People's War in America

[autonomous bomb thrower]

How plausible does it sound if guerrilla groups within the U.S. were to establish base areas within the Native American reservations. I believe the Native Americans would enjoy the thougths of marxism based on their communal background and American oppression. What are your thoughts? Are there any other potentially revolutionary groups within America's countryside?

[scarletghoul]

Guerilla war has been attempted in the USA before, by the Black Liberation Army the Weathermen and the Symbionese Liberation Army, with varying but consistantly small degrees of success. The Weathermen were shit and no one likes them. The SLA were an artsy joke it seems. The BLA was pretty cool and had a lot of potential to establish mass base and so on, but it ultimately failed due to the incorrect leadership.

The BLA and the black movement in general came closest to Peoples War, as there were good attempts to establish mass support. George Jackson set out some pretty good ideas on how it could work, with an open political wing (BPP) and an underground guerilla organisation working seperately but in harmony to fight the power and establish inner city communes (urban liberated zones).

It's a mistake to assume PPW would have to be rural, and its an even bigger mistake to assume that the US could be taken from the countryside. Unlike China, India, etc, the vast majority of the US population is urban. In these urban areas however there is potential for a kind of peoples' war. With the right political leadership, a seperate military force could do well to weaken to pig power structure and create a revolutionary base in the concrete jungle. I think this urban approach would be much better than working from Native American reserves. Though they could provide good areas of support too. Any oppressed community alienated from the capitalist structure is a potential mass base

So I think a PPW is certainly possible, but on 2 very broad conditions-
1. It is adapted to suit the conditions of Amerika (urban, intercommunal, etc)
2. It is accompanied (nay, preceded) by the correct leadership and conciousness among the people

[autonomous bomb thrower]

I do not believe protracted people's war must be from within the counrtyside but it can be used as a tatic to coordinate with the urban guerrilla.. Is there any writings that elaborate on George Jackson's views on urban liberated zones and other tatical procedures in the urban setting?

[9]

How plausible does it sound if guerrilla groups within the U.S. were to establish base areas within the Native American reservations. I believe the Native Americans would enjoy the thougths of marxism based on their communal background and American oppression. What are your thoughts? Are there any other potentially revolutionary groups within America's countryside?

No. The working class is the only revolutionary class.

[Gecko]

people's war in america?..and on native american reservations??
you gotta be kidding..
IMHO anyone who would advocate such an infantile asinine strategy of a people's guerilla war in america now or in the foreseeable future is either a drooling idiot whose been reading too many action comic books lately and who has their head way up their ass or a government agent trying to set up some goofs,patsies,and fools for the kill..
people's war in america? absolute insanity or agent provocateur..
give me a fucking break!
where do they come from I ask you? where do they come from? :confused:

[RedRise]

people's war in america?..and on native american reservations??
you gotta be kidding..

I kinda have to agree with this. Any sort of a revolutionary struggle has got to start with informing the people. America has a long way to go. And what makes you so sure you're going to have the support of the Native American people?

[autonomous bomb thrower]

You guys are way to harsh. Notice it was a proposale and notice again I did not say we should do it now just as a general strategy in America.

[Dimentio]

How plausible does it sound if guerrilla groups within the U.S. were to establish base areas within the Native American reservations. I believe the Native Americans would enjoy the thougths of marxism based on their communal background and American oppression. What are your thoughts? Are there any other potentially revolutionary groups within America's countryside?

I think that would be completely idiotic and would probably just mean more repression and suffering for what arguably is the most oppressed group in America.

If there ever is a rural people's war in America, it would most likely be carried out by reactionary militias against a government which they deem "too progressive".

[autonomous bomb thrower]

No. The working class is the only revolutionary class.
You cannot deny the revolutionary potential of the worker peasant alliance.

[autonomous bomb thrower]

I think that would be completely idiotic and would probably just mean more repression and suffering for what arguably is the most oppressed group in America.

If there ever is a rural people's war in America, it would most likely be carried out by reactionary militias against a government which they deem "too progressive".
Please explain to me what reasoning you have behind saying this instead of just exerting your opinion.

[Dimentio]

Please explain to me what reasoning you have behind saying this instead of just exerting your opinion.

Because the American countryside is the stronghold of the right, and especially for the armed right. There are already hundreds if not thousands of armed and organised right-wing groups in America.

The inner cities and the urban working class areas are generally left-leaning, while the countryside is right-leaning and nativist - an issue which ultimately is boiling down to religion and race and the perceived "cultural marxism" of the federal government.

[scarletghoul]

As others have said it would be completely wrong and silly to start a PPW in Amerika right now. Effort must first be put into organising people and raising consciousness. But when that's been done enough I think there certainly will be a role for an armed campaign. Just not right now obviously


I do not believe protracted people's war must be from within the counrtyside but it can be used as a tatic to coordinate with the urban guerrilla.. Is there any writings that elaborate on George Jackson's views on urban liberated zones and other tatical procedures in the urban setting?
Well there's a few manuals and writings on urban guerilla war around. George Jackson wrote a little bit about it in his Blood In My Eye, particularly the first part "letter to a comrade". The whole book is great though and everyone should read it in my opinion. But yeah I think you would find the first part interesting. I cant find it in full online however

[Lyev]

You cannot deny the revolutionary potential of the worker peasant alliance.Please remind me of the peasant population in modern America? Something like 78%, right?

