Civil Liberties in the UK under Cameron/Clegg

[The Idler]

The Independent suggest Nick Clegg is bidding for a place in history (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/clegg-makes-his-bid-for-a-place-in-history-1976426.html#) with policies to repeal restrictions on the right to protest, scrap ID cards, reviewing libel laws to protect freedom of speech, bonfire of new laws, no new criminal offences etc. Puts all the auto-Labourites pleas to "Vote Labour!" as the only "left-wing" party to shame really.

[Spawn of Stalin]

This is a big part of the reason why I am so opposed to voting Labour, sure they are marginally better on the issue of workers and trade unions, but I have never had any doubt that Labour are the worst party when it comes to civil liberties. Although they have effectively put this country well on its way to becoming a police state, there really is nothing Labour could do that would stop some "socialists" from voting for them. I actually put this question to a CPB member a few weeks before the election, what could Labour do that would stop you from voting for them? She was speechless, because she knew that Labour had already destroyed the already pathetic trade union movement, killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi and Afghan workers, continued the occupation of the six counties, and destroyed any shred of freedom we had before they won their election in 1997. There is no excuse for voting Labour, whether old or new, Jeremy Corbyn or Jack Straw, none of them deserve our votes. Please remember this in the next election folks.

[ed miliband]

This is a big part of the reason why I am so opposed to voting Labour, sure they are marginally better on the issue of workers and trade unions, but I have never had any doubt that Labour are the worst party when it comes to civil liberties. Although they have effectively put this country well on its way to becoming a police state, there really is nothing Labour could do that would stop some "socialists" from voting for them. I actually put this question to a CPB member a few weeks before the election, what could Labour do that would stop you from voting for them? She was speechless, because she knew that Labour had already destroyed the already pathetic trade union movement, killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi and Afghan workers, continued the occupation of the six counties, and destroyed any shred of freedom we had before they won their election in 1997. There is no excuse for voting Labour, whether old or new, Jeremy Corbyn or Jack Straw, none of them deserve our votes. Please remember this in the next election folks.

I honestly think that even this is debatable now. I remember reading that in 1997 Blair boasted about Britain having the strictest trade union laws in western Europe, and saying that even the small reforms New Labour would make would not change that, and did Thatcher not support New Labour at one point? It's incredible really. (Although the other parties are obviously not better on worker's rights).

I'm actually more confused by Labour supporters than any other political group. They can never give a reason why I should support Labour other than mentioning what they aren't: Tories. There's only so long people can cling to this idea that one party is moderately better than the other before it becomes a reprehensible act (i.e. when people are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan).

[Starport]

I'm actually more confused by Labour supporters than any other political group. They can never give a reason why I should support Labour other than mentioning what they aren't: Tories. There's only so long people can cling to this idea that one party is moderately better than the other before it becomes a reprehensible act (i.e. when people are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan).

Can I ask you a simple question. Have you read the extraordinarily brilliant commentaries by Lenin on all this about the British Labor Party? Then do you think it is of any relevance to the preset situation?

[Zanthorus]

Then do you think it is of any relevance to the preset situation?

A tract written 90 years ago which advocated voting for the labour party on the basis that they still hadn't been exposed as anti-worker and needed to get into power in order to do so to shatter workers illusions in social-democratic reformism?

It's sort of lost a lot of relevancy in the intervening years...

[Boru]

This is a big part of the reason why I am so opposed to voting Labour, sure they are marginally better on the issue of workers and trade unions, but I have never had any doubt that Labour are the worst party when it comes to civil liberties. Although they have effectively put this country well on its way to becoming a police state, there really is nothing Labour could do that would stop some "socialists" from voting for them. I actually put this question to a CPB member a few weeks before the election, what could Labour do that would stop you from voting for them? She was speechless, because she knew that Labour had already destroyed the already pathetic trade union movement, killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi and Afghan workers, continued the occupation of the six counties, and destroyed any shred of freedom we had before they won their election in 1997. There is no excuse for voting Labour, whether old or new, Jeremy Corbyn or Jack Straw, none of them deserve our votes. Please remember this in the next election folks.

It depends who you're voting for in your own constituency.
The Labour you're speaking of is New Labour.

