Log in

View Full Version : Debate in the SPUSA Over Statement on Greece



chegitz guevara
25th May 2010, 18:41
So the SPUSA International Commission is debating the two statements to decide which to adopt. Which would the comrades in Greece rather see?

statement 1

The Greek Crisis

Greece shows the current crisis of international capitalism in its
harshest form. This crisis is an attack by global capital on the
weakest link in the European welfare states. Since the fall of the
USSR, and the end of the Cold War, capitalism has sought to break the
power of the European working class, impose a neo-liberal agenda, and
end decades of welfare state benefits. The current global economic
crisis has allowed the ruling layer of capital, the so-called FIRE
sector (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate) to strike, refusing to lend
Greece any more money, creating the possibility of a Greek default.

The continued attack on the Euro, despite a trillion dollar
international bailout shows that capital cannot be appeased or
negotiated with. If Greece refuses to bow, it will be forced to
default on its debts, and have no choice but to impose the austerity
measures demanded by capitalism, unable to borrow money to pay its
workers. Greek workers are confronted with a stark choice: a crushing
defeat or socialist revolution.

American workers have been subjected to a series of lies about the
Greece. Claims that Greek workers are overpaid and retire at the age
of 53 are false: the average retirement age in Greece is 61.4 years,
later than the average European. Greek wages, already the lowest in
Europe, were slashed by previous governments to 1984 levels. The
average wage, including social security and taxes: a measly $1,063.
Despite claims that Greek government was irresponsible, that its debt
is unsustainable, the cost of servicing Greek debt is now less than
half of what it was in 1993, a mere 6% of GDP.

The Socialist Party USA rejects these lies and stands in solidarity
with the Greek workers, socialists, communists, and anarchists. We
urge the protesters to move further, not merely to reject the
despicable policies of the IMF/EU, but to overthrow capitalism
altogether. Only by abolishing capitalism can the Greek workers defend
their way of life.

statement 2


Solidarity with the Protests in Greece

The Socialist Party USA stands in solidarity with the workers and students protesting against the IMF/European Union imposed austerity package. Greek trade unions and socialist organizations have acted swiftly and correctly by using the most powerful tool available to workers – the general strike – to stop this process. The crisis in Greece may come to head in the coming period and we join other international socialist and radical political organizations in extending our promise to support our comrades in Greece.
We reject the claims circulated in the mainstream media in the US that seek to vilify the Greek welfare state. In some cases, the assertions are incorrect. For example, Greek workers do not, on average, retire at 53 years of age, but as with most workers in Europe, at 61 years. In other cases, the criticism amounts to a thinly veiled attempt to defend the bankrupt neoliberal values that define life in the United States. All workers, whether in Greece or the US, desire better lives through early retirement, pensions that offer living wages and free healthcare, public education and transportation.

It is equally important to mention that the US state carries a debt load that is far greater than the one Greece holds. Yet, this debt has not been used to improve the lives of working people in the US. It has, instead, funded a massive military machine that has brought war and destruction to people throughout the world. The American people should join their fellows in Greece in a demanding a better world in which the public ownership of social resources ensures a quality life far greater than the one we currently live in. Defeating the debt-fueled military industrial complex is a critical part of this struggle in the US.

Sadly, the Greek Socialist Party (PASOK) is implementing the package of cuts being proposed by the IMF/EU. The PASOK did not cause the crisis, but their willing collaboration with the project of the neoliberal financiers illustrates the bankruptcy of social democracy in Greece. As democratic socialists, we stand with left-wing parties such as the SYRIZA and with the everyday people of Greece who have taken to the streets to reject the austerity measures being imposed from above.

All across Europe, workers are taking to the streets to protest against proposed cuts in state funding. However, what they are defending is far more than just the small measures of humanity offered by a welfare state. They are defending democracy itself. Ever since 93% of voters in Iceland rejected the IMF-style bailout in March of this year, capitalist politicians and the financiers that bankroll them have sought to avoid and negate democratic norms. The measures in Greece are, therefore, being imposed by force and against the will of the vast majority of people. The protest happening in the streets, the strikes being carried out by the unions and the university seizures that have been conducted by the students represent the democratic will of the people of Greece.

