For all the Hamas supporters [Archive]

Saorsa

21st May 2010, 06:08

Hamas government razes Gaza homes

(AFP) – 1 day ago

GAZA CITY — The Islamist Hamas rulers of Gaza have destroyed more than 20 homes claiming they were built without permits, a Palestinian human rights group said on Wednesday.

"Twenty families -- about 150 people -- lost their homes," the Palestinian
Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) said in a statement.

It said the houses in the southern city of Rafah were destroyed by police on
Sunday "because they were built on government land."

Two more houses under construction were destroyed on Monday in nearby Khan Yunis, PCHR said.

It warned that 180 more homes could soon be razed in Rafah and urged Hamas to "put an end to all house demolition operations," adding that most of those affected were poor people whose homes were previously destroyed in Israeli attacks.

Some residents complained that police had hit them with batons during the
demolition operation.

Mohammed Awad, a Hamas official, said the decision was taken by a court and not the government.

An overcrowded coastal territory, the Gaza Strip has been under an Israeli and Egyptian blockade imposed after Hamas seized power in 2007, ousting forces loyal to Western-backed Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gjmjqxJ-tFjOSo1HZ4SBT1suCeMw

The Vegan Marxist

21st May 2010, 06:15

That's pretty fucked up. This will only lead nowhere but harm to the working class people over there. Sad to see the Hamas turn out this way.

Saorsa

21st May 2010, 06:49

Sad to see the Hamas turn out this way.

What way did you expect a reactionary theocratic organisation like Hamas to turn out?

Glenn Beck

21st May 2010, 06:50

Don't really support Hamas qua Hamas but where is the context in this article? Some explanation as to why they are pursuing such a rash policy against their own constituency would be nice. I mean we may live on a planet inhabited by people who think mattress surfing is a good hobby, but I somehow doubt they're so evil that they just did it for fun.

This piece just reeks of politically exploitative bad journalism.

Saorsa

21st May 2010, 06:58

Hamas to raze 180 Gaza houses to erect Islamic religious center

Palestinian Center for Human Rights says Gaza authorities already destroyed 20 homes, forcing 150 people to live in tents.

By Avi Issacharoff

The Hamas government in the Gaza Strip plans to raze another 180 Palestinian houses, on top of the 20 it recently demolished in the southern town of Rafah, the Palestinian Center for Human Rights charged on Thursday.

The 20 houses already destroyed were home to some 150 people, who are now homeless and living in tents, the organization said.

The government said it razed the houses because they were built illegally on government land. The organization said that Hamas plans to use the same pretext to demolish houses in Khan Yunis and other towns.

Most of these houses' inhabitants are poor, the organization said, and several saw their previous houses demolished during the years of fighting with Israel.

Palestinians sources told Haaretz that the area in question, comprising around 200 dunams (some 50 acres ), had been given by the Hamas government to a charitable organization called Fadila so that it could build a religious study center there comprising a school, a college and a mosque. But when Fadila sought to begin construction, it discovered that dozens of houses had been built on the site. In most cases, these houses were built by owners whose original homes had been destroyed by the Israel Defense Forces.

Fadila applied to the Hamas government, which asked the residents to leave. When they refused, saying they had nowhere to go, the government went to court, and the court ordered them to leave. The government then began razing the houses.

Hamas halted the demolitions after they sparked outrage among ordinary Gazans and the Palestinian media. But the Palestinian Center for Human Rights fears they are slated to resume soon.

This is not the first move Hamas has made recently that sparked an outcry in Gaza. Another was its decision to impose a hefty tax on the cigarettes that are smuggled in from Egypt via tunnels, and which until then were very cheap. It has also imposed taxes on various other products smuggled through the tunnels, as well as on market stalls and all shops that sell produce by weight.

The taxes are meant to improve the Hamas government's financial plight. Its revenues have recently declined, due to the international community's efforts to crack down on fund transfers to Hamas from overseas banks, especially in Europe. In addition, less cash is being smuggled in via the tunnels, due to Egypt's crackdown on the cross-border smuggling business.

Last month, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine even warned of a popular uprising against the new decrees - or in other words, an intifada.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/hamas-to-raze-180-gaza-houses-to-erect-islamic-religious-center-1.291347

The Vegan Marxist

21st May 2010, 07:08

What way did you expect a reactionary theocratic organisation like Hamas to turn out?