Besides, Labour is the British Left if we're being honest here.
To suggest there is a developed or developing alternative is ridiculous given the election results we saw.

[The Grey Blur]

To equate Corbyn with Straw is the sort of stuff I expect from a delusional Stalinist troll.

The OP has an avatar of a liberal and the attitude of a liberal towards politics. I wonder how far Clegg will stick to his bourgeois liberal values of 'freedom of assembly' if workers gathered outside parliament tomorrow to overthrow the government? I wonder what the thinks of the high courts overturning the BA workers' right to strike? Liberals disgust me, and the ultra-left attitude towards the working-class who are members and vote for Labour is also disgusting.

[ed miliband]

To equate Corbyn with Straw is the sort of stuff I expect from a delusional Stalinist troll.

The OP has an avatar of a liberal and the attitude of a liberal towards politics. I wonder how far Clegg will stick to his bourgeois liberal values of 'freedom of assembly' if workers gathered outside parliament tomorrow to overthrow the government? I wonder what the thinks of the high courts overturning the BA workers' right to strike? Liberals disgust me, and the ultra-left attitude towards the working-class who are members and vote for Labour is also disgusting.

Most of the Labour 'tribalists' I've met actually have a very odd attitude towards the working-class and seem to think of Labour as a party in the mould of the US Democrats. A few I've met seem to hold the view that the working-class are uneducated, irrational and bigoted, and thus in need of enlightenment that will allow them to better themselves. Others seem to not really believe that the working-class exist, but that there are poor people, middle people and rich people, and the poor people should have conditions made more bareable for them, but little else. I've mostly met liberals, and then I've met a few who are very knowledgable about left-wing politics and want to "take over from the inside", as it were. If anything, this suggests that the Labour party is incredibly divided, and I should expect we will see more signs of this in months to come.

How many working-class people are actually members of the Labour party, though? Membership of political parties is almost a rarity these days, and I was under the impression that it was the reserve of the chattering classes. Working class people do vote for the Labour party, yeah, but some also vote for the Conservatives, others vote for the Lib Dems, a few might vote for the BNP. I don't think it shows a disgusting attitude towards the working-class to express a deep unease with a particular (or, indeed, all) political party(ies).

[Crux]

It depends who you're voting for in your own constituency.
The Labour you're speaking of is New Labour.

Besides, Labour is the British Left if we're being honest here.
To suggest there is a developed or developing alternative is ridiculous given the election results we saw.
You don't need to be ultra-left to call for a break with Labour. And, no it's not all about the votes, it's a bout the longterm work in the unions, workplaces, schools, universities, communities and in the streets. The Labour left that remains, and the unions, need to break with labour, it might not happen tommorow but this has to be our longterm goal IF a real workingclass based socialist left is ever to be built in britain. Labour is a dead end.

[Boru]

Most of the Labour 'tribalists' I've met actually have a very odd attitude towards the working-class and seem to think of Labour as a party in the mould of the US Democrats. A few I've met seem to hold the view that the working-class are uneducated, irrational and bigoted, and thus in need of enlightenment that will allow them to better themselves. Others seem to not really believe that the working-class exist, but that there are poor people, middle people and rich people, and the poor people should have conditions made more bareable for them, but little else. I've mostly met liberals, and then I've met a few who are very knowledgable about left-wing politics and want to "take over from the inside", as it were. If anything, this suggests that the Labour party is incredibly divided, and I should expect we will see more signs of this in months to come.

The British Labour Party is considered by itself and by observers such as myself to be a "broad church" type party. In this respect, it is like the American Democratic Party. The problems with Labour can be attributed to this, as the dominant faction is the New Labour Blairites' Brigade.

Given the shock to New Labour's politics recently, a resurgeance for democratic socialists and trade unionists should be possible.


You don't need to be ultra-left to call for a break with Labour. And, no it's not all about the votes, it's a bout the longterm work in the unions, workplaces, schools, universities, communities and in the streets. The Labour left that remains, and the unions, need to break with labour, it might not happen tommorow but this has to be our longterm goal IF a real workingclass based socialist left is ever to be built in britain. Labour is a dead end.

Trade unions leave Labour?
What possible use could that have other than to hand "the middle class" to a social democratic party with no vision for a new society.

