Antifa England

[EasternCharlie]

New domain address is antifaengland.org.uk



Ta.

[Joesky]

To quote antifaengland.org.uk:

"THE AUTHORITARIAN LEFT

For decades revolutionary left groups such as the Trotskyite Socialist Workers Party, have opportunistically used the mobilisation against fascism as a way of trying to swell their membership numbers and the coffers of their party. We are not interested in working with these groups, nor with their front groups, such as the Anti-Nazi League™ or Unite Against Fascism™. Our experience is that these front groups exist merely to try and recruit members on behalf of the controlling party, to peddle their papers, and to manipulate and marginalize genuine anti-fascists. In the past we have seen the leadership of such fronts collaborate not only with the State, but also with the fascists themselves. We will not be fooled again, and advise genuine anti-fascists within these organisations to leave, after which we may be able to work with them."

Oh really?

[El Rojo]

in over a year of attending anti fash demos, i have yet to see the vaunted antifa.

obv being swp im too biased to comment though! :laugh:

[No pasarán]

in over a year of attending anti fash demos, i have yet to see the vaunted antifa.

obv being swp im too biased to comment though! :laugh:

Only a year... well probably missed the days when AntiFa bothered to attend many demos. Anyways, attending demos has both the strength and weakness of making you visable. To all the right and all the wrong people.

Far better to hit em out of sight. Plus despite the rise of the likes of the EDL, pitched street battles that worked so well for AFA (who funnilly enough orginated in the SWP, before being forced out by their own party) are just not gonna work as well these days. For one thing the left does not generally attract as much of the working class as it used to. And lets be honest, how many people in the UAF really recon they could handle themselves in a streetfight. Also the police survillence has gonna all 1984 on everyone, makes it a lot harder to consitently turn up to protests, kick a few known fascists in the teeth and get away with it don't you think?

[Boru]

Also the police survillence has gonna all 1984 on everyone, makes it a lot harder to consitently turn up to protests, kick a few known fascists in the teeth and get away with it don't you think?

Particularly in England.

[MaoTseHelen]

To quote antifaengland.org.uk:

"THE AUTHORITARIAN LEFT

For decades revolutionary left groups such as the Trotskyite Socialist Workers Party, have opportunistically used the mobilisation against fascism as a way of trying to swell their membership numbers and the coffers of their party. We are not interested in working with these groups, nor with their front groups, such as the Anti-Nazi League™ or Unite Against Fascism™. Our experience is that these front groups exist merely to try and recruit members on behalf of the controlling party, to peddle their papers, and to manipulate and marginalize genuine anti-fascists. In the past we have seen the leadership of such fronts collaborate not only with the State, but also with the fascists themselves. We will not be fooled again, and advise genuine anti-fascists within these organisations to leave, after which we may be able to work with them."


These guys are legit, good for them.

[El Rojo]

Only a year... well probably missed the days when AntiFa bothered to attend many demos. Anyways, attending demos has both the strength and weakness of making you visable. To all the right and all the wrong people.

ok, but if no demos were attended, the strength of being visible to "right" people wouldnt exist.


Far better to hit em out of sight.

I reckon this is valid way of dealing with fash groups, but the BNP and EDL cannot be wiped out entirely by the stealthly antics of a group of antifa ninjas, they need to be opposed when they march. for this, UAF. i think this entire debate is bull. it all shows the value of diversity of tactics. some clandastine groups doing quiet damage is good, as is a mass movement on the streets. so why not back both. there is no one "right" tactic for dealing with the fash. so lets double team the fuckers.

[HamishFTW]

They allegedly beat the fuck out of a group who were beating the fuck out of a group consisting of AFed (amongst others I should imagine) who were protesting the leader's debate in Bristol.

[No pasarán]

They allegedly beat the fuck out of a group who were beating the fuck out of a group consisting of AFed (amongst others I should imagine) who were protesting the leader's debate in Bristol.

Antifa didn't realise a statement confirming that, but antifa never really publicises that kinda action anyways.

[No pasarán]

ok, but if no demos were attended, the strength of being visible to "right" people wouldnt exist.

Demos againsts fascists are only worth it when you out number then 10 to 1 and prefrably can use it as a show of strength. You have to pressure them off the street and offer there potential recruits and victims a proper alternative.


I reckon this is valid way of dealing with fash groups, but the BNP and EDL cannot be wiped out entirely by the stealthly antics of a group of antifa ninjas, they need to be opposed when they march. for this, UAF. i think this entire debate is bull. it all shows the value of diversity of tactics. some clandastine groups doing quiet damage is good, as is a mass movement on the streets. so why not back both. there is no one "right" tactic for dealing with the fash. so lets double team the fuckers.

Since one of the greatest living london anti fascists was told "you must assume people think you are a rascist, because you are white and working class" (And I CAN source this) by UAF and I have been accused of being a nazi as well...as have many others who have tried to help them. I do admitably have a shaved head and tattoos and I am working class.. so I can understand it their overeducated eyes I am a threat. I don't trust them and I see them as part of the problem with the left.

Not attacking you, just have no time for the SWP. They have never done anything for me, other than try to sell me a paper. Almost everything I have seen any wing of the SWP part of they try to take most of the credit for. It is a shame there is not a better party of that scale for people to join. If the left could come together a bit more like it did in the 80s/90s we would be better. Groups like Red Action had allies with a lot of other left groups. AFA were very, very effective. Unfourtunately the left does not attract the working class like it once did, especially those who were suitable to er... 'steward', protests.

