Anyone else find this offensive? [Archive]

Jazzratt

27th May 2010, 13:33

It's extremely offensive. Just the use of a black person in that position as part of a game is disgusting. Remember what happens if the arrow misses. If you miss, you can see the black person hang. Fun and games for the kiddies.

RED DAVE

Uh. I think the fact that failure results in someone dying is a disincentive to miss. Maybe there's some weirdo out there that only saves white people (and thus would only reach the third level or something) but you're talking about the consequence of failure as if it's the whole point of the exercise.

I think a little context is necessary. Are the people committing the hanging actually white?

The game doesn't specify. It seems to take place in some sort of nightmarish netherworld where people just end up hanging, presumably by the will of some malign entity. The only hope in this horrific helscape is the beneficence and skill of a disembodied bow of questionable skill.

RED DAVE

27th May 2010, 16:56

jake williams

27th May 2010, 17:15

RED DAVE

27th May 2010, 20:03

Because, of course, black people are the only people in history to have been hanged.You are missing the point. And I wonder why.

There was at one time in this country, in living memory, a systematic campaign of terrorism (to use a modern word) against black people. And hanging was one of the principal methods.

To deny that black people have a special legitimate concern about hanging is to be ignorant of history.

RED DAVE

Mendax

27th May 2010, 20:46

Uh. I think the fact that failure results in someone dying is a disincentive to miss. Maybe there's some weirdo out there that only saves white people (and thus would only reach the third level or something) but you're talking about the consequence of failure as if it's the whole point of the exercise.

You were dead on.

On a side note in the three levels there are 5 white people hanging and only 1 Black, which quiet obviously conveys a more vilant message towards white people.

Jazzratt

27th May 2010, 21:41

I respectfully suggest that you white people are seriously in denial and need to engage in self-examination about racism.

To assume we're all white people (or indeed white people) because we think that you're wrong is stupid and offensive.

Maybe it would help if instead of coming at this from your point of view, you think of the effect of this on a black person.

RED DAVE

Again you're making the ludicrous assumption that somehow the people you are adressing can't possibly be black because naturally every single black person is mortally offended by a simulation of attempts to stop hangings. You fucking pillock.

jake williams

27th May 2010, 21:47

You are missing the point. And I wonder why.
My systematic denial of the history of racism against black people to further my white supremacist agenda?

There was at one time in this country, in living memory, a systematic campaign of terrorism (to use a modern word) against black people. And hanging was one of the principal methods.
I know.

To deny that black people have a special legitimate concern about hanging is to be ignorant of history.
I would claim almost the opposite - to claim that only black people have such a particular historical grievance is ignorant of history. There probably isn't a video game in existence which couldn't be claimed to be offensive. History is a long time and a lot of fucking awful things have happened. I'm not advocating a lack of sensitivity, but a sense of minimal sophistication. I think the gravity of the crimes of history warrants at a minimum that. Many many thousands of things happen every day in the United States that are more insensitive of the history of Southern state racism against black people, to mention only one particular chapter in the history of American racism, than this particular game.

If we want to get caught up with all of them, reading into them frankly something which has little relation to the actual game (since the goal is to save people, as has been pointed out), then a) we're not going to be able to visually depict, not just hanging, but biological warfare, machetes, guns, nuclear weapons, economic warfare, ships, and the innumerable list of weapons which have been involved in the innumerable genocides, terror campaigns, progroms etc. which litter history; and more importantly b) we won't be able to actually deal with real world problems, because we'll be caught up with fabricating stories based on media depictions. That's not to say that media depictions can't be causal factors in real problems, but I don't think that's what's at play here.

Obrero Rebelde

27th May 2010, 23:35

Anyone who can't see that the use of the black person hanging from the noose is racist IS A RACIST. Period.

Quit fucking with people's minds about this. It's goddam racist!

Jazzratt

28th May 2010, 01:06

Did you actually read the thread before making your reply or did your being only semi-literate make that too much of a challenge?

Meridian

28th May 2010, 02:01

Anyone who can't see that the use of the black person hanging from the noose is racist IS A RACIST. Period.

Quit fucking with people's minds about this. It's goddam racist!
You are wrong.

Racism can loosely be described as discrimination or prejudice based on race. Generally, I suppose you could call any motivation for any act based on an idea of 'race' as racism. In this game (have you even played it?) there are, randomly enough, people hanging from ropes. Most of the people have light skin, though some have darker. It has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself what color the skin of the people hanging is.

Would you honestly be less upset if it was only white people hanging in ropes?

The point of the game has nothing to do with race. The point of the game doesn't even have anything to do with people hanging from ropes; The point is basically to aim at the right angle, measuring the correct distance to get to the next level. There are plenty of flash games like this, almost exactly like it, where they have swapped the ropes for balloons that you need to aim at, etc. Even though the fact that people are hanging from ropes in it, the game is basically as innocent as a puppy. The intention of the game developer(s) behind adding people hanging in ropes is obviously to put the sense of pressure on the player; you need to save the hanging people before the time runs out.

It's completely ridiculous that this is even discussed seriously.

RED DAVE

28th May 2010, 04:27

To deny that black people have a special legitimate concern about hanging is to be ignorant of history.
I would claim almost the opposite - to claim that only black people have such a particular historical grievance is ignorant of history.I never said that. What i have said is that black people have a particular historical grievance that shouldn't be ignored. To ignore it, with an image like the one in the OP, is racist.

There probably isn't a video game in existence which couldn't be claimed to be offensive. History is a long time and a lot of fucking awful things have happened. I'm not advocating a lack of sensitivity, but a sense of minimal sophistication.In this case, what you're advocating is some kind of pseudo-sophistication. The world, and especially the US, is not hip enough to ignore images like the one in the OP.

I think the gravity of the crimes of history warrants at a minimum that. Many many thousands of things happen every day in the United States that are more insensitive of the history of Southern state racism against black people, to mention only one particular chapter in the history of American racism, than this particular game.True, but the case in point is this image, in this video game, which is racist.

If we want to get caught up with all of them, reading into them frankly something which has little relation to the actual game (since the goal is to save people, as has been pointed out), then a) we're not going to be able to visually depict, not just hanging, but biological warfare, machetes, guns, nuclear weapons, economic warfare, ships, and the innumerable list of weapons which have been involved in the innumerable genocides, terror campaigns, progroms etc. which litter history; and more importantly b) we won't be able to actually deal with real world problems, because we'll be caught up with fabricating stories based on media depictions. That's not to say that media depictions can't be causal factors in real problems, but I don't think that's what's at play here.All worthy of an extensive discussion, but irrelevant to this particular image. It's racist; it's insensitive.

RED DAVE

Meridian

28th May 2010, 14:05

What the hell does that picture has to do with anything? It is not representative of the game.

Play it before you start crying over racism. This is ridiculous.

S.Artesian

28th May 2010, 14:17

To assume we're all white people (or indeed white people) because we think that you're wrong is stupid and offensive.

Again you're making the ludicrous assumption that somehow the people you are adressing can't possibly be black because naturally every single black person is mortally offended by a simulation of attempts to stop hangings. You fucking pillock.

Well, let's engage in some sociological research.. All those who don't think the game is racist, please identify your "race"-- as is usually defined on those wonderful little survey forms.

White/Caucasian
African
Asian
Latino
Indigenous American
Maori
Pinoy
Aboriginal Australian

and my personal favorite, because it's the one I always select

mongrel/other.

S.Artesian

28th May 2010, 14:51

Did you actually read the thread before making your reply or did your being only semi-literate make that too much of a challenge?

I've read the thread. Nothing you've said amounts to even a little bit of a challenge.

The question was not about the game, but about the image. Yeah, showing an African person hanging by the neck is racist, and offensive, here in the US where black people were lynched as a matter of course, and are still threatened with lynching-- ever notice how those little toy nooses that show up pinned to the lockers and doors are always pinned to the doors of people of color, and not the other 90% of the US population?

Why is this even an argument? Because somebody likes the game. Or thinks, "oh it's only one black person" and the job is to save him? Who gives a fuck what the game is about.

The image conveys a very real historical practice; and a very real current threat to people of color.

RED DAVE

28th May 2010, 14:59

What the hell does that picture has to do with anything? It is not representative of the game.

Play it before you start crying over racism. This is ridiculous.It's not ridiculous. What's ridiculous is you, as a so-called leftist, are so fucking ignorant of racism, its history, its present, and the possibility that it might have a nice cozy resting place in you!

RED DAVE

Meridian

28th May 2010, 15:30

It's not ridiculous. What's ridiculous is you, as a so-called leftist, are so fucking ignorant of racism, its history, its present, and the possibility that it might have a nice cozy resting place in you!
Would you prefer if there were no people with dark skin in the game?

This topic is not about the picture in the first post. That picture is completely taken out of context. We are here discussing the game: If you have not played it, refrain from making any posts in this thread.

S.Artesian

28th May 2010, 15:38

Would you prefer if there were no people with dark skin in the game?

This topic is not about the picture in the first post. That picture is completely taken out of context. We are here discussing the game: If you have not played it, refrain from making any posts in this thread.

You're discussing the game. The original post provided a link to a picture and asked if anybody else found it, the picture, offensive.

That's a simple yes or no question with a yes or no answer.

RED DAVE

28th May 2010, 16:01

It's not ridiculous. What's ridiculous is you [Meridian], as a so-called leftist, are so fucking ignorant of racism, its history, its present, and the possibility that it might have a nice cozy resting place in you!
Would you prefer if there were no people with dark skin in the game?That is a red herring. The issue is this image in this game.

This topic is not about the picture in the first post.Actually, it is exactly about that picture.

That picture is completely taken out of context.Interestingly, it is the picture in the game that people are attempting to remove from its context, which is the racist history of the United States, which includes lynching. That is the proper context: not an isolated picture in a game.

We are here discussing the game: If you have not played it, refrain from making any posts in this thread.You are really trying to defend your racist attitude vis-a-vis this picture at all costs. So, fuck you. I'll stick around as long as I please to remind you and others that racism, past and present, can't be wished away. I suggest, once again Comrade, that you examine your attitude.

RED DAVE

Meridian

28th May 2010, 16:39

Please read the original post before posting in this thread.

Unless any of you want to discuss this topic I will not reply to you.

The topic is (obviously) the game in question, called 'Gibbets 2'. This is the original post of this thread, which you would have seen had you clicked on the first page of this thread:

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1457/screenshot20100522at100.png
This is a game known as Gibbets 2, where you shoot arrows at people who are being hanged so that they may be cut down. After a few levels of playing it myself, I came across the image above. I've contacted the owner of the site who hosts the programmer's game, but they haven't gotten back to me.

I think it's really offensive to anyone who may see it, but especially so to African Americans

Link to Game (http://www.notdoppler.com/gibbets2.php)

If they refuse to take it down, I'll send info to whomever hosts their servers.

The discussion revolves around the game.

However, what is never mentioned by the OP, you never "come across" any image when playing the game. That is a picture taken, out of context, of gameplay of 'Gibbits 2' (the game that, if you remember, is currently being discussed). So, unless you want to discuss a fucking screenshot, we are in fact discussing a game.

Interestingly, it is the picture in the game that people are attempting to remove from its context
Read what I wrote above. There is no picture, it's a screenshot of the game.

You are really trying to defend your racist attitude vis-a-vis this picture at all costs. So, fuck you. I'll stick around as long as I please to remind you and others that racism, past and present, can't be wished away. I suggest, once again Comrade, that you examine your attitude.
I am an anti-racist, you idiot. Had this been a picture, without a context (IE. had it not been a screenshot of a fucking children's game that revolved around aiming an arrow to free hanging people (with various skin tones)), that popped up on the internet, I would be the first to call it racist.

Meanwhile, actual racism is occurring pretty much everywhere else...

