USSR Was Going To Nuke China?

[The Vegan Marxist]

USSR planned nuclear attack on China in 1969
The Soviet Union was on the brink of launching a nuclear attack against China in 1969 and only backed down after the US told Moscow such a move would start World War Three, according to a Chinese historian.

Andrew Osborn in Moscow and Peter Foster in Beijing

The extraordinary assertion, made in a publication sanctioned by China's ruling Communist Party, suggests that the world came perilously close to nuclear war just seven years after the Cuban missile crisis.

Liu Chenshan, the author of a series of articles that chronicle the five times China has faced a nuclear threat since 1949, wrote that the most serious threat came in 1969 at the height of a bitter border dispute between Moscow and Beijing that left more than one thousand people dead on both sides.

He said Soviet diplomats warned Washington of Moscow's plans "to wipe out the Chinese threat and get rid of this modern adventurer," with a nuclear strike, asking the US to remain neutral.

But, he says, Washington told Moscow the United States would not stand idly by but launch its own nuclear attack against the Soviet Union if it attacked China, loosing nuclear missiles at 130 Soviet cities. The threat worked, he added, and made Moscow think twice, while forcing the two countries to regulate their border dispute at the negotiating table.

He quotes Soviet ministers and diplomats at the time to bolster his claim.

On 15 October 1969, he quotes Soviet premier Alexei Kosygin as telling Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev that Washington has drawn up "detailed plans" for a nuclear war against the USSR if it attacked China.

"[The United States] has clearly indicated that China's interests are closely related to theirs and they have mapped out detailed plans for nuclear war against us," Kosygin is said to have told Brezhnev.

That same day he says Anatoly Dobrynin, the Soviet ambassador to Washington, told Brezhnev something similar after consultations with US diplomats. "If China suffers a nuclear attack, they (the Americans) will deem it as the start of the third world war," Dobrynin said. "The Americans have betrayed us."

The historian claims that Washington saw the USSR as a greater threat than China and wanted a strong China to counter-​balance Soviet power. Then US President Richard Nixon was also apparently fearful of the effect of a nuclear war on 250,000 US troops stationed in the Asia-Pacific region and still smarting from a Soviet refusal five years earlier to stage a joint attack on China's nascent nuclear programme.

The claims are likely to stir debate about a period of modern history that remains mired in controversy.

Mr Liu, the author, admits his version of history is likely to be contested by rival scholars. It is unclear whether he had access to special state archives but the fact that his articles appeared in such an official publication in a country where the media is so tightly controlled is being interpreted by some as a sign that he did have special access.

CHINA TESTS THE BOMB:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxgFBKb_8dY

Source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/7720461/USSR-planned-nuclear-attack-on-China-in-1969.html)

Thoughts?

[Barry Lyndon]

Not surprising, really. At one point one quarter of the entire Soviet military was stationed on the border with China. That was one of the major reasons Mao unleashed the army to crack down on the Red Guards in 1969, he realized that China could not afford to be wracked with internal unrest when facing down the Soviet threat. I read a memoir of a Maoist who visited China in 1971 and observed that the Chinese were building cities deep in the interior of western China so they could rebuild the country in the event of a Soviet or American nuclear attack. Frightening stuff.

[Psy]

Not surprising, really. At one point one quarter of the entire Soviet military was stationed on the border with China. That was one of the major reasons Mao unleashed the army to crack down on the Red Guards in 1969, he realized that China could not afford to be wracked with internal unrest when facing down the Soviet threat. I read a memoir of a Maoist who visited China in 1971 and observed that the Chinese were building cities deep in the interior of western China so they could rebuild the country in the event of a Soviet or American nuclear attack. Frightening stuff.
While the USSR could in theory win a conventional war against NATO if NATO did not escalate, the USSR would mostly would have has to use tactical nukes heavily in a war with China to deal with vast numerical superiority of China especially before the USSR developed thermobaric artillery in the 1980's even then the thermobaric artillery and bombs were deployed in the European theater to open the Fulda Gap for Warsaw armor to steamroll over NATO positions in West Germany.

So yes frightening stuff

[RED DAVE]

This would also explain why Nixon and Mao did kissy-nice with each other while the US was slaughtering Vietnamese.

RED DAVE

[Psy]

Cool story bro. Stalin did kissy-nice with Roosevelt and Churchill. So did Lenin with the Central Powers in 1917, as did Trotsky with many western imperialists.:(

Yet Lenin and Trotsky was mostly defensive pacts out of what was seen as necessity as they were an island of revolution against the entire capitalist world, also Lenin and Trotsky actually wanted revolution in Germany and would probably have gone against their pacts with the capitalists if Germany became a workers state with a decent revolutionary army.

