Korean torpedo

[Paul Cockshott]

I have read the report on the sinking of the South Korean warship. Plausible account given that a north Korean torpedo involved.

Not necessarily a proof that it was fired by the North Koreans, apparently a 21 inch torpedo, which many countries have ships capable of firing.

So either an attack by the North, or a provocation by another nation using an acquired Northern torpedo -- the report says that these have been 'optained' previously.

[RedStarOverChina]

Weeks before that, a South Korean fleet ganged up on a North Korean ship, fired thousands of shells and wounded it, killing several sailors.

Now it seems the entire world somehow "forgotten" about it, and South Korea acts like they were attacked without provocation.

They were "patrolling" on DPRK's shores. Don't want to get torpedoed? Get the fuck out.

[KurtFF8]

Weeks before that, a South Korean fleet ganged up on a North Korean ship, fired thousands of shells and wounded it, killing several sailors.

Now it seems the entire world somehow "forgotten" about it, and South Korea acts like they were attacked without provocation.

They were "patrolling" on DPRK's shores. Don't want to get torpedoed? Get the fuck out.

Interesting, I haven't heard about this incident. Do you have a source? (Not doubting you here though)

[RedStarOverChina]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1260975/BREAKING-NEWS-South-Korean-ship-100-board-sinking-torpedo-attack-North-Korea.html

Last November the two navies fought a brief gun battle that left one North Korean sailor dead and three others wounded. A North Korean ship was left in flames. The South Korean military bragged about this "victory" at the time, but South Korean netizens mocked it because thousands of shells were fired on a single ship, but only wounded it.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Well, if the war wages again between the DPRK & S.K. (yes, I know, technically the war never ended) then my support goes out to the DPRK obviously.

[howblackisyourflag]

Anyone have a real history of the lead up to the korean war?

The propaganda you hear is that the north invaded, but i remember reading somewhere that the northern army was the popular one nationwide and even today many southerners support the north over what they consider the us client state dictatorship of the south.

[Tablo]

Anyone have a real history of the lead up to the korean war?

The propaganda you hear is that the north invaded, but i remember reading somewhere that the northern army was the popular one nationwide and even today many southerners support the north over what they consider the us client state dictatorship of the south.
The North were very popular before and that is why the the US went "oh noes it is teh cummunism!!" and got involved. People in the South certainly do not support the North today though.

[howblackisyourflag]

The North were very popular before and that is why the the US went "oh noes it is teh cummunism!!" and got involved. People in the South certainly do not support the North today though.

I actually read an article recently on south korean attitudes, and a lot of koreans in the two southernmost rural provinces still have a lot of support for the north,probably becausethey have seen any of the economic success the rest of the south has.

[Prairie Fire]

My initial thoughts were that, obviously, this is an attempt to try and build up a pretext for military actions against the DPRK, which there has been a push for for decades.

Red star over China makes excellent points, assuming that the story is completely legitimate. As usual, not unlike the Gulf of Tonkin incident, the context of where the ship was at the time that it was attacked is not explored or mentioned (ie. which territorial waters was the ship in). Red Star also makes an excellent point about ROK provocations against the DPRK, which are rarely mentioned or openly applauded, in roughly the same recent time period.


I am not even convinced about the legitimacy of the attack itself though. After all, we are the generation of the "weapons of mass destruction", and considering past intelligence proposals like 'Operation Northwoods'(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods), considering that Gulf of Tonkin itself was found to be a fabrication
(http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2261)... (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2261)...)
I can not conclusively concede at this time that it was in fact the DPRK that was responsible for the attack (or even if an attack took place at all!).

Despite attempts to portay the DPRK as wildly irrational and aggressive in complete disregard for their own safety, the facts are that they are a country under seige and their foriegn and domestic policy reflects consciousness of this reality. The DPRK is aware that any military move on an external power would create a pretext for war, so it is hard to believe that they would go around sinking ships without careful consideration.

Stay tuned for what the consequences of this action are.

[howblackisyourflag]

Why wouth south korea want war when there are 50,000 pieces of artilleryarmed with chemical weapons aimed at Seoul?

Why would North Korea want war when its more likely they just want to start a new round of threats for aid?

[Antifa94]

There is definitely a heightened possibility of war right now, but whether it will materialize is entirely up to South Korea. I do not doubt that North Korea will retaliate. Whatever it shall be it will be an extremely destructive war probably involving proxies. I hope that nuclear weapons aren't used.
Concurrently, a revolution is being planned in London http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/20/jooil-kim-north-korea

It may very well be a capitalist revolution under the guise of legitimate marxism-leninism. The capitalist nations would not support a communist revolution that this guy purportedly represents.

[gorillafuck]

Whatever it shall be it will be an extremely destructive war probably involving proxies.
What? How could North and South Korea have a proxy war?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

...Some families also vented anger at the military, accusing authorities of a cover-up and saying survivors told them the Cheonan was leaky and in need of repair. They shouted "Liars!" and jumped on a car carrying the rescued ship captain as it drove away.

As family members scuffled with guards, some soldiers pointed their guns at the protesting relatives.

"I find this gruesome reality — one where soldiers point their guns at heartstricken families of their comrades in arms — absolutely devastating and regrettable," said Chung Hae-kyung, 65, father of a missing lieutenant.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9ENGTT80&show_article=1

[Rusty Shackleford]

theres been an interesting rise in NK SK naval shootouts lately. i dont have as much information on land skirmishes though.

honestly, i think this will just be a formality between the two... to shoot at eachother but not declare war.

[Antifa94]

I delight in your sarcasm Zeekloid.

[gorillafuck]

I delight in your sarcasm Zeekloid.
I wasn't being sarcastic....

[Antifa94]

Alright, then.....
The Korean War was a proxy war.
This can be a continuation of that with America and NATO supporting South Korea and China/Vietnam/Laos/Cuba Supporting North Korea.

[Nolan]

China/Vietnam/Laos Supporting North Korea.Lol.

[Antifa94]

Lol.
why the fuck is this funny? If you're going to denigrate my post, don't use smug derision as a guise for lack of a rebuttal.