RED DAVE

28th May 2010, 16:59

I am an anti-racist, you idiot.I am far from an idiot, and you will have to go a long way before you know as much about anti-racism, or have had the experiences that I have had. You are fucking around, consciously or unconsciously, with imagery of which you obviously have very little knowledge. If you did, you would know that there is no way for such an image not to be racist in the USA in 2010. It carries its own context. Grow up. Racism is a lot older than you are.

Had this been a picture, without a context (IE. had it not been a screenshot of a fucking children's game that revolved around aiming an arrow to free hanging people (with various skin tones)), that popped up on the internet, I would be the first to call it racist.So you have taken Step 1. But you need to realize that such an image is automatically racist! There is no way, in this day and age, in this country, to use it in a nonracist way.

What happens if the child fails to "free" the hanging person? Then the child is treated to an image right out of "Strange Fruit"!

Meanwhile, actual racism is occurring pretty much everywhere else...No argument there, but racism appears in many guises. You missed this one.

RED DAVE

ChrisK

28th May 2010, 17:25

So you have taken Step 1. But you need to realize that such an image is automatically racist! There is no way, in this day and age, in this country, to use it in a nonracist way.

Now, I know you've been a revolutionary for longer than I've been alive, but you seem to be calling something racist that is just a game. Sure, the image carries an implicit racism and is certainly insenstive to the history of lynchings, but I don't think this makes the game a racist one. If anything, it makes the developer ignorant of how black people might feel about seeing the image.

Meridian

28th May 2010, 17:38

You are fucking around, consciously or unconsciously, with imagery of which you obviously have very little knowledge. If you did, you would know that there is no way for such an image not to be racist in the USA in 2010. It carries its own context. Grow up. Racism is a lot older than you are.
1) I am not fucking around with any imagery (unlike the author of the original post). 2) I don't live in USA.

3) I am aware that the picture in the first post is racist in the US in 2010. However, the internet is not an area located in the US; it is international. Besides, as said, the picture is taken out of context from the game. The picture is pretty much contrary to what the game is about. Anyone who played the game would be unable to seriously claim that it condones lynching, or really, that it has anything to do with lynching at all.

So you have taken Step 1. But you need to realize that such an image is automatically racist! There is no way, in this day and age, in this country, to use it in a nonracist way.
Tell that to the author of the original post who (presumably) took that picture. You also keep saying "in this country", but, unless I am mistaken, this is not a national forum.

revolution inaction

28th May 2010, 17:39

This is really stupid, if this game having black people as well as white people being hung (who you hae to rescue to play the game) is racist then then the same logic every game where you fight nazis is fascist because they are all full of swastikas.

RED DAVE

28th May 2010, 18:02

I continue to be shocked by the ignorance of racism being displayed on this thread.

Comrades, grow the fuck up and stop using your generation or nation to judge the image! The presence of such an image in a game is racist! Year and nation don't count in this case. The hanging of a black person on a tree is a universal symbol of racist oppression all over the world and especially in the West for the past 150 years or so. For such an image to be used in a game is racism.

Get fucking educated. Or, if you need a quick education, take the image into a bar tonight and ask some black people what they think of it.

RED DAVE

S.Artesian

28th May 2010, 18:41

Meridian

28th May 2010, 18:42

The hanging of a black person on a tree is a universal symbol of racist oppression all over the world and especially in the West for the past 150 years or so. For such an image to be used in a game is racism.

Get fucking educated. Or, if you need a quick education, take the image into a bar tonight and ask some black people what they think of it.
But... But... I went over this last post!

The picture is a screenshot. We can discuss the picture by its own, but would that be very interesting? If we found it to be racist, then we would have to blame the original poster, because (presumably) she or he took the picture and chose what to include. The point with this topic was that it was a screenshot from an actual game.

It is pointless to discuss the screenshot by itself. Given a satisfying context -- ie., actually playing the game in its entirety (which I did because I found it mildly entertaining), we will realize that the game has nothing to do with racism. It seems the game developer tried to appear as 'race neutral' as possible by including people with various skin tones. It would be more discriminatory if the game only contained, say, white or black people. Then it would be racist.

That was why I asked if you would prefer if it was only white people hanging.

If we play the game we realize that most people that are 'hanging' in the game are not black. So it can not be the case that it is racist towards black people. Avoiding having black people in the game would be idiocy; even if the intentions were good it would still be more racist than having people with various skin tones (making color a non-issue, that is, of course, until someone is ignorant enough to actually react to it).

MilkmanofHumanKindness

28th May 2010, 18:56

I am incredibly confused. Perhaps this is because I don't put much stock in race, and try to see all people equally, regardless of heritage or background.

While we are discussing the image in the game, as many people have pointed out, every WWII shooter where you fight Nazi Germany is a Fascist game because there is the image of a swastika in the game.

The image, does not make the game racist. Now the image of a black person being hung, is of course racist, only in a certain context. Now if the game before you began playing had a introduction saying, "The KKK has hung a bunch of black people, go shoot them in the face with an arrow." I would call the game racist.

As is, we see both White and Black individuals being hung, both in need of rescue. That's not racist, it's the reality of capitalism, people of all races are oppressed.

S.Artesian

28th May 2010, 18:59

But... But... I went over this last post!

The picture is a screenshot. We can discuss the picture by its own, but would that be very interesting? If we found it to be racist, then we would have to blame the original poster, because (presumably) she or he took the picture and chose what to include. The point with this topic was that it was a screenshot from an actual game.

It is pointless to discuss the screenshot by itself. Given a satisfying context -- ie., actually playing the game in its entirety (which I did because I found it mildly entertaining), we will realize that the game has nothing to do with racism. It seems the game developer tried to appear as 'race neutral' as possible by including people with various skin tones. It would be more discriminatory if the game only contained, say, white or black people. Then it would be racist.

That was why I asked if you would prefer if it was only white people hanging.

If we play the game we realize that most people that are 'hanging' in the game are not black. So it can not be the case that it is racist towards black people. Avoiding having black people in the game would be idiocy; even if the intentions were good it would still be more racist than having people with various skin tones (making color a non-issue, that is, of course, until someone is ignorant enough to actually react to it).

Tell you what, take all the pictures into a bar say in Brooklyn [not Park Slope, or Carroll Gardens, please] or in South Central LA-- all the pictures, and see what kind of response you get.

I bet I know what it will be, and I wouldn't want to be you when what goes around comes around-- I don't care how "race neutral" the game tries to be.

Meridian

28th May 2010, 19:20

Tell you what, take all the pictures into a bar say in Brooklyn [not Park Slope, or Carroll Gardens, please] or in South Central LA-- all the pictures, and see what kind of response you get.

I bet I know what it will be, and I wouldn't want to be you when what goes around comes around-- I don't care how "race neutral" the game tries to be.
What the fuck do you mean by "all" the pictures? It's a game, not a god damn picture collection. Also: Why should I go to the US and show anyone anything? What kind of argument is that? You go to, say, Brazil and ask if they think it's a fun game. Why? Because I say so. That's an equally 'valid' argument.

Play the fucking game and come back here and talk about how racist it is that there isn't only white peoplein this game that you are supposed to rescue. Go talk to the (probably tens of-) thousands, many of whom, I can assure you, is black, who has played this game and tell them not to play it because it's racist. Please.

Get over yourselves.

I am incredibly confused. Perhaps this is because I don't put much stock in race, and try to see all people equally, regardless of heritage or background.

While we are discussing the image in the game, as many people have pointed out, every WWII shooter where you fight Nazi Germany is a Fascist game because there is the image of a swastika in the game.

The image, does not make the game racist. Now the image of a black person being hung, is of course racist, only in a certain context. Now if the game before you began playing had a introduction saying, "The KKK has hung a bunch of black people, go shoot them in the face with an arrow." I would call the game racist.

As is, we see both White and Black individuals being hung, both in need of rescue. That's not racist, it's the reality of capitalism, people of all races are oppressed.
Agreed.

S.Artesian

28th May 2010, 20:26

Meridian

28th May 2010, 21:13

Why would I waste a fucking second of my time with this fucking game? It's enough of a waste pointing out the historical context surrounding the image of a black person being hung in a, mostly, non-black universe, which the internet most certainly is.
Then don't post here, because this topic is not about some imaginary "image", it is about the game called Gibbets 2. If you haven't tried it you can not accuse it of being racist. There is no historical context in the game because the game is NOT about lynching or hanging people. It's about aiming your arrow correctly so that you hit the rope from which people hang. In other words, it has more to do with Robin Hood than US history. Skin color has absolutely no role in this game.

I'm sure a game showing the SS liquidating communists, Roma, gays, Jews wouldn't be considered offensive by teen age boys in China or Singapore. Doesn't change the content, and the meaning of the image.
Hey, here's a tip: Stop talking out of your ass. Since you have not played the game you are not in a position to discuss this subject. You demonstrate now that you have no idea what this game is like, but that doesn't stop you from making extreme allegories. Stop using radicalism as an excuse for being plainly wrong.

Comrade_Scott

28th May 2010, 21:24

I respectfully suggest that you white people are seriously in denial and need to engage in self-examination about racism.

Maybe it would help if instead of coming at this from your point of view, you think of the effect of this on a black person.

RED DAVE

calm down i personally don't feel offended. as others have said 1. the object of the game is to free the persons and 2. not all the characters are black.

as a black man in what is still a pretty racist country (bad people are still refferd to as dutty niggas etc) this is not offensive in the least and if a black person was offended by that then they really have not experienced anything near real racism. and again it all depends on the context if it were all blacks then yes i would be offended but its not so hey im not

S.Artesian

28th May 2010, 21:27

Then don't post here, because this topic is not about some imaginary "image", it is about the game called Gibbets 2. If you haven't tried it you can not accuse it of being racist. There is no historical context in the game because the game is NOT about lynching or hanging people. It's about aiming your arrow correctly so that you hit the rope from which people hang. In other words, it has more to do with Robin Hood than US history. Skin color has absolutely no role in this game.

Hey, here's a tip: Stop talking out of your ass. Since you have not played the game you are not in a position to discuss this subject. You demonstrate now that you have no idea what this game is like, but that doesn't stop you from making extreme allegories. Stop using radicalism as an excuse for being plainly wrong.

thanks for the tip; here's one back. Go fuck yourself and play your silly games somewhere else.

And I mean that in the nicest way possible.

Robin Hood, my dying ass.......

Gravedigger01

28th May 2010, 21:31

S.Artesian

28th May 2010, 21:47

I played the game.It has people people of all ethnicities so I don't find it offensive.Its like South Park.I don't find South Park racist because they rip on everyone rather than focusing on one particualtr group

I thought the same thing... that it reminded me of South Park and I find South Park offensive and racist as hell.

Meridian

28th May 2010, 22:27

thanks for the tip; here's one back. Go fuck yourself and play your silly games somewhere else.

And I mean that in the nicest way possible.

Robin Hood, my dying ass.......
Your anger amuses me. I would find it even more amusing if that brilliant post of yours landed you a penalty of some sort, because you sure do deserve it.

This is not my 'silly game'. I have pointed out many times how ridiculous this discussion is, simply because yes, it is just a flash game. Even so, that apparently does not stop you from making abusive posts in a 'silly little thread' about it.

However, when people are seriously claiming that it is racist I first ask myself whether or not it is a joke. When it seems they actually argue for it being racist, in a serious manner, without even actually having played the game themselves, I think it's worth pointing out that they are wrong.

I am not sure whether or not you are aware of this, but my Robin Hood comment referred to the scene in some Robin Hood movie where he shoots at the rope from which some people are hanging. That is the entire point of the game as well. The game is non-discriminatory simply because it does in no way revolve around lynching, race, skin color, or hurting people at all. The point of the game is to save men who are hanging from ropes. The people have different graphics, and when it comes to the color of their skin most are lighter and some are darker. The point is to save these people before the time runs out.