Wasn't expecting much, but I had hopes that maybe they'd quit their theocratic ways. Other than that, didn't have much hope for them. My support goes out to the PFLP.

freepalestine

21st May 2010, 16:27

to be honest ,this news(reported elsewhere) may be seen as pro-fateh and anti-hamas .nevertheless,there's plenty of things to criticise both fateh and especially hamas.has a marxist,i can never support hamas, only in their stance on resistance,along with other palestinians/groups.
the hype groups such as hamas/hizbullah get in western media is far from the reallity of the political power both of them have.

FSL

21st May 2010, 18:04

Hamas is the government in its area, people building homes in estates they do not own is illegal (we have many people building luxurious homes in the middle of forests here).

Obviously poor people might have no other choise and obviously tearing down their homes is bad for them but no one ever considered Hamas to be a communist party or Palestine a worker's state that guarantees access to housing. They just enact the -unjust- law. If anyone is surprised or changed his attitude to Hamas because of that, it probably means he didn't really know what he was supporting before.

For the record, I still think that Hamas serves a decent purpose. The independent state of Palestine will be better than occupation and war and will bring the workers against only one enemy.

jake williams

21st May 2010, 19:54

Hamas is an organization of religious fundamentalists which rose to prominence when the Israeli and American states backed it against Arab secularism in Palestine, particularly groups like Fatah and the PLO. There are no Marxists who are Islamic fundamentalists, and no Marxists who actually like or support the organization as such. The accusation of "Hamas support" comes from a) uncritical adoption of Zionist propaganda and b) Zionists.

With that said, several things about Hamas and its local context need also be stated. The leadership of most of the secular movements has betrayed the Palestinian people, and almost none of the secular leaders have any credibility among anyone other than liberal expatriates, or for that matter Zionists. Some of Hamas's day-to-day activities consist of attempting to manage a small impoverished state under siege (to understate it), enforcing some pretty unattractive religious politics, trying to prevent terrorism and armed struggle against Israel, and sucking money out of the pretty tragic Gazan economy to ship off to the exile leadership in Damascus.

But "Hamas", while referring to a Gazan and Syrian leadership, also has an entirely separate meaning with a totally distinct class and political base. Hamas is viewed by much of Palestinian youth as being the only consistently anti-imperialist and non-collaborationist force in Palestine, the only political option for those who actually want to resist the occupation. Much of the youth and base of Hamas as an organization is of considerably more political sophistication and radicalism than the leadership, which certainly does some ugly things.

Not a lot of them are people we would agree with either, but what we need to understand is that they are the victims of a very ugly occupation with few political options, not even to begin the discussion of their social or economic options, and they're doing everything they can to a) survive, and b) fight the occupation, which is much more than can be said of any of the "leftists" who call secular anti-imperialists "Hamas supporters".

RadioRaheem84

21st May 2010, 20:05

Why is it that the US just throws islamic radical groups like Hamas, the Taliban and other groups they once supported at leftists when they do not need them anymore? Same with secularists like Saddam Hussein. All of a sudden they're the result of leftism?

21st May 2010, 23:25

the workers against only one enemy.

Statements like this are pretty hilarious. Hamas, supposedly an "anti-imperialist" organization, can ally itself with the exploited classes while it is fighting "imperialism," yet if there ever was a growing legitimate socialist movement they would in a heartbeat ally themselves with imperialists to crush the movement, all the while claiming their populist credentials.

It's quite obvious why this stagist strategy never works if you actually understand the role such organizations play.

Starport

21st May 2010, 23:44

We communists one way or another, mostly by peaceful coexistence reformist parliamentary, "peace movement" bollocks, have let down the working class internationally.

FSL

22nd May 2010, 00:45

Statements like this are pretty hilarious. Hamas, supposedly an "anti-imperialist" organization, can ally itself with the exploited classes while it is fighting "imperialism," yet if there ever was a growing legitimate socialist movement they would in a heartbeat ally themselves with imperialists to crush the movement, all the while claiming their populist credentials.

