Detroit cops execute 7-year-old girl

[redwinter]

I cannot even comment on this at this point.

Spread this video:

Geoffrey Fieger Addresses the Media:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4Sq2beODGI

The Execution of Aiyana Stanley-Jones:
Crimes Are Indeed Crimes No Matter Who Commits Them:

http://www.revcom.us/a/202/detroit-en.html

[Klaatu]

This is all over the news here. I do not understand the need for SWAT tactics on every single police raid. The guy they are looking for is a scum bag who had shot and killed a 17 year old kid who "didn't like the way he looked at him?" The shooter was a 34-year old. Certainly a man of this age has some common sense, to disregard the "looks" of a teenager? This whole thing ultimately led to the cops tossing a flash grenade into a home which had sleeping children? Could they not have WARNED the occupants first, and asked questions LATER???

[tracher999]

This is all over the news here. I do not understand the need for SWAT tactics on every single police raid. The guy they are looking for is a scum bag who had shot and killed a 17 year old kid who "didn't like the way he looked at him?" The shooter was a 34-year old. Certainly a man of this age has some common sense, to disregard the "looks" of a teenager? This whole thing ultimately led to the cops tossing a flash grenade into a home which had sleeping children? Could they not have WARNED the occupants first, and asked questions LATER???

thats wy i hate cops tey are criminals just like other criminals

[Foldered]

I don't even know what to say. This behaviour is devastating. I am entirely at a loss for words.

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=14027&news_iv_ctrl=1261


Racist department arrests grandmother in cover-up attempt
It is yet another case of racist police violence resulting in a horrific tragedy. Early on the morning of May 16, seven-year-old Aiyana Jones was sleeping on a sofa, when she was fatally shot in the neck by a Detroit police officer during a raid on her home. Her father, 25-year-old Charles Jones, told The Detroit News that he was forced to lie down with his face in his daughter’s blood.
http://www.pslweb.org/images/content/pagebuilder/63020.jpg
Aiyana Jones Officers were supposedly searching for a murder suspect. They fired a flash-bang grenade through the front window and then stormed the family home. The family claims the grenade burned Aiyana.

Mertilla Jones, the grandmother of Aiyana said, "They blew my granddaughter's brains out. They killed her right before my eyes. I watched the lights go out of her eyes. I seen it."

[Chambered Word]

What the fucking shit is this...

[Axle]

You see that wall there, fellas?

You'll be first up against it.

In all seriousness...fuck these shitty excuses for human beings.

[Foldered]

Again, I'm on the verge of tears. I don't care if that makes me seem like I'm weak or whatever, but I don't even know if I can return to this thread. Fuck.

[Tablo]

Hearing shit like this makes me wanna fucking cry. Believe it or not this stuff happens regularly. It may not always be a little girl, but it is always a human life. This sick world we live in needs to be cured and the cure is Communism.

[Sasha]

apperantly they trew the flashbang grenade and stormed in heavy handend to make entertaining television for the reality TV crew that was at the raid. :blink:

[Chambered Word]

If this happened in Greece cop shops would be ablaze by now.

[The Vegan Marxist]

If this happened in Greece cop shops would be ablaze by now.

Just shows how far off the American citizens are, as compared to the rest of the world. People are practically prisoners in this country under materialist interests. And like any other prisoner who's been in prison too long, even if you show them the gates to freedom, they don't want to leave their prison cell, out of fear & out of some false illusion that there's more freedom in the prison cell than in the outside world.

[Red Saxon]

This is just fucked up. I also hear the cops hit the wrong house AND failed to properly announce themselves.

[The Douche]

There are people on this forum who would have you believe cops are "just workers". Remember this when they say that.

[The Vegan Marxist]

There are people on this forum who would have you believe cops are "just workers". Remember this when they say that.

I remember starting a thread, in which asked if one could consider them as workers, but I don't remember anyone really agreeing with such.

[x371322]

Wow. I don't even know what to say. I know this kind of thing is not surprising, but it still shocks me every time I hear about it. Especially when children are involved... FUCK the police. Pitiful excuses for human beings.

[cyprose]

They are trained professionals,how can this kind of mistake happen?!

[Manifesto]

People I know already believe the fucking cover-up they told.

[The Douche]

I remember starting a thread, in which asked if one could consider them as workers, but I don't remember anyone really agreeing with such.

If you thought I was referring to you, I wasn't. But there are some people on here who do have that position on the police.

[Martin Blank]

If you thought I was referring to you, I wasn't. But there are some people on here who do have that position on the police.

Right. No one should call out individuals by name, but you can usually tell who they are by their initials, "CWI".

[GPDP]

They are trained professionals,how can this kind of mistake happen?!

Because they are trained, professional assholes.

[Red Saxon]

They are trained professionals,how can this kind of mistake happen?!Because they don't fucking care in the first place?

[al8]

If you thought I was referring to you, I wasn't. But there are some people on here who do have that position on the police.

Well in all likelihood they share a similar position to other kind of workers. They work by a shift system, they do have to pay rent to renteers or pay of loans for house purchases to bankers, rely on a pension in old age, if they loose their occupation they go on the dole etc.

Swat Team members get payed for performing guard labor. How successful they are in performing this task without bloodshed is not the issue. And it's not like us regular productive or service sector ants don't prop up capitalists and their system as well in our day to day labor routines. Gruesome affects of negligence or mistakes in productive and service sector also happen on occasion and are seen in things like workplace related deaths, injuries and mishaps.

This seems on the whole like a sensationalist coverage of a rare but expectable incident. One can't exactly be executed by a stray bullet or a careless toss of a grenade. Policy dictates that safety priority be put on cops above suspects, so these sorts of incidents are bound to happen once in a while. Would this be any different with socialist guard labor? How would we prioritize safety standards differently? To view this in some perspective I have yet to notice death by raids to be as statistically significant as work- and car-related ones.

[The Douche]

Well in all likelihood they share a similar position to other kind of workers. They work by a shift system, they do have to pay rent to renteers or pay of loans for house purchases to bankers, rely on a pension in old age, if they loose their occupation they go on the dole etc.