[Psy]

We don't know what they would have done. The point is that according to some people, communists should not shake hands with any imperialists. However material necessities, like the encircling of China and possibility of getting nuked by the Soviet imperialists, dictate our actions otherwise.
Right but the USSR treating war with China shows the USSR was far from spreading revolution. Also Cuba shook its fists at both the USSR and USA, not only from Che but later from Castro calling the USSR cowards for backing down in the Cuban Missie Crisis instead of kicking off WWIII in response to the actions of the US.

[hardlinecommunist]

Source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/7720461/USSR-planned-nuclear-attack-on-China-in-1969.html)

Thoughts?
Yes this report is true the Soviet Revisionists really did have such plans to attack China at that time.

[S.Artesian]

Yeah, well it certainly puts the truth to claims of a US-USSR attempt to encircle China, and supports instead the claim of a US-China convergence against the USSR.

[Saorsa]

Yet Lenin and Trotsky was mostly defensive pacts out of what was seen as necessity as they were an island of revolution against the entire capitalist world, also Lenin and Trotsky actually wanted revolution in Germany and would probably have gone against their pacts with the capitalists if Germany became a workers state with a decent revolutionary army.

And Mao supported the CPP in the Philippines at the same time as he was being friendly with the Marcos family. We should also keep in mind that Mao was never in complete control of the CCP, and not every decision made by it was one he supported. Zhou Enlai and his supporters had a lot of influence on China's foreign policy, and he was always more of a pragmatist than Mao was. There were always factional struggles of various kinds going on.

[bailey_187]

Yeah, well it certainly puts the truth to claims of a US-USSR attempt to encircle China, and supports instead the claim of a US-China convergence against the USSR.

Well, according to Martin McKauly (the historian, not the Sinn Fein guy), after the reaprochment between China and USA, the USA told the USSR that it would respond to any attacks on China.

I think stopping millions of Chinese being nuked by the USSR is worth the embaressing pictures, confusion among Maoists outside of China and silly comments from Trots.

[S.Artesian]

Well, according to Martin McKauly (the historian, not the Sinn Fein guy), after the reaprochment between China and USA, the USA told the USSR that it would respond to any attacks on China.

I think stopping millions of Chinese being nuked by the USSR is worth the embaressing pictures, confusion among Maoists outside of China and silly comments from Trots.


Good for you. But the pictures you are referring to take place in 1972, and this incident, if it actually occurred, is in 1969.

And what comments are you referring to-- the comments that examine the US/China/Union of South Africa alliance in Angola? The comments regarding China's embrace of Pinochet?

Obviously there was no need for China to ally with the US, for example, in Angola, as the US nuclear umbrella was extended to China in 1969 according to this report when China and the US were "mortal enemies."

I don't think you're going to find a Marxist of any persuasion who would defend the USSR threatening China with nuclear weapons.

But hey, keep up the ideological knee-jerkism. It's a way to stay active.

[rednordman]

This would also explain why Nixon and Mao did kissy-nice with each other while the US was slaughtering Vietnamese.

RED DAVE:confused:Why I know what you are saying is true, I swear blind that china did infact aid vietnam during that war. Can anyone clear this up for me?

[Psy]

And Mao supported the CPP in the Philippines at the same time as he was being friendly with the Marcos family. We should also keep in mind that Mao was never in complete control of the CCP, and not every decision made by it was one he supported. Zhou Enlai and his supporters had a lot of influence on China's foreign policy, and he was always more of a pragmatist than Mao was. There were always factional struggles of various kinds going on.

Same with the Bolshivks yet the Bolshivks had Trotsky having influence on Russia's foreign policy and control of the army that at was somewhat in line with what Lenin wanted and was disciplined enough to put his differences aside when following orders.

[Psy]

Would you rather have had them allied with Soviet imperialists? The US and the Soviet Union were the two imperialist powers during that time and the Soviet Union was located next to Chinese borders.
In reality as long as China was also hostile towards NATO the USSR could not realistically have a prolong conflict with China as NATO was much larger threat to the USSR.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Would you rather have had them allied with Soviet imperialists? The US and the Soviet Union were the two imperialist powers during that time and the Soviet Union was located next to Chinese borders.

The Soviets weren't "imperialists," and Eurasian economic integration between the Warsaw Pact, Mongolia, China, and Vietnam would have been hugely beneficial.

[Qayin]

The Soviets weren't "imperialists,"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact_invasion_of_Czechoslovakia


Would you rather have had them allied with Soviet imperialists? The US and the Soviet Union were the two imperialist powers during that time and the Soviet Union was located next to Chinese borders. I hate this idea of a lesser evil, you cant compare the USSR to the USA.
The USA then and now is a fucking demon, the USSR at this time was a schoolyard bully.
The whole split is a fucking stupid idea, so much for internationalism.



