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Devrim
18th May 2010, 04:55
Whilst not agreeing with all of this Libcom blog article, I found it very interesting.


A recent exchange with a particularly unpleasant member of the international prochavista left resulted in me meditating on the rhetoric and arguments behind the leftist cheerleading of distant regimes.



The individual in question appeared to be a Leninist, which may explain her tone of argument. In a rather curious piece of rhetoric, she referred to an entirely discredited Libcom thread (http://libcom.org/forums/thought/the-cra-el-libertario-in-venezuela-as-black-propaganda-for-the-us-state-department?quicktabs_1=1) which led to a poster being banned and denounced by his NEFAC comrades, as well as making a bizarre claim that El Libertario (http://nodo50.org/ellibertario/english.html) were "right wingers who say they are anarchists in order to fool the left". The newspaper also attracted her ire for attacking Chomsky's sudden softness for Chávez (http://libcom.org/library/chomsky-chavez-clown). How dare us commit sacrilege against such an idol, after all!
We decided against continuing the correspondence with her, partially because it was being conduced via an intermediary, but mostly due to a sense of ennui amongst folk who have been shouted down for 11 years by disingenous hacks repeating the same, tired lies. However, there was one argument in particular which stuck with me, largely because it has some resonance with some so-called anarchists. She was in favour of Chávez, she said, because "it is clear that the vast majority of the poorest Venezuelans support the government's policies".
Of course, firstly, it is far from clear who supports el proceso and by how much. In the recent PSUV primaries for this year's parliamentary elections, only 38% of the party's members (http://www.tribuna-popular.org/index.php/nacional/6691-mas-de-25-millones-de-militantes-participaron-en-jornada-electoral-interna-del-psuv) even bothered to vote, suggesting widespread disillusionment amongst card-carrying members. Another (nationwide) survey (http://www.scribd.com/doc/29504343/Encuesta-Keller-Primer-trimestre-de-2010) implied that there are now (marginally) more antichavistas than chavistas (32% to 31%), while 63% considered that "things are generally going badly" and 62% actually thought that their problems are getting worse. Hardly surprising then, that yet another survey puts the figure of expected abstention in November at over half: 51%.
Now, we all know that polls are not the most reliable of public barometers, and that we have to consider who commissioned them and to what end. Moreover, it is possible that many people's minds will change in between now and November: Chávez is certainly hoping that his presentation of the already-mooted meagre minimum wage increase (http://www.ultimasnoticias.com.ve/capriles/cadena-global/detalle.aspx?idart=3046138&idcat=56657&tipo=2) (covered back in January here (http://libcom.org/blog/no-light-no-water-now-not-very-much-moneywhat-next-venezuela-31012010)) as a Mayday gift to the nation's workers, as well as all the nationalist pomp and ceremony around the celebrations of the Venezuelan bicentenary, will push up his ratings. Noone is quite sure what will happen in November, hence the increased militarisation of chavismo (http://libcom.org/blog/guns-butter-economic-energy-solutions-socialist-paradise-venezuela-27032010). My point, however, is this: it is far from clear that "the great majority of the poorest Venezuelans" support the government; in fact, if anything, the evidence suggests that opinion on him is divided.
Moreover, even if that were to be the case that Chávez counted on the support of the vast majority of the country, that wouldn't in itself warrant an abandonment of criticism and struggle against the regime. History is littered with successful populist leaders who have managed to manipulate their subjects. That, more than anything else, is the art of politics, after all; the ability to simultaneously gauge and fabricate public opinion, the exact thing that we are struggling against.
