Attend the RCP's Memorial Day Conferences! [Archive]

Monkey Riding Dragon

18th May 2010, 12:51

For about a year now, the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA has been mobilizing a campaign around the article/pamphlet "The Revolution We Need...The Leadership We Have" (http://www.revcom.us/a/170/Revolution_we_need-en.html) as a leading part of building a movement for revolution here in the United States. The aim of this campaign is to familiarize the masses with communism, with the RCP and its leadership and body of work, and with the need for revolution to bring a whole different kind of society and world into being. This campaign has been making significant strides both here and around the world in connection to mobilizations around this last May Day, as A World to Win has pointed out. But we really need to kick this campaign into a higher gear and urgently...and, in that connection, your input (whoever) is greatly needed at this juncture!

The RCP is calling major conferences around the USA on Memorial Day in order to discuss the road forward toward revolution at much greater length and depth. (http://www.revcom.us/a/201/conference_letter-en.html) Your ideas and creativity and yes your criticisms are needed! I just wanted to put this out there as a plea to all Americans here who are interested in bringing forward a different and much better kind of world to be in attendance and to come armed with your suggestions, thoughts, and any criticisms you may have.

Atlee

18th May 2010, 15:51

I went to the RCP site and did not see any events listed. Am I missing something?

Monkey Riding Dragon

18th May 2010, 18:31

Kassad

18th May 2010, 21:28

The Vegan Marxist

18th May 2010, 21:34

Kassad

18th May 2010, 21:42

I actually agree only to the RIM part. RIM no longer exists, yet so many people play it out as if this group still does.

I'm glad you acknowledge that, but why do you disagree on the first part? I can't name one issue of Revolution Newspaper, at least since I've been keeping up with it over the last two years, that hasn't had quote after quote, article after article and promotion after promotion about Bob Avakian, yet I rarely read anything about the works of Mao. Information about the Chinese Revolution has all but disappeared lately as well. Mention of Avakian in important party documents is unrivaled by Lenin and Mao.

However, I don't really need my questions answered. I can do that for myself. The party's central orientation is promote Bob Avakian at all costs, as they believe he is their greatest tool towards making revolution. Regardless, it's very apparent that Bob Avakian's voice is no more relevant to the working class than mine is when it comes to making revolution, so it's a pretty lost cause. This is why the party is deteriorating pretty rapidly from what I hear, along with the fact that Kasama Project continues to drain supporters from those sick of not being able to say one negative word about Avakian without being expelled from party ranks.

The Vegan Marxist

18th May 2010, 21:47

I'm glad you acknowledge that, but why do you disagree on the first part? I can't name one issue of Revolution Newspaper, at least since I've been keeping up with it over the last two years, that hasn't had quote after quote, article after article and promotion after promotion about Bob Avakian, yet I rarely read anything about the works of Mao. Information about the Chinese Revolution has all but disappeared lately as well. Mention of Avakian in important party documents is unrivaled by Lenin and Mao.

However, I don't really need my questions answered. I can do that for myself. The party's central orientation is promote Bob Avakian at all costs, as they believe he is their greatest tool towards making revolution. Regardless, it's very apparent that Bob Avakian's voice is no more relevant to the working class than mine is when it comes to making revolution, so it's a pretty lost cause. This is why the party is deteriorating pretty rapidly from what I hear, along with the fact that Kasama Project continues to drain supporters from those sick of not being able to say one negative word about Avakian without being expelled from party ranks.

Oh, my mistake. I thought you were saying you were glad they weren't promoting Mao or his writings through their movement. Yes, I agree. The RCP needs to end the B.A. cult like image & start actually supporting rather the initial creator of their thoughts - Mao.

Atlee

18th May 2010, 23:54

Totally my bad!

To clarify, these conferences will be held at the Revolution Bookstores. To find the nearest Revolution Bookstore, click here. (http://www.revcom.us/a/online/contac_e.htm)

And thanks for your interest!

Maybe there should be a traveling conference with books like a tour of speakers? Those locations miss millions of people who would love to hear more RCP for various or personal reasons. I went back to watch the 2003 Avakian speeches.

Kassad

19th May 2010, 01:58

Maybe there should be a traveling conference with books like a tour of speakers? Those locations miss millions of people who would love to hear more RCP for various or personal reasons. I went back to watch the 2003 Avakian speeches.

