Is the FARC-EP a terrorist organization?

[the last donut of the night]

I've recently been assigned to do some research on the FARC at school, and as I have stumbled on a great deal of news resources -- many bourgeois and some leftist -- I have found mixed opinions on the FARC, especially among the left. Some say they don't represent the peasantry and working class of Colombia and that they have attacked indigenous communities before. Others say they are a genuine revolutionary organization -- this is the opinion of James J. Britain, author of "Revolutionary Social Change in Colombia: The Origin and Direction of the FARC-EP". What is your opinion on it?

[Nolan]

Terrorism: n: Horrible blood libel practiced by any group or organization that opposes neoliberal capitalist hegemony using non-legal means. Doesn't apply to imperialist-backed organizations or individuals, who must be referred to as "freedom fighters."

[Glenn Beck]

Considering that there isn't a single universally agreed upon definition or even a binding international treaty defining terrorism it's literally a matter of who you ask. They are organized much like a regular army with uniforms and chains of command, etc. They aren't prone to engage in random public bombings of civilians typical of the groups generally branded as terrorist (Al-Qaeda, ETA, certain Palestinian groups). They are more focused on military operations to capture and hold territory in their rural base areas and to damage the military and police capabilities of the Colombian state. That differentiates them from what is usually called terrorism. They do engage in acts of symbolic violence to intimidate officials and landowners, and assassinate them on occasion, so you might want to call that terrorism.

IMO if you want to make an unflattering comparison I'd compare them to a criminal organization like a mafia or something because they strongly rely on criminal activities to finance themselves. Even that doesn't really fit because their crime is a means to an end and not just part of an illegal profit making business.

It is what it is, I guess.

[Sankofa]

Colombia and Las FARC-EP have been argued back and forth over this forum for years.

You'll find the liberal currents on revleft are vehemently opposed to them, because they're violent (gasp!), and have the striking inability to criticize the situation in Colombia with out walking hand in hand with bourgeois interests.

Saying that FARC doesn't have the support of the peasantry is not historically accurate.

LAS FARC was originally began in the 1930s as a peasant movement; rural Colombians opposed to state oppression against farmers and workers, and continue to operate in the countryside to this day.

Rural Colombians have poured into FARC controlled land holdings for years for protection against the U.S. backed Colombian regime and solidarity.

It's also hard to gauge the level of support for the guerilla when anyone opposed to the government "disappears" or gets locked up in jail. Look up Liliany Obando.

Recommended reading:

Interview with FARC Commander Rául Reyes (http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/KHII-75336Z?OpenDocument)

Las FARC-EP a Revolutionary exception in an age of Imperialist Expansion (http://www.monthlyreview.org/0905brittain.htm)

The Para-Uribe Regime (http://www.en-camino.org/para-uribismo-and-icc)

[The Vegan Marxist]

A lot of the main opposition against FARC that is present in Colombia is due to successful propaganda used against them. This was pointed out by refuting the propaganda against them here, which started on the 5th page of this thread: http://www.revleft.com/vb/colombia-rebel-groups-t124892/index5.html

[RedSonRising]

A lot of the main opposition against FARC that is present in Colombia is due to successful propaganda used against them. This was pointed out by refuting the propaganda against them here, which started on the 5th page of this thread: http://www.revleft.com/vb/colombia-rebel-groups-t124892/index5.html

Good thread. But honestly there was no propaganda refuted in the link to the previous thread, just a few posters saying "that doesn't make sense!" without providing any evidence that they were genuine or non-agressive to civilians beyond theoretical counters.

Historically, the FARC started out as a revolutionary guerrilla group with the support by the peasantry, but many, including myself, posit that they have focused on survival more than revolution in ways that have disconnected them with and harmed the proletariat and peasantry.

Searching for interviews among the peasantry in Colombia would be a good way to get information. That's a more objective way to bypass the propaganda.

Good luck with your research assignment. I'm always interested in any new information others can offer about the subject or any other debatable topic. If you find anything of empirical significance along the way, I'd appreciate if you posted it.

[Nolan]

No actually it was just you basically saying "nuh uh guys it's true they're evil! I've been to Colombia I know!"

