Poll: Socialism not so negative; capitalism not so positive.

[Jimmie Higgins]

This is a split from another thread because I think it would be worthwhile to discuss the rise in anti-capitalist, marginally pro-socialist sentiment in the US. I think a lot of comrades here get bogged down in all the tea-party stuff (which is good to discuss and understand and it is a dangerous development in US politics) while missing a less obvious left-ward trend in US society (because the trend hasn't fully found an organized way of expressing itself other than some important but still uneven protests against budget cuts).

This new poll (http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/05/18-3) which shows that despite the rise of the tea-parties, the Obama backlash/hangover, and demoralization of many workers after the election, that support for "socialism" among young people is about the same as their support for capitalism. In fact it seems to verify and uphold the Rasmussen poll form 2009 that said that "socialism" was increasing in popularity among the young while people across the board were suspicious of capitalism:


Keep in mind these findings reflect an overview of the public mind when Right wing views seem at a high point – with the Tea Party often cast as a barometer of American public opinion. The polls in this era do not suggest a socialist country, but not a capitalist-loving one either. This is not a “Center-Right” America but a populace where almost 50% are deeply ambivalent or clearly opposed to capitalism. Republicans and the Tea Party would likely call that a Communist country.

The story gets more interesting when you look at two vital sub-groups. One is young people, the “millennial generation” currently between 18 and 30. In the Pew poll, just 43% of Americans under 30 describe “capitalism” as positive. Even more striking, the same percentage, 43%, describes “socialism” as positive. In other words, the new generation is equally divided between capitalism and socialism.
Of course most people probably think socialism means a welfare state and northern European type societies, but even support for that is a remarkable sea-change. The fact that people are coming to these conclusions from their own experience despite being contrary to every piece of propaganda shoved at them from the media, liberals, conservatives, and tea-party loons, and distorted representations of socialism (and in the vacuum of mass reformist socialist groups let alone radical socialist groups) shows the possibilities to re-build working class fight-back with radical Marxism and anarchism at the core.

http://www.commondreams.org/files/images/UnitedStates_center_left.jpg

Socialist Worker: Looking for an alternative to capitalism (http://socialistworker.org/2010/05/24/looking-for-an-alternative)



Capitalism: Big Surprises in Recent Polls (http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/05/18-3)

[Universal Struggle]

most people hate socialism, they think it is free healthcare and welfare, if they knew what real socialism was they would pass out.

People want an alternative, but they are totally cut off from learning about socialism, they put the history chanel on, they hear about 100 million dead bodies, they read the Manifesto, it has an introduction by that wanker robert service.

Generally, National Socialism is being seen as the 3rd way, and alot of workers are being brainwashed by Racist bafoons.

[RadioRaheem84]

Most people think we should have a "third way" ala mixed Scandinavian economies.

Some think social democracy is socialism. Others are afraid socialism will equal to USSR.

[Proletarian Ultra]

http://www.commondreams.org/files/images/UnitedStates_center_left.jpg

I think this is important to emphasize. The US is not a center-right nation - it has a constitution that is designed to produce right-wing outcomes.

The electoral college and the campaign strategies designed around it minimize turnout in non-"swing" areas - i.e. where most workers live.
Low-turnout midterm elections ensure that 50% of the time, the country is ruled by less than 40% of the voters - the whiter, more affluent 40% of the voters.
The system of states is an enormous anti-labor gerrymander. Those states that weren't gerrymandered for the slaveocracy were mostly gerrymandered for the railroad barons. It still works the same way: probably most states, with a minority of the population, are controlled by anti-proletarian majorities - farmers, petit bourgeois (shopkeepers around military bases, independent long-haul truckers etc.), lumpenproles (prisoners), and members of the various security-state castes.
The fucking senate - don't even get me started.

[Robocommie]

I think this is important to emphasize. The US is not a center-right nation - it has a constitution that is designed to produce right-wing outcomes.