EDIT: I think if a revolutionary situation in the USA, or in any of the developed, western world, did come about the revolutionary, anti-capitalist forces would be doomed. It's all very well to say some stuff like "they may have the money, but we have the fire in our hearts", or something stirring like that, but, at the end of the day, unless the soldiers and army personnel stage a huge mutiny, several nerdy, skinny* leftists running around with 1 crappy gun for every 5 people is going to fail against tanks, state-of-the-art technology, huge machine guns, submarines, lots of experience, lots and lots of money and planes. Counterrevolutionaries would know the territory and surrounds just as well as the revolutionary forces. It wouldn't be like the US vs. Vietcong in Vietnamese forests. Sorry, I'm trying to be realistic, not pessimistic.

*I am really not referring to anyone specific on this forum.

[Chimurenga.]

The SLA were an artsy joke it seems.

The SLA were as pretentious as the Weatherman, I'd say. However, they were able to ransom hundreds of thousands dollars, possibly even millions, from one of the richest people in California at the time. And all of that money was used to feed the areas poor and homeless. Other than that, they didn't do a whole lot. They robbed a few banks and shot a school administrator.

[scarletghoul]

EDIT: I think if a revolutionary situation in the USA, or in any of the developed, western world, did come about the revolutionary, anti-capitalist forces would be doomed. It's all very well to say some stuff like "they may have the money, but we have the fire in our hearts", or something stirring like that, but, at the end of the day, unless the soldiers and army personnel stage a huge mutiny, several nerdy, skinny* leftists running around with 1 crappy gun for every 5 people is going to fail against tanks, state-of-the-art technology, huge machine guns, submarines, lots of experience, lots and lots of money and planes. Counterrevolutionaries would know the territory and surrounds just as well as the revolutionary forces. It wouldn't be like the US vs. Vietcong in Vietnamese forests. Sorry, I'm trying to be realistic, not pessimistic.
A few points.

1. At this stage, in a revolutionary situation, the majority of leftists will not be skinny nerds.
2. What makes you think there'd be "1 crappy gun for every five people" ? Guns are not difficult to get in the USA.
(These embelishments you make to the hypothetical situation are the complete opposite of what would happen, and clearly show that you are cynical at the expense of realism)
3. A lot of ghetto terrain is completely unsuitable for tanks and other large army vehicles... let alone submarines :lol:
4. Maybe you don't know a lot about guerilla warfare, but it would not be a case of revolutionaries in pitched battles with the US Army. Technological superiority can be overcome with the correct tactics and mass support. And money is not the most important thing either. One cheap bullet can destroy a $5,000,000 helicopter.
5. The concrete jungle can be just as impenetrable as the real jungle; there are so many buildings, tunnels, etc. And more often than not, the people DO know it much better than the pigs

Some people talk about urban guerilla war like it's some fantasy concept that has never happened. There are numerous examples of it around the world and throughout history - Iraq, Ireland, Palastine, Uruguay, Lebanon, etc.

[Lyev]

1. At this stage, in a revolutionary situation, the majority of leftists will not be skinny nerds.Sorry, by "skinny nerds" I mean to pose the question: where on earth do you expect to get funding and military expertise from? Who is going to train normal party members? Furthermore, although I know a lot of devoted people, I'm not sure how willing they would be to die "for the cause".

2. What makes you think there'd be "1 crappy gun for every five people" ? Guns are not difficult to get in the USA.
(These embelishments you make to the hypothetical situation are the complete opposite of what would happen, and clearly show that you are cynical at the expense of realism)This is a question of funding. Again, where do you think the money is going to come from? And if a group of leftists did have the money, don't you think the CIA, FBI, government etc. would get slightly suspicious about people stockpiling supplies, weaponry and ammunition on native soil?

3. A lot of ghetto terrain is completely unsuitable for tanks and other large army vehicles... let alone submarines :lol:Ok, perhaps submarines were a silly example, but it's not like the US, British, French or German army is just going to give up because they can't use "tanks and other large army vehicles". They would be using apaches, or firing in heat-seeking missiles from afar.

4. Maybe you don't know a lot about guerilla warfare, but it would not be a case of revolutionaries in pitched battles with the US Army. Technological superiority can be overcome with the correct tactics and mass support. And money is not the most important thing either.So are you planning to build tunnels, or build some traps like the Vietcong did? I wouldn't like to think of the civilian death-toll, as well, from ordinary people who are just shot in the cross-fire. In Nepal it has been something 12,000 people so far, and that's a largely non-urban enviroment. There's an estimated 10,000 or so in Afghanistan, and some guess put Iraq's civilian body-count in excess of 1,000,000. And this also comes back to a previous point: who do you know on the revolutionary left, at the moment, who has the military expertise and knowledge for overcoming "technological superiority"?
One cheap bullet can destroy a $5,000,000 helicopter.Please find me the marksman who can shoot the driver of a helicopter, in the heat of battle, adrenaline pumping, from at least something like 80 to 120 ft away. This is also assuming the helicopter is going quite fast.

5. The concrete jungle can be just as impenetrable as the real jungle; there are so many buildings, tunnels, etc. And more often than not, the people DO know it much better than the pigsI am not denying this, I just think picking a fight with the US armed forces, or the British armed forces, or, in fact, the armed forces of any developed country, is the wrong fight to pick. As I have said you don't want to incur the wrath of some of the best trained, well-equipped, most experienced fighters on the planet. It just won't end well.

Some people talk about urban guerilla war like it's some fantasy concept that has never happened. There are numerous examples of it around the world and throughout history - Iraq, Ireland, Palastine, Uruguay, Lebanon, etc.I know it's not fantasy: but we're talking about guerrilla war in the US here. Hasn't it happened before, with the RAF? I heard that they didn't do too well, although I'm not very well read on it.