While the movement would have more independence, it would be fundamentally weakened. That's generally the problem with splitting.

[ComradeOm]

The Independent suggest Nick Clegg is bidding for a place in history (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/clegg-makes-his-bid-for-a-place-in-history-1976426.html#) with policies to repeal restrictions on the right to protest, scrap ID cards, reviewing libel laws to protect freedom of speech, bonfire of new laws, no new criminal offences etc. Puts all the auto-Labourites pleas to "Vote Labour!" as the only "left-wing" party to shame really.Leaving aside the "auto-Labourite" stuff, how exactly does any of the above translate into the LibDems being a "left-wing party"? Both Clegg and that article have explicitly name-checked the Reform Act of 1832 and I fail to see anyone rushing to proclaim the Whigs as a "left-wing party"


Given the shock to New Labour's politics recently, a resurgeance for democratic socialists and trade unionists should be possibleAnd even if such efforts were successful you would simply end up in control of a "broad church party". The idea that such an organisation could play any sort of revolutionary role is pretty outdated

[Crux]

The British Labour Party is considered by itself and by observers such as myself to be a "broad church" type party. In this respect, it is like the American Democratic Party. The problems with Labour can be attributed to this, as the dominant faction is the New Labour Blairites' Brigade.

Given the shock to New Labour's politics recently, a resurgeance for democratic socialists and trade unionists should be possible.



Trade unions leave Labour?
What possible use could that have other than to hand "the middle class" to a social democratic party with no vision for a new society.

While the movement would have more independence, it would be fundamentally weakened. That's generally the problem with splitting.
New Labour is not a worker's party, it's hardly even a social democratic party, whatever that means these days. Therefore our task is the same as those who pioneered the worker's movement, to build new workingclass formation, on a marxist program, capable of seizing power.

[The Grey Blur]

That's the CWI's opinion, millions of working-class people showed that opinion to be false at the election.


And even if such efforts were successful you would simply end up in control of a "broad church party". The idea that such an organisation could play any sort of revolutionary role is pretty outdated
The idea of building anything outside the mass parties of the working-class is the outdated one, I think it was Engels who defined the difference between utopian and scientific socialists...noone is saying Labour will be a revolutionary party, but that it is a workers' party and that is where marxists must operate.

[ed miliband]

Millions of workers a Catholics, that does not make Catholicism a worker's religion.

[Crux]

That's the CWI's opinion, millions of working-class people showed that opinion to be false at the election.


The idea of building anything outside the mass parties of the working-class is the outdated one, I think it was Engels who defined the difference between utopian and scientific socialists...noone is saying Labour will be a revolutionary party, but that it is a workers' party and that is where marxists must operate.
Millions of worker voters swung to the liberal democrats, does that make the liberal democrats a worker's party?

Why? What innate value in the present day Labour, other than history, makes them a worker's party? And speaking of Engels, I very much believe that he, along with Marx, called for the building of independent parties of the workingclass (as opposed to latching on to the "friends of labour" in the liberal parties).

[Spawn of Stalin]

It depends who you're voting for in your own constituency.
The Labour you're speaking of is New Labour.

Besides, Labour is the British Left if we're being honest here.
To suggest there is a developed or developing alternative is ridiculous given the election results we saw.

Personally I reject the existence of an old or a new Labour, Labour have always been a bourgeois imperialist party who have pretty consistently been pro-war and have openly opposed most industrial actions. New Labour was invented to renew the party, to give off the illusion that the failings of old Labour were behind us. Old Labour is a nostalgic term usually used by social democrats who call themselves anti-capitalists to justify a vote for the Labour Party. I wouldn't vote for a Labour candidate full stop, I wouldn't vote for an old Labour candidate, and I wouldn't vote for a new Labour candidate. I don't care how progressive they are or they seem to be, because if they're so damn progressive, then what are they doing in one of the most reactionary parties we have ever seen in this country? Why don't they join a real socialist party? Oh that's right, there's no money to be made in real socialist parties, no champagne dinners, no holidays abroad using diplomatic credentials.

I think it would be far easier to develop a proper workers' party if we stopped telling workers to vote for a party which is, at its core, our ultimate enemy.