It's quite obvious why this stagist strategy never works if you actually understand the role such organizations play.

Stagism and national liberation are two different things. If Palestine was free I wouldn't think they should ally with some good "national capitalists" and throw out all the evil foreign or "comprador" ones. The workers should go ahead and take power themselves. That is rejecting stagism.

Now saying that when a country is occupied, it gaining its freedom is a bad thing if it doesn't come hand in hand with socialism, that's a biiiiit different.
If in fact you were in Palestine with people having lost family and friends and limbs and you spoke of some "need to condemn Hamas because they only want to make us work for capitalists, viva la revolucion!" complete with a che t-shirt and a huge smile (stereotype alert), you'd be disastrous for the building of any movement worthy to speak of.

No worker would be happy and "free" in a Palestine state,however, right now capitalism is a problem that's mine and yours, not theirs. With their unemployment, with the blockade from both sides and their eroding living standards, "freedom" and "independence" mean a lot.

22nd May 2010, 01:03

I don't know what post you were responding to but it sure wasn't mine.

FSL

22nd May 2010, 01:21

I don't know what post you were responding to but it sure wasn't mine.

Wasn't it your post that mixed stagism with national liberation movements claiming we shouldn't support the latter because the former is bad?

Lemme check...

Oh, yes it was!

jake williams

22nd May 2010, 02:38

Statements like this are pretty hilarious. Hamas, supposedly an "anti-imperialist" organization, can ally itself with the exploited classes while it is fighting "imperialism," yet if there ever was a growing legitimate socialist movement they would in a heartbeat ally themselves with imperialists to crush the movement, all the while claiming their populist credentials.
There are elements of the Hamas movement - not the leadership, the movement - and to a greater degree, elements of Hezbollah - which are actively trying to find ways to work internationally with non-Islamist anti-imperialist groups, including some socialist groups. Recent statements from Hamas have suggested some tendencies away from purely Islamist politics, and as I understand this is coming from the base, against the interests of a lot of the leadership.

It's possible Hamas will have to be abolished as an organization for such forces to get much done. But the blanket rejection of practically any Muslims because the victims of imperialism turn to anti-colonial nationalism, or because they've got some ugly religious politics, or because they're not Marxist, is totally idiotic. It's also repugnant politically when the people you're dismissing are some of the most oppressed targets of imperialism and actually engaged in some sort of political struggle.

22nd May 2010, 03:09

It's possible Hamas will have to be abolished as an organization for such forces to get much done. But the blanket rejection of practically any Muslims because the victims of imperialism turn to anti-colonial nationalism, or because they've got some ugly religious politics, or because they're not Marxist, is totally idiotic. It's also repugnant politically when the people you're dismissing are some of the most oppressed targets of imperialism and actually engaged in some sort of political struggle.

Since you seem to be a pretty reasonable chap unlike FSL I just wanted to let you know that I was not suggesting this at all and agree that it is idiotic. Unfortunately when you are not at one end of the spectrum or the other you get attacked by both extremes for being on the other extreme. Hence FSL's straw man of my post.

FSL

22nd May 2010, 03:32

Since you seem to be a pretty reasonable chap unlike FSL I just wanted to let you know that I was not suggesting this at all and agree that it is idiotic. Unfortunately when you are not at one end of the spectrum or the other you get attacked by both extremes for being on the other extreme. Hence FSL's straw man of my post.

Sorry to ruin your party but there was absolutely no strawman argument on my behalf.

Hamas, supposedly an "anti-imperialist" organization...
It's quite obvious why this stagist strategy never works if you actually understand the role such organizations play.

Even if you're not aware of it, there are tens or hundreds of national liberation struggles in the past and in the present led by non-marxists. They did succeed in their aim, aka "national liberation". Does that also liberate someone from capital? No. Is it a good thing? If you have the slightest sense of reason, yes.

These organizations play no mysterious, back-stabbing role, they are what they are.
If anyone thinks the Hamas government is always looking after the poor proletariat, then they need an immediate reality check.
If anyone thinks taking Hamas side in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is wrong, then they need a slap in their face.

Coggeh

21st June 2010, 00:48

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/hamas-to-raze-180-gaza-houses-to-erect-islamic-religious-center-1.291347
The site you got this off is possibly the furthest right pro zionist news agency on the planet.