In their defense, their party has initiated several nationwide speaking tours, from the promotion of Bob Avakian's Away With All Gods!, Sunsara Taylor's campus speaking tour about women's liberation and Raymond Lotta's campus tours about bourgeois propaganda about communism. Unfortunately, those events have never come anywhere near me, as they tend to take place in areas where the RCP has a lot of support, such as Chicago and California.

The Douche

19th May 2010, 04:26

I would totally enjoy going to one of these, if it didn't mean driving over 5 hours to get there, and then another 5 hours to get back.

Palingenisis

19th May 2010, 04:58

In their defense, their party has initiated several nationwide speaking tours, from the promotion of Bob Avakian's Away With All Gods!, Sunsara Taylor's campus speaking tour about women's liberation and Raymond Lotta's campus tours about bourgeois propaganda about communism. Unfortunately, those events have never come anywhere near me, as they tend to take place in areas where the RCP has a lot of support, such as Chicago and California.

Their line on all those issues is pretty crap though in my opinion...Middle class immature and divious attitude to religion...typical decadent liberal views on "free love" (which have a funny habit of enslaving women) and a opportunist view of Stalin.

Atlee

19th May 2010, 06:22

Florida is about the size of California and this does not negate the whole south eastern region. The one thing all socialist parties have in common is their lack of support for those in the SE, except in the bigger cities e.g. ATL.

Astinilats

19th May 2010, 14:35

I may actually try to make one of these. I'm legitimately interested as to a Revolutionary Communist Party supporter's opinion of the blatant fact that Mao Zedong has literally disappeared from all of the party's recent publications. Along with that, I'd also like to hear information about the fact that the Revolutionary Internationalist Movement no longer exists.

I went to the big ANNSWER march and talked with some old RCP people. They explicitly distanced themselves from Mao.

The RCP is basically a Trotskyite group. They act like Trots, think like Trots, and promote crypto-Trotskyism under the banner of Mao, which many of their people are basically trashing as well. In fact, the closest comparison to them is the ISO, which is also a cult that tries to sell you books and newspapers.

Astinilats

19th May 2010, 14:37

Their line on all those issues is pretty crap though in my opinion...Middle class immature and divious attitude to religion...typical decadent liberal views on "free love" (which have a funny habit of enslaving women) and a opportunist view of Stalin.

Groups that promote "free love" inevitably have some males pushing the line onto female recruits. "Spread your legs for the revolution, baby."

I went to an RCP bookstore, and the women there seemed a bit too 'friendly' towards me, if you know what I mean.

Palingenisis

19th May 2010, 14:54

I went to the big ANNSWER march and talked with some old RCP people. They explicitly distanced themselves from Mao.

The RCP is basically a Trotskyite group. They act like Trots, think like Trots, and promote crypto-Trotskyism under the banner of Mao, which many of their people are basically trashing as well. In fact, the closest comparison to them is the ISO, which is also a cult that tries to sell you books and newspapers.

Wow...That does surprise me. In what way did they do so?

It wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if they soon start trying to make out that Avakian is up there with Marx himself!

RED DAVE

19th May 2010, 15:02

I went to the big ANNSWER march and talked with some old RCP people. They explicitly distanced themselves from Mao.

The RCP is basically a Trotskyite group. They act like Trots, think like Trots, and promote crypto-Trotskyism under the banner of Mao, which many of their people are basically trashing as well. In fact, the closest comparison to them is the ISO, which is also a cult that tries to sell you books and newspapers.You are one ignorant fool. The RCP and Trotskyists have about as much in common as oil and water. What you don't want to deal with is that Maoism and Stalinism are in fact kissing cousins and the RCP is a member of your clan, not mine. Both you and the Maoists promote state capitalism in the name of socialism.

(ducks to avoid blasts of hot air)

RED DAVE

RED DAVE

19th May 2010, 15:04

Groups that promote "free love" inevitably have some males pushing the line onto female recruits. "Spread your legs for the revolution, baby."

I went to an RCP bookstore, and the women there seemed a bit too 'friendly' towards me, if you know what I mean.You are one sick puppy. I remember hearing about charges of "horizontal recruitment" being made against the Left. I hope you enjoy spreading baseless rumors.