So I must ask again: Would you prefer if the game did not include any people with different colored skin than white?

black magick hustla

28th May 2010, 22:33

S.Artesian

28th May 2010, 22:44

Your anger amuses me. I would find it even more amusing if that brilliant post of yours landed you a penalty of some sort, because you sure do deserve it.

This is not my 'silly game'. I have pointed out many times how ridiculous this discussion is, simply because yes, it is just a flash game. Even so, that apparently does not stop you from making abusive posts in a 'silly little thread' about it.

However, when people are seriously claiming that it is racist I first ask myself whether or not it is a joke. When it seems they actually argue for it being racist, in a serious manner, without even actually having played the game themselves, I think it's worth pointing out that they are wrong.

I am not sure whether or not you are aware of this, but my Robin Hood comment referred to the scene in some Robin Hood movie where he shoots at the rope from which some people are hanging. That is the entire point of the game as well. The game is non-discriminatory simply because it does in no way revolve around lynching, race, skin color, or hurting people at all. The point of the game is to save men who are hanging from ropes. The people have different graphics, and when it comes to the color of their skin most are lighter and some are darker. The point is to save these people before the time runs out.

So I must ask again: Would you prefer if the game did not include any people with different colored skin than white?

Ooh... a threat of a penalty. I'm so scared and worried to... How old are you? Penalties? As Hudson said in Aliens.. Whoopee-fuckin'-do.

Really how old are you where after you tell somebody to quit talking out his or her ass, that somebody tells you to go fuck yourself and you think that's abusive. What-- were you raised in a test tube and fed rock candy your whole life?

I returned your tip, and in spades. I don't feel the need to go crying to a classroom monitor; to hope some mythical "points" are deducted from some ridiculous accounting mechanism.

WTF is a matter with you people? You try and command people "not to post here," like this is your private property, tell people they're talking out their ass, and then whimper like infants when you're told to fuck yourself and the silly game you rode in on.

Grow the fuck up, please.

I have no idea how many points I have and I could give a shit less.

Didn't you get enough of high school when you were in high school?

Anyway, my laundry's done. Better things to do. I'll let you know if I get any points deducted. Maybe I can trade some in on a better forum.

Meridian

28th May 2010, 23:14

i think its distasteful they use the image of a black man hanging from the noose regardless if white people also get hung in the game because i am sure the game makers knew that such an image is controversial. i dont think it is racist though, it is distasteful. this is not perpetuating the systematic oppression of black people nor it is making fun of them.
But 'they' (game developers) do not use the image. This was a screenshot that the original poster took completely out of context. Out of the people you, as a player, is meant to save from hanging, there are more white people than black people. You gotta have an agenda if you want to zoom in specifically on a single black man hanging, take a picture and present it as evidence for the game being discriminatory. There are more white people hanging in the game, though the game clearly has nothing to do with skin color or lynching.

In other words, I could take a screenshot of a game where you fight against nazis, that included only the swastika and a person saluting and present it as evidence of the game being discriminatory, and it would be very similar to this case.

WTF is a matter with you people? You try and command people "not to post here," like this is your private property, tell people they're talking out their ass, and then whimper like infants when you're told to fuck yourself and the silly game you rode in on.

Grow the fuck up, please.

I have no idea how many points I have and I could give a shit less.

Didn't you get enough of high school when you were in high school?

Anyway, my laundry's done. Better things to do. I'll let you know if I get any points deducted. Maybe I can trade some in on a better forum.
I have no idea what 'points' you are talking about. However, you are incapable of arguing your case. Do so, or leave, was my suggestion. As of now, your posts contain nothing but garbage that is cluttering up this thread. And you tell me to "grow up".... Priceless what you have to resort to when your argument fails.

RED DAVE

29th May 2010, 00:05

MilkmanofHumanKindness

29th May 2010, 01:14

The image is reflective of a racist past in a racist country.

If you jive-ass so-called leftists, including the comrade from Jamaica, do not understand that, then you need some education in racism, what it is and how to fight it.

Bizarre that you can look at the image of a black man with a rope around his neck and think it's not racist.

See you-all on a sit-in, a freedom ride or a march on Washington, unless of course you're too busy watching a black man maybe being hung.

RED DAVE

I think this has less to do with the game actually being discriminatory, or racist. Discrimination, by definition is "containing or implying a slight or showing prejudice"* this game is not discriminating or showing any prejudice as every race is represented being hung.

To claim that I'm not truly "Leftist" because I'm not offended by a game in which the goal is to rescue people of all color from death, I think is a tad bit silly if not politically naive.

Is a game racist, if it shows a Swastika, as that is an image of hatred to different groups?

To call a a game, which typically flashes 60 frames before your eyes a second, racist based on one image is silly. The image of a black man being hung, I will not deny is a racist one only if that is the only image within context. Is a civil rights museum racist because it may contain images of police brutality against black people? Obviously not, it's taken within context.

In this context we are rescuing people from death, the game doesn't just say "Sit and watch a black man be hung." The game tells us to go rescue him.

Intent, and context define the image's meaning and implication.

Also, could you explain what racism is, and how to fight it? Because we clearly have different interpretations of racism, and I'd like to see you're understanding of it.

RED DAVE

29th May 2010, 01:41

This will do for openers:

... the term racism usually denotes race-based prejudice, violence, dislike, discrimination, or oppression ... .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

RED DAVE

MilkmanofHumanKindness

29th May 2010, 01:46

This will do for openers:

RED DAVE

Correct we both agree, but the violence is clearly not based on race. As evidenced by the many races that are hung.

Once again, I'll restate some unanswered points:

Is a game racist, if it shows a Swastika, as that is an image of hatred to different groups?

To call a a game, which typically flashes 60 frames before your eyes a second, racist based on one image is silly. The image of a black man being hung, I will not deny is a racist one only if that is the only image within context. Is a civil rights museum racist because it may contain images of police brutality against black people? Obviously not, it's taken within context.

In this context we are rescuing people from death, the game doesn't just say "Sit and watch a black man be hung." The game tells us to go rescue him.

Intent, and context define the image's meaning and implication.

RED DAVE

29th May 2010, 03:53

Correct we both agree, but the violence is clearly not based on race. As evidenced by the many races that are hung.How naive are you? Is there any other group in the 20th Century, especially in the West, against who lynching was used as a systematic act of terror?

Once again, I'll restate some unanswered points:I can hardly wait.

Is a game racist, if it shows a Swastika, as that is an image of hatred to different groups?Except in a war context, yes. If, for example, a swastika is used as a piece of background wallpaper, that's racism. The swastika, like a black person with a rope around their neck, carries its own context.

To call a a game, which typically flashes 60 frames before your eyes a second, racist based on one image is silly.In your opinion.

The image of a black man being hung, I will not deny is a racist oneOnay.

only if that is the only image within context.The image carries the contet of racist violence against black people.

Is a civil rights museum racist because it may contain images of police brutality against black people? Obviously not, it's taken within context.Here, the context of the museum and the context of the image are appropriate.

In this context we are rescuing people from death, the game doesn't just say "Sit and watch a black man be hung." The game tells us to go rescue him.And if the black man is not rescued, he is hung. And since there is no other ethnic group against who lynching was used systematically ... .

IntentWhich we don't know, but which we have the right to qwuestion.

and contextWhich is supplied by the image itself.

define the image's meaning and implication.And its racist.

Suppose we had a game claaed "Rescue 'Em From Auschwitz," complete with swastikas, and you got a chance to rescue a Jew, a Rom, a homosexual and a Communist (all of who were gassed) from a gas chamber, and if youfailed they were gassed, would it be correctg to call this antisemitic, as your 12-year-old watches a Jew being gassed?

RED DAVE

MilkmanofHumanKindness

29th May 2010, 04:10

How naive are you? Is there any other group in the 20th Century, especially in the West, against who lynching was used as a systematic act of terror?
RED DAVE

The Jews. (Can't post link, go to Wikipedia, lynching, and lynching in Europe)

Also, the point still stands that by definition, it can not be discriminatory or prejudiced as the violence that occurs is not based on racism. This is an objective fact, as evidenced by the fact that all races are hung. Would it be a better game if every race was hung, except for Blacks?

Except in a war context, yes. If, for example, a swastika is used as a piece of background wallpaper, that's racism. The swastika, like a black person with a rope around their neck, carries its own context.
RED DAVE

Okay. The image of the black man being hung is not a background wallpaper, but rather in the context of someone suffering and needing rescue.

The image carries the contet of racist violence against black people.
RED DAVE

Yes, the image itself does. Just as the swastika in the war game carries the content of racist violence. But it ceases to be racist, when a multitude of various other races are hung.

]
And if the black man is not rescued, he is hung. And since there is no other ethnic group against who lynching was used systematically ... .
RED DAVE

Yes, but the game's goal is to rescue people. If you fail the game, the individual dies. You try to rescue everyone, that's the only way to pass the level, there is no exclusion of black people being rescued.

Suppose we had a game claaed "Rescue 'Em From Auschwitz," complete with swastikas, and you got a chance to rescue a Jew, a Rom, a homosexual and a Communist (all of who were gassed) from a gas chamber, and if youfailed they were gassed, would it be correctg to call this antisemitic, as your 12-year-old watches a Jew being gassed?
RED DAVE

I honestly wouldn't have a problem with that. I'd think kind of "edgy" and immoral for using the Holocaust as entertainment, but certainly not racist.

As long as the focus of the game was upon rescuing everyone, I wouldn't have a problem. Now if it said, "Choose which one is worthy of life." There would be a huge difference.

GreenCommunism

29th May 2010, 04:23

what if you killed germans during the game and had graphical violence such as bloods and brains splastered all over the walls would it be better?

I honestly wouldn't have a problem with that. I'd think kind of "edgy" and immoral for using the Holocaust as entertainment, but certainly not racist.

As long as the focus of the game was upon rescuing everyone, I wouldn't have a problem. Now if it said, "Choose which one is worthy of life." There would be a huge difference.

schindler's list and the pianist are immoral movies if we think that way.

i think south park's episode about the racist flag brings up good points about the discussion. in the end they reach a compromise where there is a black man in the crowd which hang another black man. thus the crime is not racist since there is a black man in the side of those who lynch. if we could see the character launching the arrow, should he be white or black? or if for example the game had only black person being hanged, and the character who shot those arrows was black. wouldn't it be more acceptable? though i agree with maldoror that it is somewhat disdainful, i personally have a high tolerance for unsensitive and disgusting stuff so i would probably play the game anyway. i try to change though.

MilkmanofHumanKindness

29th May 2010, 04:33

what if you killed germans during the game and had graphical violence such as bloods and brains splastered all over the walls would it be better?\

Uhhh, what? I suppose a war game would generally aim towards graphical violence, and that's an acceptable use of racist symbols to Red Dave.

schindler's list and the pianist are immoral movies if we think that way.

Well, in many ways they are. They take a great human tragedy and then use it to sell movies. I thought both were very artistic and were meant to educate rather than just provide a popcorn flick.

i think south park's episode about the racist flag brings up good points about the discussion. in the end they reach a compromise where there is a black man in the crowd which hang another black man. thus the crime is not racist since there is a black man in the side of those who lynch. if we could see the character launching the arrow, should he be white or black? or if for example the game had only black person being hanged, and the character who shot those arrows was black. wouldn't it be more acceptable? though i agree with maldoror that it is somewhat disdainful, i personally have a high tolerance for unsensitive and disgusting stuff so i would probably play the game anyway. i try to change though.

I'd argue that race should be ambiguous for the rescuer, if the character shooting were white, I could see legitimate concerns about racism. If it were black, I don't think that problem would be there.