[redasheville]

The FARC are not a terrorist organization.

[RedSonRising]

No actually it was just you basically saying "nuh uh guys it's true they're evil! I've been to Colombia I know!"

Yes, I used firsthand experience and accounts to shape my view of reality, sue me, but all the while providing varied sources that gave accounts of atrocious acts by the organization. Nothing but hopeful banter has been used to try and refute the facts reported about civilian abuse.

If Vegan Marxist can offer new research and different perspectives other than the "eh let's give them the benefit of the doubt for being a leftist guerrilla group" arguments which are often presented, I will open-mindedly examine and engage reasons why the FARC benefit the working class of Colombia.

[Nolan]

Yes, I used firsthand experience and accounts to shape my view of reality, sue me,

No, you didn't.


but all the while providing varied sources that gave accounts of atrocious acts by the organization. Nothing but hopeful banter has been used to try and refute the facts reported about civilian abuse.

Yeah if the Colombian state which murders far more and employs paramilitaries that kill even far more people lies it's news to you, huh. Gee, they wouldn't have anything to gain from that.


If Vegan Marxist can offer new research and different perspectives other than the "eh let's give them the benefit of the doubt for being a leftist guerrilla group" arguments which are often presented, I will open-mindedly examine and engage reasons why the FARC benefit the working class of Colombia.

Literature has already been presented. But you just go ahead and prattle on about how the FARC is evil because everyone in Bogota believes it.

[RedSonRising]

No, you didn't.



Yeah if the Colombian state which murders far more and employs paramilitaries that kill even far more people lies it's news to you, huh. Gee, they wouldn't have anything to gain from that.



Literature has already been presented. But you just go ahead and prattle on about how the FARC is evil because everyone in Bogota believes it.

The "literature presented" was not an account for the atrocities recorded nor any interviews, footage, or otherwise that show a single working colombian saying they support the FARC; just literature stressing the fact that the capitalists have an interest in demonizing the FARC, which is true.

Of course the government and paramilitaries lie, but not every human rights and latin american research organization and journalist reporter in the world is out to kiss Uribe's ass. What does it say about an organization when the majority of the working class does not give the organization credibility? The oppressed poor, the majority in Colombia, cannot be both largely brainwashed into thinking the FARC is evil and at the same time be revolutionary enough to be backing the FARC in all that they do.

It's not "everyone in Bogota" who believes the media I go by; it's my families firsthand experience growing up in the country and my own eyes visibly witnessing the effects of the violence on the working people. Witnessing reality can't be reversed by any amount of literature or ideological rhetoric. People begging for money in the streets holding signs pleading for sympathy for being displaced from the countryside and having children regularly step on planted mines is not something that can be erased with words. I don't expect to change anyone's mind by expecting them to trust an unseen forum poster's word, but don't expect to convince what me and my family have seen in the country itself is not what we saw. I won't argue beyond these points because it is pointless.

[The Vegan Marxist]

The "literature presented" was not an account for the atrocities recorded nor any interviews, footage, or otherwise that show a single working colombian saying they support the FARC; just literature stressing the fact that the capitalists have an interest in demonizing the FARC, which is true.

Of course the government and paramilitaries lie, but not every human rights and latin american research organization and journalist reporter in the world is out to kiss Uribe's ass. What does it say about an organization when the majority of the working class does not give the organization credibility? The oppressed poor, the majority in Colombia, cannot be both largely brainwashed into thinking the FARC is evil and at the same time be revolutionary enough to be backing the FARC in all that they do.

It's not "everyone in Bogota" who believes the media I go by; it's my families firsthand experience growing up in the country and my own eyes visibly witnessing the effects of the violence on the working people. Witnessing reality can't be reversed by any amount of literature or ideological rhetoric. People begging for money in the streets holding signs pleading for sympathy for being displaced from the countryside and having children regularly step on planted mines is not something that can be erased with words. I don't expect to change anyone's mind by expecting them to trust an unseen forum poster's word, but don't expect to convince what me and my family have seen in the country itself is not what we saw. I won't argue beyond these points because it is pointless.