Anyway, at the end of the day, we all have the same aim: to end the hegemonic grip of capital and to overthrow the ruling class. I just think that the left, as a whole, can be far too panglossian about this kind of thing. We should be preparing for the absolute worst. Optimism is good, but not too much of it, and not when the stakes are so high. Furthermore, even if a revolution had to come down to armed struggle between bourgeois and proletarian forces, it's still ages into the future. We should be more worried at the moment with propagandizing, getting our message across, intervening in struggle and building the socialist-consciousness of the working class. Sorry if I seem pessimistic.

[The Red Next Door]

After we get the army and the people etc on our side.

[Lyev]

After we get the army and the people etc on our side.Precisely. I think this is almost a presupposition for a serious discussion on this sort of topic. If the army were on our side, and realised, despite the amount of coercion they have and the people they fight for, that they're actually just normal working people, then who would there actually be to fight?

[the last donut of the night]

No. The working class is the only revolutionary class.

And most native people today are working class.

[9]

And most native people today are working class.

The majority of virtually all 'peoples' are workers (or are of the working class), but Native American workers aren't revolutionary as 'native people'; they form part of a revolutionary class - as workers, as part of the working class.

[scarletghoul]

Sure, but you can't deny that their revolutionary potential is greatly increased by their status as an oppressed community, as native americans.

A big part in adapting any revolutionary campaign to a country like America, is to take into account the differant ethnic communities that exist and to mobilise the most oppressed among them. Revolutionary communism isn't just an economic transition of power to the working class. That's a key part of how it works, but its not the full picture. Communism is about the wretched of the earth rising up and taking what's ours, and this includes the oppressed communities of native americans.

[Obrero Rebelde]

The Tea Party is supposedly very "revolutionary".

As for the native peoples of the Americas, you fucking better believe they're revolutionary. Certainly more revolutionary than the vast majority of white workers. They are OPPRESSED NATIONS. Isn't that incentive enough to revolt against U.S. Imperialism?

[Durruti's Ghost]

I'm not sure how one would apply the concept of "people's war" to the heavily-urbanized environment of the United States. Say a large portion of the American working class seized control of the means of production, transportation, communication, etc., armed itself, and then attempted to defend these gains from the police and military--even as segments of the military itself broke off and started to fight the rest of the military in a relatively conventional manner. Would this count as a people's war, or does a people's war only exist in the form of a long, protracted guerrilla struggle?

[FreeFocus]

And most native people today are working class.

Most Natives are working-class, but most are also reactionary in the most disgusting, illogical ways (military service, most notably).

A "People's War" will not be happening anytime soon in the United States.

[Comrade_Julian]

The rate that socialism is growing in the US the plausibility of a war rises. Although I do see a problem with an actual war. Would we be fighting the army of which is made up of primarily working class? The revolution in Russia had much of the army on the side of the communists. What makes that so ridiculous here? I don't see it as ridiculous. A people either becomes so poor that they rise up or so educated that they rise up, i.e. it is nearly inevitable of an uprising. Whether it is through war is on thing whether an uprising happens is a completely different think.

One thing is certain though that we will win in the end. Another is for certain, if it is armed, the soldiers must be on our side, and that isn't ridiculous. Russia was in an unpopular war and when the Bolshaviks reached the soldiers they striked and mutinied. We have the same thing but must educate the people of america.

Another thing with the use of apache helicopters and such in an urban guerrilla war, I doubt these would be used on targets inside urban settings. One thing we know for sure is that america not only is a war machine but is a propaganda machine. Bombs and such would not be used by the US in Urban environments becuase of civilian casualties. Civilian casualties in another country is one thing but if the outcome of a war lays on which side has the most support, they will be careful to get that support, i.e. helicopters would not be used in urban environments. In an urban environment we would have the upper hand.

[#FF0000]

Another thing with the use of apache helicopters and such in an urban guerrilla war, I doubt these would be used on targets inside urban settings

Keep in mind you're talking about a country whose police bombed an apartment block and accidentally set the entire neighborhood on fire.

[Dimentio]

The Tea Party is supposedly very "revolutionary".

As for the native peoples of the Americas, you fucking better believe they're revolutionary. Certainly more revolutionary than the vast majority of white workers. They are OPPRESSED NATIONS. Isn't that incentive enough to revolt against U.S. Imperialism?

Yes, the problem is of course that there are about 3-4 million of them. The rest of the country has over 300 million people.

[Tribune]

How plausible does it sound if guerrilla groups within the U.S. were to establish base areas within the Native American reservations. I believe the Native Americans would enjoy the thougths of marxism based on their communal background and American oppression. What are your thoughts? Are there any other potentially revolutionary groups within America's countryside?

With respect, you're just asking people to get themselves killed or arrested in isolated rural locations where local law enforcement has no effective counterpoint to curtail its abuses, in an environment subject to immediate federal oversight (that means the FBI and the ATF), and with a domestic population pre-disposed to hating leftists, including many Trads on the various reservations, who won't look kindly on white people bringing the law down on their heads.

You, with this action, increase the authority of the capitalist state, because you provide it with a broad public justification for expanding its already comprehensive anti-terrorism posture.

And it will be under the aegis of counter-terrorism that your cadres will be pursued, relentlessly - in an environment where they have no real domestic support, and no population willing to feed, clothe, hide and arm them.

