The nutritional value of a vegan diet

[Niccolò Rossi]

After looking through the animal creulty thread in the Propoganda forum, I'm prompted to make this thread. Many leftists and anarchists choose a vegan or vegetarian diet for ethical reasons. What I'm curious about is as to whether it has any health benefits.

I eat animal products (milk, eggs, chicken, beef, fish, cheese) with every meal. I don't see how you can have an optimal diet without eating animal products. It seems to me mainly a question of adequate protein intake, especially when it comes to physically demanding jobs or regular sport and excercise.

Could someone enlighten me on this question? Can you really be as healthy as you might otherwise be on a vegan/vegetarian diet?

Nic.

[TheSultan]

Of course you can, it's all a matter of whether or not you're eating enough and eating the right things. Most vegetarians/vegans I know also take multi-vitamins to ensure that there won't be any nutrient deficiencies.

[x371322]

I'm not a vegan, though I've flirted with it before, but yes it's entirely possible (and not that hard by the way) to get all the necessary nutrients without consuming animal products. It just takes a little planning and smart eating.

[Revy]

After looking through the animal creulty thread in the Propoganda forum, I'm prompted to make this thread. Many leftists and anarchists choose a vegan or vegetarian diet for ethical reasons. What I'm curious about is as to whether it has any health benefits.

I eat animal products (milk, eggs, chicken, beef, fish, cheese) with every meal. I don't see how you can have an optimal diet without eating animal products. It seems to me mainly a question of adequate protein intake, especially when it comes to physically demanding jobs or regular sport and excercise.

Could someone enlighten me on this question? Can you really be as healthy as you might otherwise be on a vegan/vegetarian diet?

Nic.

I think vegetarians don't have to worry as much. Not only because they are getting a lot of stuff from the animal products they eat, but because they don't have to worry about some rogue ingredient in their food. Veganism is a lot different.

I was vegan for 6 years, after 7 months of being a vegetarian. I am now an omnivore. I was vegan as recently as the "ex-vegan Lierre Keith being pied at the anarchist bookfair" thread.

You don't have to be a vegetarian to care about animals. I just now see animals a lot differently. I used to think they were like people, I did a lot of anthropomorphizing. I don't think animals have rights. Certain animals (apes, dolphins, elephants) are intelligent enough that I think they should be protected from being killed. So I don't put a line below humans and think "all animals can be killed". Factory farming shouldn't be the reason to be vegan, if you can find more humane alternatives, like cage-free, free-range and help the movement to stop the cruel practices.

Now on to your health question. It is a complicated issue. There are different ways I think in which the health of both vegans and omnivores suffers because of the different diets. I know my own body, and I know how much better I feel physically and mentally because I eat animal products (eggs, dairy, meat) again. I think I must have had anemia, because I notice I feel a lot warmer and like I have more vitality.

The consensus seems to be.....veganism feels great in the short term, but long-term, it can become quite a drag for many. I won't generalize for everyone. I am no longer vegan but I don't care if someone is vegan and if they feel great and healthy I won't doubt them. Because while diet is one of the big factors of health, it is not the only factor. There is a lot of processed, nutritionally deficient food being eaten by omnivores, and a huge part of the reason so many people are unhealthy isn't the animal products, but the sodium. Humans evolved on an omnivorous diet, but not a diet loaded in salt.

[Foldered]

I don't know all the details, but I'll tell you that I do feel a lot more healthy since becoming vegan (even from a vegetarian diet in which I had some dairy like cheese). My digestive system is top notch.
And yes, you can be as healthy (if not more, if you do it right) as any omnivore. It's admitedly easier (in a way it can be harder, too) to be "healthy" as an omnivore, but one thing veganism has made me do is really look at what I eat, what its benefits are, and my cooking has improved significantly because I actually care what I'm making. This concern is not at the forefront of most omnivore's minds who get fast food, eat at pubs frequently, buy frozen pre-prepared meats, etc.

[Invincible Summer]

After looking through the animal creulty thread in the Propoganda forum, I'm prompted to make this thread. Many leftists and anarchists choose a vegan or vegetarian diet for ethical reasons. What I'm curious about is as to whether it has any health benefits.

I eat animal products (milk, eggs, chicken, beef, fish, cheese) with every meal. I don't see how you can have an optimal diet without eating animal products. It seems to me mainly a question of adequate protein intake, especially when it comes to physically demanding jobs or regular sport and excercise.

Could someone enlighten me on this question? Can you really be as healthy as you might otherwise be on a vegan/vegetarian diet?

Nic.

I'm a vegetarian.

There are plenty of vegan/vegetarian athletes. Mac Danzig is an MMA fighter (with an decent record) and he's vegan.