Swat Team members get payed for performing guard labor. How successful they are in performing this task without bloodshed is not the issue. And it's not like us regular productive or service sector ants don't prop up capitalists and their system as well in our day to day labor routines. Gruesome affects of negligence or mistakes in productive and service sector also happen on occasion and are seen in things like workplace related deaths, injuries and mishaps.

This seems on the whole like a sensationalist coverage of a rare but expectable incident. One can't exactly be executed by a stray bullet or a careless toss of a grenade. Policy dictates that safety priority be put on cops above suspects, so these sorts of incidents are bound to happen once in a while. Would this be any different with socialist guard labor? How would we prioritize safety standards differently? To view this in some perspective I have yet to notice death by raids to be as statistically significant as work- and car-related ones.

Cool story bro.:thumbup1:

[Chambered Word]

While the police are hired for a wage, they work as an arm of the state. They are essential to keep the capitalist class structure in place; so they are serving the interests of the ruling class and as we can see are usually treated differently to other 'workers'. I don't know about laws in other countries but at least in Western Australia if I assault a police officer for any reason I will get a mandatory jail sentence if convicted, unlike if I were to assault anyone else.

I think police's class interests are split between two classes: the ruling class who gives them their jobs in return for enforcing their laws and the working class as they do not own the means of production themselves. Maybe my analysis is wrong though, so please pull me up on that if you think it's flawed.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I remember reading some article where it claimed that the police officer who killed the girl, when barging into the house after flash grenades went off, "accidentally discharged" his weapon, reason be why he's only been suspended & not fired or charged. I got so fucking mad when I read that article. Accidentally discharged my ass! That was a perfect head shot for an "accidental discharge".

[Weezer]

Police are criminals like everyone else. The officer responsible better be in prison with the rest of the soap-droppers.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Well in all likelihood they share a similar position to other kind of workers. They work by a shift system, they do have to pay rent to renteers or pay of loans for house purchases to bankers, rely on a pension in old age, if they loose their occupation they go on the dole etc.


Uh-huh. Just because cops don't live in the lap of luxury doesn't mean that they're part of the working class. They're not. :rolleyes:

The militarization of the police (as well as the increased amount of cross-training between the military and police forces) is resulting in a police force in the U.S. that in some areas looks at the people they're supposed to be protecting as an occupied enemy. It's a very dangerous trend, and I'm not sure that some non-Americans realize that the police here can do basically whatever they want to you and get away with it. Chances are that the myopia of some Marxists will disappear once they get a swift kick to the head by one of these "workers".

[Kléber]

This seems on the whole like a sensationalist coverage of a rare but expectable incident. One can't exactly be executed by a stray bullet or a careless toss of a grenade. Policy dictates that safety priority be put on cops above suspects, so these sorts of incidents are bound to happen once in a while. Would this be any different with socialist guard labor? How would we prioritize safety standards differently? To view this in some perspective I have yet to notice death by raids to be as statistically significant as work- and car-related ones.
In a society where the means of production are democratically controlled by the working class (not the kind of "socialism" where tank brigades are required to suppress labor unrest), there will not be severe social antagonisms requiring deadly force to control, let alone a parasite state whose "policy dictates" that horrendous brutality against proletarians is necessary to maintain peace and order. Car crashes and workplace deaths aren't just unavoidable statistics either, sometimes the auto companies or employers are directly responsible because they knowingly ignore safety standards to increase their profits, look at mining accidents for example.

[Barry Lyndon]

Well in all likelihood they share a similar position to other kind of workers. They work by a shift system, they do have to pay rent to renteers or pay of loans for house purchases to bankers, rely on a pension in old age, if they loose their occupation they go on the dole etc.

Swat Team members get payed for performing guard labor. How successful they are in performing this task without bloodshed is not the issue. And it's not like us regular productive or service sector ants don't prop up capitalists and their system as well in our day to day labor routines. Gruesome affects of negligence or mistakes in productive and service sector also happen on occasion and are seen in things like workplace related deaths, injuries and mishaps.

This seems on the whole like a sensationalist coverage of a rare but expectable incident. One can't exactly be executed by a stray bullet or a careless toss of a grenade. Policy dictates that safety priority be put on cops above suspects, so these sorts of incidents are bound to happen once in a while. Would this be any different with socialist guard labor? How would we prioritize safety standards differently? To view this in some perspective I have yet to notice death by raids to be as statistically significant as work- and car-related ones.

What the hell is wrong with you? Pigs murder a 7-year old girl and you give us some liberalish sob story about how this 'cant be avoided'.
Even if we define them as 'workers' of a sort, when they do this shit they are traitor workers who serve the bosses. And their still murderers whatever you call them.
I guess the slave overseers in the pre-Civil War South were 'workers' too. Most of the Nazi SS came from 'working class' backgrounds as well. So did Pinkerton agents in the early 1900's who broke up strikes. The question is not mechanically what class you belong to, but ultimately whose class you serve.

[The Red Next Door]

Same here, i am starting to shed tears too. I can't think of a comment right now, so all have to say is, PUT THOSE MOTHERFUCKERS AGAINST THE WALL!

[Lyev]

Right. No one should call out individuals by name, but you can usually tell who they are by their initials, "CWI".Miles, there's no need for that petty little snipe. There are many in the CWI who aren't very happy (incl. myself) with the presence of Caton from the POA. He's an organ of the state, and quite a horrible man. (1) I wasn't part of the party when Caton joined and (2) Even if I was, I, or anyone else for that matter, wouldn't have been asked if we wanted him to join.

Do you think I would support someone like him, with the following excerpt in mind?
Caton doesn't mention that he was one of the riot squad screws at Strangeways who charged into the protesting prisoners and gave evidence in court putting someone away for a further 9 years. And while he could tell the RMT-organised ‘Conference to discuss the crisis in working-class political representation’ in January this year where he was a key speaker: ‘We want trade union and human rights and we won’t get them from this government. We want liberty, justice and peace. I want to see the shackles that currently tie us down broken', he's not so concerned about those who are genuinely shackled within the prison system.