So why would someone use a politician's popularity as an argument for unconditional support? One part of this is linked to the ugly, lazy dichotomies which some "anarchists" - especially towards the end which Libcommers have taken to calling "neo-platformists" - manoevre, often under the misnomer of "pragmatism". In said dichotomy there only exists two options in a stagnant, inertiatic world: either attempt to dodge the pink elephant in the room by refusing to denounce the populist leader (after all, wouldn't wanna offend these folk and their religious conviction in him) or risk complete alienation by confronting the sacred cow and criticising him. Like I say, this rather narrow view of world events confines every political landscape into a narrow, pre-prescribed set of events.
Moreover, it requires a sort of doublethink which already belies the proximity of said radicals to the populist ideology: after all, only a chavista could really believe that s/he is a part of a popular movement, and even then, it would demand a certain amount of self-denial (in the case of El Libertario's critic, her observations were based on a visit to Venezuela that, as a member of a prochavista organisation, was presumably organised in conjunction with the Venezuelan state). To my mind, accrediting popularity to a populist amounts to something of a self-fulfilling prophesy.
More crucially however, such lines of arguments expose the post-colonial left as the ugly, patronising creature that it really is. It refers to a worldview - influenced by a clunky, poorly-digested comprehension of developmentalism - in which Westerners are superior in intelligence and education to those brown folk in Thailand (http://libcom.org/news/today-will-be-end-elite-thailand-07042010), Venezuela and Fuckamonkey in Africa, which is why Westerners can demand social revolution while the working class in ex-colonies can only demand literacy programmes and state-run healthcare. Once bolivarianismo et al have failed, then - and only then - will Latin Americans be able to criticise social democracy. Of course, by that point, the former colonial powers will have developed that much further, so the formerly colonised will have to continue pursuing them on an identical path of development.
However, contrary to the Sims-like world of the leftist cheerleader, the trajectory of developing countries is not identical to that of the developed world. It is not merely a simple question of charting various stages in an atemporal vacuum. Today's developing world has access to 21st century technology, an increased level of global self-awareness and analysis, an elite which lives in an opulence that is comparable - even superior in many ways - to the developed world's elite, etc. As a result, the capacity exists within developing countries for cogent analysis, criticism and even struggle against populism. Whereas populism and weak infrastructure can be an obstacle to autonomous political activity in, say, Palestine, in places such as Mexico and South Africa, continued poverty and scarcity have merely served to radicalise workers and social movements.
In Venezuela, there is an anarchist community, mainly based around - but not limited to - the El Libertario newspaper. More importantly, there is a growing number of strikes, demonstrations and social struggles (http://libcom.org/news/el-libertario-why-there-popular-protest-venezuela-21032010) over housing, food shortages, workers' rights, and many more issues. The assertion that the nation is united behind chavismo can be attributed to either despicable disingenuity or hopeless naivete, while the blanket recourse to blanket cultural relativism with regards to developing world populists represents a sort of noble savage-era condescension which borders on racism.


