Were runaway slaves lifestylists?

[griffjam]

?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Lifestylism is usually meant perjoratively by leftists. If escaped slaves were just "lifestylists" what else should they have been?

Sorry, but this question is absurd.Its meant to provoke Marxists and "non-lifestylist" ananarchists.

[Spawn of Stalin]

No they were humans.

[Jimmie Higgins]

If they thought that the act of their own personal running away was Liberating ALL slaves, then yes. Since no sane slave ever thought that, the answer is no.

Being opposed to lifestyle solutions does not mean that we oppose people doing what it takes to free themselves. If someone was broke and homeless and had the chance to live and work on a commune, then that act of self-preservation is not inherently "lifestylist". When people who do work and have places to live CHOOSE to move off to a commune rather than confront their oppressors, and also think that their choice is the answer for the liberation for everyone, then that is lifestyleism.

[griffjam]

If they thought that the act of their own personal running away was Liberating ALL slaves, then yes. Since no sane slave ever thought that, the answer is no.

Being opposed to lifestyle solutions does not mean that we oppose people doing what it takes to free themselves. If someone was broke and homeless and had the chance to live and work on a commune, then that act of self-preservation is not inherently "lifestylist". When people who do work and have places to live CHOOSE to move off to a commune rather than confront their oppressors, and also think that their choice is the answer for the liberation for everyone, then that is lifestyleism.

Then why are people who "drop out" to spend more time working on revolutionary projects and less time interacting with capitalism stilled called lifestylists?

[Franz Fanonipants]

lol whu?

Are you suggesting that escaping from slavery makes you less an opponent of slavery?

Fredrick Douglass and Harriet Tubman disagree.

Of course, the thing is, I guess if you become an illicit freedman and then go...I don't know, try to boss around other black folks you might be a little suspect. But it's really an issue of individuals.

[Jimmie Higgins]

lol whu?

Are you suggesting that escaping from slavery makes you less an opponent of slavery?

Fredrick Douglass and Harriet Tubman disagree. You never run across any History books while dumpster diving? :lol: - sorry comrade, low one, my bad.

Now, do you know of Douglas or Tubman because they escaped from slavery? Was their prime act of liberation their own escape? No, both were heavily involved with ORGANIZING against the system of slavery.

People had been escaping from slavery as long as there has been slavery - people have been escaping and buying their loved ones (although this too took networks of black and white abolitionists to accomplish, once slavery was firmly established anyway). People had been running off to the frontier and joining native groups like the Seminoles and the Maroon communities in Brazil and other parts of the Americas.

Did any of this end slavery by itself - hundreds of years of people running away and centuries of runaway communities in remote areas? NO!

What things did help end slavery?

1. Revolt and Revolution. Haiti defeated slavery by organizing various sub-categories of people - maroon communities, slaves, free creoles. They organized and took on the whole slave and colonial system and this not only led them to victory but also sent shock-waves throughout the slaveocracies of the Americas.

2. Organized resistance and the abolition movement. Lincoln resisted making the civil war about slavery (although the slaves themselves and all the abolitionists knew it was ultimately about slavery). The years of organizing by people like Douglas, the insurrections (notably of John Brown and Nat Turner), and the abolitionist movement created, by the end of the war, a dominant abolitionist sentiment.

----

People had been escaping and living outside the slave system (for what - 300?) years but there was no liberation. Yet people think that living outside the capitalist system is a challenge to that? If we follow this advice we are condemning ourselves - well at least workers like me - to centuries of the continuation of this system.

On last point. It's is insulting to compare chattel slavery to wage slavery in bourgeois democracies. The idea that someone who doesn't like corporations and they have the means to live outside that compares themselves to someone who was kidnapped, mentally and physically abused, and threatened with death for trying to run... it's just ignorant and an insult.

Fortunately unlike slaves, we do have a tiny bit of free-time to organize politically, we do have some rights to organize on the job, we can strike, we can read and write so we can educate ourselves and communicate with others about how and why the system needs to be taken down. We don't have much, but a slave would have been killed on the spot if he attempted any of the above tools for collective liberation.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

As I understand the term "lifestylism" was coined, or at least popularized by the anarchist Murray Bookchin, a term he used for politics based around a subculture rather than what he saw as more meaningful collective action. I take "lifestylism" to mean regarding things like having a Che tatoo, listening to political bands, dumpster diving, Fair Trade Coffee, "socially responsible investing", etc, as revolutionary. They're not, although there's nothing wrong with them (accept for SRI, which creates dangerous illusions). Some good can even come out of these activities, but they won't contribute greatly to smashing capitalism.(For 3 years I lived almost across the street from a ruling class university. Every spring I'd do a lot of dumpster diving. I got 2 PCs, books on philosophy, shoes and boots, musical instruments, all good condition)

Dropping out, however that's defined, and dedicating oneself to activism, isn't "lifestylism". It seems to imply being a dedicated revolutionary activist. The important thing is not to focus on individual solutions ,orient to the working class, and focus on raising class consciousness. We're all wage slaves, its impossible to completely avoid capitalism, unless you live in commune which has achieved total autarky. Usually these kinds of places are very stifling.