What you did was, not present personal experiences of your own, but rather "experiences" logged by "eye-witness" accounts, in which were promoted through the support of the Colombian military & government. You even promoted an account where peasants became "eye-witnesses" of FARC chopping down innocent civilians with a chain saw. Yet, despite the obvious fact that this goes against any kind of guerrilla tactical defense against the offensive, I provided an article which was written by a man who HAS been to Colombia & HAS walked with FARC for several months & witnessed the atrocities brought upon the peasantry & working class of Colombia by the Colombian military, in which he pointed out the military's known use of killing those who oppose them with the use of a chain saw. My counter-arguments were never refuted nor debunked, & rather you ranted on by stating that we were merely saying "you're wrong" without showing any evidence to back it up, in which I actually did.

[RedSonRising]

What you did was, not present personal experiences of your own, but rather "experiences" logged by "eye-witness" accounts, in which were promoted through the support of the Colombian military & government. You even promoted an account where peasants became "eye-witnesses" of FARC chopping down innocent civilians with a chain saw. Yet, despite the obvious fact that this goes against any kind of guerrilla tactical defense against the offensive, I provided an article which was written by a man who HAS been to Colombia & HAS walked with FARC for several months & witnessed the atrocities brought upon the peasantry & working class of Colombia by the Colombian military, in which he pointed out the military's known use of killing those who oppose them with the use of a chain saw. My counter-arguments were never refuted nor debunked, & rather you ranted on by stating that we were merely saying "you're wrong" without showing any evidence to back it up, in which I actually did.

Your evidence however does not contradict the personal accounts I provided (which you correctly state, I did not emphasize), and partially sheds light on only one example. The evidence of chainsaw massacres being done by the military may imply blaming the guerrillas, however that is one of many reported incidents, and I cannot simply assume that every atrocity ranging within the past few decades is simply because of propaganda, especially when peasants such as in the video I have shown you express a lack of any real choice in guerrilla operations and more suffer from the violence than they do benefit.

Amidst all this violence, what have the FARC done for the working class and the oppressed poor? Besides provoke the state through decision-making largely divorced from the Colombian population, I don't see the reason to support them, despite their past and origin as genuine revolutionaries. Even if one is to classify them as personally authentic proponents of social change, their methods have little to show for it.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Your evidence however does not contradict the personal accounts I provided (which you correctly state, I did not emphasize), and partially sheds light on only one example. The evidence of chainsaw massacres being done by the military may imply blaming the guerrillas, however that is one of many reported incidents, and I cannot simply assume that every atrocity ranging within the past few decades is simply because of propaganda, especially when peasants such as in the video I have shown you express a lack of any real choice in guerrilla operations and more suffer from the violence than they do benefit.

Amidst all this violence, what have the FARC done for the working class and the oppressed poor? Besides provoke the state through decision-making largely divorced from the Colombian population, I don't see the reason to support them, despite their past and origin as genuine revolutionaries. Even if one is to classify them as personally authentic proponents of social change, their methods have little to show for it.

The personal accounts you had shared with us didn't make much damn sense either. For example, the one where peasants witnessed FARC killing off fellow peasants of theirs, while FARC let them live to let others know what had happened. How does that make any sense in which suppose to help FARC's cause & to gain more numbers within their guerrilla army? What I did, was not provide evidence that the military was behind it, but rather how the claims that FARC was behind these atrocities had no substantial evidence to prove of such. If what you had provided was given through court, your case would've been booted out as a joke.

And let's see, FARC, as I believe, has given the peasants & working class of Colombia another option in life. Rather than take shit by the Colombian government, maybe start some rallies (in which would then just be dispersed by the police personnel over there), nor be like a lot that I know over there & just not give a damn about what's happening politically & economically. I'd rather them have another choice in life, to where they can finally stand up & fight for a better future. It's either that or they can join the reformist "green movement" that's taking strength, so I hear & read, in Colombia.

[RedSonRising]

The personal accounts you had shared with us didn't make much damn sense either. For example, the one where peasants witnessed FARC killing off fellow peasants of theirs, while FARC let them live to let others know what had happened. How does that make any sense in which suppose to help FARC's cause & to gain more numbers within their guerrilla army? What I did, was not provide evidence that the military was behind it, but rather how the claims that FARC was behind these atrocities had no substantial evidence to prove of such. If what you had provided was given through court, your case would've been booted out as a joke.