The capitalist state will come out stronger from such an attempt, at this point in time.

[Tribune]

Sure, but you can't deny that their revolutionary potential is greatly increased by their status as an oppressed community, as native americans.

A big part in adapting any revolutionary campaign to a country like America, is to take into account the differant ethnic communities that exist and to mobilise the most oppressed among them. Revolutionary communism isn't just an economic transition of power to the working class. That's a key part of how it works, but its not the full picture. Communism is about the wretched of the earth rising up and taking what's ours, and this includes the oppressed communities of native americans.

Islam has more traction in Rezcountry than any sort of communism. Most reservations are divided between Traditionalists and BIA stooges, and their politics and political milieu bear little resemblance to 1848, 1871, 1917 or 1925.

Indigenous concerns are important, on their own terms - but I think it might be a wee bit naive to assume that the Trads are revolutionary in the Marxist sense.

Anyway, Amerindian irredentism pretty much reached its high water in the mid 1970s, and has declined ever since, as the wages of COINTELPRO and infiltration have pitted most of the leadership against each other, or buried them for decades in prisons.

[The Douche]

Sorry, by "skinny nerds" I mean to pose the question: where on earth do you expect to get funding and military expertise from? Who is going to train normal party members? Furthermore, although I know a lot of devoted people, I'm not sure how willing they would be to die "for the cause

I'm not really interested in this discussion, not because its not fun (its certainly fun), but because its unnecessary, at this time. In the future, I have no doubt that there will arise a need for some level of armed conflict. But that is a long time off.

I just want to respond to the quoted portion above. There are people like me, we do exist, there are not a lot of us, but there are more than you think. I am a US army combat veteran, and I know plenty of other combat vets who are now revolutionaries.

[MilkmanofHumanKindness]

How plausible does it sound if guerrilla groups within the U.S. were to establish base areas within the Native American reservations. I believe the Native Americans would enjoy the thougths of marxism based on their communal background and American oppression. What are your thoughts? Are there any other potentially revolutionary groups within America's countryside?

Comrade autonomous bomb thrower,

I am going to assume that you are talking about this currently, or setting up such groups right now. If I am mistaken, I apologize, and ask that you clarify in what context you intend this to occur.

Guerrilla War within the U.S would be unsuccessful. While many American Indians do hate the U.S Government, and it's previous actions, I think a guerrilla war based on the reservation would ultimately fail. We can all look to how previous incidents have been used to increase the repression within Capitalist society, such as The Nuremberg Fire, and 9/11. Also, many American Indians also are reformists, desiring to slowly increase the Capitalist economy and welfare state.

All that a Native American uprising would do is just discredit Marxism even more in the United States, cause needless casualties, etc.

Perhaps, after we have raised class consciousness and an awareness of how the Capitalist system exploits and oppresses, then we can discuss the role of Native American movements in the struggle for Revolution.

I also would like to question, why American Indians specifically? They can definitely be part of an overall larger movement, but my understanding of Marxist theory is that the Revolution must be accomplished by all working people, of all races. I think we risk losing the heart of the International Struggle by focusing on specific cultures or races. Capitalism destroys Human Dignity, and thus it must be all non-bourgeois Humans to fight against it.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Afterthought; Terribly sorry if I offended anyone by referring to "Native Americans" or "American Indians" incorrectly. I use the term American Indians because it is what the American Indians or Native Americans I know prefer to be termed as.

[Trotskist]

I like your idea. We cannot be too rational, and square minded. We need dreamers, utopians and big ideas. We need a change in USA, and we cannot have fear. Che Guevara didn't know the word fear, pessimism and frustration

.



You guys are way to harsh. Notice it was a proposale and notice again I did not say we should do it now just as a general strategy in America.

[HammerAlias]

The American radical left-wing organizations are generally idle and apathetic. Most radical groups promote and advocate for a revolution, yet nothing major or noteworthy actually happens.

[Dimentio]

The American radical left-wing organizations are generally idle and apathetic. Most radical groups promote and advocate for a revolution, yet nothing major or noteworthy actually happens.

Most likely because the majority of Americans are content with the current system.

[A.J.]

I think that the U.S. army and national guard have a greater potential to become revolutionary than, for example, the British army(the members of which are totally reactionary from top to bottom).

At least amongst recruits from ethnic minorities, anyway. Poor White Americans are loath to admit that they may have interests in common with Ethnic Minority groups of the same socio-economic background. My theory is that, psychologically, it makes poor whites feel better about themselves to think they are of the same caste of people as the ruling class(who are, of course, almost exclusively white)

[Raúl Duke]

First off,


Because the American countryside is the stronghold of the right, and especially for the armed right. There are already hundreds if not thousands of armed and organised right-wing groups in America.

The inner cities and the urban working class areas are generally left-leaning, while the countryside is right-leaning and nativist - an issue which ultimately is boiling down to religion and race and the perceived "cultural marxism" of the federal government.

While this is true, it's also regional-specific. I don't see the people of New England's countryside (I looked at electoral districts votes from 2008 and all of NE was blue, the republicans seem to make a minority everywhere in New England) to be as reactionary as the ones in the Southern countryside.

I've also have the feeling that we may be ignoring suburbia in this equation. Suburbia perhaps also has a good share of reactionaries.

Now lastly, a "People's War" in the countryside in the U.S. I think is highly unlikely at this point.

[HammerAlias]

Most likely because the majority of Americans are content with the current system.

Because they do not understand and do not want to understand the atrocities of the current system.

[Chimurenga.]