There are plenty of substitutes for meat that vegetarians/vegans can eat that have plenty of protein. Admittedly, it's harder for vegans as they can't eat things like eggs, but there are plenty of beans, grains, etc that are full of protein and are low-fat. Even broccoli, rice have protein.

In terms of other nutrients, as long as one is eating a decent mix of foods, one should be meeting all their requirements. I take vitamins as a boost, but I think everyone should be anyway, not just vegetarians.

However, it is very, very possible for vegetarians/vegans to eat poorly. Sometimes if I'm out of "good food," to fill myself up I'll eat fatty and carb-y foods like cheese, toast, junk food, nuts, etc. I exercise regularly, but it's still not good for me. Also, if a vegetarian/vegan doesn't know how to cook veggies/beans/tofu/etc to be tasty, it's very easy to just buy frozen dinners or other prepared foods that are high in calories/fat/sodium.

So basically, the only real difference between an omnivore and a vegetarian is that the latter does not consume meat. If a vegetarian pays a bit more attention to their diet, they should be able to be just as healthy (if not more so) than an omnivore. I found being a vegan very difficult, so I won't comment.


I think at least trying a vegan/vegetarian diet at least has value in that one is able to learn what they are eating and what is inside the food they eat. Food becomes more than the stuff you just eat cuz you're hungry. You have to think about what goes well together so you don't just eat boring green salads.

[x371322]

However, it is very, very possible for vegetarians/vegans to eat poorly. Sometimes if I'm out of "good food," to fill myself up I'll eat fatty and carb-y foods like cheese, toast, junk food, nuts, etc. I exercise regularly, but it's still not good for me. Also, if a vegetarian/vegan doesn't know how to cook veggies/beans/tofu/etc to be tasty, it's very easy to just buy frozen dinners or other prepared foods that are high in calories/fat/sodium.

Yeah no joke. Back when I tried out being a Vegan, I went about a month... but I pretty much ate nothing but potato chips, fries, veggie dogs, etc. :lol:

Simply cutting out meat doesn't make one healthy. No matter whether someone chooses to be vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, carnivore, whatever... it all comes down to making healthy choices and a little common sense.

[Invincible Summer]

Simply cutting out meat doesn't make one healthy. No matter whether someone chooses to be vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, carnivore, whatever... it all comes down to making healthy choices and a little common sense.

Yeah. That's more or less why I stopped being so militant about my vegetarianism. It all boils down to one's personal diet - I don't think that people who aspire to "turn everyone vegetarian" are realistic, nor do I think that's the point. Eating meat is not inherently bad. It's obviously natural as humans are naturally omnivorous animals, and omnivorous animals can and do predate on others. But humans are also able to think independently from primal instinct, and that's why I think vegetarianism is a choice that individuals make for themselves, not anything "natural" like some adherents to the diet would like to think.


To stay on topic, I think both vegetarianism and veganism have their pros and cons. While vegetarianism allows for a wider variety of foods to be eaten, it also "allows" cheese, which is (personally) a huge temptation that will definitely not be good for you. Veganism is generally pretty low-fat (unless you load up on vegan snacks and nuts and the like) and you still have access to a lot of healthy (and if you're looking for it, protein rich) food, but it's fairly difficult to eat in restaurants and with other people. You have to learn to cook (not that omnivores shouldn't do so either).

[Ovi]

Could someone enlighten me on this question? Can you really be as healthy as you might otherwise be on a vegan/vegetarian diet?
Nic.
One thing you should keep in mind is B12. It's only found naturally in animal products, though it shouldn't be a problem if you eat fortified foods or take dietary supplements.

[Niccolò Rossi]

Thanks for the replies so far. I'd like make a couple of comments.


I know my own body, and I know how much better I feel physically and mentally because I eat animal products (eggs, dairy, meat) again. I think I must have had anemia, because I notice I feel a lot warmer and like I have more vitality.

I sympathise with this. I have never been a vegetarian or vegan but none-the-less I don't see how you can feel 100% eating nothing but grains, nuts, fruit and veg.


Because while diet is one of the big factors of health, it is not the only factor. There is a lot of processed, nutritionally deficient food being eaten by omnivores, and a huge part of the reason so many people are unhealthy isn't the animal products, but the sodium. Humans evolved on an omnivorous diet, but not a diet loaded in salt.

I agree, diet is not all there is to health. I also agree regarding processed and nutritionally useless food. I try and eat a diet with as little processed food as possible. Also agree regarding salt. It's something I also keep an eye on (sauces, dressings and all sorts of other trimmings really are the devil in this regard).


And yes, you can be as healthy (if not more, if you do it right) as any omnivore.

I don't agree with this at all. An optimal omnivorous diet is healthier than an optimal vegan diet. I don't see how it could be any other way.

Saying this, I suppose it depends on what you mean by optimal. On this note:


There are plenty of vegan/vegetarian athletes. Mac Danzig is an MMA fighter (with an decent record) and he's vegan.

