Socialist workers party crash BA negotiations! [Archive]

Universal Struggle

22nd May 2010, 18:15

The socialist workers party have crashed negotiations with BA and the unions, the union lader was filmed calling the swp idiots lunatics and outsiders.

I for one am glad to see a socialist party getting involved in the workers struggles, even though my ideology is not the same.

What do you reckon the effect of this will be.

Below transcript of BBC report.

Talks between British Airways and union leaders were brought to an abrupt end when protesters stormed the meeting.
Dozens of demonstrators from the Socialist Workers Party staged a sit-in at the London offices of the concilliation service Acas.

It is not known how much progress was made in the last-ditch talks aimed at averting strikes by cabin crew.
The latests strikes follow a long-running dispute over jobs, pay and working conditions.

The two sides sat around the negiotating table for more five hours on Saturday before the protesters breached security.
One of the demonstrators told the BBC they were there to show solidarity with BA cabin crew.
Unite members of BA cabin crew are set for a five-day strike on Monday.
'Issue of trust'
Earlier, the union representing BA cabin crew had accused BA bosses of having a "petty, vindictive" attitude.
Tony Woodley, joint leader of Unite, said the current deal offered by BA chief executive Willie Walsh could not be accepted by his members.

But Mr Walsh, who has said the company will do everything it can to reach an agreement with Unite before Monday, has blamed Bassa, the Unite branch representing crew, for the failure to reach a deal.

[Willie] Walsh says that we cannot deliver a deal. He is right about that because the deal on the table cannot be delivered
Tony Woodley Joint leader of Unite
"The issue is that the trade union branch at the heart of this dispute - Bassa - has not accepted and will not accept that negotiation is the way forward and that is regrettable but is the truth," he said on Friday.

Mr Woodley responded by denying Bassa was the problem and said he had recommended the rejection of the latest deal to union members "because of the petty, vindictive attitude of the company".

"Mr Walsh says that we cannot deliver a deal. He is right about that because the deal on the table cannot be delivered so he has got to change," he added.
BBC business correspondent Joe Lynam said the two sides were very close to reaching an agreement but there was still a big question over the issue of trust.

harry roberts

22nd May 2010, 23:52

stupid fucking idiots....why they trying to stop the talks or have I missed something? Have the Student Workers Party become the new representatives of the Unite union members? Or is this all part of the grand revolution?

Sam_b

23rd May 2010, 05:48

haha oh wow. Maybe it's telling that the OP has one post on here - perhaps coming on here just to slander the SWP? Also typical is Harry Robert's bile, who seems to know nothing of the situation. I wish the SWP was big enough to do this all by itself, unfortunately this isn't the case and this was a show of working class strength; with party members, Right to Work members, and indeed members and workers within BA itself staging this direct action protest.

Does the OP therefore uncritically support the role of the trade union bureaucracy of Unite, who have sold out their members before, in their attempts to negotiate a 'deal' which has been labelled by some bloggers as a 'terms of surrender'? What of Derek Simpson calling workers 'deluded' about thinking they could win? The Unite ladership couldn't care less, and yet, as predictable as always, leading the charge to condemn the action which does not merely attack the SWP but also workers and working class agitators themselves are elements of the sectarian left. Its absolutely shameful that such sectarian elements would line up behind the bosses in condemning such action.

Also telling is Harry's isolationist appoach of 'representatives of Unite union members' - yet again an absolute red herring. All socialists are aware that woring class strength is not in an isolationist sphere but rather action all across the diverse spectrum of the class. This BA situation is the first of many where we are going to see cuts and redundancies, and I for one think its excellent that fellow workers have shown solidarity and strength by letting the employers know directly that they have a long fight on their hands, and support is coming from all across the country.

So telling is Harry's opinion of the class (because this was not just the SWP) as 'stupid fucking idiots' and his complete isolation of the class struggle.

RebelDog

23rd May 2010, 07:36

Have the Student Workers Party become the new representatives of the Unite union members?

Well, most students don't recieve six figure salaries, free houses and chauffeur driven cars, so they would at least be a little closer economically to the BA workers, instead of having more in common with Willie Walsh.

Hit The North

23rd May 2010, 11:20

Just for the record:

Originally posted by Sam_b
Does the OP therefore uncritically support the role of the trade union bureaucracy of Unite, who have sold out their members before, in their attempts to negotiate a 'deal' which has been labelled by some bloggers as a 'terms of surrender'?

No he doesn't. This is what the OP posted:

Originally posted by Universal Struggle
I for one am glad to see a socialist party getting involved in the workers struggles, even though my ideology is not the same.