RED DAVE

Saorsa

19th May 2010, 15:20

I went to an RCP bookstore, and the women there seemed a bit too 'friendly' towards me, if you know what I mean.

Don't flatter yourself.

Astinilats

19th May 2010, 17:28

You are one ignorant fool. The RCP and Trotskyists have about as much in common as oil and water. What you don't want to deal with is that Maoism and Stalinism are in fact kissing cousins and the RCP is a member of your clan, not mine. Both you and the Maoists promote state capitalism in the name of socialism.

(ducks to avoid blasts of hot air)

RED DAVE

On the contrary, like the ISO Cliffite trash you are, RCPers can't stop talking about how everything in the world is "state-capitalist." In this sense, their line is indistinguishable from the ISO. More similarities include:

RCP is a cult. Almost all Trotskyite groups are cults (ISO is a cult).

RCP practices "entryism" and has the same rule-or-ruin approach to working with other groups. This is an explicitly Trotskyite behavior.

RCP tries to sell tons of their own books and newspapers. In this regard they are almost identical to the ISO, and similar to most other Trotskyite groups. ISO is basically an Amyway-style cult that is pushing horrible books on people, and RCP is close behind them.

Astinilats

19th May 2010, 17:34

You are one sick puppy. I remember hearing about charges of "horizontal recruitment" being made against the Left. I hope you enjoy spreading baseless rumors.

RED DAVE

This shit happens all the time, especially in Trotskyite and anarchist circles. The stories about the Healyites are particularly grotesque, but hey, that's what happens in cults.

Astinilats

19th May 2010, 17:40

Wow...That does surprise me. In what way did they do so?

It wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if they soon start trying to make out that Avakian is up there with Marx himself!

It was stated by some ancient RCP member when a friend was talking to him about China. He stated something to the effect "China wasn't really ever socialist." The same person also made similar remarks to me about the DPRK, to which I retorted he should read a book about the subject, like the one written by Martin Hart-Landsberg, an author they promote heavily in their bookstores for something else he wrote.

All this was inbetween blathering about Avakian's "New Synthesis." These people are full of ridiculous slogans and nothing more.

More similarities between RCP and the Trotskyites include:

The vast majority of Trotskyites are anti-Chavez, so is RCP.

Trotskyites aren't supporting the Nepalese Maoists. Neither is the RCP.

Pretty much any progress thing going on in the world is rejected by the RCP and the vast majority of Trotskyite groups, for almost identical bullshit reasons.

Kassad

19th May 2010, 19:35

There's a lot of points that need to be addressed when discussing the connections between orthodox Maoists and Trotskyists that subscribe to Tony Cliff's ideological trend.

Firstly, I wouldn't necessarily call the International Socialist Organization (ISO) a "cult." The term cult infers that there is someone being practically idolized by cultists. While the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP) is most definitely a cult of Bob Avakian, as shown by the fact that he is the central aspect of their entire party, the ISO doesn't have that. The ISO, if anything, is obsessed with money. I have never seen ISO members giving out papers for free and they focus a lot on selling books that they produce. This doesn't make them a cult around money, since if anything, it makes them into a business. The ISO is hardly to the left of Communist Party USA, in that they are both liberal organizations that promote absurdly opportunistic political lines. The ISO focuses so much on money that they are not much different than a business.

On the use of "state capitalism" in labeling socialist countries or the like, this is where hardcore anti-revisionists (which the RCP isn't, but I'll get to that in a second. They do, however, still uphold this belief) and Cliffite Trotskyists agree. They both label the former Soviet Union, the Eastern Bloc, Cuba and such as "state capitalist." When Trotskyists like Red Dave repudiate this similarity and claim that the RCP is a part of the "Stalinist" camp, authentic socialists don't need to do much more than laugh, since it is obvious that both ideological trends uphold the laughable notion. However, though the RCP has moved towards some more Trotskyist-oriented tenents, such as by calling for international revolution as the only means of liberation (this isn't necessarily incorrect. I'm just stating a fact) and forsaking support for Stalin, this doesn't make them a part of any kind of Trotskyist ideological strain. If anything, it shows how deformed their ideology has become as they forsake Marx, Lenin and Mao in pursuit of prostrating themselves before everything that comes out of Bob Avakian's mouth.

