Castro

[The Ben G]

What do you think about him?

[brigadista]

dont like vinnie jones

[Spawn of Stalin]

His Marxism-Leninism (if you can call it that) is highly questionable, but as an anti-imperialist and a figure for social and economic justice he's pretty much awesome.

[The Ben G]

dont like vinnie jones

Vinnie Jones FTW.

[The Ben G]

He's pretty cool. His Economic and Social reforms as well as his anti Imperialist stance really ranks him high. Though, I have to deduct some for some of his questionable doctor qualifications and some of his human rights violations.

[mosfeld]

The Cuban revolution was a genuinely progressive national liberation movement which, sadly, under the leadership of Castro, succumbed to Soviet social-imperialism. I don't like Castro because of his revisionist political views and for being an opportunist in general. I, as everyone on this board undoubtedly, support Cuba against imperialism, though.

[Comrade B]

Castro's actions against homosexuals are unforgivable, however what he has done for the majority of Cuba is astounding

[Chimurenga.]

He's pretty cool. His Economic and Social reforms as well as his anti Imperialist stance really ranks him high. Though, I have to deduct some for some of his questionable doctor qualifications and some of his human rights violations.

:laugh:




Castro's actions against homosexuals are unforgivable, however what he has done for the majority of Cuba is astounding

Things are much different now.

[chebol]

The Ben G: What "questionable doctor qualifications"? - He is a lawyer, and lawyers in Cuba are accorded the honorific "Doctor". End of story. As for "human rights violations", you're 'avin' a larf, innit?

Comrade B: "Castro's actions against homosexuals are unforgivable" - Do you even know what you are talking about?

mosfeld: Let me rewrite and fix that rubbish sentence of yours. "The Cuban revolution is a genuinely progressive national liberation movement which, under the leadership of Castro, managed to survive the suffocating effects of US imperialist aggression and Soviet social-imperialism."

[Comrade B]

Fidel Castro originally accused homosexuality of being caused by western influence. He imprisoned homosexuals as counter-revolutionaries. Recently he apologized for that... but you can't really expect people to accept your apology as a significant counterweight for the years you wasted in prison.

[mosfeld]

mosfeld: Let me rewrite and fix that rubbish sentence of yours. "The Cuban revolution is a genuinely progressive national liberation movement which, under the leadership of Castro, managed to survive the suffocating effects of US imperialist aggression and Soviet social-imperialism."

Sure, Cuba managed to "survive the suffocation effects of U.S imperialist aggression" after the Cuban revolution, but that doesn't change the fact that Cuba simply succumbed to and became a stooge of another imperialist power in its place.

[Uppercut]

He did more good than bad. Yes, he was homophobic for a time, but recently, his daughter is pushing for more LGBT rights and same-sex marriage.
I don't believe there are that many human rights issues in Cuba, as from what I can tell, it is definately not the police state that the Western Media claims. If I was using my home computer, I could post a link to a rally held in Cuba some time back against the Ladies in White. The people shut them up themselves. They don't want them or need them. Taking the issues into their own hands is what proletarian dictatorship is all about, and although Cuba is still facing economic hardship, they're still going strong.
I don't consider Castro to be perfect, but he definately has heart and shows strong solidarity for the under-privileged (aiding Angolan independence, supporting Nelson Mandella, staying in a Harlem Hotel on one of his visits to America, etc.).

[mosfeld]

I could post a link to a rally held in Cuba some time back against the Ladies in White. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdiAx-HtLM0 Here it is. The "Ladies in White" are reactionary pro-imperialists, and its heartening to see Cubans rally against them.

edit:


(aiding Angolan independence)
Cuba's further involvement in the Angolan civil war was simply doing the Soviet Union's dirty imperialist work, though.

[scarletghoul]

Fidel Castro is awesome. I have huge amounts of respect for him, as do many millions of people around the world.