As for harry roberts, he should just fuck off and die.

harry roberts

23rd May 2010, 11:39

http://truth-reason-liberty.blogspot.com/2010/05/socialist-workers-party-demonstrate-why.html

just for the record i aint an anarchist infact i aint really any 'ist'..... but that was good wee read

can the SWP supporters on here explain the logic of trying to brake up the talks?

also don't you think actions like this will alienate normal people from lefty politics?

And finally what really makes me chuckle is that if any other left group had done this the SWP would have been hissing 'elitist' and 'stuntist' from behind their papers and placards.....

P.s. haven't got anything against students persay but this embarrassment of an organisation who seems to be filled to the brim with student trendy lefties seems to be more detrimental to developing any social justice or change than anything the establishment or the fash can muster

Sam_b

23rd May 2010, 18:59

just for the record i aint an anarchist infact i aint really any 'ist'..... but that was good wee read

Nobody said you were.

can the SWP supporters on here explain the logic of trying to brake up the talks?

Why are you wanting 'just the SWP members' to explain? This was action taken far wider than the SWP alone. Perhaps it is easier for you to continue your sectarian agenda if you can find SWP supporters claiming this action for solely their own, and would perhaps allow you to at least attempt to devite away from your condemnation of working class action?

I think personally there were very sound reasons to try and 'brake' the talk. After months and months of this dispute we can see the inaffectiveness of Unite in representing the BA workers, with both Woodley and Simpson attacking members for wanting to fight back. The workers at one point even gave the biggest concession to the employers that I have seen in a long time - offering to work for free temporarily to try and save their jobs! Time and time again the union has let the workers down - and this was a show of strength by workers from numerous sectors showing that they weren't afraid to strike back and even defy court laws.

also don't you think actions like this will alienate normal people from lefty politics?

Pretty ironic coming from a man who poured scorn on the community who showed up to defy fascism at the SDL in Glasgow because they were'nt subscribing to squadist tactics.

And finally what really makes me chuckle is that if any other left group had done this the SWP would have been hissing 'elitist' and 'stuntist' from behind their papers and placards.....

What really makes me chuckle is you haven't got a clue. Unlike other sectarian elements of the left we don't spend column inches in our paper attacking other sections of the left.

but this embarrassment of an organisation who seems to be filled to the brim with student trendy lefties

I can imagine you saying something like this from the sidelines at Sorbonne university in 1968...it really is pathetic.

Madvillainy

23rd May 2010, 22:02

Wanted Man

23rd May 2010, 22:10

Regardless of the specifics of this action, don't any of the SWP's detractors feel that they are slightly embarrassing themselves here? The main reason to denounce the SWP here seems to be that they are moving ahead of the union leadership, and that they want workers to strike for their rights.

Well, shit, we can't have that!

Oh, and of course, they are keenly aware that the demonstrators were all trendy lefty students. Why? Well, they just feel it, man! Real working-class lads line up behind union bosses and trust them to negotiate for them, so that strikes are not necessary!

ed miliband

23rd May 2010, 22:10

P.s. haven't got anything against students persay but this embarrassment of an organisation who seems to be filled to the brim with student trendy lefties seems to be more detrimental to developing any social justice or change than anything the establishment or the fash can muster

None of them looked particularly trendy to me... :confused:

ChrisK

23rd May 2010, 22:27

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10140911.stm

Heres a link to the video of the protest. The words substitutionist adventurism spring to mind. I wonder what the BA workers think about a group of middle class student trots attempting to speak on their behalf? I think it's quite sad tbh. I mean solidarity is one thing but this was just the opportunist SWP hijacking the BA strike for their own benefit.

I like how you make this determination, when we have yet to have any rank-and-file ba union members saying what they think. All you have are union leaders and executives denouncing them, not rank-and-file workers. Why do you automatically assume that the union leaders represent the will and desires of the working class?

Seriously, at least the SWP is actually doing something to fight for the working class and encouraging strikes and workers power. What problem do you have with this?

Crux

23rd May 2010, 22:29

Wanted Man

23rd May 2010, 22:35

I am not sure if this was the right tactic to do so.

Probably not, but what some people in this thread have been saying goes quite a bit farther. The article linked to by harry roberts is particularly awful in this respect.

Sam_b

23rd May 2010, 22:51

I wonder what the BA workers think about a group of middle class student trots attempting to speak on their behalf?

If you read my reply earlier, then you would realise that this was not just the SWP doing this protest.

Also, like I asked our friend Mr Roberts, would you have stood on the sidelines of Sorbonne and denounced them as 'middle class student trots'?