In many ways I view the nooses and gibbets as being the oppression and choking force of the Capitalist system, and the arrows fired as being revolutionary aimed at eliminating the oppression and death inherent in Capitalism.

RED DAVE

29th May 2010, 04:40

MilkmanofHumanKindness

29th May 2010, 04:51

Look, Comrades, let me put it as baldly as I can.

• Using the image of a black man with a rope around his neck is per se racist.

• The fact that he can be rescued is irrelevant. It's still racist.

• The fact that there are other races is irrlevant. It's still racist.

I think that you-all, as a group, generation, what have you, of game players, don't understand this, demonstrates that you need some serious education about racism.

RED DAVE

1. I agree. If it were just a photo of a black man being hung, it would be racist. Perhaps you don't understand what a "video game" is. It's much like animation or television, in that it is made up of many, many images being flashed at the individual forming a coherent story. To take one image out of the long stream and saying, "This is racist." would be like watching Schindler's List, and finding an image where Jews are being sent to a Concentration Camp, and state that it's a racist movie. Even though the ending and purpose of the movie is about rescuing the Jews.

2. I don't think so, you have yet to adequately explain why it is racist. If the introduction to the game said, "Heh, heh, look at those blacks hang, now go rescue all white people." The game would be racist. Clearly he is supposed to be rescued.

3.I asked for education. You just sent me a link flippantly. Please educate me, or at least point out why I'm incorrect. Seriously, educate me.

RED DAVE

29th May 2010, 06:35

• Using the image of a black man with a rope around his neck is per se racist.
1. I agree. If it were just a photo of a black man being hung, it would be racist. Perhaps you don't understand what a "video game" is.I'm totally ignorant. Please enlighten me.

It's much like animation or television, in that it is made up of many, many images being flashed at the individual forming a coherent story.No kidding. Is it like a nickelodeon?

To take one image out of the long stream and saying, "This is racist." would be like watching Schindler's List, and finding an image where Jews are being sent to a Concentration Camp, and state that it's a racist movie. Even though the ending and purpose of the movie is about rescuing the Jews.It's a false analogy because Schindler's List is a long, detailed movie, whose anti-nazi purpose is quite obvious. It may have, like most moves, an entertainment purpose, but it also has a clear message.

The video game that contains the OP image has no "message"! It's purpose is entertainment.

Above and beyond this, the message of a black man with a rope around his neck is so powerful that it is, in my opinion, impossible to present this image without its racist meaning being evoked.

• The fact that he can be rescued is irrelevant. It's still racist.
2. I don't think so, you have yet to adequately explain why it is racist. If the introduction to the game said, "Heh, heh, look at those blacks hang, now go rescue all white people." The game would be racist. Clearly he is supposed to be rescued.Comrade, the very fact that the image is presented for your delectation and amusement is racist. As I said above, the power of this image is such that it cannot be used in a "neutral" way. Maybe you're not old enough to appreciate this, but history did not being with you (or me). This image has a long and horrendous history. It can't be sanitized, and to even try is racist.

• The fact that there are other races is irrlevant. It's still racist.
3.I asked for education. You just sent me a link flippantly. Please educate me, or at least point out why I'm incorrect. Seriously, educate me.Begin with the above. Then read Before the Mayflower (http://www.amazon.com/Before-Mayflower-History-America-Revised/dp/0140178228). It will do as an introduction. Hopefully, you've already read People's History of the United States (http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html).

RED DAVE

GreenCommunism

29th May 2010, 08:59

i think the image is shocking, not racist. the point of the game is not to instill racism. it wasn't the goal of the designer and it simply does not happen in people. i understand it shocked you. but why can't you understand that the goal of the game is not to hang people but to save them, and a black guy only comes in after the third or fourth level. it makes a whole lot of difference and the lenght of the movie or the video games makes no difference.

I'd argue that race should be ambiguous for the rescuer, if the character shooting were white, I could see legitimate concerns about racism. If it were black, I don't think that problem would be there.

if he was white it would be similar to pocahontas where the white guy saves the other ethnicities because they can't save themselves without a white person. if the character was black he would simply be saving other blacks from the kkk and there would be no discussion whether this is racist or not.

Meridian

29th May 2010, 10:37

Two lasts points before I wave this forum farewell:

Don't discuss this topic judging from the picture in the first post. Again, that is just a screenshot taken by the original poster where she/he has zoomed in on a particular element in the game. If we found it to be offensive we would have to blame the original poster, because he/she is the author of that picture and chose to misrepresent the game so badly that it looks like it's about lynching black people.

How naive are you? Is there any other group in the 20th Century, especially in the West, against who lynching was used as a systematic act of terror?
That is your 'subjective' view, as, I presume, an American. People of other cultures will relate to completely different things, and judging by their names, the makers of this game were not American. However, don't take this as disrespect for the history of black people in America. In any case, the game has NOTHING to do with lynching, unless you can prove otherwise. The picture presented in the first post is taken strategically to show exactly a single black man being hung from a rope. But that is impossible to see in the game, there is no single frame where only a black man is (or black men are) hanging. Therefore the picture presented is in no way representative of the game.

Since there is no single frame in the game where black men are being hung but not white people, there is no possibility of this being a racist game against black people.

Since there is no single frame where black people are being hurt but not white people, there is no possibility of any supposed violence in this game to be race-based.

Again, this is not a game about hanging or lynching, it's about aiming your arrow to save whoever is hanging. The fact that they are hanging from a rope gives you a certain time limit within which you must save the people. That is taken from Robin Hood, or inspired from it, as is clearly mentioned in the game. They could have gone with all white people who you were to save, but that would have actually been racist.

Assef-2012

29th May 2010, 10:57

To Red Dave:

Successful troll is successful.:laugh:

Dimentio

29th May 2010, 12:14

Wait...

The point of this game is to save the hanging people. The hanged people have different skin tones, and clothes, etc. There is no focus on skin color whatsoever in this game. It is a-racial.

Would you seriously be less offended if there were no people with darker skin hanging? I find that to be offending.

Yes, this thread is a waste of bandwidth.

leftace53

29th May 2010, 13:39

I didn't realize this thread could get to 4 pages :blink:
Of course its not rascist, theres other colours hanging just as the black dude is.

RED DAVE

29th May 2010, 15:11

Two lasts points before I wave this forum farewell:Don't let the dorr hit you on the ass on the way out.

Don't discuss this topic judging from the picture in the first post.Why not?

Again, that is just a screenshot taken by the original poster where she/he has zoomed in on a particular element in the game.Nevertheless, the element is present and was of concern to the original poster.

If we found it to be offensive we would have to blame the original poster, because he/she is the author of that picture and chose to misrepresent the game so badly that it looks like it's about lynching black people.That is one dumb remark. The poster was devised by the game authors. They are responsible. You are blaming the whistleblower in order to defend a racist image. Pathetic!

How naive are you? Is there any other group in the 20th Century, especially in the West, against who lynching was used as a systematic act of terror?
That is your 'subjective' view, as, I presume, an American.Comrade, don't try to toss around Marxist categories when you don't know what they mean.

A vivid image that affects large numbers of people, such as an image of a black man hanging, is not subjective. If I use the parallel of a swastika, you should get it. It is an image that is so powerful that it carries its own context. It's effect is objective.

People of other cultures will relate to completely different things, and judging by their names, the makers of this game were not American.So what we're dealing with, on their part, is cross-cultural insensitivity, which is racism.

However, don't take this as disrespect for the history of black people in America.Why not? It's one of the most important facts of American history. If an American marketed a game in Chile about its economic development, and ignored the Pinochet dictatorship, we would raise hell. This is no different.

In any case, the game has NOTHING to do with lynching, unless you can prove otherwise.The game is about hanging. A black man is seen being hanged. The image of lynching is evoked.

The picture presented in the first post is taken strategically to show exactly a single black man being hung from a rope. But that is impossible to see in the game, there is no single frame where only a black man is (or black men are) hanging. Therefore the picture presented is in no way representative of the game.I am not saying that it's representative of the game. I am saying that the image is racist, in and of itself, and should not be used in such a manner.

Since there is no single frame in the game where black men are being hung but not white people, there is no possibility of this being a racist game against black people.[quote]Really dumb. The historical experience of black and whitge people in the US with regard to lynching was/is different. The two images do not have the same meaning. Leaving aside whether or not a game that shows hanging or lynching is cool in the first place, the presence of an image of a black man being hung is per se racist due to the historical associations of this image. These associations cannot be denied or broken at this time.

[QUOTE=Meridian;1759494]Since there is no single frame where black people are being hurt but not white people, there is no possibility of any supposed violence in this game to be race-based.Violence with regard to black people in the US, who are, along with Latinos, the main targets of official (police) violence, can never be divorced from the context of racism. If you do no get this, you do not understand what is at issue, and you need to learn about the history of racism, racist iconography, etc.

A
gain, this is not a game about hanging or lynching, it's about aiming your arrow to save whoever is hanging.Oh, a game about someone being saved from lynching is not about lynching. Dumb!

The fact that they are hanging from a rope gives you a certain time limit within which you must save the people. That is taken from Robin Hood, or inspired from it, as is clearly mentioned in the game. They could have gone with all white people who you were to save, but that would have actually been racist.Don't get cute and try to flip it.

One more time: given the history of racism in the US, the Caribbean, Latin America, etc., the image of a black man being hung, whether or not he can be rescued is an image that evokes the racist past vividly. To use such an image as part of something as trivial as a video game is racism.

RED DAVE

Meridian

29th May 2010, 15:26

Anyone who considers this to be racist shows zero respect for the history and current situation of African Americans.

This is not racism. Anyone who has played this game fucking knows that this is an attempt to include diversity in a fucking flash game.

The question remains: Would you prefer if there were no black people in this game?

Don't discuss this topic judging from the picture in the first post.

Why not?
... Congratulations on making the most stupid comment in RevLeft history.

Dimentio

29th May 2010, 15:30

RED DAVE

29th May 2010, 16:55

I don't think the game is sold, its more like an online game made by bored programming students. Moreover, I don't think the image above is an official image but a screenshot. In that game, people of all creeds and colours are hung.

It is about as disasteful as Stag Knight 2, where you play a psychopathic knight who cuts open Boy Scouts, of which some are clearly coloured and Jewish. But its not because of "racism" it is disasteful. Rather, it is because of the nihilistic theme.Still trying to get away from the fact that the depictiion of a black person being hung is qualititatively different from that of, say, a white person.

Learn some history. Learn from history. What you (or anyone else) "think," in the absence of study and in the absence of participation in a movement is subjectivity. What is the basis of your thoughts? What have you learned? Where did you learn it. What have you done to put your thoughts to a test?

As far as I can tell, not one person who has replied that the image in the OP is not racist has any history of organized opposition to racism. Correct me if I'm wrong.

RED DAVE

Panda Tse Tung

29th May 2010, 17:35

Hangings in general can be regarded as offensive.
Anyway why dont we start by defining racism before discussing what is and what is not racist. RED DAVE himself has stated wikipedia as a source so i'll quote them:

According to the Oxford English Dictionary (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary), racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups. [2] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_note-Minorities.2C_Race.2C_and_Genomics-1)

The authors of the game dont seem to show this certain characteristic.

Edit: I'd like to add that it can be argued that it is extremely insulting. Just not racist.
That is you dont make games where you save people from gass-chambers which happens to include jews.
Though hangings and shooting someone down from a rope is a more movie-ish thing and therefore imho less offensive then that.

RED DAVE

29th May 2010, 17:58

Hangings in general can be regarded as offensive.Comrade, that's a pretty fucking weak word. How about understanding that lynching was a major political tool of the ruling class in the US for about 100 years? That's a little more than "offensive." It's downright inflammatory, provocative and racist.