[Salyut]

They were "patrolling" on DPRK's shores. Don't want to get torpedoed? Get the fuck out.

Uh, the demarcation line isn't the coastline. Cheonan was on the SK side.

[Nolan]

why the fuck is this funny? If you're going to denigrate my post, don't use smug derision as a guise for lack of a rebuttal.

Because China and its satellites love North Korea so much.

[gorillafuck]

Alright, then.....
The Korean War was a proxy war.
This can be a continuation of that with America and NATO supporting South Korea and China/Vietnam/Laos/Cuba Supporting North Korea.
I don't think a war between NK and SK would be a proxy war between The US, and China, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba. China care more about their relations with the US than with NK, and Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba aren't exactly major powers.

[Rusty Shackleford]

it will probably be a decade before china starts calling the shots with the US so until then, they will probably try to avoid any conflict. if anyone can elaborate/refute/or just say something about this then go ahead.

[punisa]

If it comes to an open war, I'm afraid NK will stand only on its own.
I don't see any nation out there (especially China) which would be willing to offer military assistance, or any assistance for that matter.

Having said that, I also believe NK army to be perfectly capable of defending their territory.
The whole country is one big army camp ready to fight.

army comparison:
NK: http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=North-Korea
SK: http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=South-Korea

[Rusty Shackleford]

If it comes to an open war, I'm afraid NK will stand only on its own.
I don't see any nation out there (especially China) which would be willing to offer military assistance, or any assistance for that matter.

Having said that, I also believe NK army to be perfectly capable of defending their territory.
The whole country is one big army camp ready to fight.

army comparison:
NK: http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=North-Korea
SK: http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=South-Korea

apparently china also rejected sending more aid to DPRK when Kim went to China recently.
Militarily, im sure they would be able to hold their own for a while, the US wouldnt be able to do much about it besides the nearly 40k troops and who knows how many planes there are in the area.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I personally don't know how everyone feels about the DPRK, but they're an important ally when it comes to the defense against the global capitalist-imperialists. This war, if waged, will come not only as an attack against the DPRK, but as an attack against our beliefs, even if the DPRK doesn't outrightly support Communism any longer. I believe there should be some kind of support fund towards the DPRK, because it seems they're on their own militant wise, but when it comes to the people, they've still got plenty willing to support them over S.K. & the U.S. imperialists.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I personally don't know how everyone feels about the DPRK, but they're an important ally when it comes to the defense against the global capitalist-imperialists. This war, if waged, will come not only as an attack against the DPRK, but as an attack against our beliefs, even if the DPRK doesn't outrightly support Communism any longer. I believe there should be some kind of support fund towards the DPRK, because it seems they're on their own militant wise, but when it comes to the people, they've still got plenty willing to support them over S.K. & the U.S. imperialists.
even if you dont agree with their government/politics/economic system it is still a question of imperialism, which we must oppose.

just like defending Iran against imperialist forces who seek to overthrow its government(the green "revolution") is a great example of pro-imperialism that we (anti-imperialist) must be against, even if the politics of Iran may be reactionary. they have a right to sovereignty.

and if Iran or the DPRK are defeated by imperialists, its a defeat for the working class in a sense that it empowers imperialists and further strengthens the international bourgeoisie.

[The Vegan Marxist]

even if you dont agree with their government/politics/economic system it is still a question of imperialism, which we must oppose.

just like defending Iran against imperialist forces who seek to overthrow its government(the green "revolution") is a great example of pro-imperialism that we (anti-imperialist) must be against, even if the politics of Iran may be reactionary. they have a right to sovereignty.

and if Iran or the DPRK are defeated by imperialists, its a defeat for the working class in a sense that it empowers imperialists and further strengthens the international bourgeoisie.

Don't you mean it would be a defeat against the working class, rather than a defeat for the working class?

[Rusty Shackleford]

Don't you mean it would be a defeat against the working class, rather than a defeat for the working class?
good catch :blushing: many little words can change the meaning of whole sentences

[The Vegan Marxist]

good catch :blushing: many little words can change the meaning of whole sentences

Don't sweat it. I catch myself too, only when it's too late sometimes. :thumbup1:

But yes, the defeat against areas like Iran &/or the DPRK would make matters far more worse for us & our struggle for the liberation of the working class. I'm positive the DPRK will give off a grand fight, but everyone has their limits, & I'm not quite sure how this one will end. Which is why I feel some kind of support fund would be a way for the DPRK to know that they've got the people's support as they find themselves fighting, once again, for their independence against the global imperialist forces.

[Salyut]

Militarily, im sure they would be able to hold their own for a while, the US wouldnt be able to do much about it besides the nearly 40k troops and who knows how many planes there are in the area.

It would be a one sided slaughter.

[The Vegan Marxist]

http://i45.tinypic.com/2a7ue7d.jpg

[Antifa94]

For fuck's sake Vacant the Green revolution is a legitimate movement that isn't being funded by the bourgeoisie, hence the fact that it has fizzled out. When America fuels a rebellion, it is known and there is action i.e. Central America 1960-1991

[Sendo]

http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_entertainment/421859.html

It could be a false flag attack? The difference between 번 and 호 is that 번 is used for numbers that don't represent individual, unique objects. For example, phone numbers and bus line number two/three and route numbers. 번호 means "a number" 호 is used for ordered and sequential, unique objects. Like Room number 402, or bus number 145 (the physical bus, not the route on which it runs), or the 5th Olympics, or Chapter 7, or Branch office 54.

I don't like to jump into conspiracy theories, but it's possible here. I mean, just look at all the holes in the Warren comission.

In any case, this happens the other way around more than you'd think and war never broke out. Usually it's kept under wraps, but I had a Navy friend who told me once, for example, that (at the time) 2 weeks ago the US had shot a NK sub that ventured into Japanese waters.

I'd also like to advise against childish cheering for NK. I support its right to be anti-imperialist as much as anyone, but please keep in mind the real consequences of a war. The last time open war broke out, the powers behind each side helped raise the kill count to 3 million N and S Koreans. I would rather not hear of old friends from Seoul dying

[RedStarOverChina]

Uh, the demarcation line isn't the coastline. Cheonan was on the SK side.
Have you seen the demarcation line?
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47542000/gif/_47542554_n_s_korea_baen_226.gif
That's an illigitimate, unilaterally declared line. The DPRK has never recognized it. Because only a bully would draw a line like that.



