Guerrilla warfare v organised workforce.

[Universal Struggle]

Many communists seem to have watched CHE, and gone, wow guns, explosions.

In order to overthrow the state, we should concentrate on organising the workers, on the railways, in the docks, the garbage removers, supermarket employes, cabin crew.

All men and women will have a part to play.

"Power comes from the barrell of a gun"

No.

Power comes from an organised workforce who strike, take over factories and cease the means of production.

In industrialised nations, the masses of Urban workers are the best and in my view, only way to overthrow the ruling class.

Workers must lead the revolution with the support of a militant communist group, Armed guerrillas fighting a protracted war is no where near as powerfull as the Urban proletariat, who can be armed by the vanguard.

Economic sabotage and strikes can cripple a ruling class better than any bomb can.

When after years of dedication and struggle, the masses have a raised class conciousness, the final upheavals can violently bring down the system.

The workers are the only ones who are capable of defeating capitalism in its strongholds, not protracted war, which isolates the workers from the cause and breeds elitism.




Do you agree, or do your thoughts differ?

[Robocommie]

So basically, Maoists line up over there, Anarchists and Leftcoms over there, and then Marxist-Leninists and Trotskyists, you just kinda pick one side or the other as your conscience dictates. Then we'll duke it out.

[Psy]

Guerrilla fighters are useful in tying up forces when you have revolutionary armies and guerrilla forces can grow into revolutionary armies like Italian guerrilla forces that expanded into revolutionary armies powerful enough to to take Mussolini in custody and crushed the Nazi forces Italy that were sent in to annex Italy in reaction to the success of revolutionary armies in Italy.

That said I agree power comes from an organized workforce who strike and take over means of production.

[Ocean Seal]

The only problem with the organized workforce idea is that the proletariat will be suffering the entire time. Every time they strike they risk losing their jobs. If they have kids and their spouse has already lost his/her job then they will be vulnerable to the system: which can simply tell them well you can come back, but this time at docked pay. They might not even hesitate to this opportunity because when you realize that one of your children might starve then you're willing to do just about anything.

So yes, the revolution must come from the working class, but an armed guerrilla which behaves decently (minimum working class civilian casualties) can help.

Don't get me wrong I believe that the workers will bring the revolution both the agricultural and the urban.

[bricolage]

http://libcom.org/library/you-cant-blow-up-social-relationship

[Robocommie]

The issue of guerillas and the people's war is a more pressing issue in situations of national liberation, and of anti-colonial struggle. It is a form of revolution that is far more relevant to less industrialized nations which lack a strong base of urban workers. The conditions you describe are far from universal, and in particular, they are, speaking very generally, only the case in North America and Europe.

Incidentally, if you watched Che, and only took away that it was about guns and explosions, I think you missed out on a lot.

[Universal Struggle]

well my point was, alot of europeans think they can have a protracted peoples war, or urban guerrilla outfits, both will fail miserably in the first world.

I think alot of teenagers from the west like the counter culture, not so much the reality politiks, ie organising, striking, factory takeovers.

People have this notion of revolution being a glorious and exciting thing, it is not, it spells danger, death and misery for the proletariat until victory or death.

I agree with guerrilla armies in places like colombia, where protracted war is a good tactic, but in rich nations, imperialist nations, it cannot work, the military is far too strong.

[Robocommie]

well my point was, alot of europeans think they can have a protracted peoples war, or urban guerrilla outfits, both will fail miserably in the first world.

I'm not sure what the Maoist attitude is on revolution in the wealthier, developed nations, but generally yes, I would agree that at least at this stage of history, armed insurrection is doomed to fail. The state repressive mechanisms (police, army, hegemony) are too strong. That may change in time. Capitalism itself may undermine the police and army, and it is the responsibility of revolutionary leftists to undermine the hegemony of the state.



I think alot of teenagers from the west like the counter culture, not so much the reality politiks, ie organising, striking, factory takeovers.

Sure, but that's just teenagers. It's the people in the trenches, getting screwed by the bosses that are important for class struggle.



