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Universal Struggle
27th May 2010, 17:34
I SAID:

I support revolutionary non separatist black nationalism, but many people have backwards views on liberation.

Some people think, whites oppress blacks, yet whites are exploited just as much, they too must labour for a wage from their capitalists.

Racism is used to separate the workers, in history, many black slaves, Native Americans and poor white workers joined forces and attempted revolts.

White racists are reactionary, but they are racist because they are brainwashed by the ruling class to hate black people to stop us uniting.

If Black people only struggle with black people, and whites with whites, we will never achieve revolution.

Huey Newton had the right idea, black and oppressed communities must start their own groups, but unless they unite with other groups, they become isolated and trapped.

The workers cause is Marxism leninism, no matter what color or religion, a black separate nation is reactionary and would divide workers.

Not only must racism be fought, but so must its root cause, capitalism and colonialism.

Racism
Sexism
Homophobia
Islamophobia

All are symptoms of the ruling classes maneuvers to separate us.

HE SAID:

Dogmatists and purists attack this position because they call it separatist or they say that to do this were creating divisions.

In reality these divisions exist in society, lets be realistic, and we have to directly challenge these oppressive social relationships not avoid them. Society and this power structure have alienated us, it systematically dominates us -- we should not rely on this system for liberation.

Revolution means changing the social relationships and power relationships that exist in this society that perpetuates oppression, and self-hatred. These social relationships are also carried over into our organizing or the left because we do not organize in a vacuum -- we are influenced by the dominant culture of the powers that be. In the left we suffer from what Frantz Fanon called internalized oppression (where we recreate and reflect the same oppressive social relationships that exist under capitalism).

In the left there is also class-reductionism where all other forms of oppression are ignored except for class.

Class reductionists would attack the autonomous movements of the oppressed and call them identity politics when the privileged leadership of these organizations get challenged and their quest for ruling over the oppressed is threatened.

I think this all comes from whos leading and who is fighting to lead the movement. The politics of any organization will be influenced by who makes up the organization.

If you have an organization where the majority of people are from a privileged background then your politics and the political positions of your organization will reflect the social position that is probably less genuine and more liberal. This relates to the left in general in the US today.

The vanguard parties are led by people who have privileged positions in society, therefore there are going to want to gravitate to a leadership position and power -- the privileged (white, upper middle class men, who have had the privilege and the time to dig into politics) are usually the ones leading and calling the shots within these vanguard parties and also hold this notion that theyre going to liberate the oppressed which is all rooted in their social position. A lot of these white folks suffer from the messiah complex.

The same goes for anarchists, who in North America and in particular in the US are influenced by a white middle class male position because the political SCENE is made up of them -- and the ones who dominate within the anarchist organizations (especially within a structureless environment) are those same people.
"
On Strategy: Collective Ownership and Self-Defense of Our Communities (http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/contested-zone/34102-strategy-collective-ownership-self-defense-our-communities.html)


Who is right, what shouyld i say in reply to his answer?

Jimmie Higgins
27th May 2010, 17:44
Some people think, whites oppress blacks, yet whites are exploited just as much, they too must labour for a wage from their capitalists. I disagree with this. Blacks and whites are both exploited and oppressed as workers - true - but many groups also suffer increased oppression in our society through racism, sexism, homophobia, nationalism, religious bigotry etc.

You are correct imo that these ills are caused by attempts by the ruling class to oppress all workers, but your debate opponent is correct in saying:


In reality these divisions exist in society, let’s be realistic, and we have to directly challenge these oppressive social relationships not avoid them.I see fighting the systematic inequalities between different parts of the working class is a precondition to creating a united working class movement. If the ruling class creates divisions to weaken us, then it follows that we will have to combat these divides and make strides towards evening out these divides in order to create a strong working class movement. Our weapon for liberation is solidarity and if there is significant inequality and no trust between parts of the working class to end those inequalities, then our solidarity is a chain with a lot of weak links.

So I think a response should take that into account - by then again, not everyone on the left sees it this way, so be true to how you see it.

There is a bit of a straw-man in the friend's description of Marxists and anarchists having white leadership which leads to liberal poltics. The last time I checked most primarily black, latino, LGBT run left-organizations were liberal, not radically nationalist. So does having black leadership really mean a closer connection to the needs and struggle of working class people in oppressed groups? Jessie Jackson as well as the most prominent 2nd wave feminists show the problems with his argument.

Robocommie
27th May 2010, 17:48
I disagree with this. Blacks and whites are both exploited and oppressed as workers - true - but many groups also suffer increased oppression in our society through racism, sexism, homophobia, nationalism, religious bigotry etc.


Indeed, we have to recognize that there are layers of oppression and exploitation, relating to pretty much every aspect of human existence.

Universal Struggle
27th May 2010, 17:49
but how can we overthrow the ruling class, without united revolutionary actions cross religeous/racial lines.

To me it is wrong to divide ourselves in order to eradicate the divisions sewn by the ruling class.

To preach seperation is wrong and i am against it with every fibre of my being.

Jimmie Higgins
27th May 2010, 18:36
but how can we overthrow the ruling class, without united revolutionary actions cross religeous/racial lines.

To me it is wrong to divide ourselves in order to eradicate the divisions sewn by the ruling class.

To preach seperation is wrong and i am against it with every fibre of my being.

Well the other part of the nationalist question is how does a minority of the population change conditions in all of society? The most radical sections of the Black Panthers wanted to organize with sincere radicals from other social groups because they realized that the kind of change necessary to smash racial oppression could not be accomplished even if all blacks united.

I think for the most part, the wind is in our direction now with this question. I think the new LGBT protests after the passage of Prop 8 have demonstrated that the new grassroots forces in the struggles against oppression are open to allies and see them as an important part in overcoming oppression.

So I guess in a way I think both your argument and parts of the nationalist's argument are correct. We do need to head-on confront racism and sexism and so on, but it can not be a fight only of the oppressed groups. Beyond that I am not as much concerned about organizing separately - I don't fault the BPP or DRUM or the radical feminists who felt that there was too much bigotry within the left in the 60s to organize jointly. But ideally we should be organizing all together. Today the situation is different than in the 1960s (and thankfully we finally seem to be moving away from the post-modern identity politics of the late 80s and 1990s) so I am optimistic that a new civil rights movement would be much more united. In part we can thank the right-wing for making it so obvious who is on what side - I think prop 8 and the shit in Arizona are helping to illustrate that an attack on one is really an attack on all in capitalist societies.

Universal Struggle
27th May 2010, 18:48
I understand the conditions that would lead a black worker to call or seperation, but i think, if one looks at it from a revolutionary perspective, then the only answer to the black workers problems are the same as their white and brown workers.

Marxist Revolution.