I agree with that. They were just imperialists looking to convert China into a colony.
Oh please, I'm not even a ML and I don't see this at all.


Cool story bro. Stalin did kissy-nice with Roosevelt and Churchill. So did Lenin with the Central Powers in 1917, as did Trotsky with many western imperialists.

Sigh.

[The Vegan Marxist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact_invasion_of_Czechoslovakia



:confused: It was of their socialist republic, in which was being destroyed under the liberalization by Alexander's reforms. If the USSR didn't react to this occurrence then....well...we already know what happens when you mix liberal reforms with socialist economics - Gorbachev. How you see this as an imperialist tactic is beyond me.

[Qayin]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/confused1.gif It was of their socialist republic, in which was being destroyed under the liberalization by Alexander's reforms. If the USSR didn't react to this occurrence then....well...we already know what happens when you mix liberal reforms with socialist economics - Gorbachev. How you see this as an imperialist tactic is beyond me.

To invade a nation(funny when i see ML's speak of self determination) and make them conform to the Soviet Bureaucratic System through military domination, subordination and expansionism of the Soviet system on the eastern bloc in the name of liberation while killing people(working class people) who resisted.


I know theirs going to be people who call me petit-bourgeois because somehow they see me as defending capitalism, fuck capitalism and fuck the Nomenklatura caste who destroyed the name of socialism

[Glenn Beck]

Did the USSR have contingency plans to use tactical and strategic nukes in case of war with China? Extremely likely.

Did the story this article tells, where the USSR says "Hey USA gonna nuke China now" and the US responds "Oh no you aren't if you do we nuke you" happen?

I'm very skeptical.

[Psy]

From a non-Chinese perspective, yes that may be true. But in 1967, the Chinese were seeing the Soviet imperialists lining up to invade them and colonize them. The Soviets were also next door to China unlike the US. We may argue today as to which imperialist country was worse, but its important to situate historical events in their right place.

The British was in Hong Kong that is much closer then the USSR and don't forget the US's unsinkable aircraft carrier the nation Japan, and that the US planed to use nukes against China in the Korean war in a plan to march right into the China and occupy China from N.Korea. The USA might have objected to the USSR nuking China but had no objection to it nuking China itself.

[The Vegan Marxist]

To invade a nation(funny when i see ML's speak of self determination) and make them conform to the Soviet Bureaucratic System through military domination, subordination and expansionism of the Soviet system on the eastern bloc in the name of liberation while killing people(working class people) who resisted.


I know theirs going to be people who call me petit-bourgeois because somehow they see me as defending capitalism, fuck capitalism and fuck the Nomenklatura caste who destroyed the name of socialism

Well the reforms that were being brought by Alexander were capitalistic, in which the USSR had every right to react. So it doesn't matter whether you say "fuck capitalism" or not, because if you don't support in the actions taken place by the Soviet Union against Alexanders reforms, then you are indirectly supporting capitalist emergence within Czech, which would've destroyed the country.

[Die Neue Zeit]

This should be in the History forum.

[Saorsa]

The Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia was an imperialist act.

[mykittyhasaboner]

The Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia was an imperialist act.

How? I respect your opinion but it's a bit unfounded if your going to state it was an imperialist act without explaining. How was Soviet intervention of Czechoslovakia an imperialist act, while for example the Chinese ending of Tibetan autonomy wasn't? Military intervention to reverse attempts at liberalization can hardly be called imperialist because it doesn't involve economic exploitation.

On the thread itself, it actually should be in history.

[khad]

A bit of worthless historical revisionism. This SHOCKING EXPOSE (TM) isn't anything new--in fact it's been promulgated by various mainstream diplo historians like Gordon Chang for decades. The only difference is that this time, there's a few pounds of national chauvinist outrage mixed in.

Was there a chance that there could have been nuclear war on the Chinese border? Certainly, considering that China attacked the USSR in 1969. The irony is that China attacked at Damansky island, an island that Khrushchev had been perfectly willing to sign away in the early 60s, before Mao stupidly torpedoed talks because he claimed suzerainty over all the islands in the Amur/Heilonjiang, as well as much of Siberia, as that had been Manchu territory (which is even more ironic because Manchus treated ethnic Chinese like second class citizens and only considered China to be one part of their multi-ethnic empire)

Had the conflict escalated, the USSR would have been in its right to go nuclear, since the border at the time was not well defended at all--in fact the Chinese heavily outnumbered the Soviets, who only had small detachments of half-company strength scattered among various outposts. Up until then China had not been viewed as a threat.

Was there geostrategic interest in not starting WW3 that prevented nuclear war? Absolutely. Did some of this take into account possible American actions and responses? Very likely.

At the same time, one must realize that Mao throwing away several hundred of his soldiers' lives in a futile attack on Damansky Island (which the USSR had been perfectly willing to give away) was also a signal to the capitalist west that China wanted to "deal."