As socialists in the US, we hope to learn the lessons offered by our Greek counterparts. We join and build protests to defend public services all across this country, while also offering a democratic socialism alternative. We believe that democratic socialism offers critical solutions to the global economic crisis. We support the nationalization of the financial sector, bringing society’s resources under democratic control through worker’s self-management and providing for the needs of all people through guaranteed rights to healthcare, pensions, housing and employment. Such measures offer road out of the impasse created by capitalist cycles of boom and bust.

We have been inspired and awakened by the struggle of the Greek workers. It is now time to build such a movement here in the United States!

Victory to the Greek protests!

No to IMF/EU austerity!

For a Democratic Socialist Alternative to Budget Cuts!

FSL
25th May 2010, 19:46
The second one seems too easy on Pasok and the bigger unions' bureaucracy who are as guilty as anyone in IMF/EU. Plus, also the "we stand with left-wing parties such as the SYRIZA" gives me the creeps.

I believe I'd choose the first one.

Spawn of Stalin
25th May 2010, 20:00
Aren't SYRIZA basically social democrats? Just to the left of PASOK, no? But they have Marxist-Leninists amongst them?

Either way I really think that the KKE are the only party truly deserving of international support from Communists and socialist parties. The statement "As democratic socialists, we stand with left-wing parties such as the SYRIZA and with the everyday people of Greece who have taken to the streets to reject the austerity measures being imposed from above." is all well and good but from what I have seen most people who have taken to the streets have been KKE supporters or just anarchists looking for a bit of a riot.

Die Neue Zeit
25th May 2010, 20:08
The second statement sounds too agitational, as clearly evidenced by the four exclammations at the end.

Anyway, the first statement is more concise, and I'd go with this one.

FSL
25th May 2010, 20:13
Aren't SYRIZA basically social democrats? Just to the left of PASOK, no? But they have Marxist-Leninists amongst them?


Syriza is part of the european left, curently a bit to the right compared to Die Linke. This could change with the congress the main party is having next month. Or the alliance could end, no one knows.
It is a coalition of some pretty small maoist, trotskyist, eurocommunist parties (like KOE, or the greek "branch" of ISO which is called DEA and some others) and of Synaspismos.

Synaspismos is made up by the eurocommunists that had split from KKE in 1968 and those that were purged from the CP in 1991 after they failed in liquidating it. It's not a "marxist-leninist" party in organization or ideology, there are tendencies etc.
Its right wing are shameless modern social-democrats who want to co-govern with Pasok, its main wing is pro-EU, pro-Eurozone, pro-humane capitalism and there exists a left wing that's in favour of nationalizing the banks, leaving the eurozone etc.

Die Neue Zeit
25th May 2010, 20:32
Why do you say SYRIZA is "a bit to the right when compared to Die Linke" when there are parties besides Synapsismos? The tendencies you described are comparable to those in Die Linke.

FSL
25th May 2010, 20:44
Why do you say SYRIZA is "a bit to the right when compared to Die Linke" when there are parties besides Synapsismos? The tendencies you described are comparable to those in Die Linke.

Syriza's adopted programme speaks of a fairer tax system, less corruption and the like but in the important areas like economy it stops on proposing a small "network of state-managed banks". That is using the few banks in which the state has a large share to increase competition in the banking sector and help small businesses and consumers.

Without being really certain about it, I think that Die Linke's plan for a program calls for the nationalization of the banking sector? If it doesn't than that's my bad and they're exactly where Die Linke is (since in Die Linke you also have the communist platfrom that could be compared to some of the more radical parties in Syriza).

Die Neue Zeit
25th May 2010, 22:22
They call for a state-coop mix, but exclude the role of private ownership in banks.

Ocean Seal
25th May 2010, 23:13
I like the first one, but I think that you should add a bit about how greece's working class is one of the hardest working groups of people in the entire world. Their wages have been frozen for a long time and they still hauled themselves into work everyday. A lot of capitalists have told me that the Greek working class is lazy as a defense for capitalism. This must be corrected so that we can blame the element responsible for this crash: the parasitic nature of the bourgeois.
Good Luck and May the Greek Working Class Inspire the Workers of the World to Unite and Overthrow the enemies of Mankind the Bourgeoisie.
Long Live Justice Long Live the Hammer and Sickle:hammersickle:

Red Commissar
25th May 2010, 23:57
The first one sounds more professional to me.