Not defending hamas i agree with all the points your making just i would doubt alot of the stuff that comes from this piece of sh*t site...

Lulznet

21st June 2010, 02:33

Saorsa

21st June 2010, 02:44

We can support the Palestinian resistance, including the Hamas, without politically supporting the Hamas as an organisation. Instead, we can support groups like the PFLP.

Weezer

21st June 2010, 03:00

Fatah > Hamas

21st June 2010, 03:10

Fatah > Hamas

They're both thoroughly reactionary, bourgeois organizations. Support for national liberation struggles only makes sense when it is applied on principle - regardless of the character of the organization leading the struggle. This is the only way that allows for an honest analysis of the situation, rather than whitewashing this or that bourgeois organization.

Proletarian Ultra

21st June 2010, 03:33

I've worked a fair amount in big city politics and both Fatah and Hamas are both entirely recognizable types to me. You've got your Mayor Daley types (Fatah) your Al Sharptons (Hamas) and your John Lindsays (Moustafa Barghouti). In other words, mainly crooks.

The property grab doesn't surprise me in the least. They are probably going to put up a parking lot and give the concession for it to somebody's cousin. What I object to most is equating this penny ante corruptionism with the ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem, which is the unspoken premise of the article.

Guerrilla22

21st June 2010, 03:40

Fatah > Hamas

Fatah gave the IDF information on where to find Hamas leadership during the last Gaza incursion. Say what you will about Hamas, at least they never have collaborated with the IDF to kill other Palestinians.

The Vegan Marxist

21st June 2010, 04:06

Fatah gave the IDF information on where to find Hamas leadership during the last Gaza incursion. Say what you will about Hamas, at least they never have collaborated with the IDF to kill other Palestinians.

Not disagreeing with you, but can you provide a link for this please?

Coggeh

21st June 2010, 04:39

No one should be supporting the Hamas.

However the Hamas are a needed evil against Zionism. Like it or not but the Palestinians elected the Hamas in power due to the fact that they're willing to take a Militant position against Zionism.

If you ask me-- once Zionism is out of the place... There will be no more need for the Hamas and thus the Hamas movement will die afterward. :cool:
Or (if ever hamas pull something out of their arse and beat zionism) they will become the new exploiters and bourgeoise who demand all jews should be banned from palestinian lands and we'll have a new genocide on our hands.

Weezer

21st June 2010, 05:51

Fatah gave the IDF information on where to find Hamas leadership during the last Gaza incursion. Say what you will about Hamas, at least they never have collaborated with the IDF to kill other Palestinians.

Apparently, Hamas is just fine killing fellow Palestinians by themselves, they're too good for help.

Homo Songun

21st June 2010, 05:56

Hamas is the legitimate and duly elected voice of the Gazan people and all the crypto-zionist and Orientalist hand wringing in the world won't change that.

Yes, they are bourgeois nationalists and it would be better if the resistance was lead by Communists but calling them reactionary is completely idiotic and utterly beyond the pale of Marxist analysis. Not only is Hamas the main force resisting Israeli-American imperialism in the region, their welfare system is the only thing keeping untold thousands of Palestinians from destitution and starvation in the face of the blockade and occupation. According to the Council on Foreign Relations, (which as you know is a hardcore Islamic terrorist organization :rolleyes:) they spend 90% of their $70,000,000 annual budget on "social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities."

Get a fucking grip.

Tablo

21st June 2010, 06:07

I don't like any of the groups. I just want and hope the Palestinians can do something, but from the looks of things there will be no change until serious action is taking by those who oppose Israel.

The Vegan Marxist

21st June 2010, 06:09

I don't like any of the groups. I just want and hope the Palestinians can do something, but from the looks of things there will be no change until serious action is taking by those who oppose Israel.