Anyway why dont we start by defining racism before discussing what is and what is not racist. RED DAVE himself has stated wikipedia as a source so i'll quote them:
According to the Oxford English Dictionary (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary), racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups.
The authors of the game dont seem to show this certain characteristic.The authors of the game have used a prime symbol of racism, a hanging black man, as an image in a game, ignoring the history and effect of this symbol. That's racism.

Edit: I'd like to add that it can be argued that it is extremely insulting. Just not racist.I guess, Comrade, you don't know what constitutes racist acts and what doesn't.

That is you dont make games where you save people from gass-chambers which happens to include jews.That's right. You don't do that. To do so would be antisemitic. The gas chambers are not a proper subject for a video game, where by the luck of the play, genocide happens or not. Same with the subject in case in this thread. To make the hanging of a black man subject to the whims of a video game is racism.

Though hangings and shooting someone down from a rope is a more movie-ish thing and therefore imho less offensive then that.It's still racism and it's extremely offensive.

RED DAVE

GreenCommunism

29th May 2010, 18:37

ah red dave i mean. come on

RED DAVE

29th May 2010, 18:55

ah red dave i mean. come onYou come on!

You call yourself an anarchist, a leftist, then start learning some history and what history, its events and symbols mean. Do you think that history conforms to the sensibilities of a bunch of video game players?

RED DAVE

RED DAVE

29th May 2010, 18:56

For those of you have forgotten, or who need an education about lynching black men in the United States, let's recall an incident that happened 91 years ago this week. I suggest that people read the entire item.

The second article [in the [Tulsa Tribune, May 31, 1921], apparently an editorial, titled 'To Lynch Negro Tonight', spoke of whites assembling to lynch the teenage Rowland. It is, of course, impossible to know where the Tribune obtained information regarding the impending assembly of a lynch mob, but it is common knowledge that this paper was known at the time to have a rather 'sensationalist' style of news writing.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot

Still think that the image isn't racist?

RED DAVE

GreenCommunism

29th May 2010, 19:14

Do you think that history conforms to the sensibilities of a bunch of video game players?

you said it, video game players don't give a fuck. beside, why do you think there are movies where it is recommended that children listen to it with their parents, a proof that context is important. if you point out that some movies are 13+,16+ or 18+. i will reply that this is no slur,violence or nudity in that game.

nowhere it is written lynch a negro on that video game. it's a racist newspaper like many existed at the time and some fringe one still do.

RED DAVE

29th May 2010, 19:45

Do you think that history conforms to the sensibilities of a bunch of video game players?
you said it, video game players don't give a fuck.And this is exactly why such images are racist. They depend on the ignorance and conscious or unconscious racism of the game players.

beside, why do you think there are movies where it is recommended that children listen to it with their parents, a proof that context is important. if you point out that some movies are 13+,16+ or 18+. i will reply that this is no slur,violence or nudity in that game.An "R" rating doesn't mean "Racism."

One more time: this image is powerful enough, like a swastika to create its own context. There is no way to avoid the racist implications of the image of a black man being hanged.

nowhere it is written lynch a negro on that video game.But one is being lynched.

it's a racist newspaper like many existed at the time and some fringe one still do.And its a racist video game that permits an image like that.

RED DAVE

GreenCommunism

29th May 2010, 20:01

but you have to save the poor man. you just said that we should ban the swastika in medal of honor. i don't think any jews would be offended by killing nazis because there's a swastika flag somewhere in the game.

what is R rating? i don't come from the united states.

this is altogether another debate. but the swastika in india is not racist. this may be why we have a problem seeing this image as racist(because i come from canada). but still, you wish people of all origins were hanged in that video game and black people not be. black people need representation no matter what. else we may think they are not like just everybody.

Dimentio

29th May 2010, 20:03

That was a screenshot from said videogame. It would have been racist if only coloured people would have been depicted hung there. That is obviously not the case.

Is Stag Knight 2 also racist because one of the boy scouts who you could kill is a coloured child?

Or is Robot Unicorn Attack homophobic by the same logic?

RED DAVE

29th May 2010, 20:58

That was a screenshot from said videogame.It's a racist screenshot.

It would have been racist ifOkay, everyone, here comes Dimentio, who is a white European, with no antiracist experience and with little or no knowledge of racism in US history, giving us his definition.

only coloured peopleHate to tell you, Comrade, but, for your education, "coloured [sic] people" is considered racist in the USA.

would have been depicted hung there. That is obviously not the case.That is obvious not the case.

And it's obviously the case that your ignorance of the history of racism has led you to believe that the presence of white people being hung somehow balances out the extraordinarily powerful image of black man being lynched.

Is Stag Knight 2 also racist because one of the boy scouts who you could kill is a coloured child?Red herring. And, again for your education, the word "coloured" or "colored" as an adjective is considered racist in the US.

Or is Robot Unicorn Attack homophobic by the same logic?Red herring but possibly, considered that, in general, gays are murdered in hate crimes by straights and not the other way around.

RED DAVE

MilkmanofHumanKindness

29th May 2010, 21:07

I
Okay, everyone, here comes Dimentio, who is a white European, with no antiracist experience and with little or no knowledge of racism in US history, giving us his definition.
RED DAVE

Comrade, don't you think it's a tad bit racist to assume that an individual (based on his race) would be unable to understand racism?

RED DAVE

30th May 2010, 00:05

Okay, everyone, here comes Dimentio, who is a white European, with no antiracist experience and with little or no knowledge of racism in US history, giving us his definition.
Comrade, don't you think it's a tad bit racist to assume that an individual (based on his race) would be unable to understand racism?No I don't think it's "a tad racist," nor does my statement contain a soupcon or an iota of racism, so don't try to flip it, Comrade. The ball's in your court.

Don't forget that you guys are defending the image of black man being hung as not being racist.

Dimentio has few if any qualifications to understand racism, and it shows. His remarks here demonstrate this.

RED DAVE

GreenCommunism

30th May 2010, 00:19

what are your qualification red dave except your race? did you read books about racism more than we did? how does participating in protests against racism give you any credentials is beyond me.

you may not understand it, but all white people do not necessarily need education to be shown that racism is wrong. some of them have seen racism and i'm not talking of so called reverse racism, but they have heard other whites say and do racist things which they disapproved of. this is personally my case.

i don't understand why you don't get it that context is the most important thing in any media. an image or movie is racist if it incites to hatred toward a race. else it isn't.

what if like i said, the man who shoots the arrow was black, and everyone being hanged was black, it would be a game to save blacks from the kkk. would that still be racist? i don't understand your logic at all , the only thing i can understand is that it may be shocking.

MilkmanofHumanKindness

30th May 2010, 00:22

No I don't think it's "a tad racist," nor does my statement contain a soupcon or an iota of racism, so don't try to flip it, Comrade. The ball's in your court.

Don't forget that you guys are defending the image of black man being hung as not being racist.

Dimentio has few if any qualifications to understand racism, and it shows. His remarks here demonstrate this.

RED DAVE

1. Then why mention that he is white? What fact does that bring to the discussion unless you truly believe it is difficult or harder for people based on Race to understand racism? I'm not trying to flip anything, Comrade, I'm just confused as to your choice of words.

2. I am not defending that. If that's the big disagreement, then there is none.
Now of course, I am defending that taking a screenshot and decrying the game as racist, is silly, and naive. There are much larger problems for anti-racists, and Revolutionary Leftists to combat in the United States, then a game focusing on rescuing a variety of people from death.

3. I don't know if that's true or not true. I'm just not willing to assume because he is White and from Europe, he is incapable of understanding racism.

what are your qualification red dave except your race? did you read books about racism more than we did? how does participating in protests against racism give you any credentials is beyond me.

Now in all fairness, I am sure (at least I hope) that Red Dave is not claiming a better understanding of racism based on his race. I think he has read much of the same material we all have and has merely taken a different interpretation or understanding of the game then we have. That's fine, I have no problem with that, we can all be rational, radical Leftists but disagree over whether the flash game "Gibbets 2" is racist.

RED DAVE

30th May 2010, 01:41

[1.] No I don't think it's "a tad racist," nor does my statement contain a soupcon or an iota of racism, so don't try to flip it, Comrade. The ball's in your court.

[2.] Don't forget that you guys are defending the image of black man being hung as not being racist.

[3.] Dimentio has few if any qualifications to understand racism, and it shows. His remarks here demonstrate this.

1. Then why mention that he is white? What fact does that bring to the discussion unless you truly believe it is difficult or harder for people based on Race to understand racism? I'm not trying to flip anything, Comrade, I'm just confused as to your choice of words.Yes, Comrade I "truly believe" the plain and simple fact that a it is more difficult for a white person to understand racism than a black person. Considering that black people have to live with racism every day of their lives, this is not a surprising conclusion.

2. I am not defending that. If that's the big disagreement, then there is none.

Now of course, I am defending that taking a screenshot and decrying the game as racist, is silly, and naive. There are much larger problems for anti-racists, and Revolutionary Leftists to combat in the United States, then a game focusing on rescuing a variety of people from death.While it is true that there are more important issues than a game, we fight racism where we find it. What disturbs me a lot more than the game is that people on this board, who fancy themselves "Revolutionary Leftists, don't recognize racism when they see it.

3. I don't know if that's true or not true. I'm just not willing to assume because he is White and from Europe, he is incapable of understanding racism.I didn't say he's incapable of it. But given his position in the scheme of things, white, European, with no history of antiracist activity, a little humility with regard to racism is called for.

what are your qualification red dave except your race? did you read books about racism more than we did?Probably.

how does participating in protests against racism give you any credentials is beyond me.If you don't understand that being involved in active antiracism for about 50 years, including protest, study, writing, etc., gives me some credentials, then you don't understand what gives people creds.

Now in all fairness, I am sure (at least I hope) that Red Dave is not claiming a better understanding of racism based on his race. I think he has read much of the same material we all have and has merely taken a different interpretation or understanding of the game then we have.It's not just a matter of "a different interpretation." I will, on the basis of my experience and learning, and my theoretical background claim a deeper perspective. (Dimentio, by the way is a Telchnocrat, an ideology that has never had anything to do with antiracism, theoretically or practically, except, recently, to be against it formally).

That's fine, I have no problem with that, we can all be rational, radical Leftists but disagree over whether the flash game "Gibbets 2" is racistWhat we can't do is all be"rational, radical Leftists" and disagree over what is or is not racism.

RED DAVE

MilkmanofHumanKindness

30th May 2010, 02:14

I'll present this as clearly and logically as possible:

We are answering one question: "Is the game "Gibbets 2" a racist game?"

Contention One: The Definition and Characteristics of Racism

1. Princeton University's Wordnet

I. The prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races.

II. Discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race.

2. Translator's Dictionary

I. Any attitude, action or institutional structure which systematically treats an individual or group of individuals differently because of their race.

Conclusion: It is clear from the definitions viewed that a unique factor of Racism is it's focus on discriminating against members of a particular or other race. It is also important to note that it uniquely focuses on "systematically treating an individual or group of individuals differently based on race". Thus, the characteristics of racism are:

1. It's focus of race as a trait of importance.
2. It's discrimination and unequal treatment of individuals or groups based on race.
3. The holding of belief that one race is superior to another.

Contention Two: How do we evaluate racism?

I'd argue that we evaluate racism as we evaluate immoral action, there are a few ways to do that.

1. Intent:

Often important to many ethical philosophers is what intent the actor had when completing or doing the action. For instance, I would not go to jail if when trying to save two children from drowning, I accidentally fell on top of a child and caused him/her to drown but saved the other. However, if I was trying to kill a child by jumping on him/her and crushing him/her so s/he would drown, I would go to jail.