23rd May 2010, 23:18

Mr Smith stressed that there was no attempt to invade the talks at all. He explained that the SWP supporters "arrived outside the venue, the doors were open, we walked in, we got on the wrong floor, and Willie Walsh was in a corridor on the phone, talking to his management".

Source (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/business_money/willie+walsh+8216is+trying+to+divide+the+union8217/3657387)

Hmm, backing out already?

harry roberts

23rd May 2010, 23:35

If you read my reply earlier, then you would realise that this was not just the SWP doing this protest.

Also, like I asked our friend Mr Roberts, would you have stood on the sidelines of Sorbonne and denounced them as 'middle class student trots'?

naa cause those studenty folk were at least doing something as opposed to selling papers or embarrassing themselves ......credit were its due afterall.....

just to clear things up than.....the arguments are

1. the SWP were representing the real view of the BA workers cause they is down with the workers? (if that is the case were was the discussions between BA workers and those protesters involved.....if no discussions took place isnt that rather elitest and to a degree squadist?:lol:)

2. the SWP by protesting in this way have done so out of solidarity and to ensure the BA workers don't feel isolated? (if that was the goal why not spend time raising funds to compensate people while they are out on strike?)

3. Those disrupting the talks weren't all SWP and were definitely not trendy lefty student types?

if i missed anything out please correct me

@Sam I was wanting the SWP people cause i thought this was an SWP organised event....after all there was all those SWP placards so thought it would be safe to assume SWP folk were heavily involved.

you also not answered me bout alienating the wider community by acting in such an embarssing way?

Sam_b

23rd May 2010, 23:36

There hasn't been a claim of going into the room, so I don't see how it is 'backing out'.

Once the conference's business was over some 200 SWP members and supporters marched to Euston Towers, where Willie Walsh was in a meeting at the Acas conciliation service.
The door was open and protesters rode up to the 23rd floor. They came across Walsh talking on his mobile outside the talks and chanted at him, "Willie Walsh, who are you? We support the cabin crew!"
The demonstrators then left the building and held a rally outside demanding that activists build solidarity for the BA workers and hold collections to support the strikes.

http://socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=21303

Sam_b

23rd May 2010, 23:41

Oh look, here comes Harry

1. the SWP were representing the real view of the BA workers cause they is down with the workers? (if that is the case were was the discussions between BA workers and those protesters involved.....if no discussions took place isnt that rather elitest and to a degree squadist?:lol:)

You've missed the point that this protest was not solely SWP.

2. the SWP by protesting in this way have done so out of solidarity and to ensure the BA workers don't feel isolated? (if that was the goal why not spend time raising funds to compensate people while they are out on strike?)

The protest was not solely SWP.
Comrades in the local area have also been trying to raise funds at stalls.

3. Those disrupting the talks weren't all SWP and were definitely not trendy lefty student types?

Would you have called the students at Sorbonne 'trendy lefty student types'? You're a one-trick pony.

@Sam was wanting the SWP people cause i thought this was an SWP organised event....after all there was all those SWP placards so thought it would be safe to assume SWP folk were heavily involved.

We like to have a presence in mass struggles, there were SWP members and supporters there, but that was not exclusive.

you also not answered me bout alienating the wider community by acting in such an embarssing way?

I don't regad this as embarrassing in the slightest. Again you hae no right to talk after your vitriol against the community during Scotland United. If working class people showing their strength is apparently 'alienatory' then I don't know what isn't.

harry roberts

23rd May 2010, 23:54

I don't regad this as embarrassing in the slightest. Again you hae no right to talk after your vitriol against the community during Scotland United. If working class people showing their strength is apparently 'alienatory' then I don't know what isn't.

working class people did not show their strength at these talks.......all i saw was a group of muppets acting the revolutionary and shouting 'who are ya' like some demented student hoolie cross breed with bad fashion sense

if you wana defend scotland united thats a whole other issue..... you think physically challenging fascism is wrong and going to another part of the city at a diffrent time to have a walk away from any fascists is the best way to 'smash the fash'....but thats a diffrent conversation

have you looked on other forums (particularly football related ones) and seen the reaction to the stupid pseudo-revolutionary action....you asked a random punter what they think?

Sam_b

24th May 2010, 00:04

working class people did not show their strength at these talks.......all i saw was a group of muppets acting the revolutionary and shouting 'who are ya' like some demented student hoolie cross breed with bad fashion sense

What do you have against students exactly? You're like a broken record and it seems this is the only insult you can muster - and it doesn't add to the debate in the slightest. So you think that the BA members and trade unionists from Right to Work on this protest are 'muppets'? Good to see you're showing solidarity.