Because they do not understand and do not want to understand the atrocities of the current system.

also, most Americans don't understand what power they posses and are taught to feel like they can't change anything.

[Magón]

I dunno, you could have a People's War in America happen? Probably not from the Left, as it's more likely to happen from the Right? Maybe Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, possibly Utah all decide to do what the Southern States did in the 1860s and do something like that? A Leftist Revolution probably won't happen without a reasonable backing of the American people, which it just doesn't have.

[DEPAVER]

It didn't take Texas Rangers very long to put down an extremely well armed militia group in the Davis Mountains. I believe it was in the late 1990's.
A battalion of Marines could deal with armed citizens of much greater numbers in about 30 minutes or less.
The only hope in such scenarios would be for military groups to commit treason and join with citizens. Maybe a million or so could march on Warshington and throw out the criminals, but too many people in America are fat and happy. There's not enough widespread despair yet. As long as people have a roof over their head, access to food and gas in the SUV, there's not going to be any revolution in America.
But that will change. Best option is to just back and watch the whole thing collapse upon itself, which could well happen in the next 50 years or so. Rebuild from the ashes establishing semi-autonomous bioregionally based democracies of mutual aid. Along the lines of what was here before white folks showed up.

[Qayin]

People War? Not Likely.

Urban Guerrillas? Sure, but they won't be successful.

[La Comédie Noire]

I don't think proletarian revolutions in the United States or the other industrialized nations will be done by armed, clandestine groups. I'm sure quite a few groups will try to take credit for a revolutionary upsurge and even more will be arrested under the mistaken assumption they are leading it.

[TheUSSocialist]

The only thing that will get attention is the collapse of capitalism. That is what we need to facilitate. Take money out of the banks; cash in 401k's; cash in insurance policies; cash in cd's; do not use direct deposit; do not use credit cards; sell your homes and rent; buy used cars....etc. consumerism drives capitalism, period. FILE FOR BANKRUPTCY!

[Reznov]

Honestly, with all of the modern technology and surveliance America has and our own FBI, CIA and others. It'd make the Stasi water at the mouth with what we have nowadays. So no, It is not possible and if there are groups, rest assure the government of America knows about it, assumes they are a threat, are tracking them and are ready.

Nope, you just have to let Capitalism self-destruct first.

People arent going to revolt when they are able to get cheap fast food.

[TheUSSocialist]

People War? Not Likely.

Urban Guerrillas? Sure, but they won't be successful.

Look, this is where we lefty/whitey people don't have a clue. We need to get hooked up with our brothers and sisters who actually live the struggle on a daily basis. Welfare, foodstamp, unemployment lines, discrimination, etc., etc. Urban warfare will be how it goes down because the "country folk" are hardcore idiot republicans/democrats without a clue (and I live in the country), and the capitalists are not gonna just turn it over to us. So, we had better find some unity in purpose with our inner city kind. There are neighborhoods where the police simply will not go. So urban warfare is a possibility.

[TheUSSocialist]

the degree to which we remain affected by the past is the degree to which we are prevented from advancing to the future.

[Qayin]

Look, this is where we lefty/whitey people don't have a clue. We need to get hooked up with our brothers and sisters who actually live the struggle on a daily basis. Welfare, foodstamp, unemployment lines, discrimination, etc., etc. Urban warfare will be how it goes down because the "country folk" are hardcore idiot republicans/democrats without a clue (and I live in the country), and the capitalists are not gonna just turn it over to us. So, we had better find some unity in purpose with our inner city kind. There are neighborhoods where the police simply will not go. So urban warfare is a possibility.
lol ok you have no idea what were talking about.

Anti Imperialist forces like another RAF/Weather Underground could have a go but they wont inspire revolution

[AK]

Peoples' War in the USA? fapfapfap

[Reznov]

At least amongst recruits from ethnic minorities, anyway. Poor White Americans are loath to admit that they may have interests in common with Ethnic Minority groups of the same socio-economic background. My theory is that, psychologically, it makes poor whites feel better about themselves to think they are of the same caste of people as the ruling class(who are, of course, almost exclusively white)

:rolleyes:

Yeah, because you know every "Poor White American" and their opinions, right?

[Reznov]

Look, this is where we lefty/whitey people don't have a clue. We need to get hooked up with our brothers and sisters who actually live the struggle on a daily basis. Welfare, foodstamp, unemployment lines, discrimination, etc., etc. Urban warfare will be how it goes down because the "country folk" are hardcore idiot republicans/democrats without a clue (and I live in the country), and the capitalists are not gonna just turn it over to us. So, we had better find some unity in purpose with our inner city kind. There are neighborhoods where the police simply will not go. So urban warfare is a possibility.

I read this and I lose all hope for any Revolution in the U.S.A.

[revogirl]

I THINK i HAVE THE SOLUTION SO COME ON ALL YOU AMERICAN ACTIVISTS GET BUSY.