2. Context:

Now, many ethical philosophers do not give weight to the idea that context contributes to a moral/immoral action. But it is necessary. For example, let us say we are living in a poor country, and due to Capitalist oppression we need bread to steal because we are starving and poor. This is different from if we're in a prosperous country, do not need bread to survive, and steal it from a poor artisan baker. Clearly, one is a much larger violation of morality. Thus, the context of the action must be considered.

We look to these two factors to determine the severity of immorality/racism in the action. For example, a racist image of Klansmen beating a black man is clearly racist, however with the intent of educating people about anti-racism, and in the context of a Civil Rights Museum, we do not attack the action of showing it as racist.

Contention Three: Evaluation of the Game with the above model.

Sbpt. A: The image.

The screenshot presented to us is of a black man, with a noose around is neck, being hung. This is of course cartoonized.

Sbpt. B: Evaluating the Game in Context of the Image

1. It is undeniable that the image of a black man being hung to death is a racist image. It has a long history of terror within the black community as being a harbinger of death, oppression, and horror.

2. However the two mediating factors of Context, and Intent begin to come into play when we evaluate the game.

3. Context and Intent: The Intent of the Game, is to get you the player, to rescue people. In no way are you encouraged to allow anyone to die. The creator clearly was trying to get us to rescue all people, regardless of color.

Now, if we look to Cont. 1 again, and look to the conception of Racism I have put forth, it is clear that the game can not be racist for the following:

1. The game in no way encourages or solicits the idea that one race is superior to another.
2. The game does not discriminate against any race, as all races are represented equally as victims.
3. The game does not focus on race as a trait, as once again people of all races are hung and die equally, if you fail the game.

The Context of the Game, is in trying to rescue people from this horrific death. It is also important to note that typical flash games and animation have 60 frames flashing before our eyes every, single second. Thus, it is unfair to use one to judge all.

To do so would be fallacious logic, specifically the Fallacy of Composition. The Fallacy of Composition states that one does not prove all. For example, the piano has metal parts, metal can not be ruined by a baseball bat, therefore the piano can not be broken with a baseball bat.

Conclusion: The Game is certainly not racist, perhaps distateful at most for watching humans die, but certainly not racist.

RED DAVE

30th May 2010, 02:26

The game is using an admittedly racist image in the context of a game. This is callous, insensitive and, in the context of a country which is both past and present racist, racist.

You can chop logic all you like, Milkman, but it's a racist image, and it's employment in a game is racist. Ergo, as in the OP question, it's offensive.

Tell you what. It's still early (~9:30 PM EDT). Why don't you make a printout of the image, bring it to a bar in an African-American neighborhood, and take an informal poll.

Let us know the result.

RED DAVE

MilkmanofHumanKindness

30th May 2010, 02:28

GreenCommunism

30th May 2010, 02:45

Yes, Comrade I "truly believe" the plain and simple fact that a it is more difficult for a white person to understand racism than a black person. Considering that black people have to live with racism every day of their lives, this is not a surprising conclusion.

i do think that those who are black are more sensitive to the issue. but i don't think that all black people understand it because they are black, as in their genes or so. but because they had environmental factor which make them think about this. beside, there is probably one black person in america who did not have to go through hearing a racial slur or not being employed due to the racist beliefs of a employer. probably one who believes racism is part of the past.

and like i said, it isn't because you aren't the victim that you can't empathize with those who are, regardless of education, i don't think anyone educated me either to hate or be tolerant of other ethnicities yet i disapproved ( though with less force than i would now)when some made racist comments about native americans.

If you don't understand that being involved in active antiracism for about 50 years, including protest, study, writing, etc., gives me some credentials, then you don't understand what gives people creds.

study might be some creds, but participating in anti-racist action means you oppose racism, while studying means you understand racism.

red dave you basicly didn't read anything that milkman said and come up with your own definition of racism, that is emotional response to a racist image. the same arguments was done about sexism, that it isn't because sexist jokes or words causes emotional responses that they necessarily are, but because they perpetrate such social conditions.

RED DAVE

30th May 2010, 03:26

Sigh.

Bullshit on, kiddies. I was fighting racism, understanding it and recognizing it before most of you were born. And I'll keep on doing after after most of you have settled down into comfortable bourgeois lives. You want to defend your lifestyles and your games rather than looking at the reality of racism in front of your eyes.

Punks, I'm sick of you. Go teach yourselves if you've got the brains. See you on the picket line, maybe, if you've got the guts or you can take time away from your video games.

RED DAVE

GreenCommunism

30th May 2010, 03:35

what fucking bullshit are you talking about. it's not like a mountain of litterature will change my mind on this game. as long as i know the noose was a weapon of terror on black person a thousand books won't change my mind. this a great example of a pointless over-reaction . you should focus on more important stuff, like real discrimination or racism. there are cases of segregation in bars where i come from and i frankly have no idea how to work on changing this stuff. this is important, not some retarded flash video games that doesn't incite to hatred but merely remind one of darker times.

i don't care how old you are. what the hell are you talking about my lifestyles? or video games, i don't play that game. why isn't killing nazis in medal of honor wrong according to your logic for fuck sake.

frankly this is as stupid as the discussion about the word chick, whether it is sexist or not. hell i'm willing to say it has more points than this discussion.

MilkmanofHumanKindness

30th May 2010, 03:39

Sigh.

Bullshit on, kiddies. I was fighting racism, understanding it and recognizing it before most of you were born.
RED DAVE

So, Ageism is okay with you right?

And I'll keep on doing after after most of you have settled down into comfortable bourgeois lives.
RED DAVE

Prolier than Thou, is cool too I guess. Just as it's wrong to look down on someone for being born poor, I really question the legitimacy of looking down on someone for being born middle class.

You want to defend your lifestyles and your games rather than looking at the reality of racism in front of your eyes.
RED DAVE

No, not really. Mainly just trying to explain why an image doesn't make a game racist. I'll be the first to admit, I have microfascistic tendencies, and I work to combat them actively.

Go teach yourselves if you've got the brains. See you on the picket line, maybe, if you've got the guts or you can take time away from your video games.
RED DAVE

So, because we disagree over whether or not there is racism in the flash game "Gibbets 2" we are somehow:

1. Less committed revolutionaries than you.
2. Obsessed with Video Games.
3. Lack courage.

Dang, I think this post was more offensive than "Gibbets 2".

revolution inaction

30th May 2010, 11:50

No, not really. Mainly just trying to explain why an image doesn't make a game racist. I'll be the first to admit, I have microfascistic tendencies, and I work to combat them actively.

wtf are "microfascist tendencies"?

MilkmanofHumanKindness

30th May 2010, 12:06

wtf are "microfascist tendencies"?

Oh, I should probably explain that before I get restricted for being a reactionary.

Okay, there are these two french philosophers, Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari and they have this theory called "Microfascism" contrasted to "Macrofascism".

Macrofascism is like Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany, Franco's Spain. Large militaristic corporatist/capitalist states which use race and nationalism to divide the working class.

Microfascism can best be summed up by this quote by Michel Foucault;

"Last but not least, the major enemy, the strategic adversary is fascism (whereas Anti-Oedipus' opposition to the others is more of a tactical engagement). And not only historical fascism, the fascism of Hitler and Mussolini - which was able to mobilize and use the desire of the masses so effectively - but also the fascism in us all, in our heads and in our everyday behavior, the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us."

Essentially, Microfascism is the internal desire inside all of us to make everyone, and everything around us, to be mirror copies, like us in every way. The only way to avoid or resist this tendency, is a constant awareness of our actions and tendencies towards power and sameness, which exploits and dominates us.

I'd suggest a few books if you're interested:

1. A Thousand Plateaus by Felix Guattari and Gilles Deleuze
2. The Anti-Oedipus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia by Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari

revolution inaction

30th May 2010, 12:47

Microfascism can best be summed up by this quote by Michel Foucault;

"Last but not least, the major enemy, the strategic adversary is fascism (whereas Anti-Oedipus' opposition to the others is more of a tactical engagement). And not only historical fascism, the fascism of Hitler and Mussolini - which was able to mobilize and use the desire of the masses so effectively - but also the fascism in us all, in our heads and in our everyday behavior, the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us."

Essentially, Microfascism is the internal desire inside all of us to make everyone, and everything around us, to be mirror copies, like us in every way. The only way to avoid or resist this tendency, is a constant awareness of our actions and tendencies towards power and sameness, which exploits and dominates us.

That sounds like using fascism for anything authoritarian/bad, I think it reduces the meaning of the word.

ZeroNowhere

30th May 2010, 13:22

what are your qualification red dave except your race? did you read books about racism more than we did? how does participating in protests against racism give you any credentials is beyond me.
To be honest, I think that this kind of response is counterproductive. Generally, on Revleft, it is probably best to just ignore such things, rather than replying with something which keeps the focus on the personalities involved in the debate. As it is, there have been very few Discrimination threads devoid of ad-hominem rubbish and personal attacks, and it seems that ignoring them is probably the most productive manner of not allowing them to take up more space than they deserve.

RED DAVE

30th May 2010, 13:51

what fucking bullshit are you talking about. it's not like a mountain of litterature will change my mind on this game.More the fool you. You're just demonstrating how closed minded you are.

as long as i know the noose was a weapon of terror on black person a thousand books won't change my mind.But a couple of good ones just might get you to understand the racist implications for using such an image in a game.

this a great example of a pointless over-reaction .I agree. You should have realized how racist the image and its use in the game were from the beginning.

you should focus on more important stuff, like real discrimination or racism.I generally do.

there are cases of segregation in bars where i come from and i frankly have no idea how to work on changing this stuff.Maybe if you did some reading you might learn how.

this is important, not some retarded flash video games that doesn't incite to hatred but merely remind one of darker times.It's part of the darker times that still persist.

i don't care how old you are.Or what kind of experience and knowledge I've had either.

what the hell are you talking about my lifestyles? or video games, i don't play that game.It seems to be you're spending a lot of time defending the presence of a very racist image in a video game as something that's okay.

why isn't killing nazis in medal of honor wrong according to your logic for fuck sake.I don't want to get into the individualist psychology of video games, but the games themselves deliver an entirely false notion of what it is to fight nazis, etc.

frankly this is as stupid as the discussion about the word chick, whether it is sexist or not.Missed that one. It's sexist.

hell i'm willing to say it has more points than this discussion.You're entitled to your opinion, unsupported or otherwise.

RED DAVE

GreenCommunism

30th May 2010, 14:37

To be honest, I think that this kind of response is counterproductive. Generally, on Revleft, it is probably best to just ignore such things, rather than replying with something which keeps the focus on the personalities involved in the debate. As it is, there have been very few Discrimination threads devoid of ad-hominem rubbish and personal attacks, and it seems that ignoring them is probably the most productive manner of not allowing them to take up more space than they deserve.

well i didn't really want to, i just wanted to know what else than his skin color makes him think that.

But a couple of good ones just might get you to understand the racist implications for using such an image in a game.

i doubt there's anything more than people of a certain race getting hanged. thus becoming a symbol of racist oppression

Or what kind of experience and knowledge I've had either.

i still don't even know if you're older than me. if you told me you live in a heated area where there is alot of conflicts between races then i suppose it would give you more creds. but that still doesn't make you an expert on the media and racism within them.

yet again you refuse the dictionary definition of racism. and there's no way you can think that context has any effect on the perception of said media.

I don't want to get into the individualist psychology of video games, but the games themselves deliver an entirely false notion of what it is to fight nazis, etc.

that's what video games are. they aren't real, hence 'video' 'games'.

Hiero

31st May 2010, 08:17

I just wrote a reply that I just lost. I basically said that this sort of crying racism is a method learnt from muliculturalism and liberal capitalism, this is fear of conflict. It actually ends up seperating people and putting them into neat caterogories to minimise contact.

It fails to look at the real people involved and their relationships to other individuals. It simply puts everything that is and could possibly be offensive into an abstract ideology or racism. A image is racist, a Indian man bashed to death is racist. It tells nothing about the racism within real people or about the person themselves. It decontextualises everything for the sake of people's idealogy.