In a POA press release in December 2008 he and Colin Moses welcomed Jack Straw's statement in an interview with the Daily Mail that he would be trying to reduce prisoners' access to the law. Caton said 'The compensation culture amongst the mainstream prison population is constantly on the increase at an unbelievable cost to the taxpayer. I hope that Mr Straw takes a serious look at the way some law firms appear to exploit the Human Rights Act to gain compensation for prisoners using the Legal Aid Scheme. Justice has to be seen to be done and currently POA members and employees working in the criminal justice system are getting a raw deal.’

Ironically, it is not only prisoners who sue for compensation. POA members regularly make claims on the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority and litigate over assaults, illness, stress and the distress of witnessing murders, suicides or riots. The union retains the services of a specialist solicitors’ firm for this express purpose. In 2006 over £1 million was paid to six Cardiff prison officers for trauma caused by finding the mutilated body of a prisoner murdered by his cell-mate, while prisoners who have witnessed suicides and murders rarely receive any counselling, let alone compensation for the trauma. The government has even capped the compensation payments to innocent prisoners released following the over-turning of wrongful convictions.

Straw told the Mail he has ‘given instructions in the services I control to be much tougher on compensation claims, such as for injuries at work.’ The state will therefore be vigorously resisting compensation claims from prisoners AND prison officers, but rather than standing shoulder to shoulder with prisoners, Caton and the POA sided with Straw and attacked the prisoners. This total lack of basic solidarity is never challenged by the Socialist Party or the other left groups and trade unions who frequently invite Caton to speak on their platforms, where he champions workers’ rights and boasts of how the POA has stood up to the government’s ban on its right to strike.He's a reactionary, who, when push comes to shove, would probably side with the bourgeois force of reaction, than with the proletariat. Once I have done a bit of background reading and research it's something I plan to challenge. Hopefully if I can persuade some people from my branch about that Caton needs to seriously rethink his ways, or we kick him out altogether, then there's perhaps a reasonable chance that we can mount a respectable challenge. This (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=2561) was a discussion in the CWI group about the whole issue and here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/stooges-state-t133815/index.html)'s a discussion that me and Sam_B had a while ago.

[Klaatu]

To make matters worse, Michigan Attorney General Mike Cox criticized Rev. Al Sharpton for giving the eulogy at the girl's funeral.

Who cares what the fuck this Cox character thinks anyway? In fact he should be the one to face criticism.

After all, this murder happened on his watch!



Posted: May 21, 2010 | Updated: 3:01 a.m. May 21, 2010
Cox blasts Sharpton's plan for Aiyana eulogy

WAR OF WORDS: Cox's tweets criticize Sharpton

Michigan Attorney General Mike Cox had harsh words for the Rev. Al Sharpton on Thursday.

Cox wrote on Twitter that he was "digusted but not surprised" that Sharpton would be giving the eulogy
at the funeral of 7-year-old Aiyana Stanley-Jones, who was shot and killed during a Detroit police raid Sunday.

Cox, a Republican gubernatorial candidate, addressed his misspelling of the word "disgusted" several hours later.
"Under any spelling, Sharpton is exploiting tragedy," he said.

The Rev. Horace Sheffield III, a prominent Detroit pastor and president of the Michigan chapter of Sharpton's
National Action Network, blasted Cox's comments.

"I think it's disturbing, disgusting and unacceptable for him to forsake his law enforcement role for his public
pandering trying to get elected to another office role," said Sheffield, who is arranging and planning to officiate
at Aiyana's funeral.

Cox, responding to a Free Press inquiry, amplified his Twitter comment about Sharpton.

"It speaks for itself. His standard MO is to fly over a tragedy and parachute in, causing more rancor and division
than before he arrived."

Cox noted that Sharpton didn't come to Detroit recently when its police officers were shot: "He didn't come in
for Ofc. (Brian) Huff's funeral."

Sheffield said that he had made a $500 donation toward Huff's funeral on behalf of himself, Sharpton and the
National Action Network.
source
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100521/NEWS01/5210370/Cox-blasts-Sharptons-plan-for-Aiyana-eulogy&template=fullarticle

[Martin Blank]

Miles, there's no need for that petty little snipe. There are many in the CWI who aren't very happy (incl. myself) with the presence of Caton from the POA. He's an organ of the state, and quite a horrible man. (1) I wasn't part of the party when Caton joined and (2) Even if I was, I, or anyone else for that matter, wouldn't have been asked if we wanted him to join.

It's not a petty snipe to point out the facts. The fact is that the CWI sees cops as "workers in uniform". Caton's recruitment is only the latest example of what this political position means. If you're not happy with the CWI's position, then fight to change it. Stop apologizing for it by talking against it (which, incidentally, is probably a violation of your organization's discipline), but doing nothing about it.

[Lyev]

It's not a petty snipe to point out the facts. The fact is that the CWI sees cops as "workers in uniform". Caton's recruitment is only the latest example of what this political position means. If you're not happy with the CWI's position, then fight to change it. Stop apologizing for it by talking against it (which, incidentally, is probably a violation of your organization's discipline), but doing nothing about it.It seems you know my organisation's line better than I do. How embarassing :blushing:. I didn't think this was a widely held position by the CWI; I thought it was fairly isolated to SPEW. Nor did I realise that there is more than one police officer, prison officer etc. amongst our ranks. It's a sad inditement of the state of the left that we have to accept such reactionaries into our ranks. On a subsidiary point, even I wanted to leave the CWI right now, I couldn't, because they're only group that's active in my area.

[Wanted Man]

Miles, there's no need for that petty little snipe. There are many in the CWI who aren't very happy (incl. myself) with the presence of Caton from the POA. He's an organ of the state, and quite a horrible man. (1) I wasn't part of the party when Caton joined and (2) Even if I was, I, or anyone else for that matter, wouldn't have been asked if we wanted him to join.

Surely, as part of the organisation, you share responsibility for its line, both in theory and practice? You may have joined later, but since then, nothing has been retracted, so it seems reasonable to assume that the party still holds the same line.

The part in bold is a pretty damning statement about the internal democracy in SPEW.