Yeah its true he made Cuba a bit too reliant on the Soviet Union, but I wouldn't say Cuba was a Soviet client state. It managed to stay socialist while the likes of Mongolia, Poland, Hungary, etc, all turned capitalist along with the USSR. The initial Cuban revolution was also not Soviet-aided, it was completely homegrown and stayed somewhat independant with its own Cuban character while other countries adopted the character of the USSR. Some Maoists reject Cuba because it fell into the Soviet camp and not the Chinese. Sure, this was a bad thing with some bad consequences economically, however Cuba is still a pretty good example of a revolutionary workers' state, more so than the soviet union and its sattelites. Even back in the days of the sinosoviet split, quite a few self-identified Maoists upheld Cuba as a great revolutionary state.

Anyway yeah he's cool

[Chimurenga.]

Fidel Castro originally accused homosexuality of being caused by western influence. He imprisoned homosexuals as counter-revolutionaries. Recently he apologized for that... but you can't really expect people to accept your apology as a significant counterweight for the years you wasted in prison.

So you're completely unaware of the installment of genital reassignment surgery in their health care? Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they the first country with universal health care to do that?

[Comrade B]

I am aware that cuba's health care covers sex changes, however that cannot really make up for the years people spent demonized in prison. Fidel is more good than bad, but it is pretty damn hard to make up for a bad like that.

[Ocean Seal]

He is a man with his mistakes, but the sheer amount of work that he has put into fighting imperialism is outstanding. So he might not be ideal, but he gets the job done.

[Red Rebel]

Love him, in a completely no homo way which leads to my next point:


Castro's actions against homosexuals are unforgivable, however what he has done for the majority of Cuba is astounding


During the early days of the Revolution "gays" were put in UMAP camps (i.e. labor camps) because they were deemed not able to serve in the army. This was not punishment; however, just an alternative means for them to serve the Cuban people, outside the army. Won't go into contemporary Cuba because you aknowledged that though.

[Ismail]

Lame ex-Soviet puppet and revisionist who led a state-capitalist economy. The homosexuality debate is going at it the wrong way.

I'm more concerned about the fact that he turned Cuba into a Soviet neo-colony, upheld Soviet revisionist policies internationally, sent troops into Angola to the benefit of Soviet social-imperialism, and invaded Somalia when the Soviets decided that Ethiopia was a more prosperous ally.

Not to mention this:
"I can't say that Gorbachev played a conscious part in the destruction of the Soviet Union, because I have no doubt that Gorbachev's aim was to struggle to perfect socialism."
(Fidel Castro in: 'Guardian', 30 May 1992; p. 25).

He was domestically progressive (not hard to pull off), but not much else.

[Barry Lyndon]

Lame ex-Soviet puppet and revisionist who led a state-capitalist economy. The homosexuality debate is going at it the wrong way.

I'm more concerned about the fact that he turned Cuba into a Soviet neo-colony, upheld Soviet revisionist policies internationally, sent troops into Angola to the benefit of Soviet social-imperialism, and invaded Somalia when the Soviets decided that Ethiopia was a more prosperous ally.

Not to mention this:
"I can't say that Gorbachev played a conscious part in the destruction of the Soviet Union, because I have no doubt that Gorbachev's aim was to struggle to perfect socialism."
(Fidel Castro in: 'Guardian', 30 May 1992; p. 25).

He was domestically progressive (not hard to pull off), but not much else.

Oh, shut up, Hoxha fetishist.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Lame ex-Soviet puppet and revisionist who led a state-capitalist economy. The homosexuality debate is going at it the wrong way.

I'm more concerned about the fact that he turned Cuba into a Soviet neo-colony, upheld Soviet revisionist policies internationally, sent troops into Angola to the benefit of Soviet social-imperialism, and invaded Somalia when the Soviets decided that Ethiopia was a more prosperous ally.

Not to mention this:
"I can't say that Gorbachev played a conscious part in the destruction of the Soviet Union, because I have no doubt that Gorbachev's aim was to struggle to perfect socialism."
(Fidel Castro in: 'Guardian', 30 May 1992; p. 25).

He was domestically progressive (not hard to pull off), but not much else.

