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LadyJacobin
15th May 2010, 04:59
Why would anyone call themselves a Jacobin? "What, that lunatic bunch of French extremists?" Or, if you are the more RevSoc type, "What, that bunch of middle-class revolutionaries who killed Babeuf?"
Well, both of these are true, and on both counts I plead guilty: I am a radical left extremist (a montagnard if you will) and a rabid anti-communist. Just why I hope to make, if not clear, at least less opaque.

I want to make clear from the outset that I regard communists, anarchists and even progressives to be 'leftist' and children of radicalism generally. But I consider them more or less mistaken, and regard especially the Progressives (Social Democrats) to be the most dangerous to the accomplishment of radical goals, and I think the communists and anarchists might agree with me here. Is it because they are not radical enough, perhaps?

Of any of the classical radicals, I would probably identify with individual anarchists and Levellers more than anything, but I think they both have fundamental flaws in their view of the world.

Why Radicalism?
Political radicalism is essentially something which aims at 'getting to the root' of an issue, dealing with causes rather than symptoms. It is visceral, dangerous and almost deductive form of political discourse. It shows its value precisely when present knowledge conveys supreme error with the current situation, as regards the mass of the human species. Unfortunately, radicalism can be misdirected, confused, mistaken - as it is a human enterprise. To state a simple example in logic, we may be convinced we have made a deduction when, in fact, we have not made such a deduction.
I view radicalism as having three main branches, inter-related and complementary when properly understood. I will outline them here, but by no means claim to have made a definitive statement. I will proceed, Heidegger like, with my intention: these are the branches of radicalism which concern me. These are Republicanism, Liberalism and Socialism.

Radical Republicanism derives largely from Civic Humanism, which developed its doctrines based on an idealized combination of Roman and Greek Republican/Democratic ideas with Renaissance humanistic doctrines of education, citizenship and political theology. Its ultimate products were the the Glorious Revolution, the American War of Secession and the French Revolution.
Montaigne was especially influential on 18th century republicanism, writers like Locke and Paine had more influence in the American colonies of Britain as they appealed more strongly to the developed notion of 'rights of Englishmen'. The Anglophone and Francophone economists had tremendous influence in some parties of the American and French revolutions.
It stakes itself on the idea of the res publica and the republic which emvodies it. It is the belief that citizens of virtue, organized under the laws of nature and reason, will be able to profit from one another's association and thereby become subject to duties as regards the community in general and the state which embodies its defense.

Radical Liberalism is the theory of individual responsibility and freedom to act. Liberalism generally states itself on the premise that individuals may do as they please, insofar as they do not infringe upon the equal freedom of others. There is, in other words, a certain sphere of action which is private and not subject to coercion. Liberalism generally views the legitimacy of the state to be with regards to its will and competence in respecting and protecting this freedom to act. It is strongly connected with the burgeoning science of economics, and its proofs of the advantage of free trade. States which infringe an individual unjustly may typically be subject to pleas, indemnification to victims and, if these fail, overthrow or abolition.

Radical Socialism is the belief that putting the economic and political life into the hands of the community would be both possible and desirable. It is the belief in the equal value of men, of the benefit of mutual association and of the responsibility of individuals toward members of the community regardless of their ability to recompense.

I consider myself a radical republicanism because I believe that a republic built upon the virtue of individual citizens, and social institutions constructed by reason with a mind to instilling virtue, are both possible and desirable. I believe individuals have a responsibility towards their community and the civilization that they make possible. Every citizen has a duty in general to every state which embodies the res publica. I support Republicanism as a form of state because I believe that a federal, explicitly Republican constitution built on true representative democracy is the only possible and desirable form of government, and all other states sink into base tyranny.

I consider myself a radical liberal because I believe in the equal freedom of all men, to do as they please and not to be bothered by others, so long as they can respect the freedom of others; without concern for popular opinion or prejudice and without concern of those who are jealous of their regard or material disposition - whether richer or poorer. I consider all arguments against freedom of trade and occupation to be despotic throwbacks to oriental systems of caste and mercantalist systems of monopoly. I believe that any government which consistently violates the natural rights of individuals is an evil one, and deserves nothing but the revolutionary noose.