Do you think I would support someone like him, with the following excerpt in mind? He's a reactionary, who, when push comes to shove, would probably side with the bourgeois force of reaction, than with the proletariat. Once I have done a bit of background reading and research it's something I plan to challenge. Hopefully if I can persuade some people from my branch about that Caton needs to seriously rethink his ways, or we kick him out altogether, then there's perhaps a reasonable chance that we can mount a respectable challenge.

Admirable intentions, but since the SPEW do not seem to care about their members' opinions, what kind of chance have you got?


This (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=2561) was a discussion in the CWI group about the whole issue and here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/stooges-state-t133815/index.html)'s a discussion that me and Sam_B had a while ago.

So? Revleft has no bearing on the party's decisionmaking.


It seems you know my organisation's line better than I do. How embarassing . I didn't think this was a widely held position by the CWI; I thought it was fairly isolated to SPEW. Nor did I realise that there is more than one police officer, prison officer etc. amongst our ranks. It's a sad inditement of the state of the left that we have to accept such reactionaries into our ranks. On a subsidiary point, even I wanted to leave the CWI right now, I couldn't, because they're only group that's active in my area.

You're a member of SPEW, which is part of the CWI, right? As a SPEW member, how much influence do you have on the CWI?

Also, SPEW don't "have to" accept anyone, and the left as a whole has nothing to do with it.

[Lyev]

Has anyone got the time, resources etc. to help me construct a reasonable case to put forward at the next meeting, to challenge this "workers in uniform" bullshit, then? If I am going to challenge this, then I feel as though I should do it properly. If this gets enough support, or if I get enough sympathy within the party then they have to at least address it. This could just be fall through the ground, or I'll be treated like I am making a fuss over nothing.

Democracy in the party isn't particularly bad, I just don't think anyone has mounted a serious enough offensive against Caton and the POA for it to be taken seriously. I am member of SPEW, by the way. If a this whole thing falls through, or if the party proves un-democratic enough, I am going to find another organisation to join, I think.

[Psy]

The militarization of the police (as well as the increased amount of cross-training between the military and police forces) is resulting in a police force in the U.S. that in some areas looks at the people they're supposed to be protecting as an occupied enemy. It's a very dangerous trend, and I'm not sure that some non-Americans realize that the police here can do basically whatever they want to you and get away with it. Chances are that the myopia of some Marxists will disappear once they get a swift kick to the head by one of these "workers".

The militarization of police came after protesters and revolutionary militias brutally kicked the ass of police forces all across the USA through the late 1960's and early 1970's. The police departments quickly learned they were no match against militant war vets engaged in armed struggle against them, local police forces had no tactics or weapons to deal with snipers trained by the US Army with practical experience in Vietnam hostile towards police. Speaking of which for those that forgot Rambo First Blood was about a Vietnam Vet slaughtering a red neck police force over the beating the police gave him before the Rambo series turned into militaristic propaganda.


The militarization of the police was the only was the American bourgeoisie state could continue to oppress inner cities short of continuous occupation of the US Army in the ghettos of the USA.

[Delenda Carthago]

Just dont let that shit go unpunished.Action replaces tears.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Read RCP's article on this. Really sad story, can't believe they fucked up that bad(wrong house and everything) and then try to cover it up. Despicable excuses they gave too. Am I the only one that read the RCP's article and started to get extra annoyed when they started talking about the great Bob Avakian though?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Read RCP's article on this. Really sad story, can't believe they fucked up that bad(wrong house and everything) and then try to cover it up. Despicable excuses they gave too. Am I the only one that read the RCP's article and started to get extra annoyed when they started talking about the great Bob Avakian though?

Reason being why I never read any other articles anymore.

[al8]

Uh-huh. Just because cops don't live in the lap of luxury doesn't mean that they're part of the working class. They're not. :rolleyes:

The militarization of the police (as well as the increased amount of cross-training between the military and police forces) is resulting in a police force in the U.S. that in some areas looks at the people they're supposed to be protecting as an occupied enemy. It's a very dangerous trend, and I'm not sure that some non-Americans realize that the police here can do basically whatever they want to you and get away with it. Chances are that the myopia of some Marxists will disappear once they get a swift kick to the head by one of these "workers".

In Iceland the police stop loud parties and perform other innocent and useful social functions. But they also serve to uphold the law of the capitalist state, are usually irate, haughty and rude in their dealings with people - but they are not especially militarized.


In a society where the means of production are democratically controlled by the working class (not the kind of "socialism" where tank brigades are required to suppress labor unrest), there will not be severe social antagonisms requiring deadly force to control, let alone a parasite state whose "policy dictates" that horrendous brutality against proletarians is necessary to maintain peace and order. Car crashes and workplace deaths aren't just unavoidable statistics either, sometimes the auto companies or employers are directly responsible because they knowingly ignore safety standards to increase their profits, look at mining accidents for example.

I know a zero-fatality policy to be achievable in police work just as in any other field or endeavour, like transportation, damn building, etc. However I do have my reservations on how well this is achievable under capitalism or during a transition to socialism > communism.
First capitalism is designed reduce costs to a bare minimum, so sometimes safety measures get a second seat generally speaking. Then there are the almighty priorities. During the transitions we would possibly face a need to deal with all sorts of opposition with limited resources and man-power - in such moments one is forced to prioritize, sometimes painfully.

Tank brigades should suppress labor unrest if there are more pressing priorities. Class consciousness (the greater good of all) and trade union consciousness (bread and butter issues) can be at odds in the struggle. And we do not know how quickly we could dispense with a police force - it would depend on the tasks at hand and how quickly our social and economic system will take root and spread its effects. There might be some time that we might have to do with an annoyed and overworked police force making the occasional PR disaster.


What the hell is wrong with you? Pigs murder a 7-year old girl and you give us some liberalish sob story about how this 'cant be avoided'.
Even if we define them as 'workers' of a sort, when they do this shit they are traitor workers who serve the bosses. And their still murderers whatever you call them.
I guess the slave overseers in the pre-Civil War South were 'workers' too. Most of the Nazi SS came from 'working class' backgrounds as well. So did Pinkerton agents in the early 1900's who broke up strikes. The question is not mechanically what class you belong to, but ultimately whose class you serve.