A slave running away could be regarded as revolutionary. However its regarded, its being a human.

[brigadista]

what a facile thread

[Ocean Seal]

No, they were people who simply didn't want to be slaves and who can blame them.

[Dimentio]

No. Lifestylism is like a privilegied western adolescent who goes out living in an anarchist collective or a tent - not due to any other needs than to "find oneself".

[scarletghoul]

As I understand the term "lifestylism" was coined, or at least popularized by the anarchist Murray Bookchin, a term he used for politics based around a subculture rather than what he saw as more meaningful collective action. I take "lifestylism" to mean regarding things like having a Che tatoo, listening to political bands, dumpster diving, Fair Trade Coffee, "socially responsible investing", etc, as revolutionary. They're not, although there's nothing wrong with them (accept for SRI, which creates dangerous illusions). Some good can even come out of these activities, but they won't contribute greatly to smashing capitalism.(For 3 years I lived almost across the street from a ruling class university. Every spring I'd do a lot of dumpster diving. I got 2 PCs, books on philosophy, shoes and boots, musical instruments, all good condition)

Dropping out, however that's defined, and dedicating oneself to activism, isn't "lifestylism". It seems to imply being a dedicated revolutionary activist. The important thing is not to focus on individual solutions ,orient to the working class, and focus on raising class consciousness. We're all wage slaves, its impossible to completely avoid capitalism, unless you live in commune which has achieved total autarky. Usually these kinds of places are very stifling.

A slave running away could be regarded as revolutionary. However its regarded, its being a human.
I agree with this completely.

Changes to one's way of life are always good if they benefit you and the revolutionary effort in a practical way (ie, reducing work hours so as to spend more time on politics, maybe 'dumpster diving' can get good things for free though I have no experience of that). A slave freeing himself would fit into this, every selfliberated slave is a contribution to the total liberation, it adds to the forces of freedom, it frees them up to do more revolutionary work, and it sets an example and creates a legacy. The father of the great Paul Robeson was a runaway slave, and this has clearly had a big impact on him. Frederick Douglas escaped from slavery and consequently was able to contribute a lot to the liberation of humanity. And so on.

So yeah some things people label as 'lifestylism' are infact not inherently pointless. However a lot of the stuff people do, like being vegan and buying the 'fairtrade' coffee is just bullshit to make them feel good about themselves as it has no practical effect.

[S.Artesian]

The original question is a joke, isn't it?

Would anyone call the plantation slavery as practiced in the Caribbean, the US South, Brazil, Latin America a "life-style"?

Debt-peonage, serfdom, penal labor.. "life-styles"? Accumulation, dispossession, exploitation.... life-styles?

We are talking about social systems for the exploitation of labor. Has nothing to do with life-styles, as if such a thing even exists other than as a marketing device, a fashion supplement, to the daily gruel of exploitation and oppression.

Those fleeing or not fleeing, resisting or not resisting such systems are not engaged in life-styles, but in the reproduction and opposition to the reproduction of such systems.

[AK]

I fail to see the relevance of the question at hand.

[Dimentio]

The original question is a joke, isn't it?

Would anyone call the plantation slavery as practiced in the Caribbean, the US South, Brazil, Latin America a "life-style"?

Debt-peonage, serfdom, penal labor.. "life-styles"? Accumulation, dispossession, exploitation.... life-styles?

We are talking about social systems for the exploitation of labor. Has nothing to do with life-styles, as if such a thing even exists other than as a marketing device, a fashion supplement, to the daily gruel of exploitation and oppression.

Those fleeing or not fleeing, resisting or not resisting such systems are not engaged in life-styles, but in the reproduction and opposition to the reproduction of such systems.

This is probably due to the relative comfort enjoyed by most westerners today. Both racists and furries use to liken themselves to repressed minorities.

EDL believe that angry muslim preachers and some Englishman who is beaten by English muslims is equating a muslim occupation, while some furries believe that the bullying they endure is somehow equivalent with the oppression experienced by Jews, Romani and sexual minorities. This sense of lack of proportionality is meaning that when tough times will be here, westerners will be more exposed and less prone to answer the challenges with appropriate measures.

[khad]

I voted yes because this topic is so phail.

[Sasha]

because some people took the effort to actualy write an serious reply i'm not trashing this but i am closing the poll and give griffjam an verbal warning for creating it.

[KC]

Comparing slaves running away from a life of complete bondage, rape, violence and torture to kids dropping out of highschool.

I think this is a new low for griff.

[chimx]

i laughed out loud upon seeing this thread title.

[gorillafuck]

This is offensive.

[the last donut of the night]

Then why are people who "drop out" to spend more time working on revolutionary projects and less time interacting with capitalism stilled called lifestylists?

because the bloggers on crimethink aren't slaves; they're middle-class white boys