People have this notion of revolution being a glorious and exciting thing, it is not, it spells danger, death and misery for the proletariat until victory or death.

I don't think people have as many illusions about revolution as you think.



I agree with guerrilla armies in places like colombia, where protracted war is a good tactic, but in rich nations, imperialist nations, it cannot work, the military is far too strong.

Well, it's worth pointing out that in revolutionary situations, sometimes elements within the military itself can be revolutionary. Large segments of the Russian Imperial Army, for example, were won over to the Bolsheviks. However, I don't think that's likely to happen in the US. Certainly not at this stage of history.

[Universal Struggle]

How would you recomend we go about robocomie, i think that we should do things like organise prisons, start some more militant unions, also, i think nations should hve only 1 communist party, not so many offshoots, where everyone votes on the actions the vanguard take, though, it is easier said than done.

[Saorsa]

This isn't an either/or situation.

[The Douche]

A diversity of tactics is an absolute necessity in our struggle. We should not confine ourself to just one form of struggle, that would be foolish.

For instance, I oppose the theory of using unions as a revolutionary vehicle, but I am in an organization which promotes revolutionary industrial unionism. The more ideas, and the more fronts we are working on, the more likely we are to find the solution.

[Ocean Seal]

A diversity of tactics is an absolute necessity in our struggle. We should not confine ourself to just one form of struggle, that would be foolish.

For instance, I oppose the theory of using unions as a revolutionary vehicle, but I am in an organization which promotes revolutionary industrial unionism. The more ideas, and the more fronts we are working on, the more likely we are to find the solution.

Exactly, it is harder to win a war against multiple fronts. We must support one another united.

[RED DAVE]

No one has ever organized guerilla war in an advanced industrial nation. (Italy during WWII was still a nonindustrial country; and, moreover, it was in the midst of the world war and was occupied by the Germans, with the allies helping the guerrillas).

The outcome of anti-imperialist movements in 3rd world countries is, in my opinion, iffy with regard to socialism. These struggles, in the absence of revolution in the first world, will likely lead to state capitalism, with the victorious guerrillas ending up as the state capitalist ruling class and the progression to private capitalism just a matter of time. This is what happened in Russia, China and Vietnam.

Urban revolution in the first world is the key to world revolution.

RED DAVE

[The Douche]

No one has ever organized guerilla war in an advanced industrial nation. (Italy during WWII was still a nonindustrial country; and, moreover, it was in the midst of the world war and was occupied by the Germans, with the allies helping the guerrillas).

The outcome of anti-imperialist movements in 3rd world countries is, in my opinion, iffy with regard to socialism. These struggles, in the absence of revolution in the first world, will likely lead to state capitalism, with the victorious guerrillas ending up as the state capitalist ruling class and the progression to private capitalism just a matter of time. This is what happened in Russia, China and Vietnam.

Urban revolution in the first world is the key to world revolution.

RED DAVE

You've been a communist long enough to probably know that this is coming.

But that is a chauvinist point of view.

[Gecko]

jesus keeerist!!.. grow up already with that playing CHE action game..
too many immature,petit bourgeoise people visiting in la la ideological disneyland who think revolution is some kind of entertaining amusement park where they play in order to temporarily alleviate themselves of boredom ..
revolution is not a game..it is extremely risky,dangerous and full of sacrifice,pain,persecution,torture,torment and suffering..something 99% of these so called revolutionaries would in a panic run from to go back to the comfort and security of mama and papa petit bourgeoise.
revolution is not a movie that you get thrilled at watching and then when it's over go out and drive your car shopping or go to some restaurant or club..
that is a major part of the reason why the left has such a absurdly pathetic presence in this country.the working class does not take the left seriously,the left has no deep entrenched roots in the working class and most so called revolutionaries are bored petit bourgeoise people slumming ideologically with revolutionary Marxism..
a communist revolution in this country is not impossible but given the pathetic forces of the left it looks extremely improbable..
still wanna play CHE?? :che:

[Universal Struggle]

did you read what i wrote?

wtf are you talking about.