I agree with you. Cops being workers is one of the reasons we need to stop fixating on workers. But then again as we stand we need to work with people that have wrong, undeveloped or mixed ideas and practices, that is, work with people as they are but not how we like them to be. So engaging and working with cops shouldn't be any different than doing so with other people who feed and defend the system. You gotta start somewhere before you get army mutinies and police defections.

[The Vegan Marxist]

/
I agree with you. Cops being workers is one of the reasons we need to stop fixating on workers. But then again as we stand we need to work with people that have wrong, undeveloped or mixed ideas and practices, that is, work with people as they are but not how we like them to be. So engaging and working with cops shouldn't be any different than doing so with other people who feed and defend the system. You gotta start somewhere before you get army mutinies and police defections.

Um, what? :confused:

[al8]

Um, what? :confused:

Context comrade context. If resolute class enemies are often workers, then why rely on class enemies on principle just because the resolute class enemies are workers? Being a worker doesn't really count for much then. Why fixate on that status of being a worker rather than the status of being class conscious and communist.

[Ocean Seal]

Yeah my cousin showed me this video. It really shows that reality TV is something that we have to do away with and that the police cannot be out of hand. And secondly it shows that you don't come in blasting "shoot first ask questions later" style. You respect the people, the police are to be servants of the people not servants of the bourgeois. Absolutely disgusting.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Context comrade context. If resolute class enemies are often workers, then why rely on class enemies on principle just because the resolute class enemies are workers? Being a worker doesn't really count for much then. Why fixate on that status of being a worker rather than the status of being class conscious and communist.

Oh, okay. Sorry about that :thumbup1:

[Martin Blank]

Context comrade context. If resolute class enemies are often workers, then why rely on class enemies on principle just because the resolute class enemies are workers? Being a worker doesn't really count for much then. Why fixate on that status of being a worker rather than the status of being class conscious and communist.

Because communists are materialists, not hopeless utopians, and all the right ideas in the world are no substitute for being the one class with the social power and weight to actually make a social revolution.

[Chambered Word]

Read RCP's article on this. Really sad story, can't believe they fucked up that bad(wrong house and everything) and then try to cover it up. Despicable excuses they gave too. Am I the only one that read the RCP's article and started to get extra annoyed when they started talking about the great Bob Avakian though?

It's an article about a 7 year old who was fucking shot to death and all they can do is prattle on about how great their leader is. :rolleyes:


Because communists are materialists, not hopeless utopians, and all the right ideas in the world are no substitute for being the one class with the social power and weight to actually make a social revolution.

I agree with Miles, the working class element will be the one that is decisive when a revolution happens. Elements of any other class can't be relied on.


Has anyone got the time, resources etc. to help me construct a reasonable case to put forward at the next meeting, to challenge this "workers in uniform" bullshit, then? If I am going to challenge this, then I feel as though I should do it properly. If this gets enough support, or if I get enough sympathy within the party then they have to at least address it. This could just be fall through the ground, or I'll be treated like I am making a fuss over nothing.

Democracy in the party isn't particularly bad, I just don't think anyone has mounted a serious enough offensive against Caton and the POA for it to be taken seriously. I am member of SPEW, by the way. If a this whole thing falls through, or if the party proves un-democratic enough, I am going to find another organisation to join, I think.

Perhaps make a class analysis of the police force (similar to what I did in this thread but elaborate with more clarity), show how it manifests itself in the real world with empirical evidence for your case and say what you think is a better way of viewing the police?

If anyone has anything to say about my ideas about the police feedback would be welcomed, by the way.

Edit: Also to add to what I was saying about different treatment by the law for police, there have been numerous cases over in Australia where cops have beaten Aboriginal people up, even killing them. Look at the case of Chris Hurley killing Mulrunji Doomadgee. This guy got a promotion, a big fat salary with it and was able to claim something like $10,000 on lost items in the Palm Island cop-shop (which he couldn't prove existed) that Aboriginal residents burned down in a riot after Doomadgee's death. This kind of shit happens alot to Aboriginals in particular. May I also add that Lex Wotton, an Aboriginal man, was successfully prosecuted over the riot.

[The Douche]

Tank brigades should suppress labor unrest if there are more pressing priorities.

Hahahahahahaha.

Good to know which side you're on. :rolleyes: All power to the state, our glorious leader will bring us backwards peons into socialism.

[Barry Lyndon]

Tank brigades should suppress labor unrest if there are more pressing priorities. Class consciousness (the greater good of all) and trade union consciousness (bread and butter issues) can be at odds in the struggle.

Wow. I'm not even an anarchist, but seriously, dude? Your nuts.

[chegitz guevara]

According to the article I read, it was the right house, they found the person they were looking for upstairs.

It was not a head shot. She was shot in the neck and died of blood loss.

The police initially claimed that the gun went off in a struggle with the father, but the video from the tv show shows that the officer fired from outside, on the porch, immediately after throwing the flash grenade.

http://kasamaproject.org/2010/05/19/detroit-police-kill-7-year-old-girl/

[chegitz guevara]

Oh jeeze, it's that same motherfucker!


Detroit Police Officer Joseph Weekley has been identified as the officer responsible for killing Aiyana Jones. He is currently a defendant in a federal civil lawsuit for a nearly identical no-knock home invasion where children present watched as the defendant officers shot two dogs.

Shot to death by Detroit police (http://www.michigancitizen.com/default.asp?sourceid=&smenu=1&twindow=&mad=&sdetail=8635&wpage=1&skeyword=&sidate=&ccat=&ccatm=&restate=&restatus=&reoption=&retype=&repmin=&repmax=&rebed=&rebath=&subname=&pform=&sc=1070&hn=michigancitizen&he=.com)

[Psy]

Tank brigades should suppress labor unrest if there are more pressing priorities

Don't you think that is just a bit of a overkill and that maybe tank brigades would be needed more fighting against capitalist armies? Or are you talking after we defeat the capitalist forces in which labor would be that militant against us why?

[aziraphale]

I cried. I'll admit that. Something needs to be done. That should not go unpunished. Anyone who shoots a defenseless child is pure evil.

[NaxalbariZindabad]

According to the article I read, it was the right house, they found the person they were looking for upstairs.