That's why you should support the PFLP. :thumbup1:

Tablo

21st June 2010, 06:12

That's why you should support the PFLP. :thumbup1:
Meh, I used to, but parties like theirs don't ever seem to turn out well.. not trying to start a tendency war as I do think they are probably the best group involved, but I really can't support them. Besides, it would be weird for an Anarchist like me to support a Marxist-Leninist national liberation group like them. :lol:

The Vegan Marxist

21st June 2010, 06:14

Meh, I used to, but parties like theirs don't ever seem to turn out well.. not trying to start a tendency war as I do think they are probably the best group involved, but I really can't support them. Besides, it would be weird for an Anarchist like me to support a Marxist-Leninist national liberation group like them. :lol:

I know plenty of M-L-M's who'll support an Anarchist revolutionary group if they're collectively strong enough & put the working class at heart. I see no reason why it shouldn't be the other way around either.

Robocommie

21st June 2010, 07:04

Besides, it would be weird for an Anarchist like me to support a Marxist-Leninist national liberation group like them. :lol:

Well, I'm a generic, non-aligned socialist who usually finds himself agreeing with Marxist-Leninists, but I support the EZLN. ;)

The Vegan Marxist

21st June 2010, 07:09

Well, I'm a generic, non-aligned socialist who usually finds himself agreeing with Marxist-Leninists, but I support the EZLN. ;)

Too bad the EZLN doesn't support M-L's. Well, not the vanguardism part of M-L.

Proletarian Ultra

21st June 2010, 07:30

To say that Hamas has a mandate to start slaughtering the Jews or whatever nonsense CWI has in their heads is, well, nonsense. Or racist. Hamas won a majority of seats in the Pal. legislature on 44% of the votes. The other 56% went to Fatah, PFLP, DFLP and a dozen other nationalist, socialist and liberal parties. If Fatah hadn't been pigheaded and gone for a winner take all system (they thought THEY would be the ones getting 44%) we'd right now have a coalition of secular forces.

Now, even if you don't hold another Palestinian election, Hamas does not have the popular support to just go around pushing Jews into the sea. Even assuming they wanted to - I mean if they're so bourgeois (which they are) why would thy want to mass-deport a bunch of skilled workers and potential business partners for Palestinian businessmen? And if you do hold another election, you've either got different ground rules or the secularists figure out how to vote strategically to keep Hamas out of government. Not to mention if the Palestinians within Israel's borders are included - who are more secular - you don't get a Hamas legislative majority under any circumstances.

The extent to which CWI members have absorbed Mossad/State Department scaremongering is shocking but hardly suprising.

Oh, and Vegan Marxist: how is the DFLP?

The Vegan Marxist

21st June 2010, 07:35

To say that Hamas has a mandate to start slaughtering the Jews or whatever nonsense CWI has in their heads is, well, nonsense. Or racist. Hamas won a majority of seats in the Pal. legislature on 44% of the votes. The other 56% went to Fatah, PFLP, DFLP and a dozen other nationalist, socialist and liberal parties. If Fatah hadn't been pigheaded and gone for a winner take all system (they thought THEY would be the ones getting 44%) we'd right now have a coalition of secular forces.

Now, even if you don't hold another Palestinian election, does not have the popular support to just go around pushing Jews into the sea. Even assuming they wanted to - I mean if they're so bourgeois (which they are) why would thy want to mass-deport a bunch of skilled workers and potential business partners for Palestinian businessmen? And if you do hold another election, you've either got different ground rules or the secularists figure out how to vote strategically to keep Hamas out of government. Not to mention if the Palestinians within Israel's borders are included - who are more secular - you don't get a Hamas legislative majority under any circumstances.

The extent to which CWI members have absorbed Mossad/State Department scaremongering is shocking but hardly suprising.

Oh, and Vegan Marxist: how is the DFLP?

DFLP? You mean PFLP?

Weezer

21st June 2010, 07:38

Too bad the EZLN doesn't support M-L's. Well, not the vanguardism part of M-L.

That's ironic, because the EZLN is a vanguard.

Proletarian Ultra

21st June 2010, 07:44

DFLP? You mean PFLP?

No, the other one: Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

The Vegan Marxist

21st June 2010, 07:53

No, the other one: Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

Oh that's right, almost forgot about them. Damn, it's almost 3 in the morning over here & I'm tired.