Well, no, I disagree, I don't think their are many at all. How many Olympic athletes do you think are vegans?

And yes, one MMA fighter might happen to be a vegan, but don't you think their is a reason why most aren't?

I suppose it depends on what kind of sport we are talking about. The example that I have in my mind is weightlighting, powerlifting and bodybuilding.


There are plenty of substitutes for meat that vegetarians/vegans can eat that have plenty of protein. Admittedly, it's harder for vegans as they can't eat things like eggs, but there are plenty of beans, grains, etc that are full of protein and are low-fat. Even broccoli, rice have protein.

Well, it depends what you call 'plenty'. I don't see how you can have a 8000 calorie diet, consuming 300g of protein a day without eating cheese, milk, eggs, red meat, poultry or fish.

I suppose it is possible theoretically, but physically the volume of fruits, grains, nuts and beg you would have to consumer would be physically impossible.

This raises the other issue. Even if you would be able to consume enough protein without eating animal products, the proteins taken individually in such a diet would all be incomplete. Now, whilst it is possible to make up for difficiency in certain essential amino acids by 'pairing up' certain grains, nuts, fruits and vegetables, but this adds another element of complexity to the situation.


I think at least trying a vegan/vegetarian diet at least has value in that one is able to learn what they are eating and what is inside the food they eat. Food becomes more than the stuff you just eat cuz you're hungry. You have to think about what goes well together so you don't just eat boring green salads.

I think I know more about what I eat and what goes into my food than eating a vegetarian could ever teach me.

I certainly don't 'just eat because I'm hungry' and to suggest this is how all people who choose to eat animal products behave is rediculous (much less to suggest that vegetarians are immune from this).


I don't think that people who aspire to "turn everyone vegetarian" are realistic, nor do I think that's the point. Eating meat is not inherently bad. It's obviously natural as humans are naturally omnivorous animals, and omnivorous animals can and do predate on others. But humans are also able to think independently from primal instinct, and that's why I think vegetarianism is a choice that individuals make for themselves, not anything "natural" like some adherents to the diet would like to think.

Well this is an interesting point I think. If the goal is not to "turn everyone vegetarian" (a rediculous goal, I agree), then what value is there in choosing not to consume meat? If you don't do it for religious reasons, I don't see how making this kind of individual sacrifice is really meaningful. Unfortunately, when it comes to abolishing animal cruelty (or the slaughter of animals for food in general), one person does not make a difference.


One thing you should keep in mind is B12. It's only found naturally in animal products, though it shouldn't be a problem if you eat fortified foods or take dietary supplements.

Thanks for that.

Nic.

[Invincible Summer]

Well, it depends what you call 'plenty'. I don't see how you can have a 8000 calorie diet, consuming 300g of protein a day without eating cheese, milk, eggs, red meat, poultry or fish.

I suppose it is possible theoretically, but physically the volume of fruits, grains, nuts and beg you would have to consumer would be physically impossible.

I think the average person who participates in physical activity could easily meet their protein and calorie requirements with a vegan diet. However, you seem to be talking about much more intense exercise, although I'm not sure who consumes 300g of protein/day.

Even so, I'd imagine that some vegan athletes may resort to using protein powder and similar products in order to fulfill their protein requirements.


This raises the other issue. Even if you would be able to consume enough protein without eating animal products, the proteins taken individually in such a diet would all be incomplete. Now, whilst it is possible to make up for difficiency in certain essential amino acids by 'pairing up' certain grains, nuts, fruits and vegetables, but this adds another element of complexity to the situation.
Indeed, veganism requires more careful meal planning.




I think I know more about what I eat and what goes into my food than eating a vegetarian could ever teach me.

I certainly don't 'just eat because I'm hungry' and to suggest this is how all people who choose to eat animal products behave is rediculous (much less to suggest that vegetarians are immune from this).

I didn't mean to suggest that all people who eat animal products do this; I just meant that one tends to appreciate what is in their food more (at least in my experience and those of a few friends who have tried vegan diets) when one pays attention to the whole process of where the food comes from and what is in the food.

Of course, one doesn't need to resort to eating a vegan diet to do this, but to physically go through it as opposed to reading about it does make a difference.




Well this is an interesting point I think. If the goal is not to "turn everyone vegetarian" (a rediculous goal, I agree), then what value is there in choosing not to consume meat? If you don't do it for religious reasons, I don't see how making this kind of individual sacrifice is really meaningful. Unfortunately, when it comes to abolishing animal cruelty (or the slaughter of animals for food in general), one person does not make a difference.

As a leftist as well as a vegetarian, I know that only the destruction of capitalism can bring about meaningful change in regards to animal cruelty. But even if my individual dietary choice does not make a difference, I still prefer it, perhaps as an ethical stance.