It was not a head shot. She was shot in the neck and died of blood loss.

I guess it depends where the news come from.

According to the RCP article (http://revcom.us/a/202/detroit-en.html), it was indeed the wrong home:



"What's being reported in the press is, well the fugitive or the suspect was found upstairs. He wasn't found upstairs in this home!" Fieger said during the news conference. "I don't know why you keep reporting that. This home is a lower flat. There is no upstairs in this home. There's an upstairs flat...which is a separate home, which they did not have a warrant for; they went in there and they subsequently got it and that's where he lived."That same article also says she was shot in the neck and head.

Regardless of the RCP's politics, I usually find their news articles are well researched, so I would rather trust their website than corporate news about this issue.

[al8]

Because communists are materialists, not hopeless utopians, and all the right ideas in the world are no substitute for being the one class with the social power and weight to actually make a social revolution.

Potential is nothing without a clear vision. Workers of the world unite! But for what? Mudfights? Fascism? Utopian capitalism? Fuzzy socialism or clear socialism?
One must ponder, enhance, develope, espouse and illustrate ones aims clearly so others understand. If we don't do it well enough capitalist and facists will beat us to it.

Negative attitudes towards a utopia in and of them self is a rightist deviation. Utopia just means a better society that doesn't exist yet - that it couldn't ever exist is just a flawed conservative bias often amalgamated onto the word. The word needs to be fully reclaimed so that we don't have conservative slander built into the language discussing societal change for the better.

[al8]

Don't you think that is just a bit of a overkill and that maybe tank brigades would be needed more fighting against capitalist armies? Or are you talking after we defeat the capitalist forces in which labor would be that militant against us why?

Ever heard of yellow unions or devious, corrupt union leadership or misguided members? Of course a response should always be proportional to the threat. One does not know the finer details of problems until they arise. But if tanks are needed, tanks should be sent in without the slightest liberal vacillation.

[Martin Blank]

Potential is nothing without a clear vision. Workers of the world unite! But for what? Mudfights? Fascism? Utopian capitalism? Fuzzy socialism or clear socialism?
One must ponder, enhance, develop, espouse and illustrate ones aims clearly so others understand. If we don't do it well enough capitalist and fascists will beat us to it.

And good ideas are nothing but mental masturbation without a material basis for putting them into practice properly. Consciousness, viewpoint, outlook, principles, program, strategy, tactics, etc., are meaningless unless they are utilized by those who have the social being to turn them into a reality. That is the difference between being a utopian and being a revolutionary.


Negative attitudes towards a utopia in and of them self is a rightist deviation. Utopia just means a better society that doesn't exist yet - that it couldn't ever exist is just a flawed conservative bias often amalgamated onto the word. The word needs to be fully reclaimed so that we don't have conservative slander built into the language discussing societal change for the better.

I'll spare you the recursive tautology that begs to be expressed here.

[Chambered Word]

Potential is nothing without a clear vision. Workers of the world unite! But for what? Mudfights? Fascism? Utopian capitalism? Fuzzy socialism or clear socialism?
One must ponder, enhance, develope, espouse and illustrate ones aims clearly so others understand. If we don't do it well enough capitalist and facists will beat us to it.

And if others don't understand we send in the tanks, right? I've said it before, Miles has it right on this. Socialism is built upon workers controlling their own affairs, not any party and not any army. Without this tenet of Marxism in mind you cease to be arguing for socialism.


Negative attitudes towards a utopia in and of them self is a rightist deviation. Utopia just means a better society that doesn't exist yet - that it couldn't ever exist is just a flawed conservative bias often amalgamated onto the word. The word needs to be fully reclaimed so that we don't have conservative slander built into the language discussing societal change for the better.

'Utopian socialism' as I understand it has nothing to do with building a better society, it's a tendency towards viewing the working class as mere pawns in building a socialist society which will be constructed by a central authority, a sort of top-down approach. This is exactly what you are advocating.

[Monkey Riding Dragon]

Look folks, in connection to this whole "cops are workers" issue, surely we should have a sufficiently non-reified understanding of classes to recognize that one's class position and one's class alignment are by no means automatically synonymous. Any of us who toil under this system may be technically holding it up in certain senses (which is why that needs to change!), but that's very different from enforcing the existing system in an armed way that represents the continuity of the bourgeois state itself. The first objective of revolutionaries is the seizure of state power. The police represent the state power of the enemy. Hence they are our enemies. In order to seize state power, we'll have to confront the police in an armed way as part of accomplishing that.

I remember reading this story (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700021952/Residents-of-New-Jersey-city-say-cops-worse-than-criminals.html) last month. It's just yet another expression of how occasions like the one described in the OP aren't just anomalies, but systemic. You can easily see that in the case at the link because it was a whole community being victimized, not "just" a family. Still think these folks are our friends?

[Chambered Word]

I would probably argue that the police are a class above workers, petit bourgeois perhaps.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Look folks, in connection to this whole "cops are workers" issue, surely we should have a sufficiently non-reified understanding of classes to recognize that one's class position and one's class alignment are by no means automatically synonymous. Any of us who toil under this system may be technically holding it up in certain senses (which is why that needs to change!), but that's very different from enforcing the existing system in an armed way that represents the continuity of the bourgeois state itself. The first objective of revolutionaries is the seizure of state power. The police represent the state power of the enemy. Hence they are our enemies. In order to seize state power, we'll have to confront the police in an armed way as part of accomplishing that.

I remember reading this story (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700021952/Residents-of-New-Jersey-city-say-cops-worse-than-criminals.html) last month. It's just yet another expression of how occasions like the one described in the OP aren't just anomalies, but systemic. You can easily see that in the case at the link because it was a whole community being victimized, not "just" a family. Still think these folks are our friends?

I agree with you whole heartedly. But, with this understanding, could we then classify workers of the IRS as workers against the working class, as their class alignment is not with us, but rather towards the advancement of the capitalist class, in which brings about more exploitation towards the working class?

[al8]

And good ideas are nothing but mental masturbation without a material basis for putting them into practice properly. Consciousness, viewpoint, outlook, principles, program, strategy, tactics, etc., are meaningless unless they are utilized by those who have the social being to turn them into a reality. That is the difference between being a utopian and being a revolutionary.