This action would be suicidal at best you can say that the Americans have one over on us Brits in that you have the right to bear arms but they would be no match.
I would really love to be able to say something positive but I don't know if I can.
The US army would have to get involved somehow so lets look at the options first one they don't side with the people the revolution is doomed straight off.
The second option has quite a lot more promise in that if but this is a really huge if the American proletariats could organise an indefinite general strike and then started getting the support of the army then at least the British wouldn't go in.
I think with absolutely no doubt in that sort of situation all American citizens would unite in solidarity.
I am a revolutionary communist and want absolutely nothing more than this to occur.
It seems no matter how much here in the UK working class people get kicked in the teeth my comrades and I can't move them into action although we try and try.
I believe the Americans would take even more shifting.
The American capitalism propaganda machine has systematically brainwashed the American people for so many decades into believing that any form of socialism or communism is so evil the US folk would all be crapping themselves as soon as they even thought of leaving the familiar boundaries of good old uncle sams capitalism.
I would give anything in the world to be proved wrong but if the Americans could revolt then it might not be at all inconceivable that the British workers would consider uniting with them.
This could actually encourage other countries to follow.
Trotsky always said that you could not have a successful revolution in just one country it had to be international to stand any chance .
Please allow me to indulge here for a minute and get carried away and think what other countries would also join in .
Greece?
Germany?
Spain?
Italy?
China?

[TheUSSocialist]

lol ok you have no idea what were talking about.

Anti Imperialist forces like another RAF/Weather Underground could have a go but they wont inspire revolution

REVOLUTION will never happen in the US until the system completely collapses. There will not be a workers strike because we are fractured as a class. Divided among racial, religious, political, or whatever lines that don't amount to nothing. We say we want a change, but do we really? Are we doing what it takes to facilitate the collapse of capitalism? Functioning as a whole means everyone acting individually together. Pull the money carpet out from under the capitalists. That is the only thing that will work. Remember LA after the police were acquitted for the Rodney King beating??? Why would they do that to their own neighborhoods??? It's not theirs it's the capitalists BURN IT DOWN! FORCLOSURES, BANKRUPTCIES, REPOSSESIONS, UNEMPLOYMENT, DESPERATE TIMES WILL INDUCE DESPERATE MEASURES. We've got it too good.

[TheUSSocialist]

We all know that Capitalism will fail; it's built in to it. We just need to spur it on a little. I do everything I can at work to cost the "company" more money; and when I'm off work I do what I can to cut the costs of what I consume. I've had cars repossesed, I've filed bankruptcy. People just need to commit to it themselves in everyday life and not wait for inspiration to come from a larger than life iconic person who don't exist. Strain the system enough and it will break. Right now the Government is throwing billions into the banking system (The Fed) and the Fed turns right around and promises to bail the Government out??? Are you serious? They think the hole will get filled by putting money into it. LMAO people don't spend the money, don't borrow the money, etc. and it will fall!

[TheUSSocialist]

There are people like me, we do exist, there are not a lot of us, but there are more than you think. I am a US army combat veteran, and I know plenty of other combat vets who are now revolutionaries.


I wholeheartedly agree that inevitably we will need the military on our side; at least part of it. But never underestimate the lengths a capitalist will go to in order to hold on to power and profit from it.
Could you imagine a force of "leftist guerillas" storming into a fox tv station and broadcasting from it!!! How great would that be?!

[Nolan]

What an insane idea. The government would slaughter all the guerrillas within a week.

[AK]

Could you imagine a force of "leftist guerillas" storming into a fox tv station and broadcasting from it!!! How great would that be?!
I would argue that we would rather see ordinary dissident workers storming and hijacking that station - rather than a few leftist guerrillas hiding behind balaclavas and essentially alienating themselves from the social and economic struggle and those who actually hold the power to dismantle capitalism in their hands. Seeing armed fighters on the TV would give workers the illusion that revolution necessarily entails guns and a long and bloody war.

[CHAIRMAN GONZALO]

Does anyone think a people's war is feasible in the U.S.A? To be honest, I due to the following reasons;

1) There is an American working class that is oppressed.
2) There is a bourgeoisie that oppresses and exploits the American working class.
3) There is poverty and social injustice.
4) Thus the requisites are here for a desire to transform American society.

The only difference would be that the majority of the working class here in the U.S.A is composed of the proletariat, if not completely proletariat and not of peasants. The war would have to start in urban areas against the pigs and gradually start establishing popular base areas.

In addition, once the American proletariat is in power a democratic-bourgeois revolution wouldn't be necessary. What would be necessary would be a proletarian state to advance the interests of the American working class and to keep the enemy down.

Well guys hope to have a good discussion. All ideas are welcomed. I've been thinking about this concept for a long time and finally decided to put it out there.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Does anyone think a people's war is feasible in the U.S.A? To be honest, I due to the following reasons;

LOL what color is the sky in your world?

[CHAIRMAN GONZALO]

LOL what color is the sky in your world?

Well, im not talking about launching a people's war in actuality. That would be suicide. In a favorable situation is when a people's war would be beneficial for the American working class. The economy would have to be worse than it is now, blacks,latinos,and other oppressed nationalities would have to wake up in conjunction with the white working class and all be under the leadership of a vanguard party. A genuine communist party.

[9]

Uh, there is already a thread about this same exact thing: http://www.revleft.com/vb/peoples-war-america-t135891/index.html

[scarletghoul]

Right now, a genuine guerilla war would indeed be suicidal.

However I don't think urban guerilla war can be counted out altogether, there are considerable current and historical examples of its successful application. But these have only been in areas when the masses support the guerillas and the communities have genuine ties with them (Iraq, Ireland, Palestine, Lebanon etc). In other words like in a rural PPW the guerilla must swim through the masses like a fish in water. However in this case it is even more important to have popular support, as you can't just withdraw to some mountain.. Anyway yeah, so before considering any of this stuff you need to build a mass base of support. This is what the Panthers started to do, through propaganda, self-defense and just as importantly 'serve the people' programs, where they began to set up a communal social infastructure and establish the Party as servant of the people and vanguard of the revolution, with the idea of building kinda urban communes in those areas where there would be mass support for the party/revolution as well as a kind of revolutionary social model.

