N Korea claims to have achieved fusion

[Broletariat]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8676678.stm

What does this mean for the world today if it's true?

[The Vegan Marxist]

If true, then it'll mean newer, cleaner energy would have been formed, in which means that it'll become another important profitable commodity that will probably form another world war over.

[Proletarian Ultra]

Hoorah!

On the importance of North Korea, and its valiant defiance of American imperialism, here is Comrade Harpal Brar of CPGB-ML interviewed by some German Stalinists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tck5ZK_Ai9A

That's right, liberals. A beacon of hope and freedom.

EDIT: Oh wait. I assumed they meant a bomb. This claim is about energy. As usual, the game is "those Norks sure are crazy."


The statement, carried by North Korea's official state media, said the country's scientists had succeeded in carrying out nuclear fusion.
Laboratory demonstrations of the process, known to release large amounts of energy, are nothing new.
But the North Koreans appear to be claiming to have gone much further, by building what they describe as a "unique thermo-nuclear reaction device".


So...NoKo reaches a well-understood stage of research, brags about it on TV. BBC at the ready to assume they're in fact claiming to have invented a unicorn-rainbow bubble generation time-vortex machine - because those Norks so fucked up and wacky that's exactly the kind of thing they would do; and of course an entirely irrelevant aside about KJI's kray-zee personality cult.

[DDR]

It that's true, the DPRC have achieved a mile stone in human History.

[pranabjyoti]

If the fusion scientists all over the world approves the fact, then they certainly have achieved a milestone.

[GreenCommunism]

it's either propaganda, either by north korea to their citizens to keep their hopes up, or from bbc who want to ridicule north korea. if north korea really believe they did it then they have lost all the respect i had for them.

[Q]

You people are so gullible. It's cute.

Do you have any idea what kind of resources it would take to research, develop and build fusion reactors?

[The Vegan Marxist]

it's either propaganda, either by north korea to their citizens to keep their hopes up, or from bbc who want to ridicule north korea. if north korea really believe they did it then they have lost all the respect i had for them.

confused? :confused:

[Proletarian Ultra]

You people are so gullible. It's cute.

Do you have any idea what kind of resources it would take to research, develop and build fusion reactors?

A variety of fusion devices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion#Production_methods) are relatively easy and cheap to build. They are not at all efficient for energy generation - but BBC's assumption aside, it's not clear to me that's actually being claimed.

[scarletghoul]

Would be pretty cool if it was true, though it is likely to be misinformation by the BBC as the general tone of their article suggests.

Still I think that if such a device was to be invented, it would probably be in a socialist state. Its obviously not beneficial to large sections of the capitalist class so capitalists would not support the development of it

[Tablo]

I would be quite happy if this is true. I kinda doubt it though... at least they couldn't have made it very efficient.

If they did truly achieve fusion then it would be great for them economically to sell the technology to other nations. Maybe then they could spend some cash on development instead of the military, lol.

[Invincible Summer]

I don't want to sound condescending/Eurocentric, but maybe the DPRK scientists mistook what they did for fusion? :lol:

[GreenCommunism]

some experiments with fusion was done and were sometime sucessful but never able to make it work on a large scale. perhaps north korean scientist didn't know of these previous experiment and thought they did a breakthrough?


confused?

well i support north korea alot since i think even stalinist or maoist are fooled by propaganda which is huge, but there are some aspect of north korea that i found idiotic, such as someone complaining that the tourist guide wouldnt let them take pictures of a statue under a certain angle, since i guess the statues looks better from another angle.

[Small Geezer]

So Kim Jong-Il has started a Dizzy Gillespie-inspired progressive funk band?

[Salyut]

You people are so gullible. It's cute.

Do you have any idea what kind of resources it would take to research, develop and build fusion reactors?

Just gonna echo Q here. If they've done anything it would be a) they built a IEC fusor for a neutron source, or b) they bought a tokamak from the Russians.

Not really anything to get excited over.