There is some truth in what you say, but only a half truth.
As it stands I am a worker with a class allegiance to my class the working class. And I 'mentally masturbate' as a member of this working class. If and when "consciousness, viewpoint, outlook, principles, program, strategy, tactics, etc.," get utilized by me a my fellow class members it will be be preceded by 'mental masturbation' - in other words people would have put thought in what they do. Hopefully at least.
I simply can't see how this is disconnected with building up a material basis to bring our plans to fruition.

[Martin Blank]

There is some truth in what you say, but only a half truth.
As it stands I am a worker with a class allegiance to my class the working class. And I 'mentally masturbate' as a member of this working class. If and when "consciousness, viewpoint, outlook, principles, program, strategy, tactics, etc.," get utilized by me a my fellow class members it will be be preceded by 'mental masturbation' - in other words people would have put thought in what they do. Hopefully at least.
I simply can't see how this is disconnected with building up a material basis to bring our plans to fruition.

I don't know if you are intentionally misinterpreting what I'm saying or if you really missed the point.

[Ocean Seal]

I thought that this thread was about a little girl who met a terrible fate.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I thought that this thread was about a little girl who met a terrible fate.

It was, but we all shed our tears for this girl, & now it's time to start talking about the bigger picture of this issue. It's not just about this girl, it's about all those repressed, oppressed, & killed by the Pigs of America. There's a bigger issue, & the idea that these killers are working class is a topic that needs to be refuted for real change to happen, which doesn't see these murderers in this change's future.

[Nuvem]

These stories are all too common, especially in big cities where poverty is prevalent. Here in America and in many other countries the police are far too powerful, far too abusive of their extraconstitutional rights and privileges. As poverty becomes more serious so too does crime, which usually rises out of financial desperation- the police become a tool to oppress the poor, whether consciously or unconsciously. And, of course, there is mindless killing such as this. Establishment of a Socialist economy would decrease crime rates and lower the need for a strong police force, but some level of policing will always be necessary due to high populations and the existence of senseless crimes and problems rising from pointless conflict (such as ego-fueled fights between individuals, assault, rape, etc.), but it is clear that the idea of a police force must be completely re-imagined and must take on a new identity and shape. In the conflict-driven Capitalist world, they serve to oppress and abuse just as much as to prevent crime.

[Klaatu]

Detroit mayor bans TV crews from cop raids


Last Updated: May 25. 2010 12:52PM
Bing bans TV crews from cop raids
Detroit mayor says he was unaware of reality show deal and chides chief
George Hunter / The Detroit News

Detroit -- Mayor Dave Bing said Monday he has banned reality television crews from tagging along with police units, and chided Police Chief Warren Evans for not telling him about the practice of allowing TV cameramen to join officers on raids.

During an interview with The Detroit News, Bing described Evans as "aggressive." Bing also said the chief is still making the transition from being an elected official as former Wayne County Sheriff to heading the city's police department.

Bing said Deputy Mayor Saul Green, to whom Evans directly reports, is working with the chief to tone down what Bing called an aggressive policing style.

"Saul is reining him in," Bing said.

The mayor stressed that he thought Evans was "part of the solution" to the city's crime problem, and that some of his methods seem to be working, as reflected by a lower number of homicides and non-fatal shootings since the mayor fired former chief James Barren and replaced him with Evans in July 2009.

Crime -- and Evans' response to it -- have become flashpoints in the wake of shootings this month that have resulted in the deaths of at least three teenagers, a grandmother, a police officer and a 7-year-old girl.

Bing reiterated Monday in an interview with The News' Editorial Page Editor Nolan Finley that he does not have an answer to the violence, but stressed the need for the police and community to work together to find a solution.

"The police are here to help," Bing said. "Are they perfect? The answer is no. But they're not the enemy."

Bing spokeswoman Karen Dumas said having reality TV crews on hand during raids "gives the wrong appearance" to the public that police may be altering their normal procedures to make for more entertaining television.

"We don't want to convolute the process," Dumas said, adding that local media outlets will still be allowed to do "ride-alongs."

"We'll assess that on a case-by-case basis," Dumas said.

'That's the end of that'

Cameras from the true-crime television show "The First 48" were rolling the morning of May 16, when the police department's Special Response Team, looking for a murder suspect, executed a raid on an eastside flat that ended in tragedy.

Officers threw a flash grenade through the front window before rushing into the flat on Lillibridge Street about 12:40 a.m. Details of what happened next have varied.

According to the police, when Officer Joseph Weekley entered the front room, he had some form of physical contact with 46-year-old Mertilla Jones. The officer's gun went off, piercing the neck of 7-year-old Aiyana Stanley-Jones, who was sleeping on the living-room couch. She was dead on arrival at St. John Hospital.

Aiyana's family has refuted the police version, saying Mertilla Jones made no contact with Weekley, and that after the shooting, officers took her into custody and held her for 12 hours, testing her hands to see if there was any gunpowder on them, before releasing her.

Bing said he has seen the film footage of the incident, but that it showed nothing conclusive.

"With my untrained eye, I can't determine what ... happened there," he said. "I saw flashes, and (officers) went into the house, but other than that I don't know what happened. We got to get somebody else that's got a trained eye (to look at the film)."

Bing said he wasn't aware of the police department's policy of allowing film crews on raids until after Aiyana's death.

"When we found out (that a camera crew was on the scene), I immediately called Warren and Saul and (said), 'That's the end of that,' " Bing told The News.

The contract with "The First 48" was signed six years ago, before Bing became mayor and during former police chief Ella Bully-Cummings' tenure as chief, although Bing said Evans renewed the contract, which does not involve compensation for the city.

"(Evans) said he signed an ... extension of what was already there," Bing said. "He said he didn't pay much attention to it -- but the fact of the matter is, his handwriting is on the agreement."

Bing also said he was concerned when he saw a six-minute promotional trailer for a proposed reality TV show, tentatively named "The Chief."

The trailer reportedly shows Evans posing in front of the Michigan Central Depot station, holding a semi-automatic rifle and vowing to rid the city of crime.