I'd also like to advise against childish cheering for NK. I support its right to be anti-imperialist as much as anyone, but please keep in mind the real consequences of a war. The last time open war broke out, the powers behind each side helped raise the kill count to 3 million N and S Koreans. I would rather not hear of old friends from Seoul dying
Exactly.

[punisa]

I personally don't know how everyone feels about the DPRK, but they're an important ally when it comes to the defense against the global capitalist-imperialists. This war, if waged, will come not only as an attack against the DPRK, but as an attack against our beliefs, even if the DPRK doesn't outrightly support Communism any longer. I believe there should be some kind of support fund towards the DPRK, because it seems they're on their own militant wise, but when it comes to the people, they've still got plenty willing to support them over S.K. & the U.S. imperialists.

No matter what (many) lefties say, I still highly support DPRK and their unique approach towards socialism.
Just a few countries made it this far, no matter the strategy or theory deviations they implemented - I agree with you Vegan, we should support these countries and ease up with theoretical criticism.

[Starport]

Don't you mean it would be a defeat against the working class, rather than a defeat for the working class?

OK, I have looked at the stuff you put up for some days.

Sorry to say but either you are :
1) an agent of the enemy
2) a very naive comrade
3) a twat

You are not a communist of any discription,

[punisa]

OK, I have looked at the stuff you put up for some days.

Sorry to say but either you are :
1) an agent of the enemy
2) a very naive comrade
3) a twat

You are not a communist of any discription,

That's a little bit harsh comrade.
Don't engage into "my theoretic line should be everyone's theoretic line".
This is rev(olutionary)left and we'll need to get a long, for sake of anti-capitalist struggle at least :)

It's very clear - IF (possibility is on the rise) North and South engage in full blown war, who would you support?
Both potential answers ("south" or "neither") you're about to use will definitely make you a twat, go take a shot ;)

[Antifa94]

I agree Punisa- Starvation, lack of intellectual freedom, a totalitarian state, horrific labor camps are indeed a very UNIQUE approach towards socialism.
It isn't a theoretical dispute. North Korea is an abysmal wasteland and no sane person aspires to create a state like it. The sole reason I support the DPRK is due to its anti-imperialist stance.

[punisa]

I agree Punisa- Starvation, lack of intellectual freedom, a totalitarian state, horrific labor camps are indeed a very UNIQUE approach towards socialism.

Stop reading/watching CNN

[The Vegan Marxist]

OK, I have looked at the stuff you put up for some days.

Sorry to say but either you are :
1) an agent of the enemy
2) a very naive comrade
3) a twat

You are not a communist of any discription,

Where the hell do you come up with shit like that?

[Sendo]

That's a little bit harsh comrade.
Don't engage into "my theoretic line should be everyone's theoretic line".
This is rev(olutionary)left and we'll need to get a long, for sake of anti-capitalist struggle at least :)

It's very clear - IF (possibility is on the rise) North and South engage in full blown war, who would you support?
Both potential answers ("south" or "neither") you're about to use will definitely make you a twat, go take a shot ;)

I would like best if things stayed as is or returned to the way they were under Kim Dae-jung's Sunshine policy of the early Aughts.

So, punisa, if NK alone took over all the peninsula (not going to happen unless the Southern masses support it) without the backing of the PRC or the USSR (now defunct) what would happen? I can't imagine it'd be a very good transition. The whole peninsula would be cut off probably, the South Korean export industry would fall and the South would likely get raided for its industry. I would like SK to share that industry, but if NK's govt took over, we would likely see chauvinism and a very difficult period of inactivity while parts were moved northwards and trade ceased.

Just don't look at another civil war through rose-tinted glasses. In all likelihood nothing will happen. Both sides need the fear of war to hold power. In the US the people succumb to war frenzy after it starts, but that's for distant wars. SK has been at its most stable when it's been far from war. Riots and uprisings and a need to clamp down have been an ulcer in the stomach for every SK president save for Roh Moo-hyun and Kim Dae-jung. The most oppressive times were during the Korean War and the Cold War. If war broke out you could see Southern unionists and Jeju communists rear their heads again.

The 50s were the most turbulent time. If you're a socialist in the South and there's a real possibility of a Red Army coming to town soon, it makes sense to stage your uprising.

The N and S Koreans will NOT be driven into a war frenzy of "my country right or wrong" if open war breaks out. This will NOT happen. The vast majority of S Koreans want reconciliation and are largely in denial of the separation. Both sides are kept ignorant as to the vast CULTURAL and ETHNIC changes that have happened and continue to happen between and WITHIN the two Koreas. They largely identify as Koreans and identify mostly everyone on the peninsula as "Korean".

The DANGER and FEAR of war is key to electoral victory for the ruling GNP or 한나라당. The GNP is hoping the people will finally believe that bringing back and revving up the party's Reagan-esque attitude is the only way to keep Kim Jong-il at bay. But this party is hopelessly out of touch with the people. They struck a nerve with old voters with right-wing economic promises at the price of "austerity" and the young had been disillusioned with the center-left parties and stopped voting (sound familiar?) but have been tanking ever since. Most recently the party had a major blunder with a sexist campaign ad they had to remove after two days. You can read more about it on the Hankyoreh front page.

Both Koreas also have a draft army. DO NOT expect mothers and fathers to wish their children into battle.

[Antifa94]

I don't watch. Yes, I'm sure that all the testimonies of defectors are really capitalist lies and that this is a large conspiracy- In fact, I'm sure North Korea is a bastion of class consciousness and utopian socialism where nothing bad ever happens!
Get your head out of your arse. Whether you believe the testimonies of these people or not, you can't ignore the fascistic insertions into the N.Korean Constitution.
Why are you trying to defend the indefensible?