http://libcom.org/blog/venezuela-postcolonial-post-racism-international-left-16052010

Devrim

KC
18th May 2010, 05:02
Didn't read it because it's formatted poorly but I do think that a lot of American leftists (whom I can really only speak on, but would probably include European leftists as well) are incredibly wrapped up in the Orientalism and the mysticism of a romanticized Manichean struggle between "the people" and "the bourgeoisie" or "the imperialists", which can really only be explained as a neurosis used to cope with one's own alienation, either on a social or individual level. This explains the crazy Stalinist/Maoist groups, at least, although I'm positive it cuts across all ideologies.

Devrim
18th May 2010, 05:08
Didn't read it because it's formatted poorly

It looks a lot better if you follow the link.

Devrim

khad
18th May 2010, 05:11
More crucially however, such lines of arguments expose the post-colonial left as the ugly, patronising creature that it really is. It refers to a worldview - influenced by a clunky, poorly-digested comprehension of developmentalism - in which Westerners are superior in intelligence and education to those brown folk in Thailand (http://www.anonym.to/?http://libcom.org/news/today-will-be-end-elite-thailand-07042010), Venezuela and Fuckamonkey in Africa,

Why am I not surprised that this article is posted by the biggest racist defender on revleft? I would give you a verbal for this, just to see you dance around, but I'm not in the mood for more of your drama tonight.


which is why Westerners can demand social revolution while the working class in ex-colonies can only demand literacy programmes and state-run healthcare. Once bolivarianismo et al have failed, then - and only then - will Latin Americans be able to criticise social democracy. Of course, by that point, the former colonial powers will have developed that much further, so the formerly colonised will have to continue pursuing them on an identical path of development.I would like to see what their line on the social dems and the Nazis would have been. Apparently only the complete immiseration of the proletariat through the collapse of anything halfway progressive will awaken them to revolutionary consciousness. This is a completely anti-materialist way of understanding how to build a revolution, to say the least.

You know what? Fuck it, you are getting a verbal for this racist shit.

Feel free to flap your arms with indignant white male rage.

EDIT: I already see you were given a verbal for trolling here just 2 days ago: http://www.revleft.com/vb/new-womyns-struggles-t132266/index.html?p=1748675#post1748675
This means that the warning is automatically upgraded to a PM warning. Congratulations.

KC
18th May 2010, 05:21
Okay, I just read it. It's not exactly what I thought it was about, but it's very close:


More crucially however, such lines of arguments expose the post-colonial left as the ugly, patronising creature that it really is. It refers to a worldview - influenced by a clunky, poorly-digested comprehension of developmentalism - in which Westerners are superior in intelligence and education to those brown folk in Thailand (http://libcom.org/news/today-will-be-end-elite-thailand-07042010), Venezuela and Fuckamonkey in Africa, which is why Westerners can demand social revolution while the working class in ex-colonies can only demand literacy programmes and state-run healthcare. Once bolivarianismo et al have failed, then - and only then - will Latin Americans be able to criticise social democracy. Of course, by that point, the former colonial powers will have developed that much further, so the formerly colonised will have to continue pursuing them on an identical path of development.
This line of argument, while pretty silly, isn't completely wrong. I don't think that these "anti-imperialists" (and there really is no better way of explaining them because they are really only concerned with "opposing imperialism," when you actually get down to the root of their belief system) were attempting to say that the white first-worlders are smarter than the brown third-worlders or whatever. In fact, I think it's the complete opposite.


The reason that anti-imperialists justify movements in developing countries through popularity, the implementation of social programs, etc... isn't because that's as good as they think the "brown people" can do, but rather because they have a very distorted world view which is based on, as I said in my earlier post, "the people" fighting "imperialism/imperialists". They define "the imperialists" for example as the US, and then in turn define "the people" or "the anti-imperialists" as anyone fighting against the US. Hence, they define the latter term negatively as those who are opposed to the US. Because of this very binary view (oppose imperialists/support anti-imperialists) they end up having to attempt to fit everyone into one box or the other.


Because not everything fits so nicely into two distinct, isolated boxes, they end up having to justify their decision to put a movement into one box or the other. "Chavez is anti-imperialist, as he is against the imperialist - the US - and therefore we should support him. We then, after the decision to support him, rationalize that decision with anything we have at our disposal." That is the thinking of the first-world "anti-imperialist".


The racism comes in only subtly, through the very framework of their belief system. "The people" will always take on an Orientalist character, while "the imperialists" will generally mean the US or some other western country, which is generally considered "white". Thus the racism inherent in the framework isn't based on "white superiority" but rather "brown mysticism" or Orientalism.

Barry Lyndon
18th May 2010, 06:04
I think the article quoted in the OP is a defensive projection from someone who caters to the racist stereotype of Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales as tyrannical demagogues guiding stupid easily manipulated peasants and barrios dwellers, because that is the best that 'those people' can manage in the patronizing sneering eyes of left-coms, anarchists, and certain breeds of Trotskyists and Maoists.

Notice how for so many Westerners, even alleged leftists, the allegation that Chavez and Morales are 'populist demagogues' does not need to be supported with evidence, only asserted as fact and swallowed whole. If it were white First World leaders studious fact-checking would be in order, but not so with people of different hues.