Yeah, you're absolutely right! None of this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=3338) can outweigh the, what, 4 points you made? Yeah, none of this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=3338) could ever outweigh your advanced knowledge of Cuba. :thumbup1: (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=3338)

[Comrade B]

Love him, in a completely no homo way which leads to my next point:
Going to start with, I was hanging out with a few gay friends a while ago and they were talking about how much the whole "no homo" thing pisses them off. You should probably avoid it.


During the early days of the Revolution "gays"
Why is that in quotes?


were put in UMAP camps (i.e. labor camps) because they were deemed not able to serve in the army. This was not punishment; however, just an alternative means for them to serve the Cuban people, outside the army. Won't go into contemporary Cuba because you aknowledged that though.
And everyone else who was not in the military was not placed in a labor camp. Why the gays and not anyone else?

Also, a Castro quote:
“in the country, there are no homosexuals”

Found the quote on a citation on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Cuba#cite_ref-25) :
Castro's admiring description of rural life in Cuba ("in the country, there are no homosexuals"[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Cuba#cite_note-Tatchell-13)) reflected the idea of homosexuality as bourgeois decadence, and he denounced "maricones" (faggots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28slang%29)) as "agents of imperialism".[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Cuba#cite_note-25) Castro explained his reasoning in a 1965 interview:

[scarletghoul]

Actually many other groups of people went into camps to help out because they couldn't or didn't join the military. (of course, the ban on gays in the military is itself unjustified)

But yeah the homophobic stuff is obviously terrible, however I dont know if Castro personally should be despised for it as its an extremely common view in oppressed countries and people, plus the good he's done far outweighs all that. Honestly, it's tiny in comparison to the work done in fighting imperialism, helping to liberate parts of africa, latin america, improving life for the vast majority of cubans, and serving as a beacon of socialist hope for the world.

[Robocommie]

I think it's worth making a contrast to see how gays were treated in other places at that time as well. I mean, didn't it used to be fairly common to put gays in insane asylums at one time? I wouldn't say this justifies what happened in Cuba but I would say it has to be put into a broader context to appreciate the full significance.

[Qayin]

Meh

[Foldered]

I think it's worth making a contrast to see how gays were treated in other places at that time as well. I mean, didn't it used to be fairly common to put gays in insane asylums at one time? I wouldn't say this justifies what happened in Cuba but I would say it has to be put into a broader context to appreciate the full significance.
Yes, homosexuality was considered to be a (treatable) mental illness/psychological disorder in many countries.

[Ismail]

Oh, shut up, Hoxha fetishist.I guess my analysis of Cuba has been one-upped by a Brezhnevite and Trot tankie who simply retorts that I have a "fetish" for Hoxha.

Funny how you're incapable of answering my arguments, troll.

Fact is, only a genuinely proletarian revolution can bring socialism to Cuba.


Yeah, you're absolutely right! None of this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=3338) can outweigh the, what, 4 points you made? Yeah, none of this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=3338) could ever outweigh your advanced knowledge of Cuba. :thumbup1: (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=3338)It is up to Brezhnevites to talk about living standards and such. That non-Marxist analysis and defense of Cuba is entirely their prerogative. Marxists, however, analyze the relations to the means of production and draw conclusions from that. Cuba is thus a capitalist state.

This does not mean Castro was not objectively progressive after the Soviet Union fell apart, but there should be no illusions about his or Cuba's "socialism" in the same way as there should be no illusions about the "socialism" of Chávez and the Venezuelan State.

[ComradeRed22'91]

succumbed to Soviet social-imperialism

Wow...a tiny carribean country taking support from one of the world's leading superpowers while the other leading superpower, who would leave them to rot and starve in hell (as they were for decades) is succumbing to 'social-imperialism.' :rolleyes:


:hammersickle::hammersickle: :hammersickle::hammersickle:

[Agnapostate]

His regime is authoritarian, as all state political administrations tend to be. But he's not subverting some grand tradition of democracy in Cuba, which was characterized by U.S. client governments before the Revolution. What his detractors generally find objectionable is his commitment to socialism, not his authoritarianism, since they ignore U.S. governmental support of far worse dictators. Cuba has been characterized by gains in literacy, living standards, and social mobility that simply would not have been possible in pre-Castro times.