[Antifa94]

Coming up next, an appraisal of Erich Honecker and Kruschev for their substantial contributions to leftism:lol:

[Antifa94]

oh wait actually I also support North Korea Because they make pretty posters, like the ones they made during the 150 day labor struggle against America. Seriously, their designs were fantastic.:thumbup1:

[scarletghoul]

http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2010/201005/news20/20100520-04ee.html


National Defence Commission Issues Statement




Pyongyang, May 20 (KCNA) -- A spokesman for the DPRK National Defence Commission issued a statement today as regards the sinking of warship "Cheonan" of the south Korean puppet navy.
The statement reads:

We had already warned the south Korean group of traitors not to make reckless remarks concerning the sinking of warship "Cheonan" of the puppet navy.

Nevertheless, the group of traitors had far-fetchedly tried to link the case with us without offering any material evidence. It finally announced the results of the joint investigation based on a sheer fabrication, which assert that the warship was sunken by our torpedo attack, in a bid to mislead the public opinion inside and outside Korea.

It is, at the same time, crying out for "punishment" and "retaliation" internally and foolishly seeking to prod the international community into applying additional "sanctions" against the DPRK.

What matters is that traitor Lee Myung Bak is taking the lead in such anti-DPRK smear campaign, even daring slander the headquarters of our revolution.

Meanwhile, Kim Thae Yong and other gangsters of the south Korean puppet military accustomed to flattery and blind obedience echo Lee Myung Bak's outbursts. This smear campaign is fanned up by Ryu Myung Hwan and other ultra-rightist conservatives of south Korea.

This is also joined by the U.S. and Japanese aggressors who are making desperate efforts to keep their hostile policy towards the DPRK on its orbit.

We would like to question them so busy linking the above-said case with the DPRK why they don't link with it the death of a puppet army soldier, crashes of fighter plane and gunship of the puppet navy and air force and the sinking of a civilian fishing boat that occurred one after another almost simultaneously.

It is the age of science and technology.

As a swollen balloon is bound to break, any lie is bound to be brought to light no matter how hard one may try to make it sound plausible.

What is evident is that the sinking of warship "Cheonan" can never be construed otherwise than a "conspiratorial farce" and "charade" orchestrated by the group of traitors in a deliberate and brigandish manner to achieve certain political and military aims because only 46 soldiers met miserable deaths while officers survived the case.

This being a hard reality, they are pointing a dirty accusing finger at us like a thief crying "Stop the thief!"

It is a trite method of the successive south Korean puppet regimes to fake up a shocking case and use it for floating a story about "north wind" whenever they find themselves in a crisis.

These days they are using for this plot even "deserters from the north" who had found their ways to a dumping ground and human scum.

The National Defence Commission of the DPRK responsible for the defence of the country and the security of the nation clarifies the principled stand of our army and people in view of the grave situation where the sinister plot of the group of traitors may lead to reckless actions against us.

1. As the group of traitors declared that the sinking of the warship "Cheonan" is linked with us, the NDC of the DPRK will dispatch an inspection group to the spot of south Korea to verify material evidence concerning the linkage. The group of traitors should produce before the dignified inspection group of the DPRK material evidence proving that the sinking of the warship is linked with us. We remind the group of traitors in advance that there should be not a shred of doubt about the material evidence to be produced before the inspection group.

2. Our army and people will promptly react to any "punishment" and "retaliation" and to any "sanctions" infringing upon our state interests with various forms of tough measures including an all-out war.

The all-out war to be undertaken by us will be a sacred war involving the whole nation, all the people and the whole state for completely eliminating the strongholds of the group of traitors who orchestrated "the conspiratorial farce" and "charade" and their followers and building instead a reunified power in which the whole nation emerges powerful and prosperous.

The tough countermeasures to be taken by us will prove to be practical actions of justice for dealing unpredictable sledge-hammer blows at the group of traitors who blocks national reconciliation and unity and stirs up an atmosphere of confrontation in the south Korean society.

3. Now that the group of traitors declared what it called "decisive actions", we will brand any small incident that occurs in the territorial waters, air and land where our sovereignty is exercised including the West Sea of Korea as a provocation of confrontation maniacs and react to it with unlimited retaliatory blow, merciless strong physical blow.

It is our invariable iron will to react to "retaliation" with more powerful retaliation and to "punishment" with indiscriminate punishment of our style.

Availing ourselves of this opportunity, we sternly warn the U.S. and Japanese authorities and riff-raffs, their poor lackeys, to act with discretion.

The world will clearly see what dear price the group of traitors will have to pay for the clumsy "conspiratorial farce" and "charade" concocted to stifle compatriots.

[Starport]

Where the hell do you come up with shit like that?

Comrade - some polite advice - first start any discussion, debate, polemic, or argument (in your head and mouth) with a vicious proletarian partisan attack on the degenerate imperialist capitalist scum who are the power on this planet at present.

If you do not start with that, you are not ever going to understand or be a part of the class struggle.

[Starport]

That's a little bit harsh comrade.
Don't engage into "my theoretic line should be everyone's theoretic line". Why not? If your theoretical line is crap it should be exposed as such. As Marx did it.


This is rev(olutionary)left and we'll need to get a long, for sake of anti-capitalist struggle at least

Gizz a kiss and everything will be fine.



It's very clear - IF (possibility is on the rise) North and South engage in full blown war, who would you support?

Communists do not get traped by stupid provocateurs like you into "supporting" or "condemning" anti-imperialist states and their fights. Our job is to join in the ATTACK on imperialism and give the best internationalist communist theoretical leadership that we can manage. Sorry its not a perfect answer for your idealist thinking.



Both potential answers ("south" or "neither") you're about to use will definitely make you a twat, go take a shot ;)

Sorry that you are not as intelligent arguing these points as you think you are, or would like to be, but keep putting up your daft remakes and we will try to answer them.

[Antifa94]

Honestly, Starport, you can stop being so harsh..you just joined the site. There's no reason to be an arse, there aren't any fascists here that would warrant such vehemence.

[Rusty Shackleford]

For fuck's sake Vacant the Green revolution is a legitimate movement that isn't being funded by the bourgeoisie, hence the fact that it has fizzled out. When America fuels a rebellion, it is known and there is action i.e. Central America 1960-1991

what would happen if the greens had won? The imperialists would have most likely won new markets and a new people to dominate. it would have then been game over for Syria and Palestine as well.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Comrade - some polite advice - first start any discussion, debate, polemic, or argument (in your head and mouth) with a vicious proletarian partisan attack on the degenerate imperialist capitalist scum who are the power on this planet at present.