I wouldn't get too attached to the DFLP. They're quite secular & tend to merely attract a more liberal base within Palestine, rather than the working class or revolutionary left. Their biggest mistake was their split from the PFLP in the first place. From there on, it just seems like the DFLP went on a decreasing crash course, & now find themselves in a small-time support base within Palestine.

it_ain't_me

21st June 2010, 08:09

The site you got this off is possibly the furthest right pro zionist news agency on the planet.

uh, haaretz is actually a relatively liberal paper, and regularly carries editorials like this:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/give-them-an-inquiry-1.297139

i don't think you'd even find a major *american* newspaper that would carry an editorial that critical of israel.

Fietsketting

21st June 2010, 08:11

I am on the side of the workingclass, on both sides of the border. No good can come out of groups/parties like Hamas. Imagine how they would run a state, womans rights anyone?

You dont have to pick a side in every conflict on the globe you know?

21st June 2010, 08:17

Proletarian Ultra

21st June 2010, 08:18

21st June 2010, 08:20

I guess not, liberal.

Don't troll. Thank you.

Qayin

21st June 2010, 08:31

You dont have to pick a side in every conflict on the globe you know?
:laugh:

Saorsa

21st June 2010, 09:03

You dont have to pick a side in every conflict on the globe you know?

Of course not. But you do have to pick a side in situations of grave injustice and oppression... like Palestine.

Fietsketting

21st June 2010, 09:22

Of course not. But you do have to pick a side in situations of grave injustice and oppression... like Palestine.

Both sides have done horrible things. The people in power do not match your ideological profile whatsoever. I agree on solidarity with the workingclass, the people who just want this bloody mess to stop and not by a party like Hamas wich in turn is just as oppressive.

Organise and solidarity along classlines, not that off state, religion or race.

GreenCommunism

21st June 2010, 09:33

2 wrong does not make a right, but with the number of people who have lost their homes from the israeli which were totally legal. i am surprised nobody is talking about that. and i don't see why hamas should not destroy buildings which were illegally built in the first place, anything like this could happen in israel.

that said i understand many pro-squatters people here are pissed off. also why is hamas doing this kind of things they will need more charity for the damage they caused. i think they did a damage/benefit analysis and decided a new school and a college is important. the mosque is somewhat useless in a way but perhaps other mosque are overcrowded.

Saorsa

21st June 2010, 11:07

Both sides have done horrible things.

lolz

Yeah the Palestinians are pretty much as bad as the Israelis, aren't they.

Are you for real?

The people in power do not match your ideological profile whatsoever.

And as you may have noticed, I actually started this thread. I'm not a support of Hamas as an organisation and I do not support their political objectives, although I do support their armed resistance campaign against Israel.

I agree on solidarity with the workingclass, the people who just want this bloody mess to stop and not by a party like Hamas wich in turn is just as oppressive.

Of course it should stop. But this is not a petty scrap in a kindergarten sandpit. The Israeli state is carrying out ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians, and they are resisting with whatever means are available to them. It should be clear to a genuine revolutionary whose side to take in this situation... in many ways it acts as a litmus test for spotting people like you.

Organise and solidarity along classlines, not that off state, religion or race.

There are big walls and IDF checkpoints in between the Palestinian and Israeli working classes. The Israeli proletariat needs to break with Zionism before it can unite with the Palestinian workers, and it's not going to break with Zionism as a result of the Palestinians getting on their knees and begging for unity.

Fietsketting

21st June 2010, 11:34

lolz

Yeah the Palestinians are pretty much as bad as the Israelis, aren't they.

Are you for real?

Thats not the point is it? 'But they did..' makes you sound like a 14 year old. I am in no way supporting groups that bomb up working class people in a buss or on a marketplace or fire missles randomly across the border. Same as i have nothing with the Israeli goverment and their deeds who are just as despicable as their counterparts across the border.

And as you may have noticed, I actually started this thread. I'm not a support of Hamas as an organisation and I do not support their political objectives, although I do support their armed resistance campaign against Israel.But indirectly you support them. I choose not too seperate the issues.

Of course it should stop. But this is not a petty scrap in a kindergarten sandpit. The Israeli state is carrying out ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians, and they are resisting with whatever means are available to them. It should be clear to a genuine revolutionary whose side to take in this situation... in many ways it acts as a litmus test for spotting people like you.Why would i support a palestinian STATE as anarchist? And then one wich really is the opposite of what i stand for?