The electoral college and the campaign strategies designed around it minimize turnout in non-"swing" areas - i.e. where most workers live.
Low-turnout midterm elections ensure that 50% of the time, the country is ruled by less than 40% of the voters - the whiter, more affluent 40% of the voters.

Could you expand on this?

[Ocean Seal]

The truth is it seems that anarcho-capitalism is a creeping threat in the United States. When people hear about communism, socialism, or even Dvorak socialism, they immediately turn away regardless of what class their in. Whereas when opportunists like Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, and Ron Paul tell them that they want to get rid of taxes they immediately flock. All this goes back to the Regan era when Regan told everyone that they shouldn't pay taxes and that that would make them much happier. The people bought it, and now they think that whenever someone raises taxes they are directly "stealing" from them. Then people recoil and think that if taxes aren't raised they'll have more money without thinking about the fact that less taxes = less services and while a rich man can pay for private school a working class man can't so his children will have to go to substandard schools. People are hooked on instantaneous capitalism that doesn't allow them to think about the future. It's all about what they can get NOW. Socialism is seen as what will make the working class move into welfare because a person can ask his/herself whether or not they can pay the rent. If they can barely do so and they realize that taxes will go up with socialism then they shy away. We must erase what the Reganities have done for 30 years and only then will workers realize that communism is the right choice.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The truth is it seems that anarcho-capitalism is a creeping threat in the United States. When people hear about communism, socialism, or even Dvorak socialism, they immediately turn away regardless of what class their in. Whereas when opportunists like Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, and Ron Paul tell them that they want to get rid of taxes they immediately flock. All this goes back to the Regan era when Regan told everyone that they shouldn't pay taxes and that that would make them much happier. The people bought it, and now they think that whenever someone raises taxes they are directly "stealing" from them. Then people recoil and think that if taxes aren't raised they'll have more money without thinking about the fact that less taxes = less services and while a rich man can pay for private school a working class man can't so his children will have to go to substandard schools. People are hooked on instantaneous capitalism that doesn't allow them to think about the future. It's all about what they can get NOW. Socialism is seen as what will make the working class move into welfare because a person can ask his/herself whether or not they can pay the rent. If they can barely do so and they realize that taxes will go up with socialism then they shy away. We must erase what the Reganities have done for 30 years and only then will workers realize that communism is the right choice.

Well I think the above poll as well as a previous on done in 2009 with similar results demonstrate that despite the common claims that "Americans are inherently conservative" by politicians, the media, and the right-wing, Americans (particularly young Americans - I think unemployment between 16-30 is 25% now) Americans ARE coming to more socialist (or at least progressive) conclusions on their own.

So if the hard-core Reagan "true-believers" seem like they have the monopoly on what "real Americans" think, this is only because there is a huge political vacuum. The right wing evangelicals and shades of libertarianism are highly organized and have been since the 1970s - they are also funded by rich induvidual right-wingers as well as right-wing organizations and think tanks. The new reality where the younger generations are as open to socialist and reform-socialist ideas as they are to pro-market ideas shows there is a huge opportunity for radicals to begin to link with the working class. If we are able to do this, then the political terrain in the US would be flipped on its head because there are many more people who would be attracted to our ideas than to the ideas promoted by Glen Beck for example, let alone marginal ideologies like anarco-capitalism.

[Proletarian Ultra]

Could you expand on this?

Yeah, I'll try... You're more likely to vote in a presidential election if your vote can make a difference. Your vote can only make a difference if you live in a swing state - i.e. not, say, New York, Texas or California. So there's no incentive for voters to turn out, or for parties to mobilize them, in areas where the proletariat is numerous and growing: NYC, LA, Houston, Dallas, etc.

So presidential elections take place as if the most concentrated and advanced sections of the working class did not exist. In nearly every swing state, the proletariat is either fading (e.g. Ohio) or poorly developed (e.g. New Mexico, Virginia, Colorado).