RED DAVE

31st May 2010, 20:34

I just wrote a reply that I just lost. I basically said that this sort of crying racism is a method learnt from muliculturalism and liberal capitalismAre you implying that, looking at the image of a black man being hung, I'm "crying racism"?

this is fear of conflict. It actually ends up seperating people and putting them into neat caterogories to minimise contact.This is not clear. Please explain.

It fails to look at the real people involved and their relationships to other individuals. It simply puts everything that is and could possibly be offensive into an abstract ideology or racism.

A image is racist, a Indian man bashed to death is racist. It tells nothing about the racism within real people or about the person themselves. It decontextualises everything for the sake of people's idealogy.All very pretty. But that doesn't eliminate the fact that there are images that are racist. They are so powerful that they carry their own context.

RED DAVE

mikelepore

31st May 2010, 20:46

Racism isn't the word for this game. The immaturity of an eight-year-old is the term for it.

Hiero

1st June 2010, 04:41

Are you implying that, looking at the image of a black man being hung, I'm "crying racism"?

Well what are you doing? Maybe crying is confusing here.

This is not clear. Please explain.
Mulitculturalism is the result of the faliure of assimilation. It assumes that there are neatly defined subjects. It seeks to seperate them into predefined cultural models, that these subjects will act out these cultural models. It can lead to tokenism. For instance say in Australia if we have a multicultural week, we say "Bangledeshi you can show your dance, Aboriginal you can show boomerangs, white you can create some sort of dish".

In reality, people's lived cultures do not always correspond with the predifned and ideological culture. Multicultural sets up sterotypes that come from a centre, which is in Australia's case, the white settler nation. Then all "other" (in Said's use in Orientalism) performs on this backdrop.

By putting people into predifined and essentialist sterotypes we fear conflict between groups of these subjects. So liberal procress is to make boundaries that are codified in law on appriopriate conduct. In this way we seek to label any dangerous behaviour as racists and any good behaviour as muliticultural. So you telling me that this image is racist, tells me nothing. What is the process of this image between real lived subjects. Not abstract subjects and abstract ideaologies.

Like I said if a man is killed because of his assumed ethnicity we say racist, if we see an image in a game we say racist. Two different multitudes are put into the same catergory and we end up learning nothing about what really is going on.

A good read that can explain this is Ghassan Hage's White Nation. This author explains modern Multi-cultural discourse.

Animal Farm Pig

1st June 2010, 05:20

This whole game appears to be an excuse to show a massive pogrom! I am deeply offended by the antisemitism! :rolleyes:

As others have pointed out, black folks aren't the only ones who have been hanged. Nor are they the only ones who are hanged in this game. It's a silly game-- get over it.

Weezer

1st June 2010, 05:44

Context bro context

RED DAVE

1st June 2010, 06:07

Are you implying that, looking at the image of a black man being hung, I'm "crying racism"?
Well what are you doing?Pointing out that this use of a the image of a black man hanging is, in fact, racist.

Maybe crying is confusing here.I am assuming that your use of the term "crying racism" is derived from the term "crying wolf," which means crying "Danger!" where there is no danger. And you are accusing me of crying "Racism"" where there is no racism. There is nothing confusing about your use of the work "crying."

This is not clear. Please explain.
Mulitculturalism is the result of the faliure of assimilation. It assumes that there are neatly defined subjects. It seeks to seperate them into predefined cultural models, that these subjects will act out these cultural models. It can lead to tokenism. For instance say in Australia if we have a multicultural week, we say "Bangledeshi you can show your dance, Aboriginal you can show boomerangs, white you can create some sort of dish".

In reality, people's lived cultures do not always correspond with the predifned and ideological culture. Multicultural sets up sterotypes that come from a centre, which is in Australia's case, the white settler nation. Then all "other" (in Said's use in Orientalism) performs on this backdrop.Even assuming that the above discourse is correct, considering that no one has mentioned "multiculturalism," I fail to see its relevance.

By putting people into predifined and essentialist sterotypes we fear conflict between groups of these subjects. So liberal procress is to make boundaries that are codified in law on appriopriate conduct. In this way we seek to label any dangerous behaviour as racists and any good behaviour as muliticultural.All of which is irrelevant to the fact that there are such things as racist behavior and "good" behavior (from an anti-racist point of view).

So you telling me that this image is racist, tells me nothing.Because you apparently have no idea what constitutes racism.

What is the process of this image between real lived subjects. Not abstract subjects and abstract ideaologies.Putting it that way, if you go out in the street with that image on a placard, you will be, in short order, confronted with the accusation of being racist. Real lived subjects, by which I assume you mean people, who are not bullshitting, find such images to be racist. There are nonracist contexts for such images, as in writings about racism, but in the absence of a conscious, apparent antiracist motive, such images are perceived as racist.

If you don't believe me, walk into any public space, especially in the US, and display this image. Let us know what happens.

Like I said if a man is killed because of his assumed ethnicity we say racistOkay.

if we see an image in a game we say racist.Okay.

Two different multitudes are put into the same catergoryBecause they belong there. The first is horribly, severely, violently racist. The second is evocative of the first, so its casual use, as in a video game, is racist and should be avoided.

and we end up learning nothing about what really is going on.Especially if we don't want to learn as you apparently don't.

A good read that can explain this is Ghassan Hage's White Nation. This author explains modern Multi-cultural discourse.I'll put it on my list. In the meantime, I suggest you read a history of racism in the US. Even though its written from a liberal point of view, Lerone Bennett's Before the Mayflower is a good place to start. (If you've read it, it doesn't show.)

RED DAVE

GreenCommunism

1st June 2010, 08:59

Because you apparently have no idea what constitutes racism.
tell us your definition since you don't acknowledge that the people who wrote the dictionary knows.

Putting it that way, if you go out in the street with that image on a placard, you will be, in short order, confronted with the accusation of being racist. Real lived subjects, by which I assume you mean people, who are not bullshitting, find such images to be racist.
if he goes around playing it with his laptop showing it until the black man is shown, i doubt anyone will even say anything.

There are nonracist contexts for such images, as in writings about racism, but in the absence of a conscious, apparent antiracist motive, such images are perceived as racist.
they are trying to save the man from being hung, this is no racist motive for him being hung, and there is no racist motive to save him from being hanged. it's about time you acknowledge that context is useful.

Hiero

1st June 2010, 11:42

Red Dave,

I know what Racism is, I know that black people were hung as part of systematic terrorism against African-Americans, and I am well aware that walking in a street with a placard of black man being hung would result in being declared a racist.

Even assuming that the above discourse is correct, considering that no one has mentioned "multiculturalism," I fail to see its relevance.

No one needs to. If you live in the US you have engaged and lived under such government policies and ideaologies.

All of which is irrelevant to the fact that there are such things as racist behavior and "good" behavior (from an anti-racist point of view).

But who are these decided by? There is no dominant anti-racist view, there is no grand progressive board of mutli-ethnic groups dictating this. We live in a capitalist society in a era of imperialism, and the liberal way of managing individuals is centred on making all individuals adhere to the smooth outcome of capitalist production.

I merely tried to expand on what racism is, why individuals are racists, the processes of racism and the degrees. For instance Edward Said didn't just say that the images of the Middle East created by Europeans are racist, he went ont to show how the European creates an "other", which is not just another person who is different, but a serious of creations of an image of Middle Eastern people into one consistan image 'the orient' for the consumption of Europens to see what they are not.

I could have said this in any thread, that the negative relationship between two people of different ethnicities can't just be summed up as "racists".There are processes, there a libidinal feelings, sublime features, "other"ing processess, national imagination etc.

This forum is meant to be a place for indepth discussion, and the discrimination forum was actually created by the influence of members who study post-structuralism so my comments are challege to basic thinking.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

1st June 2010, 12:07

It's not racist in the context. Get a fucking grip.

Sankofa

1st June 2010, 12:25

An African-American perspective:

Yes, in the historical context of racist violence, a lone picture of a black person hanging from a noose would be offensive.

However, in the context of a flash game where you have to save people from hanging and just one of the people happens to be black, I do not consider it racist but I can understand if some one raised an eyebrow at it.

RED DAVE

1st June 2010, 16:06

ZeroNowhere

1st June 2010, 17:06

This is strong empirical evidence for the fact that some other people agree with you on the matter, which we already know, and which is irrelevant. But then, I don't think that anybody is asking to take the image out of context.

RED DAVE

1st June 2010, 17:09

This is strong empirical evidence for the fact that some other people agree with you on the matter, which we already know, and which is irrelevant.And why would you consider the opinions of two African American veterans of the civil rights struggle irrelevant?

But then, I don't think that anybody is asking to take the image out of context.As i have stated elsewhere, images of this power supply their own context.

RED DAVE

ZeroNowhere

1st June 2010, 17:15

And why would you consider the opinions of two African American veterans of the civil rights struggle irrelevant? I wouldn't consider it as relevant to the debate that some veterans of the civil rights struggle took one side or the other.

Sankofa

1st June 2010, 17:31

Empirical evidence: I asked two people close to me, African Americans, about this. Both of them, I might add, are middle-aged and veterans of the civil rights movement.

Both of them were outraged. Both of them, basically, had the opinion that there is no way to decontextualize this image. No matter how much it is part of a video game; no matter that the man could be rescued; no matter that there were other ethnic groups involved.

The power of the image of a black man being lynched prevails over all attempts to decontextualize it. If you don't experience this, or understand it, you can safely say, regardless of your background or ethnic affiliation, that you have been brainwashed by the ruling class.

RED DAVE

This thread has gotten way out of hand.

Far from being "brainwashed" by the ruling class, I have family members I'll never meet because they were beaten, raped and murdered because of their affiliation with the MDFP and the Freedom Summer movement of the 1960s.

I think it's ridiculous that all this energy is being wasted on some obscure internet game when there are several real life struggles going on to fight racism, discrimination, etc.

The image of a black person being lynched fills me with just as much disgust and rage as anyone else, but I have enough sense not be be sensational about something like this.

RED DAVE

1st June 2010, 18:10

This thread has gotten way out of hand.

Far from being "brainwashed" by the ruling class, I have family members I'll never meet because they were beaten, raped and murdered because of their affiliation with the MDFP and the Freedom Summer movement of the 1960s.Then why are you so intent on letting an obvious instance of racism go by? By the way, I was in the same CORE chapter as Mickey Schwerner.

I think it's ridiculous that all this energy is being wasted on some obscure internet game when there are several real life struggles going on to fight racism, discrimination, etc.True to a certain extent. But, in my opinion, the level of denial being put forth here to deny the very obviously racist effect of this image requires, in my opinion, serious self-criticism on the part of many comrades.

The image of a black person being lynched fills me with just as much disgust and rage as anyone else, but I have enough sense not be be sensational about something like this.It is not a matter of being sensational. The image in question obviously does not fill many others around here with such disgust and rage as it fills you and me.

This is a problem. The black community (and the Latino and other ethnic communities) is feeling the effects of the economic crisis disproportionately, which is racism in action. Comrades need to be able to recognize and reject racism in all its manifestations. This is a practice run on a very short track.

RED DAVE

Animal Farm Pig

1st June 2010, 21:46

I would like to note that the image in the original post is heavily cropped. I'm attaching a screenshot of the whole game window. If you think the game is offensive, does seeing the whole image change your thoughts?

Manifesto

2nd June 2010, 01:30

My friend pointed out that there wasn't a single black guy in any of the space levels.

RED DAVE

2nd June 2010, 02:02

My friend pointed out that there wasn't a single black guy in any of the space levels.This sounds interesting. Please elaborate.

RED DAVE

GreenCommunism

2nd June 2010, 02:07

no black astronauts.

