirement Ages

Country - Early - Normal

Austria - 60 - 65
Belgium - 60 - 65
Denmark - NONE - 65
France - 57 - 60
Germany - 63 - 65
Greece - 57 - 65
Italy - 57 - 65
Netherlands - 60 - 65
Spain - 60 - 65
Sweden - 61 - 65
Switzerland - 63 - 65
UK - NONE - 65
USA - 62 - 66

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement

RED DAVE

[eyedrop]

While I'm not saying that it isn't a retirement myth Red Dave, the claims about Greece's early retirement concern government employed ones while your chart is about general retirement ages.

[FSL]

I think its a bit strange that civil servants have had these relaxed salaries and pensions compared to our civil servants or workers.

It's not strange at all. You see, strikes here aren't an unknown word. If something's wrong is that salaries aren't bigger and that pensions aren't given earlier.

Now, if you think that the cheap money you're providing the capitalists and our state with is in any way an example of "workers' solidarity" you're mistaken. It's a show of solidarity from the european governments to the banks that hold greek bonds.
In all honesty, I wouldn't have any problem seeing these banks crash and burn while Merkel or Sarkozy run around in panick trying to figure out which one they'll bail out first. However, they don't share my opinion.

So, all in all, our aim is to make our "absurd" benefits "absurder". I'm really glad not even this government had the guts to speak of retirement at 67, not even the IMF. It means they know we are here. If that ruins your day, how about asking for an earlier retirement yourselves?
Otherwise, if you really do want "fiscal consolidation" and "social harmony" and all that crap, work until you're 80 by all means.

[Bonobo1917]

I fear the Greek revolutionaries (wheter they are anarchists or communist) are really on their own. Their is support from our side of course, but we're really to small to call for solidarity.

Greek revolutionaries are not on their own. There has been solidarity action in the Netherlands. See http://www.indymedia.nl/nl/2010/05/67619.shtml . Hopefully, there will be more and bigger action. I agree that one job for people helping to build solidarity wil be: fighting against the myths and lies about 'well-paid' and 'lazy' workers in Greece.

[Das war einmal]

Greek revolutionaries are not on their own. There has been solidarity action in the Netherlands. See http://www.indymedia.nl/nl/2010/05/67619.shtml . Hopefully, there will be more and bigger action. I agree that one job for people helping to build solidarity wil be: fighting against the myths and lies about 'well-paid' and 'lazy' workers in Greece.

Yes there are solidarity actions, but there's only support from the communists and anarchists (maybe a few SP socialists) outside Greece and here in Holland these people are just too few to make any point. It's better than doing nothing, but we simply have not the power to make any difference at the moment.

[Honggweilo]

Notice that I'm taking a revisionist role at the moment. I think its a bit strange that civil servants have had these relaxed salaries and pensions compared to our civil servants or workers. Its no wonder that their economy was going bankrupt.

This is really copying mainstream newsreports without looking into the real causes of the crisis. I can understand you want to play devils advocate to get some information, but our newspaper has a biweekly collum about the greek situation from a KKE member stationed in the Netherlands, Anna Ioannatiou. I suggest you read Manifest more and cut back a bit on the bourgeois sources. Also, claiming that we should "not relax our salaries and public spending" during crisis is plain neo-liberal, even within a capitalist framework. Isnt the goal here stoping the destruction of social laws, which were fought for by years of class struggle? Its taking a stand and drawing a line. If the dutch are jealous about the greek standard of living (which is alot worse then ours may i add), then maybe they should take a stand themselves, seeing that this system is causing economic catastrophy and putting the weight on our shoulders. Its our duty to help and provide an alternative, instead of budging to yet another bail-out plan for the elite with major austerity measures attached to it. I believe, looking at the recent developements in the unions and the political landscape here, there will be a increasing room for the same consienceness as in southern europe. But as always with the nuancaded sceptic uncollective additude that plagued this country since the dawn of time, we will probably be the last in Europe.

http://www.ncpn.nl/manifest/2010/04/griek04.htm

also get the statistics straight, there is alot of twisted facts and disinformation about public spending in Greece, also on the cause of the public deficit, which had little to do with public spending and more with fraudulent investments and the tremendous reduction of purchase power



average working week 42,0 hours (EU: 40,3). average pension age: 61,4 (EU: 61,1). average pension: 750 euro (Spain: 950). monthly salary in private sector: 803 euro (Netherlands: 1.400). Portion of public workers in labour force: 22,3 procent (Netherlands: 27%).