Its telling that you haven't actually engaged with anything i've said in the thread - not about the composition of the protest, nothing on the role and stucture of Unite's trade union bureaucracy...and no answer to my questions to you.

So we'll try again - would you be at the sidelines rallying against the 'tendy lefty students' at the Sorbonne?

harry roberts

24th May 2010, 00:22

So we'll try again - would you be at the sidelines rallying against the 'tendy lefty students' at the Sorbonne?

answered that bud.....i prolly would have since they were doing more than selling papers it seems....on the other hand i don't really no much about the situation of France in may 1968

What do you have against students exactly? You're like a broken record and it seems this is the only insult you can muster - and it doesn't add to the debate in the slightest.

Don't have anything really against students.......il stop using it as an insult or a negitive way...... o am also sorry if i hurt your studenty feelings

So you think that the BA members and trade unionists from Right to Work on this protest are 'muppets'? Good to see you're showing solidarity.
they are muppets........how can you support right to work when you preventing the negotiations about getting work from happening?
or are you hoping that BA strikes are going to cause the great revolution and we all going to storm the place?

is that the same way you should solidarity when UAF stewards handed an anarchist in manchester....or the same solidarity shown in glasgow when you tried to divert the march from cambridge bar, when you lot spent the whole run up to the event telling people to go to scotland united and calling GAFA squadists and secterian....yet hours before the gafa event you changed your minds:laugh:

Its telling that you haven't actually engaged with anything i've said in the thread - not about the composition of the protest, nothing on the role and stucture of Unite's trade union bureaucracy...i think your talking bollocks about the idiots involved in braking up the talks not being all SWP

Unite's trade union bureaucracy like most unions bureaucracy is a top heavy and out of contact with ordinary members.....but the SWP do not have any right in pretending to represent that membership.

I would argue that the SWP had been in a conference all day getting wound up about the evil bosses and the system....this led to some muppets to try and be dead radical and start the revolution when in fact all you done is massivley shoot yourselves, the entire left and the trade unions, in the foot.

btw you say i dont answer questions but you avoid everything i say.... have you looked at any fourms or spoke to other folk....

if not i can give you three of my favourite quotes referring to the SWP

Spawn of Stalin

24th May 2010, 00:28

Sam_b

24th May 2010, 00:29

answered that bud.....i prolly would have since they were doing more than selling papers it seems....on the other hand i don't really no much about the situation of France in may 1968

It shows.

Don't have anything really against students.... sorry if i hurt your studenty feelings

Okay, so you don't have a rational answer? Cool.

they are muppets........how can you support right to work when you preventing the negotiations about getting work from happening?
or are you hoping that BA strikes are going to cause the great revolution and we all going to storm the place?

Okay, so tell me so far your analysis of Woodley and Simpson and how the dispute has gone from then on. You can also tell me about the fears that BA workers have had that this 'negotiation' is a terms of surrender and increases their likelihood of losing.

or the same solidarity shown in glasgow when you tried to divert the march from cambridge bar

Yeah, it was pretty bad we got everyone away from an obvious kettle. Of course you seem to have dropped your 'alienatory tactics' spiel when its up against fascism, and your attempts to go it aone and divide community protests. But thats been dealt with, as you said it is another issue right?

think your talking bollocks about the idiots involved in braking up the talks not being all SWP

Think that all you like, it doesn't prove or disprove anything.

Unite's trade union bureaucracy like most unions bureaucracy is a top heavy and out of contact with ordinary members.....but the SWP do not have any right in pretending to represent that membership.

We haven't said anything about representing the membership.

2.Arsehole****Fucks.

You're not allowed to use prejudiced language on this forum.

harry roberts

24th May 2010, 00:42

I can't denounce this action completely, but the SWP should have rallied a contingent of a few dozen actual cabin crew workers and took them along instead of just a bunch of youths acting like hooligans. That might have achieved more.

thats a fair enough statement if SWP had done that they wouldn't deserve any critique

Yeah, it was pretty bad we got everyone away from an obvious kettle. Of course you seem to have dropped your 'alienatory tactics' spiel when its up against fascism, and your attempts to go it aone and divide community protests. But thats been dealt with, as you said it is another issue right?
nup still stand by my squadist beliefs....most effective way to disrupt fash activites is with a few committed lhads and lhaddettes!

but creating a void through physical action is only part of the solution....need to fill it with class conciousness, solidarity and education...

I assume you read the article Filling the Vacuum by AFA?

one last thing you still not answered if you spoke to a random punter or looking in at what other people think about SWP braking up the talks?