And let's see, FARC, as I believe, has given the peasants & working class of Colombia another option in life. Rather than take shit by the Colombian government, maybe start some rallies (in which would then just be dispersed by the police personnel over there), nor be like a lot that I know over there & just not give a damn about what's happening politically & economically. I'd rather them have another choice in life, to where they can finally stand up & fight for a better future. It's either that or they can join the reformist "green movement" that's taking strength, so I hear & read, in Colombia.

Referring to the youtube video concerning landmines, the peasants clearly vocalize that coercion is common as a tactic by the Guerrillas. Using intimidation for power consolidation is not an uncommon tactic by insurgencies.

Does the future look better or worse since the FARC took up arms? Because from all the angles I've seen it, it has give the Colombian State a constant 9-11 to maintain power and all the while no evidence that any social transformation is being made within the country or occupied territories. Unintended or not, the violence seems to be doing more harm than good. At this rate even if the FARC were to overthrow the military and government of Colombia tomorrow, there would not be any social base for the necessary building of a democratic economy and institutional framework. I'll start giving them credit once they do more than put a hand in the coca trade and attack police outhouses and plant mines everywhere.

Also, excuse me if you feel I have somehow misdirected or stolen your thread, it was not my intent to simply attack and continue previous arguments if you don't deem them appropriate in this context.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Referring to the youtube video concerning landmines, the peasants clearly vocalize that coercion is common as a tactic by the Guerrillas. Using intimidation for power consolidation is not an uncommon tactic by insurgencies.

Does the future look better or worse since the FARC took up arms? Because from all the angles I've seen it, it has give the Colombian State a constant 9-11 to maintain power and all the while no evidence that any social transformation is being made within the country or occupied territories. Unintended or not, the violence seems to be doing more harm than good. At this rate even if the FARC were to overthrow the military and government of Colombia tomorrow, there would not be any social base for the necessary building of a democratic economy and institutional framework. I'll start giving them credit once they do more than put a hand in the coca trade and attack police outhouses and plant mines everywhere.

Also, excuse me if you feel I have somehow misdirected or stolen your thread, it was not my intent to simply attack and continue previous arguments if you don't deem them appropriate in this context.

Of course things are going to get fucking worse during a revolution. I'd love for you to point out when things don't during such situations!? What matters what they're fighting for & the long run goal. Are you going to condemn the Naxalites because their resistance led to the implementation of "Operation Green Hunt", which has taken the lives of many innocent civilians & fellow Comrades of theirs? How about the lives & destruction brought about within Nepal when the Maoists were still waging an armed resistance against the Nepalese State? Or how about the grand Socialist revolution in Russia? Because, believe me, it was not the prettiest of battles waged against a State.

[RedSonRising]

Of course things are going to get fucking worse during a revolution. I'd love for you to point out when things don't during such situations!? What matters what they're fighting for & the long run goal. Are you going to condemn the Naxalites because their resistance led to the implementation of "Operation Green Hunt", which has taken the lives of many innocent civilians & fellow Comrades of theirs? How about the lives & destruction brought about within Nepal when the Maoists were still waging an armed resistance against the Nepalese State? Or how about the grand Socialist revolution in Russia? Because, believe me, it was not the prettiest of battles waged against a State.

My point is not that such movements should be blamed for worsening conditions under struggle, but rather whether or not the social base is fundamentally strong enough to ensure the outcome is worth both the outcome and the process itself. The Nepalese have demonstrated overwhelming working class support and mobilizations with campaigns that stress union involvement and form a cohesive political movement. An article or two blaming them for a bus explosion is quite different than years of allegations and claims made against the FARC insurgency that has isolated itself. The Naxalites have also been praised for their community networking. It takes more than aggression towards the state to make a group revolutionary.

All in all, I do not think I would call the FARC terrorists, simply revolutionary guerrillas engaged in questionable practices of which the credibility of its evidence we disagree upon.

[Andropov]

I suggest you read Brittain's book, it really does dispel the bougeois hogwash in a factual objective way instead of listening to certain posters drivel.