In off year federal elections when the presidency is not up for grabs, turnout is for whatever reason extremely low - usually 40% or less. So for two years out of every four, the entire House of Representatives has been elected by less than half of the people.

On the states in general being an anti-labor gerrymander - this deserves more statistics than I'm giving it, but here's an anecdotal example. An aunt of mine lives in a fairly typical red state area. The major employers around her are: independent agriculture, a military base, a prison and a truck depot.

So, the small farmers have a fairly hard lot and depend mostly on their own labor plus machinery; they're still not proletarian. The large farmers employ wage labor, but it's mostly migrant; they vote, if at all, elsewhere. Workers and soldiers on the military base are proletarian, but their interests are partially aligned with capitalist imperialism. The prisoners are lumpenproles; the guards are in the same boat as the soldiers - proletarians employed against the proletariat. Most of the drivers who go in and out of the truck depot don't live in the area, but even if they did, most of them are 'independents' - highly oppressed petit bourgeois, but not proletarian.

In short, there's a structural non- and anti-proletarian majority in that area. (Highly subsidized by the taxpayer no less). Now, that's an economic configuration predominant in the South and inner West. That means you've got a structural non- and anti-proletarian plurality if not majority among the states - therefore in the Senate and electoral college as well.

In short, America is gerrymandered far right.

[RadioRaheem84]

I don't know, but I really think that Americans would really get behind autogestion, syndicalism and libertarian socialism. I just have a feeling that the public wouldn't be so much against private co-ops and supporting them as an alternative. Still, to transform entire society to fit this model, I doubt they would support. The American public has really bought into the idea that force = bad, even though the system forces us daily to conform to capitalism.

[Robocommie]

I don't know, but I really think that Americans would really get behind autogestion, syndicalism and libertarian socialism. I just have a feeling that the public wouldn't be so much against private co-ops and supporting them as an alternative. Still, to transform entire society to fit this model, I doubt they would support. The American public has really bought into the idea that force = bad, even though the system forces us daily to conform to capitalism.

Maybe, but remember that the country also has a romanticized vision of Revolution, because of the American Revolution. We can use that, I think, even though it was a liberal revolution that was heavily co-opted by the bourgeoisie without much in the way of "sans culottes".

[RadioRaheem84]

Maybe, but remember that the country also has a romanticized vision of Revolution, because of the American Revolution. We can use that, I think, even though it was a liberal revolution that was heavily co-opted by the bourgeoisie without much in the way of "sans culottes".

I think that the love for autogestion might be elevated by the large petit-bourgeoisie mentality that elevates the middle manager-small business owner type over the worker. Coupled with revolutionary fervor, I could see a syndicalist revolution in the States. This obviously would do little in terms of actual social change but it could be seen as a start.

[Robocommie]

I think that the love for autogestion might be elevated by the large petit-bourgeoisie mentality that elevates the middle manager-small business owner type over the worker. Coupled with revolutionary fervor, I could see a syndicalist revolution in the States. This obviously would do little in terms of actual social change but it could be seen as a start.

Yeah, I think you're right.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't know, but I really think that Americans would really get behind autogestion, syndicalism and libertarian socialism. I just have a feeling that the public wouldn't be so much against private co-ops and supporting them as an alternative. Still, to transform entire society to fit this model, I doubt they would support. The American public has really bought into the idea that force = bad, even though the system forces us daily to conform to capitalism.Right, I think people are much more on our side than the media and politicians portray American consciousness as being (i.e. they want us all to think that Joe the Plummer is a representation of "real American") so I don't think right-wing thought is as monolithic as many people do. However, I do see much of "common sense" liberal ideas being a much tougher nut to crack. So people who agree with us on 80% of things are not convinced that there is a real and ongoing class struggle; that institutions like the police and military exist to serve the current ruling side in the class struggle; that racism comes from the system not from some inherent flaw and xenophobia in all people... and then if you talk about revolution, people just think some kind of power-grab by a coup or secret band of people.