"(Evans) came to us after the fact and said: 'I've got this teaser that this group is looking at,' " Bing said. "We saw it and we said: 'Hell no -- don't make that public. You've got to cancel that; that's not going to happen.' But the teaser thing was already out, so it's public knowledge. And it's not positive in my opinion."

Evans declined comment, and Green did not return a telephone call.source
http://detnews.com/article/20100525/METRO01/5250369/1409/Bing-bans-TV-crews-from-cop-raids

[redwinter]

The family of Aiyana Stanley-Jones chose to hold an all-day public viewing for the slain girl on Friday, May 21, in a move reminiscent of the decision of Mamie Till to publicly display in Chicago the mutilated body of her son Emmett Till, lynched in Money, Mississippi, over half a century ago. Thousands showed up the next day at the funeral, and protests have been quickly organized among the masses in the area.

Revolution Newspaper was on the ground and has published a notebook of observations from Detroit, including some of the conflicting trends and moods among the people and the manuevering by the Detroit police, the ruling class, and their loyal opposition...
Link: http://www.revcom.us/a/202/notebook-en.html

[Obrero Rebelde]

White supremacy and white skin privilege are at the heart of American racism. And racism is all about U.S. capitalist exploitation and oppression. This is underlined in every capitalist police state assault against people of color in the USA, whether in Detroit or Arizona.

[Delenda Carthago]

Just dont let that shit go unpunished.Action replaces tears.

its sad cause i see nothing happened.You should gather with your comrades(not only your anarchist/leftist,all together)and do something.Whining in fuckin revleft doesnt do any good.

you need to have more reflexes for shit like that.you should not let that go unpunished.This time a leaflet,next time a protest,the next,a riot.You know what comes next...

[[NeXuS]]

I blame capitalism! They supplied the guns which shot the girl! Also, the capitalist government is also to blame, because they forced us hard-working citizens to pay the taxes which went to the police office, which went into their atrocious training!

[Ocean Seal]

;1758526']I blame capitalism! They supplied the guns which shot the girl! Also, the capitalist government is also to blame, because they forced us hard-working citizens to pay the taxes which went to the police office, which went into their atrocious training!
You again?

[[NeXuS]]

You again?
What about me?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Alright dude, you're an asshole. But I see your point, It is arguable that this is the work of one individual, and not judgemental of an entire system. It's also arguable that this one individual may be a racist, but does not prove the system he works for is also racist.

That is why the punishment given to the officer in question is what's important. Remember, the riots in LA didn't begin when Rodney King was beaten, they began when the police officers who conducted the savage beatdown were let off with no time, of any sort, served.

If this officer, who, as Chegitz pointed out earlier, has a history of, um, instability during raids, gets off with a suspension and is then back on the force....then it implicates the entire system.

That is what I am curious about, and if that is the case, shit may just go down.

Anyways, rest in peace. So tragic.

Now fuck off.

[Ocean Seal]

Alright dude, you're an asshole. But I see your point, It is arguable that this is the work of one individual, and not judgemental of an entire system. It's also arguable that this one individual may be a racist, but does not prove the system he works for is also racist.

That is why the punishment given to the officer in question is what's important. Remember, the riots in LA didn't begin when Rodney King was beaten, they began when the police officers who conducted the savage beatdown were let off with no time, of any sort, served.

If this officer, who, as Chegitz pointed out earlier, has a history of, um, instability during raids, gets off with a suspension and is then back on the force....then it implicates the entire system.

That is what I am curious about, and if that is the case, shit may just go down.

Anyways, rest in peace. So tragic.

Now fuck off.
Good point.

[Monkey Riding Dragon]

Comrade Lewis wrote:
I would probably argue that the police are a class above workers, petit bourgeois perhaps.

It's incorrect to describe cops as petty bourgeois forces just because they have rotten, worthless jobs. That perspective represents a desire to see working class people as an identity group. We have to accept the reality that not every working class person is on our side of the class struggle; that it's entirely possible to betray and act against one's own class. This is what I meant before about avoiding a reified outlook.

They are workers in that they, as has been pointed out, survive by taking a wage, etc. The question that should enter our minds in connection to their class alignment though is what are they getting paid to do? They are getting paid to oppress the masses and forcibly hold back the possibility of revolution. That's their job! What a job!

Mao once said that those who take up a wrong political line will also wind up adopting wrong tactics as a result. We can easily see how that's the case here. The individual on this forum who told us that we should consider cops our allies literally had to defend murder in order to uphold that position. How does such an individual explain the phenomena like the New Jersey community described at the link I provided in my last post here though? Was all that too just a workplace accident?


The Vegan Marxist wrote:
I agree with you whole heartedly. But, with this understanding, could we then classify workers of the IRS as workers against the working class, as their class alignment is not with us, but rather towards the advancement of the capitalist class, in which brings about more exploitation towards the working class?

Mmm, maybe. Scratch that, probably. But it's still not on the same level, I don't think, as actually bringing down armed force against the masses.

[Chambered Word]

It's incorrect to describe cops as petty bourgeois forces just because they have rotten, worthless jobs. That perspective represents a desire to see working class people as an identity group. We have to accept the reality that not every working class person is on our side of the class struggle; that it's entirely possible to betray and act against one's own class. This is what I meant before about avoiding a reified outlook.

My reason for considering the police a class above workers was because they are generally protected and funded by the capitalist state to enforce class relations, so I think their class interests are somewhere between the working class and the ruling class.

[Klaatu]

;1758526']I blame capitalism! They supplied the guns which shot the girl!
Actually, he has a point here.

American gun manufacturers are in bed with the National Rifle Association, which owns every
single American Republican politician, who all worship at the altar of the Second Amendment
as if it were some sort of religion.

And their wicked, bone-headed solution to crime is to supply ever more guns...

Yeah right. If the little girl had a gun, she could have shot first and saved her own life, eh?

;1758526']
Also, the capitalist government is also to blame, because they forced us hard-working citizens to pay the taxes which went to the police office, which went into their atrocious training!

The government itself is actually not capitalist. But the influence of capitalists upon the government
is akin to a virulent cancer, and getting worse.