Manifesto

2nd June 2010, 02:20

This sounds interesting. Please elaborate.

RED DAVE
I suppose to describe it better when you get to the 50s levels I think there is a space background and from what he saw as I was playing was that there wasn't a single black person.

Manifesto

2nd June 2010, 02:26

Holy shit this argument reminds me of South Park. Wow this episode is on right now actually.

MilkmanofHumanKindness

2nd June 2010, 02:37

It is not a matter of being sensational. The image in question obviously does not fill many others around here with such disgust and rage as it fills you and me.
RED DAVE

I don't think people are denying that the image itself is disgusting, or not racist. The image of a black man, hanging, is a racist one. It descends from a history of terror and race riots in which blacks were lynched, and even from current times.

What we do disagree with, is if it is fair to characterize the game as racist based on one frame. Once again, the Fallacy of Composition which I elaborated on an in unanswered post.

RED DAVE

2nd June 2010, 02:38

no black astronauts.But a black victim of a hanging.

Anyone still want to argue that it isn't racist?

RED DAVE

Gecko

2nd June 2010, 04:07

This is a game known as Gibbets 2, where you shoot arrows at people who are being hanged so that they may be cut down. After a few levels of playing it myself, I came across the image above. I've contacted the owner of the site who hosts the programmer's game, but they haven't gotten back to me.

I think it's really offensive to anyone who may see it, but especially so to African Americans

If they refuse to take it down, I'll send info to whomever hosts their servers.

:mad:
hell yeah thats racist as hell and extremely offensive and all the goofs who justify this shit with some asinine excuses are fucking racists parading around as "revolutionaries"..

GreenCommunism

2nd June 2010, 11:13

Holy shit this argument reminds me of South Park. Wow this episode is on right now actually.
you mean the flag? it's probably one of my favorite episodes. i especially like the ending where chef realize the kids didn't realize the flag was racist because they didn't see a black person as different from other human beings.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

2nd June 2010, 11:44

no black astronauts.

Because a slight pallette change in a timewasting internet game would actually address social problems, rather than simply being a pointless token gesture. :rolleyes:

GreenCommunism

2nd June 2010, 11:54

Because a slight pallette change in a timewasting internet game would actually address social problems, rather than simply being a pointless token gesture.

? are you criticizing me? i don't think there really were black astronauts though. i might be wrong. i don't really care either way. i was only kidding about the space level.

lol i finally decided to play the game and i can understand why it is fucked up, the people are not just being hanged they go from left to right. a game based on hanging is kinda fucked up. i dont think it makes it more fucked up when there is a black person. there's also a country music in the background which sounds like the one who made this game is from the midwest. first level i shot an arrow on the head of the guy but hit the rope and actually went through :D. it's hilarious in a black humour way.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

2nd June 2010, 12:07

? are you criticizing me? i don't think there really were black astronauts though. i might be wrong. i don't really care either way. i was only kidding about the space level.

I'm sorry, but RED DAVE took your post seriously, and you did not see fit to correct him, so I thought you were being serious.

Perhaps my criticism was better directed at idiots like RED DAVE who throw a hissy fit over out-of contexts images posted in a trollish manner, rather than something really important, like the fact that black youths are more likely to be stopped and searched.

GreenCommunism

2nd June 2010, 12:16

yeah i agree, but i think it is because there is some powerlessness toward those other issue that then there is some incentive to be hysterical about other things that aren't important.

Hiero

2nd June 2010, 14:54

There not astronauts anyway, in the space levels it is just people hanging.

RED DAVE

2nd June 2010, 15:04

I'm sorry, but RED DAVE took your post seriously, and you did not see fit to correct him, so I thought you were being serious.

Perhaps my criticism was better directed at idiots like RED DAVE who throw a hissy fit over out-of contexts images posted in a trollish manner, rather than something really important, like the fact that black youths are more likely to be stopped and searched.Go fuck yourself.

I was and am dealing with racism wherever I find it, so don't try to go left around me about stop and frisk and stuff like that. I've forgotten more about that than you know. I was freedom riding, sitting in and on the staff of the March on Washington before you were born. In fact, this month marks the 50th anniversary of my first anti-racist action.

I constantly experience your posts as punk: big mouth; small actions. Grow up.

RED DAVE

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

4th June 2010, 20:14

Go fuck yourself.

I was and am dealing with racism wherever I find it, so don't try to go left around me about stop and frisk and stuff like that. I've forgotten more about that than you know. I was freedom riding, sitting in and on the staff of the March on Washington before you were born. In fact, this month marks the 50th anniversary of my first anti-racist action.

So that means you can never be wrong, eh?

I constantly experience your posts as punk: big mouth; small actions. Grow up.

Mouth (or rather, words) are the primary means of communication on this site, and your (self-proclaimed) dick-swinging "hardcore revolutionary" act is the best among them. Welcome, comrade.

Fullmetal Anarchist

4th June 2010, 20:24

I've got to say it (or I'll explode). Who cares? It's a stupid fucking game. As various other users have pointed out it's not important when you put it into context. Now can we get on with the business of fighting against real discrimination instead of having a pissing contest over a stupid fucking internet browser game?

KlownBaby19

4th June 2010, 22:08

that is a bit disturbing

Robocommie

5th June 2010, 00:00

I'd argue that if you find this offensive, then it certainly is, and if you don't find it offensive, then it is not. This is a subjective thing. Saying you're a racist if you don't find this offensive is silly. However, a white person telling a black person they're not allowed to be upset at this imagery would be acting like an asshole.

People have the right to judge for themselves what pushes the limits, and it's not like there needs to be a universal bar for everyone.

RED DAVE

5th June 2010, 00:51

I'd argue that if you find this offensive, then it certainly is, and if you don't find it offensive, then it is not. This is a subjective thing.Comrade, some images area so vivid that it is impossible to avoid the racism evoked by the image. And this is one of them.

Saying you're a racist if you don't find this offensive is silly.I think that anyone, especially someone hanging out on a website for revolutionary leftists, who doesn't see the inherent racism in the image of a hanging black man, needs a serious education about racism.

However, a white person telling a black person they're not allowed to be upset at this imagery would be acting like an asshole.Obviously.

People have the right to judge for themselves what pushes the limits, and it's not like there needs to be a universal bar for everyone.Again, this is a revolutionary website. The standards here are no those for nonrevolutionaries: it's higher. Frankly, I'm shocked that there was even an issue concerning the disgusting racism of the OP image.

RED DAVE

RED DAVE

5th June 2010, 00:59

I was and am dealing with racism wherever I find it, so don't try to go left around me about stop and frisk and stuff like that. I've forgotten more about that than you know. I was freedom riding, sitting in and on the staff of the March on Washington before you were born. In fact, this month marks the 50th anniversary of my first anti-racist action.
So that means you can never be wrong, eh?No, it means I'll put my knowledge and experience about racism about yours any day.

I constantly experience your posts as punk: big mouth; small actions. Grow up.
Mouth (or rather, words) are the primary means of communication on this site, and your (self-proclaimed) dick-swinging "hardcore revolutionary" act is the best among them. Welcome, comrade.I've got a lot more than "mouth." I've got half a century of action and learning, including ongoing projects right now. Back in the day, we used to call it "credentials." Now they call it "creds."

RED DAVE

mlgb

5th June 2010, 03:14

the image in the OP certainly is racist. an image of a black man being hung, by itself, carries enough and more cultural weight to be racist no matter the context.

whether or not the game itself is racist is another question.

racist imagery being present in a particular piece of media is not enough to make it racist. a historical account of an atrocity perpetuated against a particular race that included pictures of said atrocity would not necessarily be racist even though the images were. in fact, it could be an extremely powerful anti-racist tool.

conversely, the absence of racist imagery is not enough to render something non-racist. the game hearts of iron2, as an example, is a WW2 grand strategy game and yet the flag representing germany is the german imperial flag, and in the german release of the game they go even further and remove hitler, göring, and himmler from the game. in this case, i find the absence itself to be quite offensive.

getting back to the game in question, i don't think that it is racist. the whole point of the game is that these people are innocent and are being subjected to a horrible death wrongly. the goal is to save them. it isnt an "option", if you dont save them you lose.

Cooler Reds Will Prevail

7th June 2010, 11:10

Let's do a little thought experiment here.

Let's assume we have a game, we'll call it "Time Crunchers 2," in which a hero needs to rescue the prisoners from an evil warlord. In this game, you can choose to be a Black, Latino, or White character, all of whom have the same attributes. Assume that I chose the Latino character for the sake of this experiment.

As we arrive at level 3, we see that one of the obstacles is for our hero to swim across a river and then climb over a chain-link fence in the middle of the night, while the goon squads of the evil warlord wait on the other side to stop him. One of the dozens of screenshots previewing the game happens to show this particular situation. Now, because we have a screenshot of a Latino person climbing a fence at night, does that mean we can imply that the game is racist and plays into ethnic stereotypes of Latinos as illegal immigrants? No, because regardless of the character we chose, the obstacles were exactly the same. It would be one thing if the Black and White characters had a different task for level 3, but that isn't the case. The same is true with this Giblets 2 game... If there had been 4 White people that needed to be saved from the guillotine, while the lone Black guy needed to be saved from the noose, then we'd have cause for concern. But since they are all suffering the same fate (in what is, outside the U.S., a historically non-racial method of execution), there is no grounds for claiming racism, no matter the emotional reaction it may provoke. RED DAVE is more than welcome to be offended by the picture, but he doesn't have a right to question our credentials if we don't buy the idea that there is an issue of race at hand in this game.

So, as the resident Latino of this thread, I'm going to say that, along with Giblets 2, my hypothetical game is definitely NOT racist, and say that anybody who disagrees with me is a phony leftist who is not really dedicated to anti-racist work. :)

RED DAVE

7th June 2010, 17:05

RED DAVE is more than welcome to be offended by the picture, but he doesn't have a right to question our credentials if we don't buy the idea that there is an issue of race at hand in this game.Actually, since my opinion is not arbitrary, and since this is a revolutionary, left-wing forum, I have every right to do so. And I do question your credentials. You know mine. What are yours besides your ethnicity?

So, as the resident Latino of this thread, I'm going to say that, along with Giblets 2, my hypothetical game is definitely NOT racist, and say that anybody who disagrees with me is a phony leftist who is not really dedicated to anti-racist work. :)You're welcome to say it if can defend your position. Frankly, any game that shows a Latino jumping over a fence at night is suspect.

RED DAVE

GreenCommunism

7th June 2010, 19:40

Actually, since my opinion is not arbitrary
are you stalinist? i am one. and i don't think my opinion is not arbitrary.

Frankly, any game that shows a Latino jumping over a fence at night is suspect
suspect but not before proven guilty.

Cooler Reds Will Prevail

7th June 2010, 20:59

Actually, since my opinion is not arbitrary, and since this is a revolutionary, left-wing forum, I have every right to do so. And I do question your credentials. You know mine. What are yours besides your ethnicity?

No, RED DAVE, in fact I don't know your credentials, I only know what you've said your credentials are. This is the internet, for all I know you could be a pimply 14 year old with too much time on his hands. Besides that, I feel absolutely no need to prove myself to you.

I'd like you to watch this video. At about 1:14, it shows a Black man on a noose. Is this video also racist?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuKx7AgHLes

Bad Grrrl Agro

8th June 2010, 06:14

I respectfully suggest that you white people are seriously in denial and need to engage in self-examination about racism.

Maybe it would help if instead of coming at this from your point of view, you think of the effect of this on a black person.

RED DAVE

I find games boring generally and am racially other (hispanic, so don't blindly label me as white like you assumed on everyone else with not knowing them) and while in my opinion sounds stupid and boring, I don't find it offensive.

Bad Grrrl Agro

8th June 2010, 06:24