And what a poor comment on being a genuine revolutionary! Maybe you should run to a moderator to report me for having a different opinion! Hurry!

There are big walls and IDF checkpoints in between the Palestinian and Israeli working classes. The Israeli proletariat needs to break with Zionism before it can unite with the Palestinian workers, and it's not going to break with Zionism as a result of the Palestinians getting on their knees and begging for unity.

I know how the situation is, and i agree with that. I just don't wish to be affiliated with groups like Hamas and the like. Armed struggle is something i can relate too. Great! But if you go around blowing up innocent people? You attack militairy targets, bomb railroads, sabotage etc etc

Guerrilla22

21st June 2010, 12:56

Not disagreeing with you, but can you provide a link for this please?

During the war, Fatah did everything it could to help Israel end the rule of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Fatah representatives provided Israel with vital intelligence about the location of Hamas figures and installations in the Gaza Strip. Moreover, they exerted pressure on Israel not to end the war without removing Hamas from power

http://www.hudson-ny.org/869/hamas-and-fatah-what-are-they-really-fighting-about

Saorsa

21st June 2010, 13:42

The Israelis are not 'innocent'.

Boboulas

21st June 2010, 13:56

Proletarian Ultra

21st June 2010, 15:52

Err? What is this anti-CWI tirade about? The CWI has claimed no such things.

Is CWI's position not "Workers unite, smash both Israel and Hamas"? It's true they don't go as far rhetorically as Coggeh does in this thread, but what he's been writing is pretty much the logical outcome of the CWI position.

DON'T QUESTION OUR FORM OF GOVERNMENT THINGS MIGHT GET WORSE JUST GO ABOUT YOUR BUSINESS PEACEFULLY - is the siren song of reactionaries everywhere. And yet in Ireland and Palestine, it's the official CWI position.

The Vegan Marxist

21st June 2010, 17:40

Theres nothing wrong at all with supporting a palestinian state if you are an anarchist, communist or w/e.

"Empty stomachs don't fight for freedom, they fight for bread." - Emma Goldman

People who want palestinians to start organizing workers movements are asking for too much when they struggle to protect and feed their families, building a state is the only way they will ever be able to achive socialism or anarchism.

As for hamas, they were freely ellected by their people and were punished by the USA, israel and fatah for doing so. Their islamic doctrines mean nothing when they are helping the needy (just about everyone) in gaza and protecting their opressed people.

When you want to look at what crimes both sides have commited, there are some done by hamas but when you look at the israeli reaction its totaly unjustified use of force against a much weaker opponent. There are diplomatic ways of solving the peace and then there are military ways of doing it. Israel chooses to make full use of its military but not with the objective of peace.

Right there's the problem for most anarchists, unless they radicalize the viewpoint of anarchism like Chomsky. Most anarchists want nothing to do with the State &, correct me if I'm wrong, view as a "natural flaw" in the system in which needs to be eliminated. The way I see the State, in which I'm sure many other scientific Communists view the State as, is a systematic body operated based on the conditionings of those who run it. Bureaucrats have a whole different set of conditionings when compared to the working class. The State operates itself based on who's running it. We know damn well how the State operates when it comes to bureaucratic control. But if we allow the workers to take control (workers state) then we'll begin to see a newly conditioned State, in which will interact based on the conditionings put forth by those running it - the interests of the people, rather than the self.

bcbm

21st June 2010, 18:08

Their islamic doctrines mean nothing when they are helping the needy (just about everyone) in gaza and protecting their opressed people

by bulldozing their houses!

21st June 2010, 19:03

Is CWI's position not "Workers unite, smash both Israel and Hamas"? It's true they don't go as far rhetorically as Coggeh does in this thread, but what he's been writing is pretty much the logical outcome of the CWI position.

DON'T QUESTION OUR FORM OF GOVERNMENT THINGS MIGHT GET WORSE JUST GO ABOUT YOUR BUSINESS PEACEFULLY - is the siren song of reactionaries everywhere. And yet in Ireland and Palestine, it's the official CWI position.

1. What is exactly wrong with that position? Workers unite, down with the zionist state and reactionary organisations such as Hamas. Sounds completely logical to me.