If you do not start with that, you are not ever going to understand or be a part of the class struggle.

I never started a discussion without such, I merely pointed out my views on how, if we are to not support the DPRK within the times that are coming, then it'll be a blow against us, the working class, if they are to lose to the capitalist-imperialists. I'd recommend you to calm down a little bit & learn to approach others with better respect, or you won't "understand or be a part of the class struggle."

[punisa]

Why not? If your theoretical line is crap it should be exposed as such. As Marx did it.


Right, proletariats of the narrow conformity unite :laugh:



Sorry that you are not as intelligent arguing these points as you think you are, or would like to be, but keep putting up your daft remakes and we will try to answer them.

Never claimed to be all that intelligent, but thanks for noticing :lol:
But I do still posses that tiny bit of inteligence to realise that every pro-DPRK comment I make will be vigorously smashed as soon as they appear.

Anyhow, I understand that. And I don't blame you (and the others) for doing so.
We need idealists and couldn't be around after all these years if it wasn't for you guys (us? sometimes).

You mention Marx, ok. This would be a simple guideline for understanding NK from a Marxist perspective:
1) read up what Karl wrote
2) research current and historical processes that made Korean peninsula the way it is today

Don't take me for some Juche maniac, I'm the first one that would simply love to meed up with crazy Kim and tell him a thing or twenty about huge mistakes he is making and how it deviates the red colour in general.
No matter how I'd like that, it's not very feasible.
Just as the whole vision of NK as a Marxist paradise is not feasible.

So that's what we are left with - a loony regime with some amazing socialist art.
But it's STILL a bastion of anti-imperialism and I respect it for what it is.

The "solution" for NK is NOT the introduction of "freedom" of speech, multi party elections, "democracy" <put in random western terms in here> etc.
NK must be carried back (or forth) towards the idealism that many here mention.

It would be a million times easier to bring about a true socialist government, the one that you all advocate, to NK rather then SK.
This is an opportunity, but it will not happen from within. Solution that will work for NK is larger scale shift towards socialism in Asia, Europe.. the world.



So, punisa, if NK alone took over all the peninsula (not going to happen unless the Southern masses support it) without the backing of the PRC or the USSR (now defunct) what would happen? I can't imagine it'd be a very good transition. The whole peninsula would be cut off probably, the South Korean export industry would fall and the South would likely get raided for its industry. I would like SK to share that industry, but if NK's govt took over, we would likely see chauvinism and a very difficult period of inactivity while parts were moved northwards and trade ceased.


It could be one of the scenarios, yes.
But if reunification could result in expulsion of imperialist forces, maybe the future would not be all that bleak.
Korean peninsula is heavily militarized, this could eventually lead towards the de-militarization.

We are living in a period of sharp declining markets and it could result in major fail of capitalism.
Such scenario might engage masses of South Korea to take charge over their destinies, but it doesn't mean that by doing so they must merge with their hardcore Northern neighbour.
In fact, a socialist revolution in South Korea (no matter how strange this sounds) would create a melting pot between two ideologies on the peninsula and would probably give back some decent results.

[scarletghoul]

There is no good in fantasising about any Korean war erupting soon. If it does it will surely be a huge bloodbath, much bigger than Iraq or Afghanistan. These are 2 very strong and huge armies. Plus there's no way America would simply hand over one of the largest economies in the world, you can be sure of a massive US campaign of death and destruction, and maybe even nuclear war (the americans very nearly did use nukes in the last korean war). It would also last for ages.. And I just dont think thats a price worth paying, even if it brings about a united korea with socialism. A revolution is not a dinner party, but that doesn't mean it has to be a holocaust..

[Monkey Riding Dragon]

In order to correctly understand what's going on here with this incident, it's necessary to grasp the objective situation.

First of all, yes it would appear that hard evidence can be produced to suggest that North Korea fired a torpedo. This was likely a quiet revenge attack against South Korea for the latter's mass murder of North Koreans in a naval exchange in the same area late last year in particular. Or it could be, as some have suggested, from Pyongyang's perspective, simply a matter of defending their national territory against intrusion. Whatever precisely the case is in that regard, it's obvious that South Korea's military is seizing on this as an opportunity to try and provoke some sort of high-profile confrontation, be it military or diplomatic. A deeper grasp of this situation, however, requires us to go further back.

North Korea was never a socialist country (though it was briefly aligned with the socialist camp) and became a puppet state of the Soviet empire from the mid-1950s, following the counterrevolution in the Soviet Union led first and foremost by Khrushchev. Throughout the duration of the Cold War (at least in an overall sense), both the Koreas (both puppets of one or the other imperialist superpower) increasingly became police states.

Following the Soviet empire's collapse, North Korea, having already been long bankrupted by its rather one-sided relationship to the USSR, spiraled into a perpetual recession. This recession situation prompted the country's new monarch to begin pursuing new policies. It was at this juncture that the role of the military, especially in civic society, began to be greatly elevated to a whole new level with the inception of the "songun" (military first) policy. It was also at this juncture that North Korea began seeking out a new trade patron, initially seeming to find one in South Korea. A number of steps were taken toward the trajectory of opening up to more foreign investment, and particularly to investment from South Korea. Among these steps were the introduction of a right to own private property in the North's 1998 constitution, the famous 2000 agreement between the North and the South to re-unify the Korean Peninsula peacefully, and the introduction of new and much more lenient investment rules in 2002, as well as the birthing of 'special economic zones' and North-South joint ventures during this general period of time. Then along came George W. Bush.