This is why Maoist geopolitics is always a proposition of failure--because whatever "insidious" plot against China comes to light, a further investigation will reveal that it had roots in some idiotic fucked up thing that Mao did.

P.S. It's convenient that no one mentions how the USSR prevented any nuclear attack on China in the 1950s by stating that the USA would be nuked in response. This was during the Korean war and the ongoing skirmishes with Taiwan.

[Ismail]

This was apparently written in the mid-70's, an amusing thing from a Maoist showing how bad relations were, which mentions Albania, too:

The Soviet fascists, who are arming their military on the basis of nazism, hitlerism and following the playbook of Operation Barbarossa and of Munich, are hoping to launch an aggressive and wholly unprovoked invasion of China... these attacks are to be launched against a people who are arising in the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, led by the great Marxist-Leninist Mao Tse-tung and the great commander Lin Piao...

Today, the peoples of China are 'storming the heavens' by uniting against the Soviet social-imperialists and American imperialists, and connecting the masses with the party as part of the great proletarian and cultural revolution of the working people united firmly under the great banner of Mao Tse-tung Thought, which is opposed by the Soviet revisionists, who are daily studying from the workbook of Adolph Hitler, Benito Mussolini, and of the Titoites....

The Soviet plan is a devious plan for the destruction of China; for its enslavement under a puppet regime similar in effect to those under the dictates of the Warsaw Treaty... to complete this invasion of which a ten-times thousandth Hitlers shall mobilize and march across the Sino-Soviet border, the Soviet imperialist aggressors are engaging in chauvinistic and Great-Russian fascist-like Tsarism....

Like Adolf Hitler at Munich, the American imperialists have much to gain from dividing up China into Soviet colonies. They will see and assist in the weakening of a genuinely proletarian state, led by the dictatorship of the proletariat and firmly following the immortal Marxist-Leninist course against revisionism and international imperialism... the Soviet aggressors are hoping to launch a murderous assault upon the mighty Chinese peoples, who are preparing for these attacks through firm study in dialectical materialism, historical-materialist works, and through the great study of the ever greater Marxist-Leninist theoretician and leader, Comrade Mao Tse-tung...

The Soviet revisionist fascists are building up an economy of the war type to occupy lands which have long been a part of China and which are inhabited by the ethnic Chinese people... as part of this plot; of this dark agency of Soviet militarism, the Brezhnev-Kosygin clique is attempting without fail to accelerate its military development, to prepare a massive invasion against the People's Republic of China, and to destroy it utterly and without remorse as part of its deviant pro-capitalist formations, of its state-capitalist and social-imperialist outlook...

In an article recently published in the Peking Review, it has been estimated that $100,000 million is being spent for nuclear development... it is not above the Soviet barbarians to launch a nuclear strike against the Chinese people, to murder millions in their demonic quests for total control; for a lebensraum on an unprecedented scale...

Albanian Comrade Enver Hoxha, a great Marxist-Leninist fighter and defender of the purity of the Marxist-Leninist ideology, theory and practice, and great ally of Comrade Mao Tse-tung, has said that the People's Republic of Albania will defend the great People's Republic of China in battle against the Soviet social-imperialist renegades from socialism, who in every passing day are accentuating their claims against Chinese territory and are slavishly promoting Pan-Slavic chauvinism directed both against the Albanian and Chinese peoples, the former through the Yugoslav chauvinists and their Titoite leadership....

Only Marxism-Leninism, the ideology of proletarian internationalism and of people's war, can defend against the rampaging ambitions of the Soviet social-imperialist aggressors who drastically seek to participate in an expected mass murder of the Chinese people... for the acquisition of the territories of Zhen-bao and others either rightfully held by the Chinese people or occupied by Soviet revisionist and fascist-like aggression...I expect Khad to rage at it.

FWIW, Hoxha regarded the Sino-Soviet border disputes as stupid and un-Marxist in regards to both the Soviet and Chinese views on the subject.

[InuyashaKnight]

The Sino-Soviet spilt ruined the whole movement. Atleast there better friends now.

[khad]

The Sino-Soviet spilt ruined the whole movement. Atleast there better friends now.
Too bad both are capitalist powers now.

You know, what should be noted is that even though the USSR was hostile to China, there were limits set in the official political discourse. In fact, many of the famous dissidents like Solzhenitsyn were hardcore anti-Chinese xenophobes, who believed that Communism had led Russian civilization away from its roots in Europe and suggested an alliance with the capitalist West to crush the eastern barbarian hordes. Specifically, Solzhenitsyn then went on to argue in later years for the re-colonization of Africa.

[ComradeRed22'91]

I'll second that. Military intervention (especially towards people who want capitalism) is different from economic exploitation.