2. How does this position say that "Hamas has a mandate to start slaughtering the Jews" or that "CWI members have absorbed Mossad/State Department scaremongering" as you claimed in your previous post?

Start making sense.

Proletarian Ultra

21st June 2010, 19:12

1. What is exactly wrong with that position? Workers unite, down with the zionist state and reactionary organisations such as Hamas. Sounds completely logical to me.

In a strictly formal sense it may be. It's just based on a foolish misreading of the situation. I mean, you can't very well unite workers with a bloody great wall in the way, can you?

Above all, like the CWI position on Ireland, it specifically resolves not to pose the question of the state. It's therefore non- or anti-revolutionary.

2. How does this position say that "Hamas has a mandate to start slaughtering the Jews" or that "CWI members have absorbed Mossad/State Department scaremongering" as you claimed in your previous post?

Coggeh: "Or (if ever hamas pull something out of their arse and beat zionism) they will become the new exploiters and bourgeoise who demand all jews should be banned from palestinian lands and we'll have a new genocide on our hands."

That's scaremongering. And it presumes that even assuming Hamas wanted to go genocidal, they have enough support in the Palestinian population to do so.

Start making sense.

Posting in imperatives is not one of your more endearing qualities, Q. You have many, but that is not one of them.

21st June 2010, 19:35

In a strictly formal sense it may be. It's just based on a foolish misreading of the situation. I mean, you can't very well unite workers with a bloody great wall in the way, can you?

Above all, like the CWI position on Ireland, it specifically resolves not to pose the question of the state. It's therefore non- or anti-revolutionary.
Maybe it's just me but if you call to overthrow the zionist state and instead call for a voluntary federation of the Jewish and Palestinian people within the context of a federation of socialist states in the Middle East, because that's the CWI position, how is it not posing the question of state?

Coggeh: "Or (if ever hamas pull something out of their arse and beat zionism) they will become the new exploiters and bourgeoise who demand all jews should be banned from palestinian lands and we'll have a new genocide on our hands."

That's scaremongering. And it presumes that even assuming Hamas wanted to go genocidal, they have enough support in the Palestinian population to do so.
I agree that was not a very brilliant bit, and I have overlooked this bit before, but instead of generalising to all CWI members you might just want to explain why he is wrong and perhaps he might just learn from it.

That said, I do agree with him that Hamas would just act as another ruling stratum as this is exactly what they doing right now in Gaza.

Posting in imperatives is not one of your more endearing qualities, Q. You have many, but that is not one of them.
Yeah well, I'm just human.

danyboy27

21st June 2010, 19:44

The Israelis are not 'innocent'.
not all israeli are guilty, that probably what he meant.

Proletarian Ultra

21st June 2010, 20:08

Maybe it's just me but if you call to overthrow the zionist state and instead call for a voluntary federation of the Jewish and Palestinian people within the context of a federation of socialist states in the Middle East, because that's the CWI position, how is it not posing the question of state?

It's not posing it very effectively, is it? Saying you have some sort of goal is one thing, but you rule out all of the dirty, nasty ways of getting there, the goal isn't really doing anything for you.

I agree that was not a very brilliant bit, and I have overlooked this bit before, but instead of generalising to all CWI members you might just want to explain why he is wrong and perhaps he might just learn from it.

It was probably wrong to generalize that to all of the CWI, but posing an official equivalence between Hamas and the Israeli government imho would tend to encourage such thinking. But I'll happily retract attributing it directly to CWI.

Yeah well, I'm just human.

Aren't we all? Cheers, comrade. :)

RATM-Eubie

21st June 2010, 21:41

Support of the PFLP all the way.

Boboulas

21st June 2010, 22:17

But if we allow the workers to take control (workers state) then we'll begin to see a newly conditioned State, in which will interact based on the conditionings put forth by those running it - the interests of the people, rather than the self.

This was sort of the point i was making. Its just frustrating to see some marxists brush off anything the palestinians do just because it isnt some "workers struggle".

by bulldozing their houses!

Well you can focus on that if you want to although it probibly wont help anyone, i have no idea why hamas would do that and i deffinetly agree that its wrong. However they are the only ones helping people in gaza with the help of humanitarian oganisations (when they are allowed in).