To equate Corbyn with Straw is the sort of stuff I expect from a delusional Stalinist troll.
What one earth does it have to do with being a Stalinist? Corbyn and Straw may very well seem different, but they both fundamentally represent the same thing: monopoly capitalism. "Left wing" Labourites like Corbyn, McDonnell, etc. are actually a blessing to the elites of the Labour Party (Darlin, Brown, Blair, Balls) because they somehow have what it takes to convince seemingly progressive people to vote for ANY Labour candidate based on the fact that "they're better than the Tories", or that "we need to fight for the BNP", if these people (who are a tiny minority in the Labour Party) are such a great enemy of new Labour, why does new Labour continue elect them as representatives and prospective parliamentary candidates? It's because they pull votes in, not just locally or regionally, but nationwide...the CPB and the SWP would have a much tougher time calling on people to vote for Labour "without illusions" if the party was 100% Blairite. And it is in this respect that I feel they are some of the most dangerous elements of the party, if it weren't for these "progressive" Labourites we would have a much easier time destroying Labour, which is something that should be one of the immediate goals of all British socialists and Communists right now. Old Labourites serve only to prop up the facade of Labour still being a worker friendly party, and somehow they manage to pull it off.

[gorillafuck]

That anyone thinks leftists should support a party that is less left than the democrats in the USA is just ridiculous. Are they even aware of what Labour has been doing for the past years? They've been busy being tough on trade unions and engaging England in multiple wars.

[Palingenisis]

She was speechless, because she knew that Labour had already destroyed the already pathetic trade union movement, killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi and Afghan workers, continued the occupation of the six counties, and destroyed any shred of freedom we had before they won their election in 1997. .

I know people will accuse me of being a nationalist now but so be it...The British Labour to my knowledge never withdrew from a colony, it was always the Tories who made the decision at the end of the day to pull out. The British Labour Party built the H-Blocks in the six counties. Back in the day I can understand and empathize with English working class people voting for them but when it came to Ireland and the other colonies they have always been as bad if not worse than the Tories.

[Palingenisis]

To equate Corbyn with Straw is the sort of stuff I expect from a delusional Stalinist troll..

I thought "Stalinists" were supposed to be Reformists?

The point is that we are internationalists, we try to look at things from the point of the working class internationally and not just in one nation. While Labour might have showed a "nicer face" of capitalism to the working class in England and to a lesser extent in Cornwall, Wales and Scotland outside of those countries it was a different story.

[Palingenisis]

A tract written 90 years ago which advocated voting for the labour party on the basis that they still hadn't been exposed as anti-worker and needed to get into power in order to do so to shatter workers illusions in social-democratic reformism?

It's sort of lost a lot of relevancy in the intervening years...

It might have been wrong than too, not saying it was but I wish certain people who stop using Marx, Lenin, etc the way that Born-agains use the Bible...But you are utterly spot on. I mean how long ago was Clause Four dropped "officially" now? The British Labour Party isnt even putting forward the slightest illusion about what they are.

[Zanthorus]

The British Labour to my knowledge never withdrew from a colony.

They decolonised India. From what I recall life got a lot worse in the other british colonies under labour rule though.

[ed miliband]

I'm not calling The Grey Blur or Boru out, but I think there are some very important points in this thread that need addressing.

[The Idler]

A bourgeois workers party which exists to dupe the workers.
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[Steve_j]

* new controls over the DNA database, such as on the storage of innocent people's DNA;



This one i must admit as pleased me, if it happens ofcourse, it freaks me out enough that they have it on file, and more so they (labour) refused to confirm it would not be passed on to third parties for finacial compensation or some bullshit.


Wouldnt mind seeing the scarpping of the domestic extreemist database (but i have no doubt by now that its so full its near beyond a joke) and the disolving of the TSG added to that list.

[Palingenisis]

Look no one has any real illusions in Labour...The Grey Blur honestly whats the essential difference between the Labour Party now and Fianna Fail in the Free Srate? Nada...

[Palingenisis]

They decolonised India. From what I recall life got a lot worse in the other british colonies under labour rule though.

Thanks for pointing that out...But my point remains they are an English nationalist in the nearly the worst sense party, okay they far from the BNP and personally I have no prrobs with English patriotism, but at their best they stood for the working class within British Imperialist capitalism and that working class independence does not make.