[Comrade B]

But yeah the homophobic stuff is obviously terrible, however I dont know if Castro personally should be despised for it as its an extremely common view in oppressed countries and people, plus the good he's done far outweighs all that. Honestly, it's tiny in comparison to the work done in fighting imperialism, helping to liberate parts of africa, latin america, improving life for the vast majority of cubans, and serving as a beacon of socialist hope for the world.
I can agree with this, I think it is important though that we recognize the Castro's failings if we are going to try to defend him.

[GreenCommunism]

i believe that technological,material and social and educational advances do affect the perception of people concerning certain issue and homosexuality is one.


Sexual relations between same-sex consenting adults 16 and over have been legal in Cuba since 1979, although same-sex relationships are not presently recognised by the state. Despite elements of homophobia in Cuba's history, Havana now has a lively and vibrant gay scene.[1]
Public antipathy towards LGBT people is high, reflecting regional norms. This has eased somewhat since the 1990s. Educational campaigns on LGBT issues are currently implemented by the National Center for Sex Education, headed by Mariela Castro.
Cuba is a country where citizens can have sex reassignment surgery for free


On May 22, 1967, the Supreme Court of the United States upheld the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, which among other things banned homosexuals, as constitutional. This ban remained in effect until 1991 [10].
In 1972, a Tacoma, Washington teacher (Gaylord) of twelve years with a perfect record was terminated after a former high school student outed him to the vice-principal. The Washington Supreme Court found that homosexuality was immoral and impaired Gaylord's efficiency as a teacher. The court supported its conclusion in various ways, including: 1. the definition of homosexuality in the New Catholic Encyclopedia; 2. the criminal nature of homosexual conduct; and 3. an "immoral" person could not be trusted to instruct students as his presence would be inherently disruptive. On October 3, 1977, the United States Supreme Court denied certiorari, although Justices Brennan and Marshall would have granted cert. This was the first homosexual discrimination decision to be aired on national network news. In fact, it was simultaneously aired on all three national evening news networks totaling approximately 60 million viewers


In 1958, the United States Supreme Court ruled that the gay publication ONE, Inc., was not obscene and thus protected by the First Amendment. The California Supreme Court extended similar protection to Kenneth Angers homoerotic film, Fireworks and Illinois became the first state to legalize homosexuality between consenting adults in private.

thus homosexuality was legal in certain states in america. but in others.

On June 26, 2003, the United States Supreme Court ruled in Lawrence v. Texas that laws against sodomy or anal sex cannot be directed at homosexuals alone, and furthermore, that intimate consensual sexual conduct is part of the liberty protected by substantive due process under the Fourteenth Amendment. The majority opinion, written by Justice Anthony Kennedy, explicitly overruled Bowers v. Hardwick

in others it was much later than cuba. this also happened in a country where the population is pretty homophobic. so it should be acknowledged that legalizing homosexuality in the usa would have been much easier than in cuba yet cuba completly legalized it sooner than the usa, while it partially didn't.

[RedRise]

Sorry, but I have to ask why we're arguing over Castro's views on homosexuality rather than politics, revolutionary stuff, etc.
I certainly won't say that Castro hasn't made mistakes (sticking around in power far too long and then handing it over to his little brother are two of them) but he has done a lot of good, especially when you think about what Cuba might have been like without the revolution and without Castro's leadership. As a communist country, one has to say that Cuba's done pretty well all things considered. I think they would have faired even better had it not been for the American trade embargo and blah blah blah. Though it could also be said that they did rely too much on Soviet Russia.

[here for the revolution]

Emancipation for homosexuals is surely revolutionary `stuff`?

My view is that he ensured Cuba was a sovereign state, and not America's playground under another Batista today. For that alone he deserves respect.

[Ocean Seal]

Yeah, you're absolutely right! None of this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=3338) can outweigh the, what, 4 points you made? Yeah, none of this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=3338) could ever outweigh your advanced knowledge of Cuba. :thumbup1: (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=3338)
Wow those are some excellent points, it will make a good argument against the anti-Cuban Capitalists.