The RCP isn't an anti-revisionist party whatsoever. If anything, as someone else pointed out, they are totally aligning with Trotskyist anti-communism in criticizing the revolutionary developments in Nepal and identifying Cuba as "state capitalist." These kinds of things show why the RCP is not only ideologically warped, but also completely dying out.

These kinds of observations have to be made, as in times of revolutionary developments and crisis, we need internationalism and authentic Marxism as a way out, not opportunism.

RED DAVE

19th May 2010, 20:06

These kinds of observations have to be made, as in times of revolutionary developments and crisis, we need internationalism and authentic Marxism as a way out, not opportunism.Right on, Comrade!

RED DAVE

kasama-rl

20th May 2010, 01:38

We won't get far if our discussions are framed like this:

"authentic socialists don't need to do much more than laugh, since it is obvious that both ideological trends uphold the laughable notion."

the debate over the nature of the Soviet Union is actually a debate over what socialism is. And that brings up some major issues of substance.

Those who embrace the analysis of Tony Cliff think that the Soviet Union was never socialist. Meanwhile maoists hold that there was a significant socialist period following the October Revolution -- for decades, including the great military struggle against nazism. These are not the same analysis, and the differences reflect deep differences in the view of what socialism is.

I am convinced that we get nowhere if we announce that our own views are obvious, and that anyone who disagrees is ridiculous or reactionary. The world and our experience are complex -- and the debate over how to "do better" than past socialist movements is a quite important one, involving major issues of substance.

I also don't think it is particularly helpful to focus the argument on labels (who is a trotskyist, who isn't, what bag someone belongs in). Avakian's followers are neither trotskyists nor stalinists -- they have a different and distinct politics than can be associated with Stalin or Trotsky. And the attempt to force modern political currents into those old boxes doesn't help us get a sense of the CURRENT debate.

redasheville

20th May 2010, 02:05

I have never seen ISO members giving out papers for free and they focus a lot on selling books that they produce. This doesn't make them a cult around money, since if anything, it makes them into a business. The ISO is hardly to the left of Communist Party USA, in that they are both liberal organizations that promote absurdly opportunistic political lines. The ISO focuses so much on money that they are not much different than a business.

Normally, I wouldn't respond to stuff like this. However, I will just point out that, here in San Francisco (one of PSL's biggest branches) the PSL does everything that you criticize the ISO for. They set up big tables at demos and sell their books. They walk around in crowds and sell their paper. They hand out their protest signs. They pass out leaflets. They get "Socialism and Liberation" into local bookstores, etc etc etc. Once, one of PSL's leading cadre here handed me a paper at an immigrant rights demo. I was like "sure I'll take it". He then told me that they ask a dollar for it. I then said I would give him a SW for it. He agreed. I thanked him and we went along our merry way. It later turned out we were even neighbors!

Fortunately, PSL comrades in SF are generally friendly and play a positive role in the SF left, on a whole. Also, to everyone's general well being, they level criticism at us that is far more serious and rigorous than what Kassad does here.

Kassad

20th May 2010, 02:46

Normally, I wouldn't respond to stuff like this. However, I will just point out that, here in San Francisco (one of PSL's biggest branches) the PSL does everything that you criticize the ISO for. They set up big tables at demos and sell their books. They walk around in crowds and sell their paper. They hand out their protest signs. They pass out leaflets. They get "Socialism and Liberation" into local bookstores, etc etc etc. Once, one of PSL's leading cadre here handed me a paper at an immigrant rights demo. I was like "sure I'll take it". He then told me that they ask a dollar for it. I then said I would give him a SW for it. He agreed. I thanked him and we went along our merry way. It later turned out we were even neighbors!

Fortunately, PSL comrades in SF are generally friendly and play a positive role in the SF left, on a whole. Also, to everyone's general well being, they level criticism at us that is far more serious and rigorous than what Kassad does here.

If you're asking me to bring up some of my political criticisms of the ISO, I'd be happy to oblige. However, I was merely pointing out my view of how the ISO tends to operate at times, as shown by national actions, local actions I have attended and the perspectives of others I know who have encountered them.