[Robocommie]

jesus keeerist!!.. grow up already with that playing CHE action game..
too many immature,petit bourgeoise people visiting in la la ideological disneyland who think revolution is some kind of entertaining amusement park where they play in order to temporarily alleviate themselves of boredom ..
revolution is not a game..it is extremely risky,dangerous and full of sacrifice,pain,persecution,torture,torment and suffering..something 99% of these so called revolutionaries would in a panic run from to go back to the comfort and security of mama and papa petit bourgeoise.
revolution is not a movie that you get thrilled at watching and then when it's over go out and drive your car shopping or go to some restaurant or club..
that is a major part of the reason why the left has such a absurdly pathetic presence in this country.the working class does not take the left seriously,the left has no deep entrenched roots in the working class and most so called revolutionaries are bored petit bourgeoise people slumming ideologically with revolutionary Marxism..
a communist revolution in this country is not impossible but given the pathetic forces of the left it looks extremely improbable..
still wanna play CHE?? :che:

What the fuck are you on about?

[Delenda Carthago]

arent you tired of talkin on things that are so far away from you?Instead of talking what you would if you could,try get into things of your everyday life.

Lets say,the other day a litle girl got killed in detroit and the Left was not there to organise a demostration against police brutality.When you dont have the basics,its silly to talk on subjects like guerilla warfare.

[Robocommie]

How would you recomend we go about robocomie, i think that we should do things like organise prisons, start some more militant unions, also, i think nations should hve only 1 communist party, not so many offshoots, where everyone votes on the actions the vanguard take, though, it is easier said than done.

I don't think we really need 1 leftist party per country. National borders rarely reflect the lines of revolutionary struggle anyhow. However, multiple parties can work together on issues of mutual concern, and form broader coalitions. Even if they don't however, they can still serve to promote the national struggle by serving as local focal points of agitation, to address local issues and local struggles. It's the imminently crucial issues of day-to-day life that most people care about, far more than theoretical concerns. The maxim should be, "Think globally, act locally."

Honestly, I think one of the best models are the Black Panthers. They were militant, they were armed for self defense, but they also engaged in survival programs, feeding kids, organizing clinics, organizing clothing drives, things like that.

[Universal Struggle]

Thats my point, instead of talking about guerrilla warfare, we should do on the ground militant activity, like what you suggest.

Maybe read te title:)

and yeah robocomie, i 100 percent agree, but there are no parties like that nowadays.

[Robocommie]

and yeah robocomie, i 100 percent agree, but there are no parties like that nowadays.

Take a look around, see what's going on in your area. If there isn't anything going on, then either find a group you think you can work with and propose those ideas, and failing that, try to start something yourself.

[Ocean Seal]

Honestly, I think one of the best models are the Black Panthers. They were militant, they were armed for self defense, but they also engaged in survival programs, feeding kids, organizing clinics, organizing clothing drives, things like that.

Yes, the reasons that the establishment was so afraid of the Panthers was because of their grassroots work. They were supported by all parts of their communities.

[AK]

A diversity of tactics is an absolute necessity in our struggle. We should not confine ourself to just one form of struggle, that would be foolish.

For instance, I oppose the theory of using unions as a revolutionary vehicle, but I am in an organization which promotes revolutionary industrial unionism. The more ideas, and the more fronts we are working on, the more likely we are to find the solution.
This. Someone said not long ago in another thread that we shouldn't shoot ourselves in the foot by using just one strategy.

My memory's so shitty, that it might've been you. But then again, my memory is shitty.

[Proletarian Ultra]

There is a lot more to Mao Zedong Thought than Protracted People's War.

[pranabjyoti]

THE HEADING IS MISLEADING. Guerrilla warfare and organized workers struggle aren't opponents, but comrades in the struggle. Depending on the situation, someone have to take the leading role. THE BEST WAY IS BOTH OPERATING SIDE BY SIDE IN FULL F LEDGE.

[AK]

There is a lot more to Mao Zedong Thought than Protracted People's War.
No-one was claiming that Protracted People's War is all there is to Maoist thought. This is a discussion on revolutionary strategy.