I don't like killing animals, and I wouldn't want to pay for someone else to do it for me, it's as simple as that. It's borderline lifestylist, I'm aware, but it's one of those individual choices that - so long as it's not pushed dogmatically - doesn't really affect anyone else so I don't see why some people (not picking on you, Nic, but rather others I've met in real life) take such offense to me saying I'm a vegetarian.

[Adil3tr]

This is a site dedicated to those who wish to completely overthrow the existing order, some of them violent, and you're talking about vegan nutrition?

PS- I decided processed meat is an abomination because of rendering and all that shit. Read fast food nation or another book like it. I still eat it though, I don't have many options at my age. Even so, most of the meat I eat comes from an actual butcher some I'm okay.

[Veg_Athei_Socialist]

Being vegan(for me at least) is incredibly easy and I've never felt better. I have no plans of ever going back to omni-ism. B12 is fortified in tons of foods so its no worry. Calcium, protein, Iron and calories can be effortless to get enough of as long as you do your research and eat plenty of food thoughout the day. It also helps to take vegan-friendly multi-vitamins too.

[M-26-7]

Could someone enlighten me on this question? Can you really be as healthy as you might otherwise be on a vegan/vegetarian diet?



yes, you can be as healthy (if not more, if you do it right) as any omnivore.

I don't agree with this at all. An optimal omnivorous diet is healthier than an optimal vegan diet.

I am kind of curious why the OP started this thread pretending s/he only wanted to be "enlightened", and then went on to write a long reply showing that s/he already had his/her mind made up. And I say this as a non-vegetarian and someone with very few opinions about vegetarianism.

[An archist]

I'm not an expert on this, but I do know that some people can take a vegan/vegetarian diet alot better then others. I know people who were told by their doctor they urgently needed to get eating meat again, and on the other hand I know some really buff vegans and even some chubby vegetarians.

[Aeval]

One thing about protein; most people (I'm guessing more so in the West) eat too much protein, the RDA is 0.8 - 1 g per kg body weight - so I need about 48 - 60g a day (and any normal needing 300g would be 300 - 375 kg :blink: so I'm guessing whoever it is who needs that amount is some kinda über weight lifter who gets up every morning and does a triathlon before breakfast or something :lol:) - here's a sample menu to show how easily you can do that:



Breakfast:
1 cup Oatmeal - 6
1 cup Soymilk - 7
1 Bagel - 9

Lunch:
2 slices Whole Wheat Bread - 5
1 cup Vegetarian Baked Beans - 12

Dinner:
5 oz firm Tofu - 11
1 cup cooked Broccoli - 4
1 cup cooked Brown Rice - 5
2 Tbsp Almonds - 4

Snack:
2 Tbsp Peanut Butter - 8
6 Crackers - 2

TOTAL 73 grams

See, it's piss easy to get enough protein - remember, some of the biggest animals get all their protein from plants and they seem to get along just fine.

Really though, you can be a healthy vegan or an unhealthy one, just like you can be a healthy omnivore or an unhealthy one - I hate it when vegan/vegetarians/omnivores start accusing the other diet of not being healthy or not having the right amount of nutrients, it's just about knowing how to cook properly rather than buying ready made meals, and not just eating chips and stuff all the time. As someone pointed out, the only vitamin you can't get from a vegan diet is B12 but most soy milk, cereals etc are fortified with it

As for whether "you can feel 100% eating nothing but grains, nuts, fruit and veg" - clearly you can, plenty of people do. You can't critique the vegan/veggie diet based on the stupid people who only eat crisps and bread (no offence to anyone who does, I used to do that do before I learnt how to cook properly :lol:) any more than I can use those people who eat at McDonald's twice a day to critique a meat based diet - just learn to cook actual food people! It's not that difficult! :D


I know people who were told by their doctor they urgently needed to get eating meat again, and on the other hand I know some really buff vegans and even some chubby vegetarians.

Oh and this reminds me; going the other way Doctor Fuhrman has been getting meat eaters to go vegan to get them to lose vast amounts of weight, drastically reduce their cholesterol, even get them completely off their diabetic and high blood pressure medication - but this doesn't prove a vegan diet is "healthier" than one with meat and dairy, it just proves it's healthier to eat his specifically nutrient dense version of veganism than to eat an omnivorous diet that has already led to morbid obesity, so I'm guessing the people being told to eat meat again were people from the "I'm a veggie but I some how manage to eat a diet that doesn't even have many veggies in it, in fact, really I'm a starch-itarian" camp of vegetarianism :)

[Invincible Summer]

This is a site dedicated to those who wish to completely overthrow the existing order, some of them violent, and you're talking about vegan nutrition?



People have other things going on in their lives other than communist ideas. If you don't like it then don't post.