You appear to completely take my statements out of context and make the assumption that I criticize all organizations that sell books, papers and such. As you pointed out, my party does the same thing. However, from my experience, it tends to appear that the ISO is run in a business-like manner. Take that as you will, as it's not some generalized assault on your organization, for if I wanted to do that, I'd bring up issues regarding China or Cuba, but that's not my intention.

redasheville

20th May 2010, 02:50

If you're asking me to bring up some of my political criticisms of the ISO, I'd be happy to oblige. However, I was merely pointing out my view of how the ISO tends to operate at times, as shown by national actions, local actions I have attended and the perspectives of other Marxists who encounter them.

What you completely take out of context is the assumption that I criticize all organizations that sell books, papers and such. As you pointed out, my party does the same thing. However, from my experience, it tends to appear that the ISO is run in a business-like manner. Take that as you will, as it's not some generalized assault on your organization, for if I wanted to do that, I'd bring up issues regarding China or Cuba, but that's not my intention.

How does the ISO appear to run in a "business-like manner"? How is what we do any different, qualitatively, than what the PSL does (which was my point...)?

Kassad

20th May 2010, 02:56

How does the ISO appear to run in a "business-like manner"? How is what we do any different, qualitatively, than what the PSL does (which was my point...)?

Edited my post for grammar, in case you got confused. I don't know what the hell I did with my sentence structure there.

Anyway, without divulging into details and starting a massive sectarian debate, I've found that in my experience with ISO members and supporters, instead of actively engaging people and attempting to get them involved, they merely try to sell their paper. Whenever I'm at anti-war events, Palestine events or any kind of struggles that we are involved in, I'm usually engaged by different organizations and their members, but I've never gotten that from the ISO. When I've attended their events, their members sell me a copy of the paper and I don't hear one more word from them.

Again, this is personal experience. In my opinion, it appears to me that selling the organization's publications is the top priority. Also, this isn't something you should get angry about or attempt to refute, as it's just a personal opinion that comes from my experiences.

redasheville

20th May 2010, 03:14

I am going to just send Kassad a PM.

Monkey Riding Dragon

22nd May 2010, 16:53

Well I'm glad that some people have mentioned an interest in attending, especially given the range of delusions about the RCP, its leadership, and its political position that seem to be very prevalent here. These could be very productive events! Let me try and clarify just a few things though:

Originally posted by Astinilats:
Groups that promote "free love" inevitably have some males pushing the line onto female recruits. "Spread your legs for the revolution, baby."

I went to an RCP bookstore, and the women there seemed a bit too 'friendly' towards me, if you know what I mean. Believe it or not, being female and associated with the RCP in some capacity (such as I am, for example) doesn't make one a 'slut' or a 'whore' or whatever you think we are. In referring to the concept of free love positively on my blog, you might be surprised to learn that I didn't refer to prostitution or simply 'casual sex'. I was providing some thoughts on the eventual demise of the yes inherently patriarchal family unit under communism. But I guess that makes me "liberal" or something.

ON THE RCP'S STANCE REGARDING MAO AND OTHER HISTORICAL COMMUNIST LEADERS

Several people have brought up this subject, so I thought I'd at least try to provide some clarification. The RCP doesn't at all disregard historical socialist experience. The RCP (and yours truly) uphold the crucial lessons and accomplishments of past socialist societies, including yes the Soviet Union up to the mid-1950s and China up to 1976. I could cite literally dozens of Revolution articles on these subjects, but probably the single most comprehensive piece available is Raymond Lotta's "Setting the Record Straight" series and in particular his talk "Socialism is Much Better Than Capitalism and Communism Will Be A Far Better World" (http://www.revcom.us/strs/set-the-record-straight.html). The reason the RCP's current constitution doesn't refer to the organization as "Marxist-Leninist-Maoist" has to do with two things:

1) The fact that the new synthesis Bob Avakian has been bringing forward constitutes a qualitative further advancement of communist theory that goes beyond the level of classical Maoism (while again not negating its historical importance or lessons), AND...

2) The understanding that naming stages of theoretical development after individuals doesn't truly reflect the nature of our science being a science, not a dogma. This is why BA's new synthesis isn't referred to as "Avakianism" for example.

ON TROTSKYISM

No, the RCP does not embrace Trotskyite 'bailout socialism' and economism. I don't know how to be any clearer on that.