[Palingenisis]

Since one of the greatest living london anti fascists was told "you must assume people think you are a rascist, because you are white and working class" (And I CAN source this) by UAF and I have been accused of being a nazi as well...as have many others who have tried to help them. I do admitably have a shaved head and tattoos and I am working class.. so I can understand it their overeducated eyes I am a threat. I don't trust them and I see them as part of the problem with the left. .

What was that all about?

I really dont understand Trots.

[No pasarán]

What was that all about?

I really dont understand Trots.

The ignorance of most people in the UAF.

[El Rojo]

Since one of the greatest living london anti fascists was told "you must assume people think you are a rascist, because you are white and working class" (And I CAN source this) by UAF and I have been accused of being a nazi as well...as have many others who have tried to help them. I do admitably have a shaved head and tattoos and I am working class.. so I can understand it their overeducated eyes I am a threat. I don't trust them and I see them as part of the problem with the left.

Why did you quote my previous statement above this? At no point did you answer any of my points. Dont source that incident, i will take your word for it. Yup, we trots have our problems, i know for example that an anarchist was forced of a protest area in manchester on time by a UAF steward also. however, these are isolated incidents, the other 1000s of demonstrators were noisily opposing the fash. you cant write off the UAF due to a couple of incidents as totally useless, whilst ignoring all t positive stuff.

overeducated? im sorry, what kind of leftist says that? a) one cannot have to much knowledge, its power ect and b) the SWP is a socialist organisation, that means you can be a uni student or a postal worker or a garbage man or unemployed. it doesnt matter. we are the people, all types, thats where we draw our strength and if you think that the swp is all "overeducated" people, you clearly have not studied it enough.

[Palingenisis]

overeducated? im sorry, what kind of leftist says that? a) one cannot have to much knowledge, its power ect and b) the SWP is a socialist organisation, that means you can be a uni student or a postal worker or a garbage man or unemployed. it doesnt matter. we are the people, all types, thats where we draw our strength and if you think that the swp is all "overeducated" people, you clearly have not studied it enough.

I know exactly what he means and its not an attack on education or learning as such. Its the fact that a lot of middle class people have had the luxury of playing with various ideas as if they existed on just some mental plain and their intellectual ideas are completely divorced from the real world. Maybe I havent said that as clearly as it could be said but I think someone will get what Im trying to say and explain it better.

Also class composition matters.

[Palingenisis]

The ignorance of most people in the UAF.

More like absolute insanity...Loads of boys around the place here have tatooes and shaved heads. None of them are nazies. Thats one of the maddest things Ive ever heard.

[No pasarán]

Why did you quote my previous statement above this? At no point did you answer any of my points. Dont source that incident, i will take your word for it. Yup, we trots have our problems, i know for example that an anarchist was forced of a protest area in manchester on time by a UAF steward also. however, these are isolated incidents, the other 1000s of demonstrators were noisily opposing the fash. you cant write off the UAF due to a couple of incidents as totally useless, whilst ignoring all t positive stuff.

overeducated? im sorry, what kind of leftist says that? a) one cannot have to much knowledge, its power ect and b) the SWP is a socialist organisation, that means you can be a uni student or a postal worker or a garbage man or unemployed. it doesnt matter. we are the people, all types, thats where we draw our strength and if you think that the swp is all "overeducated" people, you clearly have not studied it enough.

Like I said I'm not having a go at you. Just expressing my distrust for the SWP. I am sure there are still some workers in there and I personelly see you (from what little I know of you) as someone I could work with. Also I did answer some of your posts, but I was addressing areas of it rather than idividual points to be honest.

But where has UAF actually stopped anything. Sure its made lots of noise and chanted a lot (including chants about the bnp when opposing the edl???). But its hardly had the success they've had with there association with the Stop the War campaigns- a SWP success, even if they did not achive their aims lets be honest who was running that protest and just how many people came out. Plus UAF works with mainstream, capitalist politicians who I do not trust either. Please tell me where you think the UAF is positive.

By 'overeducated' I mean the sheer arrogance I have encountred from SWP/ UAF members. Not Every Member Is Like This. I know that. But the majority I have met, seemed to think they were part of some political elite. I have also met very, very few SWP who were working class. And yes you can have a degree and still be working class, but even that seems to be an exception in the SWP... let alone people who work in factories etc (tho I am sure they exist).

ANYWAYS this is not a debate about the SWP. Its a debate about where and when certain people should be present. Have you ever been arrested? Once you have been arrested you are eaiser to pick out. Thats what the FIT squad is for. The police also have trouble to ban known 'troublemakers' from using there right to protest. And unless most other people on the protest are masked up, you're gonna look like a pretty easy target to the police. Sure, you can 'de-arrest' people as they are being grabbed, but that is of course illegal and if you don't have the full support of the rest of the protestors kinda hard to pull off.

It would be great if we got the numbers they do in mainland europe turning up to protests against the fash. But the fact is the left is too divided for the most part to work together, which is sad. I have tried to work with the UAF and it failed because they wanted to control me and my friends. I have met some very nice people who are members of UAF but clearly didn't have the understanding of how to beat the fascists.

The 43 Group, 62 Group, the SWP own 'squads', AFA and AntiFa have had the right idea, though it gets hard with every new generation as goverments crack down more each time. But Legit protests will only work if EVERYONE in the left comes together and protests together and one party doesn't try to control the others.