I consider myself a socialist because I believe in the right of the community to regulate the exceptions of individual activity, to compel him to pay heed to some minimal standards, and that it may expect him to contribute and attempt to find his way in the social life.

Why middle-class radicalism?

I am against Marxist class-warfare, Hitlerian race-warfare and Fascist nation-warfare. I believe in war for one thing, and one thing alone: a free government for free individuals. I am a 'middle-class' or 'burgher' radical because I advocate freedom of trade and freedom of property, of the right for individuals to practice their own life at their own hazard. I believe that without property there is no responsibility, and without responsibility there is no morality. I believe an essential element of justice is desert, and one thing the innocent are not deserving of is punishment. And even when people say, "He is just lucky" I say, "What of it? Is luck a crime? And who decides whom is lucky?"
I oppose all cartelism, banksterism, and other assorted perfidies of finance engendered by subsidy, regulation and tariff. All individuals, all citizens, are to be propertied citizens, and not subject to the whims of agencies for the enrichment of the vile and deceitful arms of the 'corporate' state.

Okay, but Why Jacobin?
Some might ask me at this point, why am I a Jacobin? Why do I not call myself a libertarian. Well, I am: I am a radical republican - a Jacobin, a radical liberal - a Libertarian. I would call myself a radical socialist, because of my devotion to both res publica and general welfare; but it seems that does not qualify anymore. In any case, I identify with Proudhon in this area.

I am not a 'libertarian' of the weak-kneed sort one sees going to 'party conventions'. I am a firm believer in the establishment of clubs which act as though they run the state, and are prepared to at any instant replace it. And I am an unabashed supporter of terrorism, when it is used against the forces of reaction, counter-revolution and crankism. All those who conspire to attack the republic or the liberty for which it stands are traitors or enemies, and in either case deserve no clemency. Justice shapes its implements as suits the situation, and once guilt is established it may be as quick and brutal as is deemed necessary by the citizenry.

I reject individual terrorism, mostly for the same reasons Trotsky did, I think it's a useless tactic.

LadyJacobin
15th May 2010, 05:05
Perhaps I should have put this in 'Theory'?

khad
15th May 2010, 05:06
In the OI you go.

Qayin
15th May 2010, 05:43
Radical Republicanism/Liberalism? Such bourgeois horseshit.

Your drowning in the sea of irrelevant and ancient theories


I advocate freedom of trade and freedom of property, of the right for individuals to practice their own life at their own hazard. I believe that without property there is no responsibility, and without responsibility there is no morality. I believe an essential element of justice is desert, and one thing the innocent are not deserving of is punishment. And even when people say, "He is just lucky" I say, "What of it? Is luck a crime? And who decides whom is lucky?"
I oppose all cartelism, banksterism, and other assorted perfidies of finance engendered by subsidy, regulation and tariff. All individuals, all citizens, are to be propertied citizens, and not subject to the whims of agencies for the enrichment of the vile and deceitful arms of the 'corporate' state.face palm

syndicat
15th May 2010, 05:50
You seem to have not noticed that the USA over time has become ever more dominated by concentrated plutocratic power. The USA could be described as a soft totalitarian state. The Dems and Repubs are both totally in the pocket of the plutocracy as is the ever more concentrated corporate media. Ideas that would upset the plutocracy are ignored or mocked by the media. Mass antiwar demos are ignored, as they were not in the '60s, an indication of the governing institutions moving ever farther out of reach of the average person. but this is a republic, a pseudo-democratic "representative" government.

Even if somehow property in means of production could be broken up and distributed to many property owners -- good luck with that one! -- it would get re-concentrated again under your free market regime. Talk about the general welfare is just talk if the masses lack the power to obtain it.