Honggweilo
26th May 2010, 00:05
first one, obviously

#FF0000
26th May 2010, 00:10
First one, I think.

Zeus the Moose
26th May 2010, 08:11
For comrades who might be curious, here is the statement that came out of the International Commission's debate on Greece. It's more or less the first statement with a couple changes:


Solidarity with the Protests in Greece
Passed by the SPUSA International Commission May 25, 2010

The Socialist Party USA resolutely supports the workers and students protesting against the IMF/European Union imposed austerity package. Greek trade unions and socialist organizations have acted swiftly and correctly by using one of the most powerful tools available to workers, the general strike, to combat this process. The crisis in Greece may come to head in the coming period and we join other international socialist and radical political organizations in extending our promise to support our comrades in Greece.

Greece shows the current crisis of international capitalism in its harshest form. This crisis is an attack by global capital on the weakest link in the European welfare states. Since the fall of the USSR and the end of the Cold War, capitalism has sought to break the power of the European working class, impose a neo-liberal agenda, and end decades of welfare state benefits. The current global economic crisis has allowed the ruling layer of capital, the so-called FIRE sector (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate) to strike, refusing to lend Greece any more money, creating the possibility of a Greek default.

The continued attack on the Euro, despite a trillion dollar international bailout shows that capital cannot be appeased or negotiated with. If Greece refuses to bow, it will be forced to default on its debts, and have no choice but to impose the austerity measures demanded by capitalism, unable to borrow money to pay its workers. Greek workers are thus confronted with a stark choice: a crushing defeat or socialist revolution.

American workers have been subjected to a series of lies about the Greece. Claims that Greek workers are overpaid and retire at the age of 53 are false: the average retirement age in Greece is 61.4 years, later than the average European. Greek wages, already the lowest in Europe, were slashed by previous governments to 1984 levels. The average wage, including social security and taxes: a measly $1,063. Despite claims that Greek government was irresponsible, that its debt is unsustainable, the cost of servicing Greek debt is now less than half of what it was in 1993, a mere 6% of GDP.

The Socialist Party USA rejects these lies and stands in solidarity with the Greek workers, socialists, communists, and anarchists. We urge the protesters to move further, not merely to reject the despicable policies of the IMF/EU, but to overthrow capitalism altogether. Only by abolishing capitalism can the Greek workers defend their way of life.

http://socialistparty-usa.org/statements/greeksolidarity510.html

Raúl Duke
4th June 2010, 15:34
The 1st one, although the above statement is actually good (better than the 2nd one of the previous 2 choices).

BeerShaman
4th June 2010, 15:47
Surely the first by far.

thomasludd
4th June 2010, 16:23
The first one.

28350
4th June 2010, 16:48
First!

Leo
4th June 2010, 17:55
Aren't SYRIZA basically social democrats?

Isn't the SPUSA basically social democrat?

gorillafuck
4th June 2010, 19:57
Isn't the SPUSA basically social democrat?
How are they?:confused:

chegitz guevara
4th June 2010, 20:23
Most members of the SPUSA are social democrats, but, most members of the SPUSA aren't active members, but are basically people who pay dues, get the paper, and never have further engagement with the organization. Most of the active members of the party are revolutionaries, but most of them are a little naive, and so we have a male co-chair who is an overt social democrat as well as a petty authoritarian. Sadly, right now, the Party is projecting a social democratic face, largely because of said male co-chair, but he's pissing more and more people off. Thus my hundred revolutionary plan. I hope to get one hundred revolutionaries to join the Party by next April, so we can take the party back at the next convention.

Saorsa
6th June 2010, 10:09
Isn't it a waste of time to fight to take back a small socialist organisation, rather than just joining/building an already revolutionary organisation?

Why do you think the SP USA is worth saving?

chegitz guevara
6th June 2010, 23:43
I do and I don't think it's worth saving. At a certain level, it means little to my organizing on the ground here in South Florida. But, there's a lot of comrades in the Party, around the country, who are interested in revolutionary politics, who are tired of the old sectarianism, who are interested in what other organizations are doing, who are interested in phenomenon like Kasama, and I think it's worth saving the organization for them. I don't fetishize the SP, but I do think we could be something like the WPNZ or other multi-tendency anti-capitalist groups in other countries. They key is overcoming the sectarianism of the social democrats, which I think is doable.