In 2002, U.S. President Bush declared North Korea's government part of an "axis of evil" that had to be vanquished from the world, together with those of Iraq and Iran. Shortly thereafter, an official U.S. policy of "preemptive aggression" was introduced, and America's nuclear weapons were "pre-targeted" to aim at various countries, including North Korea. Later that year, Bush alleged that North Korea's second uranium enrichment program violated international law (despite the fact that the U.S. had never held up its end of the 1995 bargain by normalizing relations and providing light water reactors) and cut off oil shipments to the country, thereby engineering a crisis. Pyongyang took all these signals, but particularly the latter, with alarm and withdrew from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, seeing a need to weaponize its program to serve as a deterrent against invasion. The U.S. was unable to quickly 'get around' to Kim Jong Il, however, because its military became unexpectedly bogged down in the Middle East. Thus the situation between Washington and Pyongyang stagnated for some time. Finally, the U.S., Japan, and South Korea led forward a major UN effort in 2006 to declare a severe round of economic sanctions on North Korea in protest of their first nuclear bomb test. These sanctions were particularly crippling for North Korea and, as a result, the regime conceded to U.S. pressure (exerted by way of China) early the following year and agreed to give up its nuclear program in totality. The terms of this new agreement were similar to those of the 1995 agreement: North Korea agreed to give up its nuclear program in exchange for the normalization of relations with the U.S. and the delivery of replacement energy. It's worth pointing out that North Korea was sincere in holding up its end of this new bargain. They in fact completed most of the steps assigned to them as terms of the deal. But soon a crisis on multiple fronts developed to scuttle the effort.

South Korea's newly-ascendant, fascist Grand National Party (the political descendant of the party responsible for the decades-long period of martial law) quickly made clear its belligerent hostility toward Pyongyang by cutting off food aid. (South Korea had previously been the North's primary source of much-needed food deliveries.) After the U.S. belatedly agreed to remove North Korea from its blacklist of "terrorist states", Japan refused to continue participating in the six-party process. Finally, after the America and North Korea ran into a disagreement over confirmation procedures, the former once again cut off oil deliveries to the latter, violating the basic terms of the agreement. North Korea's regime seemed to stall a little while after that, perhaps waiting to see if the incipient Obama Administration might change the American foreign policy more in their favor. But after Obama made his first acts in office the imposition of sanctions against two additional North Korean companies, they seemed to get the message that the relations between their two countries weren't about to improve.

North Korea responded with a number of protests, including closing the border with South Korea and conducting a missile test (thinly disguised as a satellite launch, such as to get around the 2006 UN resolution barring them from conducting missile tests). When the UN, in an initiative once again led forward by Japan, South Korea, and the United States, responded to the missile test by imposing a still further round of economic sanctions, Pyongyang was outraged and protested, as we'll all remember, in quite a loud fashion. They withdrew from the six-party talks (pledging to "never return") and from the truce that suspended Korean War hostilities in 1953, conducted a second nuclear bomb test, as well as a flurry of additional missile tests, and of course proceeded with the standard kidnapping of strategically selected foreigners on their soil. Before too long, however (as in by the end of the summer), they had backed off on their pledge to "never return" to the six-party talks, re-opened the border with South Korea, freed a couple foreign journalists in question, and made a number of other conciliatory gestures, transparently showing their growing economic desperation.

In order to kick-start domestic production in light of the failure of the agreement and in light of the latest round of sanctions, new, record-length work speedup periods were introduced. And to combat rising inflation (a product of diminishing supplies of much-needed durables such as food and clothing), a short-lived currency revaluation scheme was brought forward. The latter caused disaster by disrupting the black markets that singularly supply many of people's needs (at outrageous prices, of course), producing even greater shortages of basic necessities and, correspondingly, runaway inflation. (In capitalist economics, supply has an inverse relationship to price: the larger the supply of a given item available, the lower its price will be, and vice versa.) To capture the degree of disaster, the won had previously been measured at an exchange rate of 20 won to the U.S. dollar. Just six months later, it now goes at a rate of 2,500 won to the dollar on the black market. A number of small-scale rebellions have taken place in North Korea since late last year against the inflation situation. China has recently (as in earlier this year) reached an investment deal with North Korea worth $10 billion...i.e. 70 percent of North Korea's economy. These arrangements will transform North Korea into an outright puppet regime of China, which is now becoming an imperialist country in its own right. It would seem Kim Jong Il has given up on building a strong trade relationship with Seoul in the immediate future and decided to go with Beijing instead at this point. I bring this up only to contextualize this sea development with North Korea's desperate internal situation.

Since the Grand National Party came to power in South Korea, the regime there has been nothing but hostile toward the North. After cutting off food aid and endorsing the 2009 round of sanctions, they once again fought an actual naval battle against the North in which reportedly dozens of North Koreans were killed or injured. Since the start of the year, the tenseness of the situation has increased greatly. South Korea has, since the start of the year, threatened to launch "preemptive" attacks of its own on the North and has unilaterally declared a 'one Korea, one system' policy. North Korea, by contrast, remains officially committed to the peaceful reunification of the peninsula and to getting back into the six-party talks. This, I think, explains why they'd seek to avoid actual implication in this recent torpedo strike, even while perhaps hoping to stir speculation as a form of protest against South Korea's belligerent policies vis-a-vis the North. I doubt very seriously that Kim Jong Il wants a new war right now. Given their internal situation (as I think you can see), a new war with the South at this juncture might well pave the way for a general domestic uprising. No, they're hoping to have a number of new construction projects completed by 2012 to show off their achievements as a commemoration of Kim Il Sung's 100th birthday...and, in that way, cash in on their "communist" credentials by attracting more foreign investment and tourists. Now South Korea on the other hand is worth watching carefully. It seems apparent that they (and especially their military) are trying quite hard to provoke further imperialist condemnation of the North and perhaps even a war with the North.

At present, there is no (sincere) communist option on the Korean Peninsula. One needs urgently to be built. A correct orientation for Korean communists (on both sides of the DMZ) would be one favoring the revolutionary reunification of the peninsula as a people's republic and seeing in any eruption of renewed war between the South and the North an opening for such a revolution.

[empiredestoryer]

its not the south koreans that run their half of a country its the good ole u.s.a

[Monkey Riding Dragon]

I realize that, of course, and didn't mean to imply otherwise. In fact, I recall stating that South Korea, for as long as it has been South Korea, has always been a U.S. puppet regime.