In fact the function of the republican state is to defend and sustain the interests of the capitalist class. This is why it tends to work as it does. Any state will tend to work for a dominating and exploiting class if the mass of the people do not have a directly democratic say over goverance...and then you don't have a state anymore.

LadyJacobin
15th May 2010, 06:54
You seem to have not noticed that the USA over time has become ever more dominated by concentrated plutocratic power.
A mixture of plutocracy, mobocracy and intellectual bodygaurdism.

The USA could be described as a soft totalitarian state.
Agreed.

but this is a republic, a pseudo-democratic "representative" government.
Not quite - it's a Jacksonian democracy, and in this sense may be a 'republic' but it is not a res publica. By my standards the U.S. government had inherent flaws, and its historical actions would have it justifiably overthrown.

It is not money that corrupts government, but government that corrupts money.

Even if somehow property in means of production could be broken up and distributed to many property owners -- good luck with that one! -- it would get re-concentrated again under your free market regime. Talk about the general welfare is just talk if the masses lack the power to obtain it.
There is no tendency in the market towards centralization. Only under political capitalism does this tendency toward monopoly and regulation-created cartels appear. See Gabriel Kolko's Triumph of Conservatism.


In fact the function of the republican state is to defend and sustain the interests of the capitalist class.
I don't disagree with this definition, per se, only I do not agree with 1) Marx's assessment of the 'internal contradictions' of laissez-faire capitalism. In fact, what he describes is hampered capitalism, so I can hardly see how it even applies to market economies or 2) that the 'capitalist' class is some exploitative entity. It is rather all free, propertied citizens - which is to say, everyone who is not a criminal.

Qayin
15th May 2010, 07:03
It is not money that corrupts government, but government that corrupts money.
Now THIS is a sold analysis.:laugh:


There is no tendency in the market towards centralization
Gilded age. Monopolies.... What fantasy world are you in?


Only under political capitalism does this tendency toward monopoly and regulation-created cartels appear
Regulation destroyed centralization to an extent not created it, rail railroads?Standard oil? :laugh:


Marx's assessment of the 'internal contradictions' of laissez-faire capitalism. In fact, what he describes is hampered capitalism, so I can hardly see how it even applies to market economies or
Re-read Marx please, it appears you haven't. He talked about Capitalism contradictions and even the contradictions of regulated capitalism(Even touched upon it in the freaking Manifesto Bourgeois Socialism?) Your not even touching why he isnt against Capitalism in the first place, the exploitation of the Proletarian by the Capitalist class.


that the 'capitalist' class is some exploitative entity. It is rather all free, propertied citizens - which is to say, everyone who is not a criminal.
Surplus Value....

Qayin
15th May 2010, 07:08
http://i44.tinypic.com/m7aqn7.jpg

IcarusAngel
15th May 2010, 07:20
I think we've found a girlfriend for hayenmill. If hayenmill and LadyJacobian found love in their lives, maybe they wouldn't have such a hatred of people or "the mob" as Libertarians call public democracy.

LadyJacobian, hayenmill is an eligible bachelor and likes video games (particularly Pokemon), steampunk culture, or something, and he also threatens to kill people who question private property, the basis of his revolution. Send him a message and ask him out. According to him, all science, literature, computer science, art, etc. is the result of the private property of men's minds.

Second, as for the French Revolution, keep in mind that not all French were absolutist when it came to property rights:


To place the responsibility for the ills of society on the institution of private property, without actually calling for its abolition, was fairly common in the 18th century. Numerous ancient thinkers -- Greek, Roman, Medieval -- had agreed that private property was somehow responsible for man's plight. The idea that law was nothing more than a device to protect the accumulation of the rich and to rationalize the exploitation of the poor had ancient roots. The philosophes of the Enlightenment were familiar with all of these arguments, trained as they were in the classics. Furthermore, the conviction that simplicity in possessions and life-style was conducive to virtue was held by almost all enlightened thinkers. Great wealth was an obstacle to virtue. The Classical and Christian roots of this belief should be obvious for how could a true Christian remain true to God, for instance, if he was mired in the materialism of increased accumulation?...