Certainly, large portions of the urban US population could be organised in this way and from them a mass base could be forged. That would however take several years, and only then would one really be able to tell whether an urban guerilla campaign, a straight up insurrection, or some other tactic, would be the correct next move.

[Os Cangaceiros]

There are already hundreds if not thousands of armed and organised right-wing groups in America.

Thousands of armed right-wing groups in America?

Is that really how the American political environment is portrayed in Sweden?

[BuddhaInBabylon]

Right now, a genuine guerilla war would indeed be suicidal.
.


Interesting reply. Certainly the Black Panthers had it together with their social outreach initiatives....
I am of the opinion that any sort of organized "peoples war" is damn near impossible now in this country. The advent of surveillance technology has made organizing undetected virtually impossible; in the way of organizing on a large scale which would be required for a "peoples war." The key word there is undetected. Most of what you say, write, buy, and do is being observed in this and other countries. Don't ever forget that. Thought crimes like Orwell writes of aren't a reality quite yet, but you better believe that criterion are in place to observe your behavior in many many many different ways.

War against who? is my real question... the US government? what that really equates to is war against the US military. "all threats foreign and domestic." that's their code and they WILL uphold it. The cops have no problem brutalizing and murdering civilians every damn day of the week. what makes you think a US soldier would neglect his duty by NOT putting down an uprising? The face of warfare has changed as well, you must realise....the funding and tech that goes into the US war machine is unfathomable.
I have worked around enough defense contractors, government agencies, etc. to know that if it's toe to toe, you don't stand a chance.

The "real" war, the only feasible one in my mind, is in the hearts of men and women across this nation now. We must all battle on the only frontline at which we can be triumphant.

[BuddhaInBabylon]

not to mention the fact that said tech is concentrated in urban areas exponentially greater than rural, which leads me to believe that if you were gonna start something, the city would be the last place you would want to do it.

Whacked out right wing militia groups have it right in this regard. if you wanna keep under the radar, you better buy yourself a tent and sleeping bag.

[NGNM85]

lol ok you have no idea what were talking about.

Anti Imperialist forces like another RAF/Weather Underground could have a go but they wont inspire revolution

Holy shit. There's one thing we actually agree on.

[Communist]

Uh, there is already a thread about this same exact thing: http://www.revleft.com/vb/peoples-war-america-t135891/index.htmlThanks.
Moved and merged.
.

[AK]

Thousands of armed right-wing groups in America?

Is that really how the American political environment is portrayed in Sweden?
To be fair, that's how I thought it was, too :blushing:

[RED DAVE]

Certainly the Black Panthers had it together with their social outreach initiatives....Actually, the point at which the Panthers began to engage in "social outreach," instead of reaching out to the masses, especially in the workplaces, was the point at which they began a political retreat. All that stuff about free breakfast programs, etc., is basically social work, which the bourgeoisie can do a lot better any time they care to.

The work of the Panthers was carried out by groups like the League of Revolutionary Black Workers, Dodge Revolutionary Movement, etc., in the workplaces. unfortunately, by the time these groups really got going, the wave of labor militancy of the early and mid-1970's was fading.


I am of the opinion that any sort of organized "peoples war" is damn near impossible now in this country.Why are people talking about "peoples war," instead of revolution. Any kind of Maoist strategy in the US would lead to disaster. Such strategies abandon class struggle in the workplace.


The advent of surveillance technology has made organizing undetected virtually impossible; in the way of organizing on a large scale which would be required for a "peoples war." The key word there is undetected. Most of what you say, write, buy, and do is being observed in this and other countries. Don't ever forget that. Thought crimes like Orwell writes of aren't a reality quite yet, but you better believe that criterion are in place to observe your behavior in many many many different ways.Correct. Any kind of clandestine military-style operations on a large-scale would be smashed, above and beyond whether or not they are a good idea in the first place, which they aren't.


War against who? is my real question... the US government? what that really equates to is war against the US military. "all threats foreign and domestic." that's their code and they WILL uphold it. The cops have no problem brutalizing and murdering civilians every damn day of the week. what makes you think a US soldier would neglect his duty by NOT putting down an uprising? The face of warfare has changed as well, you must realise....the funding and tech that goes into the US war machine is unfathomable.This is why the only alternative is organizing in the workplaces. The only way to defeat the US military is politically and from within. Look at what was done by the Bolsheviks. Revolutionaries infiltrated the Russian army, and whole units went over to the revolution. They never engaged in any kind of large-scale confrontation with government forces. When they finally had to do this, during the civil war, it ultimately destroyed the revolution by killing its best people, sapping its energy, destroying its material resources.


I have worked around enough defense contractors, government agencies, etc. to know that if it's toe to toe, you don't stand a chance.Carve this over the doorway of anyone with US (or any other advanced industrial country) urban or rural guerrilla fantasies.


The "real" war, the only feasible one in my mind, is in the hearts of men and women across this nation now. We must all battle on the only frontline at which we can be triumphant.And that frontline will be in the workplaces.

RED DAVE

[Dimentio]

Thousands of armed right-wing groups in America?

Is that really how the American political environment is portrayed in Sweden?

According to the ADL, there are about 900 militia groups in America or something, most of them right-wing and anti-government.