[Old Major Junior]

There is no good in fantasising about any Korean war erupting soon. If it does it will surely be a huge bloodbath, much bigger than Iraq or Afghanistan. These are 2 very strong and huge armies. Plus there's no way America would simply hand over one of the largest economies in the world, you can be sure of a massive US campaign of death and destruction, and maybe even nuclear war (the americans very nearly did use nukes in the last korean war). It would also last for ages.. And I just dont think thats a price worth paying, even if it brings about a united korea with socialism. A revolution is not a dinner party, but that doesn't mean it has to be a holocaust..
North Korea could well have violated a truce, and the subsequent U.N punishment would almost inevitably provoke a reaction from the former. Many of us knew this saga would erupt many years ago, most notably Peter Lemesurier, there is the absolute possibility this could erupt into a third “World War”, North Korea have always been stated by many to involve themselves in such an imminent “war”. What this possible third “World War” will do, assuming the capitalist bodies win, is strengthen the possibility of a one world government, something the media is being pushed to promote at present. The Korean “war” has technically never ended anyway, what I believe will let North Korea down in a possible conflict is their Soviet style aircraft, and inability to fire their potentially eight nuclear warheads. The U.S.A will absolutely involve themselves, but it will be interesting to see what way China swings in the upcoming time frames, Russia could also be a big hitter in such a “war”, I believe their presence could thrust China behind North Korea, as the Russians planned to nuke China in 1969. I do think that if the U.S.A were pushed to deploy its entire might, it would crush North Korea in a very short period of time. There would be no doubt however, that the U.S.A would prolong a “war”, to facilitate their population control among other things. I do believe a “war” would be worth it, as the U.S.A have been allowed to roam and control the globe freely since the U.S.S.R collapsed.

[bots]

In order to correctly understand what's going on here with this incident, it's necessary to grasp the objective situation...

...At present, their is no (sincere) communist option on the Korean Peninsula. One needs urgently to be built. A correct orientation for Korean communists (on both sides of the DMZ) would be one favoring the revolutionary reunification of the peninsula as a people's republic and seeing in any eruption of renewed war between the South and the North an opening for such a revolution.


Now that is some grade A homework. Hope you don't mind if I print this off and give it to a couple of friends.

[The Vegan Marxist]

In order to kick-start domestic production in light of the failure of the agreement and in light of the latest round of sanctions, new, record-length work speedup periods were introduced. And to combat rising inflation (a product of diminishing supplies of much-needed durables such as food and clothing), a short-lived currency revaluation scheme was brought forward. The latter caused disaster by disrupting the black markets that singularly supply many of people's needs (at outrageous prices, of course), producing even greater shortages of basic necessities and, correspondingly, runaway inflation. (In capitalist economics, supply has an inverse relationship to price: the larger the supply of a given item available, the lower its price will be, and vice versa.) To capture the degree of disaster, the won had previously been measured at an exchange rate of 20 won to the U.S. dollar. Just six months later, it now goes at a rate of 2,500 won to the dollar on the black market. A number of small-scale rebellions have taken place in North Korea since late last year against the inflation situation. China has recently (as in earlier this year) reached an investment deal with North Korea worth $10 billion...i.e. 70 percent of North Korea's economy. These arrangements will transform North Korea into an outright puppet regime of China, which is now becoming an imperialist country in its own right. It would seem Kim Jong Il has given up on building a strong trade relationship with Seoul in the immediate future and decided to go with Beijing instead at this point. I bring this up only to contextualize this sea development with North Korea's desperate internal situation.



I must say, I really enjoyed reading the article you made on the developments of North Korea, & used such developments & history to give a justifiable reason on why to believe North Korea didn't fire the torpedo's. But there's one thing that you said that left kind of scratching my head, & it's in bold as you can see above. I'd like to know when this even happened & where exactly is China occupying?

As much as I dislike China & its capitalist developments, I must say that China is rather the opposite. They're actually anti-imperialist, and they use such views as their way in making profit. Look at who they're doing business with. They're selling oil & conducting trades with Venezuela, Bolivia, & Cuba. And they're also sending thousands of doctors to third world countries & willingly helping out with whatever they can. Instead of allowing imperialist occupations taking place, in which would be present if China wasn't there for places like Cuba & Venezuela, China is using its services, as an anti-imperialist, yet capitalist, to create a profit, in which is being gained by those countries they're helping out.

[RedStarOverChina]

I must say, I really enjoyed reading the article you made on the developments of North Korea, & used such developments & history to give a justifiable reason on why to believe North Korea didn't fire the torpedo's. But there's one thing that you said that left kind of scratching my head, & it's in bold as you can see above. I'd like to know when this even happened & where exactly is China occupying?

As much as I dislike China & its capitalist developments, I must say that China is rather the opposite. They're actually anti-imperialist, and they use such views as their way in making profit. Look at who they're doing business with. They're selling oil & conducting trades with Venezuela, Bolivia, & Cuba. And they're also sending thousands of doctors to third world countries & willingly helping out with whatever they can. Instead of allowing imperialist occupations taking place, in which would be present if China wasn't there for places like Cuba & Venezuela, China is using its services, as an anti-imperialist, yet capitalist, to create a profit, in which is being gained by those countries they're helping out.
I think what we're looking at is a new imperialist paradigm that is radically different from that of the US. It will no doubt evolve into imperialism, but what that imperialism will look like, I am not so sure. It seems that at least they will not be hawkishly invading other countries the way US does.

[punisa]

Now South Korea on the other hand is worth watching carefully. It seems apparent that they (and especially their military) are trying quite hard to provoke further imperialist condemnation of the North and perhaps even a war with the North.

Very good and detailed overview of recent developments, congrarts Monkey Riding Dragon.

Question - what do you think, why would the south be interested in provoking a war?
I've read in local newspapers today that there is a high opinion in South (and US) that NK is crippled and could be overrun within weeks, stating that there are millions and millions of North Koreans who would defect towards the South and would completely refuse to fight for Kim.

Is this is a possible scenario we could expect?