ON SOCIAL-IMPERIALISM AND STATE CAPITALISM

Yes, unlike half of the so-called Maoist movement of today, the RCP recognizes the validity of the theory of social-imperialism and all its historical implications down to the present. In the understanding of the RCP (and myself), there is presently no government on Earth that doesn't deserve to be overthrown.

ON "CULTS"

This allegation is just a dismissive cop-out, folks. Simply branding the RCP a "cult" because it has accomplished and recognized leadership is an alternative people employ in order to avoid engaging the content of their line and with the new synthesis itself. Just to point that out.

RED DAVE

22nd May 2010, 17:07

The ... new synthesis Bob Avakian has been bringing forward constitutes a qualitative further advancement of communist theoryTell us please that unlike Marx, who actively participated in revolutions for 30 years, and Lenin who was the architect of the Russian Revolution and Mao, for whatever you think he's worth, was at least the leader of the Chinese Revolution, and that their theory are informed by this practice, what [i]practice has Avakian led that would lead us to believe that he has the wherewithal to provide a qualitative advance in theory.

From the perspective of most of us, the RCP has been jerking around for 30 years or so, with virtually no concrete practice. So where does all this wisdom come from?

(PS, I have read a chunk of Avakian, so don't go there.)

RED DAVE

28350

22nd May 2010, 17:17

Simply put,

What is Avakian's New Synthesis?

Monkey Riding Dragon

22nd May 2010, 18:15

Paranoir wrote:
Simply put,

What is Avakian's New Synthesis?

I think a good summation of it can be found here. (http://www.revcom.us/Manifesto/Manifesto.html) The RCP manifesto at that link really is a summarized version of the new synthesis.

RED DAVE wrote:
Tell us please that unlike Marx, who actively participated in revolutions for 30 years, and Lenin who was the architect of the Russian Revolution and Mao, for whatever you think he's worth, was at least the leader of the Chinese Revolution, and that their theory are informed by this practice, what [i]practice has Avakian led that would lead us to believe that he has the wherewithal to provide a qualitative advance in theory.

From the perspective of most of us, the RCP has been jerking around for 30 years or so, with virtually no concrete practice. So where does all this wisdom come from?

If theoretical advancements can only be made during revolutionary times, how then would you explain such prominent historical examples to the contrary as Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels? Likewise, how would you explain the development of Leninism, which largely occurred during a profoundly non-revolutionary period when Lenin was in exile in Switzerland?

It's additionally worth noting that BA did in fact participate in a period of semi-revolutionary upsurge ('60s and '70s political movements in the USA) and did actually visit revolutionary China during the Cultural Revolution and furthermore played a leading role historically in regrouping the Maoist movement after the counterrevolution in China and organizing the RIM in the first place.

(PS, I have read a chunk of Avakian, so don't go there.)

You sure showed me. ;)

RED DAVE

22nd May 2010, 21:44

Tell us please that unlike Marx, who actively participated in revolutions for 30 years, and Lenin who was the architect of the Russian Revolution and Mao, for whatever you think he's worth, was at least the leader of the Chinese Revolution, and that their theory are informed by this practice, what practice has Avakian led that would lead us to believe that he has the wherewithal to provide a qualitative advance in theory.

From the perspective of most of us, the RCP has been jerking around for 30 years or so, with virtually no concrete practice. So where does all this wisdom come from?
If theoretical advancements can only be made during revolutionary times, how then would you explain such prominent historical examples to the contrary as Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels?Don't you read or understand history? Marx and Engels were actively involved, in one capacity or another, from 1848 to the Paris Commune in 1871 and beyond. Their theory was constantly informed by the revolutionary practice, which included the founding of the First International.

Likewise, how would you explain the development of Leninism, which largely occurred during a profoundly non-revolutionary period when Lenin was in exile in Switzerland?Uhh, when Lenin was in exile, which only lasted 12 years, this spanned the time between the Russian revolutions of 1905 and 1917.

It's additionally worth noting that BADon't tempt us. :D

did in fact participate in a period of semi-revolutionary upsurge ('60s and '70s political movements in the USA)I was there too. I don't remember Avakian. :D

But seriously, one of the features of this period was the relative quiescence of the working class, especially in the United States. Only a conscious orientation towards the working class can overcome petit-bourgeois deviations. I find the current practice of the RCP to be conspicuously non-working class in primary orientation.

and did actually visit revolutionary China during the Cultural Revolution and furthermore [i]played a leading role historically in regrouping the Maoist movement after the counterrevolution in China and organizing the RIM in the first place.(emph added)

Well, as to the italicized words, what does that mean. Considering the extraordinarily weak nature of Maoism in the US, that ain't saying a lot.