In Robespierre's utopian vision, the individual has the duty "to detest bad faith and despotism, to punish tyrants and traitors, to assist the unfortunate and respect the weak, to defend the oppressed, to do all the good one can to one's neighbor, and to behave with justice towards all men." Robespierre was a disciple of Rousseau (http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/r/rousseau.htm)--both considered the general will an absolute necessity. For Robespierre, the realization of the general will would make the Republic of Virtue a reality. Its denial would mean a return to despotism. Robespierre knew that a REPUBLIC OF VIRTUE (http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/virtue.html) could not become a reality unless the threats of foreign and civil war were removed. To preserve the Republic, Robespierre and the CPS instituted the Reign of Terror. Counter-revolutionaries, the Girondins, priests, nobles, and aristocrats immediately fell under suspicion. Danton (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/151217/Georges-Danton) (1759-1794), a revolutionary who sought peace with Europe, was executed.Source 1 (http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/lecture13a.html) Source 2 (http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/lecture19a.html)

And of course there is this classic:

http://assets.cambridge.org/97805214/24455/cover/9780521424455.jpg

Rousseau was much more complex than merely the outcome of Robespierre. He advocated a similar division of government in his epistle dedicatory to the republic of Geneva, noting that a swift reform might lead to more tyranny than ancient customs. At times he advocated anarchy or a return to pure democracy. I'm unfamiliar with his relations to the Jacobians.

Dimentio
15th May 2010, 09:42
Long live glorious comrade Maximilien de Robespierre!
http://cla.calpoly.edu/%7Elcall/111/Robespierre.jpg

On a serious note though. All goals which Robespierre fought for have more or less been accomplished in western nations today. Most western nations are de-facto republics, most western nations are secular, most western nations are liberal and most western nations have a basic standard of living enshrined by practice (though often through very denigrating means).

Exactly what could Robespierre give us today, except some sort of radical kitsch which could enrage some loony priest out in some isolated countryside town. I mean, this feels a lot like when Alexander Bard calls himself a radical liberal and basically espouses Swedish consensus liberalism but with words which are somewhat radical and provocative.

IcarusAngel
15th May 2010, 10:33
^^Second best post in this thread (mine being the first, it's best to challenge the revisionist history of the Libertarians).

Keep in mind that the "good things" about our society all come from that weird mix of public input on government and government action that the free-marketeers tell us is so bad. The Western nations built themselves up by using protectionism, government funded science, Universities, etc., not by capitalism. We succeeded by violating the rules of capitalism.

Of course, some bad things as well are attributable to the success of the first world, such as third world exploitation.

What this shows is not really that government is necessary (though I suppose you could make the case), but that it's public cooperation, empathy, debate, education, etc. that gets things done, not the market.

Libertarians always want to take us backwards in history. I argued with one that said we should return to the nineteenth century standard of living.

(Note: when I said Rousseau being an outcome of Robespierre I meant that Rousseau's ideas did not directly lead to his society.)

Havet
15th May 2010, 12:25
I think we've found a girlfriend for hayenmill. If hayenmill and LadyJacobian found love in their lives, maybe they wouldn't have such a hatred of people or "the mob" as Libertarians call public democracy.

I don't have hatred for people, nor do I call them "the mob" anymore.


LadyJacobian, hayenmill is an eligible bachelor and likes video games (particularly Pokemon), steampunk culture, or something, and he also threatens to kill people who question private property, the basis of his revolution. Send him a message and ask him out. According to him, all science, literature, computer science, art, etc. is the result of the private property of men's minds.

Damn right! Pokemon FTW!!!

But i NEVER threatened to kill people who question private property. Idiot.

And i NEVER said that ALL science, literature, computer science and art is the result of private property. Stop making lies.

Keep your filthy mouth to yourself

Dimentio
15th May 2010, 13:19
I think IcarusAngel could sometimes be pretty plump.

Jazzratt
15th May 2010, 13:52
Member was a third positionist and was banned for the same on libcom. Fuck that.