[Monkey Riding Dragon]

The Vegan Marxist wrote:
I must say, I really enjoyed reading the article you made on the developments of North Korea, & used such developments & history to give a justifiable reason on why to believe North Korea didn't fire the torpedo's.While I appreciate the compliments on my earlier post, I would point out that you've misread key aspects of it. Taking a read to the earlier paragraphs in that post makes clear that I indeed believe that realistically North Korea did fire a torpedo. In the latter part of my post, when I had worked my way back up to a direct address of the current situation again, I was pointing out why they (North Korea) formally denied any involvement. I wasn't suggesting they (again, North Korea) were telling the truth. The essential point I was making was that they were trying to if you will 'commit the perfect attack' that wouldn't be traced to them...as opposed to, for example, actually trying to start a war (in which case they wouldn't realistically have concealed their involvement). I was pointing out that it's been South Korea that has demonstrated a possible interest in actually starting a war and that the significance of North Korea's attack is being overstated in our press.


But there's one thing that you said that left kind of scratching my head, & it's in bold as you can see above. I'd like to know when this even happened & where exactly is China occupying?To clarify this, I meant to suggest that the process of China becoming an imperialist country was a sort of work in progress, not yet an accomplished fact per se. If we add up several factors, we can see this trend developing:

-In the last decade, China's number of powerful home-grown capitalists has increased exponentially.

-In recent years, China has unveiled its acquisition of large foreign currency reserves that give it real leverage against established imperialist powers.

-China has been building up its military muscle to quite a pronounced degree in recent years.

-They've begun a protracted process of 'scooping up', economically speaking, a lot the areas in Asia that the U.S. has had to "neglect" (so to speak) as a result of getting bogged down in the Middle East in its global war of terror. I cited North Korea itself as a fresh example. But I would also point to Burma as another. And China is making real inroads on U.S. influence in Vietnam, Laos, and Thailand for example. They're beginning to invest in Iran in earnest. And we could go on. Slowly but surely they're building up real economic muscle and influence throughout the whole region. This isn't "anti-imperialism". It's domination of foreign countries. There is no such thing as sincere anti-imperialism that isn't motivated by a communist trajectory.

We should be on the lookout for China to start getting more assertive and aggressive in both foreign and domestic policy, both diplomatically and militarily.


punisa wrote:
Question - what do you think, why would the south be interested in provoking a war?The more fundamental question might be why the United States would be interested in provoking a war, since the U.S. basically runs South Korea. The answer that immediately leaps to my mind is 'to curb China's growing influence in the region and as part of ensuring East Asia's subordination to America'. But this isn't to say there will be a war. I'm not completely convinced the Obama Administration wants South Korea to initiate a war that we might 'have' to resolve with our already-occupied military. But the people who currently are at the head of South Korea's government are fascists in the mold of those currently heading up the Israeli government. They regard North Korea in much the same way the Israeli government regards the Gaza Strip; as 'their' territory to be conquered. They might even try and act regardless of Washington's approval or disapproval.


I've read in local newspapers today that there is a high opinion in South (and US) that NK is crippled and could be overrun within weeks, stating that there are millions and millions of North Koreans who would defect towards the South and would completely refuse to fight for Kim.

Is this is a possible scenario we could expect?It's possible, but I'm not sure I'd just "expect" it. War would destabilize the whole region and things could unfold in any number of unpredictable ways. I don't pretend to have the answers.

[Communist]

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http://web.mail.com/31888-111/mmc-2/en-us/mail/get-attachment.aspx?uid=1.29524063&folder=Inbox&partId=8 (http://www.korea-dpr.com/)



June 12.2010


No. 0030



NDC Spokesman Slams Reference of "Cheonan" Case to UN (http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2010/201006/news11/20100611-19ee.html)


Pyongyang, June 11 (KCNA (http://www.kcna.co.jp/e-news.html)) -- A spokesman for the National Defence Commission of the DPRK had already officially clarified the principled stand of the army and people of the DPRK on the sinking case of the south Korean puppet navy's warship in waters of the West Sea of Korea.

He also dismissed the assertion of the south Korean group of traitors that the ship was sunk by a torpedo attack of the DPRK and the "results of investigation" faked up to support it as a sheer anti-DPRK "conspiratorial farce" and a "charade".

The political, social, academic and press circles of south Korea, favoring the principled stand of the DPRK, are growing increasingly suspicious about the "results of investigation" announced by the "joint investigation team" in which it claimed it was done on an objective and scientific basis.

There is even strong opinion that the ship was sunk by the U.S.

Not only China closely following the situation around it but also Russia which dispatched an investigation group to the spot of south Korea assert that it is difficult to find out any evidence proving that the ship was sunk by a torpedo of the DPRK.

The group of traitors, however, went the lengths of bringing the investigation results to the UN, the far-fetched assertion that the ship sinking was linked with the DPRK.

The spokesman gave the following answer to a question raised by KCNA Friday in this regard:

The development proves that the group of traitors has finally gone into action against the DPRK at the instigation of its master, defying our warnings.

Accordingly, the army and people of the DPRK will take merciless counter-actions as it had already clarified internally and externally because the group dared opt for infringing upon the dignity and security of the army and people of the DPRK and its supreme interests.

The army of the DPRK is a powerful revolutionary army of Mt. Paektu which does not make any empty talk.

Availing ourselves of this opportunity, we will closely watch once again how the UNSC whose basic mission is to ensure global peace and security will react to the "conspiratorial farce" and "charade" orchestrated by the group of traitors.

People still remember that the UN, yielding to the U.S. high-handed and arbitrary practices, recognized the "existence of weapons of mass destruction", a fiction, and okayed its gangster-like armed invasion of Iraq.

The UN should no longer allow itself to be reduced to a platform for tolerating such unjust anti-DPRK "conspiratorial farce" and "charade".

There is no reason whatsoever for the group of traitors to refuse to receive the inspection group of the NDC if the results of the investigation into the case are objective and scientific enough to be referred to the UN forum.

The DPRK remains unchanged in its strong demand that the group of traitors receive its inspection group without delay and produce evidence without a shred of doubt in its eyes.

The group of traitors will never be able to escape a miserable end mired in the pitfall of "conspiratorial farce" and "charade" orchestrated by itself.


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[Communist]

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.There's no reason why the NDC shouldn't be looking at this. Bullshit...


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