Leo
18th May 2010, 08:33
The thread is reinstated and reopened. The is nothing racist about it - criticizing the pro-national liberation stance of the left is not racism - what the article is doing is accusing that stance with racism in fact.

The quoted comment: "More crucially however, such lines of arguments expose the post-colonial left as the ugly, patronising creature that it really is. It refers to a worldview - influenced by a clunky, poorly-digested comprehension of developmentalism - in which Westerners are superior in intelligence and education to those brown folk in Thailand (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://libcom.org/news/today-will-be-end-elite-thailand-07042010), Venezuela and Fuckamonkey in Africa" is an attempted picture of the positions of those criticized, and is described as an ugly, patronizing creature in the previous sentence.

Moreover I will not let, as long as I am able to, attempts to block or sabotage ongoing discussions.

Also these comments:


Fuck it
this ... shit
for this shitAre inflammatory, hence not the proper way a moderator should behave. Consider yourself warned.

SocialismOrBarbarism
18th May 2010, 09:25
I think the article quoted in the OP is a defensive projection from someone who caters to the racist stereotype of Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales has tyrannical demagogues guiding stupid easily manipulated peasants and barrios dwellers, because that is the best that 'those people' can manage in the patronizing sneering eyes of a left-com, anarchist, and certain breeds of Trotskyists and Maoists.

How the fuck can you possibly conclude that? The whole point of the article is that they think that people from those countries can manage more, hence this:


"More crucially however, such lines of arguments expose the post-colonial left as the ugly, patronising creature that it really is. It refers to a worldview - influenced by a clunky, poorly-digested comprehension of developmentalism - in which Westerners are superior in intelligence and education to those brown folk in Thailand, Venezuela and Fuckamonkey in Africa, which is why Westerners can demand social revolution while the working class in ex-colonies can only demand literacy programmes and state-run healthcare."

Not to mention the figures they use to show that the people of Venezuela are in fact not allowing themselves to be manipulated by Chavez's populism.

black magick hustla
18th May 2010, 15:38
i cleaned up this thread a bit. im sorry to interrupt the revolutionary shitparty but keep it relevant guys

gorillafuck
19th May 2010, 01:09
I have noticed a tendency among some western leftists (particularly Marxist-Leninists) to think that third world workers can't assert themselves against a non-US supported or anti-imperialist government unless they're being tricked by the CIA.

Charles Xavier
19th May 2010, 01:32
I have noticed a tendency among some western leftists (particularly Marxist-Leninists) to think that third world workers can't assert themselves against a non-US supported or anti-imperialist government unless they're being tricked by the CIA.
Funny I haven't noticed that.

Barry Lyndon
19th May 2010, 02:53
I wondered what libcom would be saying if Chavez was a blond European...

They have it rough. They know that anyone with half a brain is going to detect the fact that their ilk uniformly denounce revolutionary movements occurring in non-white countries as a regular habit, while they consider the only revolutionary theorists of worth to come from white European nations.

Devrim
19th May 2010, 06:38
They know that anyone with half a brain is going to detect the fact that their ilk uniformly denounce revolutionary movements occurring in non-white countries as a regular habit,

Yes, they do denounce so-called 'revolutionary movements' in what you call 'non-white countries'. They are always talking about workers struggles in these countries though.

A look at their news page today (It always changes so may not be the same latter) shows stories from, Boliva, Bangledesh, England, Russia, Bolivia (same article English version), Yemen, South Africa, Bangladesh, and South Africa again.

Devrim

Devrim
19th May 2010, 07:32
Noticed that you skipped over this part: Do you think that non-whites can contribute/have contributed to revolutionary theory?

Yes, of course. I just thought it was too absurd to bother with. Our organisation for example has members in India, the Philippines, Turkey, Mexico, Venezuela, and Brazil. Of course we think that our militants, as well as other communists, contribute to the development of revolutionary theory.

Devrim