Anyway, in conclusion, for any of the above, prove me wrong, please, in practice not words.

RED DAVE

Crux

22nd May 2010, 22:16

I have never seen ISO members giving out papers for free and they focus a lot on selling books that they produce. Uh, yeah raising funds is a part of the reason why you have a paper, you know? Reversing your statement, you mean all papers should be handed out for free and books should be produced, but not be sold?
I am not sure how the PSL gets their funds, but for the group I am in, apart from donations and membership fees, we get our money from selling our material. I don't really see how you can hold that against the ISO.

They both label the former Soviet Union, the Eastern Bloc, Cuba and such as "state capitalist." When Trotskyists like Red Dave repudiate this similarity and claim that the RCP is a part of the "Stalinist" camp, authentic socialists don't need to do much more than laugh, since it is obvious that both ideological trends uphold the laughable notion.
Now I find the state capitalist analysis, both of the cliffite variant and the maoist variant, to be superficial and incorrect, but uhm are you saying that "anti-revisionists" are not stalinists? You seem a bit mixed up there, comrade.

Homo Songun

23rd May 2010, 18:40

ISO is run in a business-like mannerWait, how is this a bad thing? To say something is "run in a business-like manner" has generally positive connotations so far as I know. Does this mean that the ISO is too punctual or their propaganda material is too slick? On the other hand, if one was to switch the word order and say that the ISO was "run like a business" that would indeed be questionable behavior, whether or not that is the case. Is that what you meant?

I don't oppose the RCP for being a cult, which is hard to define at any rate. Their cult-like properties are just comedy relief to me. I oppose the RCP because of their political line. Same goes for the ISO.

chegitz guevara

23rd May 2010, 19:37

Future members of the RCP drank mile when they were babies. Future Trotskyists drank milk when they were babies. RCP members breath air. Trotskyists breathe air. :eek: I think astalinist may be on to something!

Barry Lyndon

23rd May 2010, 20:27

It's additionally worth noting that BA did in fact participate in a period of semi-revolutionary upsurge ('60s and '70s political movements in the USA) and did actually visit revolutionary China during the Cultural Revolution and furthermore played a leading role historically in regrouping the Maoist movement after the counterrevolution in China and organizing the RIM in the first place.

When I read Bob Avakian's memoirs 'From Ike to Mao', I was amused by the fact that he really played up his relationships with leaders of the Black Panthers in the 1960's, although it is clear he wasn't really that close to them and he was over-emphasizing his comradeship with them in a desperate attempt to peel some off some of their revolutionary legitimacy. It was like a pop music nerd going on and on about some 5-minute chance meeting with some rock/hip hop star in the vain hope that recounting such a story will help him get laid. It's pathetic. Avakian is pathetic. He's a person with no accomplishments in the last 30+ years except a couple of shitty books that no one except his groupies read. His recorded talks are excruciatingly boring for the most part and wayyy too long, and even the good stuff that he does say has been said by others and in a much less convoluted way.

My defining RCP experience was when I attended a talk at Revolution books by one of the editors of their newspaper, Larry Everest. He was speaking on the subject of Iran, because he had been a free-lance journalist in Teheran right after the fall of the Shah in 1979. I asked him why he thought, based on his experiences, that the leftist and Marxist participants in the Iranian Revolution were crushed by the Islamic fundamentalists. He gave a number of reasonable explanations(which I won't go into here), and then he added 'And they also lacked the proper leadership. And that's why we need.....BOB.....AVAKIAN!', and he then literally took a book with Avakian's face on it in his hand and held it aloft for all too see. I can't describe how freaked out I was. For a minute I thought I was in People's Temple.

I am good friends with some people who left the RCP and joined the Kasama project. They are some of the most intelligent, dedicated, and genuinely sociable people that I know in radical politics. It is a real tragedy is that the RCP has lost these people due to the fact that the party has shelved all real political activity for this three-ring Bob Avakian circus.