[Red Bayonet]

The Weather Underground, SLA,BLA, and George Jackson Brigades were little more than Narodniks, operating without an above ground mass movement.
Do not confuse narodnikism with an underground resistance movement, nor underground operations with guerilla warfare.
There is no such thing as urban guerilla warfare.
The Underground operates in the city.
The Guerilla Force operates from the sanctuary of the Redoubt.
Neither can come into being of their own accord
They MUST be the product of the above ground mass movement.

[MarxistMan]

i have great faith in most americans. The thing is that the USA is not at a revolutionary stage, and socialism ideology needs to be more mainstream, like for example thru creation of a TV socialist channel, or thru more investment in leftist TV channels like Free Speech TV. But the ideology of socialism in USA needs to be more mainstream, and less alternative, i mean more popularized. The thing is that right now the airways are highjacked by CNN, FOX news and the corporate zionist media. So i really know how can we destroy the hegemony of CNN, FOX, Univision and the brainwashing TV

.


How plausible does it sound if guerrilla groups within the U.S. were to establish base areas within the Native American reservations. I believe the Native Americans would enjoy the thougths of marxism based on their communal background and American oppression. What are your thoughts? Are there any other potentially revolutionary groups within America's countryside?

[Red Bayonet]

The Guerilla Force operates in remote, wilderness areas called Redoubts. It cannot survive without the Underground, which operates in the cities. Neither can spring up of their own accord.The above-ground Mass Movement must come first.
The redoubts are the strongholds of whoever claims them.
So-called right-wing militias are not as numerous, nor necessarily 'right' oriented as they seem. Most of their members are simply people disturbed by ever more restrictive gun laws (as we ALL should be).

[red cat]

The Guerilla Force operates in remote, wilderness areas called Redoubts. It cannot survive without the Underground, which operates in the cities. Neither can spring up of their own accord.The above-ground Mass Movement must come first.
The redoubts are the strongholds of whoever claims them.
So-called right-wing militias are not as numerous, nor necessarily 'right' oriented as they seem. Most of their members are simply people disturbed by ever more restrictive gun laws (as we ALL should be).

Are you talking specifically about the USA, or are you generalizing for all countries ?

[Red_Struggle]

Guerilla warfare in the US would be bloody as all hell, no matter who is carrying it out.

The state is armed to the teeth and I'm sure a good number of soldiers would be more than happy to knock off a few leftists in the name of "freedom" and the good ol' US of A. America is the bastion of world reaction and imperialism, and its numerous nazi and white nationalist parties, the minutemen, and the republican and libertarian, and tea parties parties only add to the reaction. Americans have been indoctrinated with anti-Communist lies for 80 plus years.

[Omsk]

America is still not a good terrein for a revolution,considering what 'Red strggle' said,that would be a bloodbath. Not to mention the US military,which is,although i dont like mentioning that,currently the strongest military force in the world.

The state is armed to the teeth
And very aggressive,+ they all share the common propaganda created picture of socialist's and communist's as blood-thirsty maniac's who like to drink vodka and end life.

I'm sure a good number of soldiers would be more than happy to knock off a few leftists in the name of "freedom"
Their father's gladly did that in Vietnam,so i am sure at least a bit of that is transferred to these young men.

America is the bastion of world reaction and imperialism
True.

Americans have been indoctrinated with anti-Communist lies for 80 plus years.
Not to mention that the propaganda is really good.And it has its branches in both the film industry,and video-game industry (in the recent years,the amount of anti-socialist and anti-communist games it huge)

[MarxistMan]

You are right about the HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, The Movie Channel, and all Hollywood Movie Industries of spreading anti-Castro, anti-leftist ideology in their movies, not directly but they are very smart at throwing in the middle of movies anti-Castro, anti-leftist jokes.

Because I remember a movie i saw about an apocalyptic plague and monster flyes around a city, and some guy said an anti-Castro joke totally un-related to the film which was not about politics at all but about an action horror film. And I also read some article in http://www.tomdispatch.com by Tom Engelheart who is a specialist in US Military affairs like Chalmers Johnson. Who said The Pentagon is co-owner of many Hollywood movie corporations, and that many of The Hollywood movies are literally propaganda for The Pentagon, like Top Gun, Transformers, Saving Private Ryan, We were Soldiers, Independence Day, etc.

.


Not to mention that the propaganda is really good.And it has its branches in both the film industry,and video-game industry (in the recent years,the amount of anti-socialist and anti-communist games it huge)

[MarxistMan]

Hello my friend. Don't never say that any thing is impossible. You can even reach the moon if you desire it real bad. That's what little Ernesto said when he was a child. He said that we shouldn't say that this or that is impossible. I leave you with a famous phrase about The Superman, we need socialist supermen:

"Behold, I teach you the Superman. Man is something that should be overcome. What have you done to overcome him? All creatures hitherto have created something beyond themselves: and do you want to be the ebb of the great tide, and return to the animals rather than overcome man? What is the ape to men? A laughing stock or a painful embarassment. And just so shall man be to the Superman: a laughing stock or a painful embarassment." -Thus Spoke Zarathustra


.



Guerilla warfare in the US would be bloody as all hell, no matter who is carrying it out.

The state is armed to the teeth and I'm sure a good number of soldiers would be more than happy to knock off a few leftists in the name of "freedom" and the good ol' US of A. America is the bastion of world reaction and imperialism, and its numerous nazi and white nationalist parties, the minutemen, and the republican and libertarian, and tea parties parties only add to the reaction. Americans have been indoctrinated with anti-Communist lies for 80 plus years.

[Jose Gracchus]

The Tea Party is basically an apparatus for preparing Freikorps for later use.