[Ocean Seal]

It is very unlikely for any nation to have developed nuclear (cold) fusion at this point, perhaps they have been able to accomplish hot fusion which requires more energy than it produces. Hot fusion is inefficient just like capitalism :laugh:.

[Q]

It is very unlikely for any nation to have developed nuclear (cold) fusion at this point, perhaps they have been able to accomplish hot fusion which requires more energy than it produces. Hot fusion is inefficient just like capitalism :laugh:.

Sorry, but this is ignorant. Hot fusion requires power to have a sustained fusion process (this as opposed to fission, which is self-sustaining and therefore inherently dangerous). Currently the experimental reactors are too small to have a fusion process big enough to generate more energy then putting in. However, this is mostly an issue of refining the process and scale, as far as I'm aware.

[A.R.Amistad]

You people are so gullible. It's cute.

Do you have any idea what kind of resources it would take to research, develop and build fusion reactors?

Well said. It seems like every Tankie on Revleft is ready to jump to support the myths perpetuated by this and that nation's state-controlled media that seeks to uplift certain nations with grandiose and mythical tales of breakthroughs in science when theyre still struggling to feed the nation for the next year. Really, people, use common sense.

[Chimurenga.]

For anyone still interested... the Korean Central News Agency of the DPRK confirmed this:

http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm

[son of man]

That sounds pretty sweet - cold fusion and cheap power for DPRK.

Hey guys - I've got some magic beans for sale. Anyone interested?

[TheSultan]

I think it's for the better; more countries using nuclear energy means we'll find out more through experience and as a whole we can advance our research and knowledge of alternative fuel sources. Although this is bound to cause even further tension and distrust between North Korea and the US and its allies etc.

[Yazman]

I don't understand where all the talk of "cold fusion" in this thread comes from, especially given that it isn't even MENTIONED in the article, or in any of the releases from NK. Nuclear fusion does not need to be "cold fusion" in order to generate energy. I don't understand why you assume that.

[DenisDenis]

Would be pretty cool if it was true, though it is likely to be misinformation by the BBC as the general tone of their article suggests.

Still I think that if such a device was to be invented, it would probably be in a socialist state. Its obviously not beneficial to large sections of the capitalist class so capitalists would not support the development of it

Aren't they building a fusion reactor in france?
Don't really know that much about all this stuff,
would be cool if NK beat Europe in building one first :p

[comrade_cyanide444]

Fusion isn't a new concept. It's just that a fusion reaction on a scale massive enough to make energy at controllable temperatures is nearly impossible. Even state of the art reactors struggle to create sustainable controlled fusion reactions. It's most likely that DPRK just took something old and boasted it off as something new.

[Ocean Seal]

Sorry, but this is ignorant. Hot fusion requires power to have a sustained fusion process (this as opposed to fission, which is self-sustaining and therefore inherently dangerous). Currently the experimental reactors are too small to have a fusion process big enough to generate more energy then putting in. However, this is mostly an issue of refining the process and scale, as far as I'm aware.

Hate to disagree, and perhaps I am wrong but if we did make the hot fusion reactors larger then we would need more energy to operate them as the temperatures would have to be at least 3,000,000 kelvin and the output would not be able to exceed the input unless we would be talking about fusion reactors on a massive massive scale.
There is of course the idea that we could make fusion operate using high the uncontrolled fusion like what one would find in an hydrogen bomb. But I don't think anyone knows how to use this to have a desirable effect and I'm not even sure that this is possible.

[MarxSchmarx]

Let's start a betting pool. How many of you who think this is "for real" are willing to bet anything beyond a trivial sum (say 100 USD) that this is beyond some small scale experiment that replicates results already reported somewhere else, and actually is a crucial, novel step towards fusion generated power? If you are right, everyone who believes otherwise will owe you their fraction of that amount. If you are wrong, you owe the pool that amount of money.

Any takers? I didn't think so....

[mikelepore]

Hate to disagree, and perhaps I am wrong but if we did make the hot fusion reactors larger then we would need more energy to operate them as the temperatures would have to be at least 3,000,000 kelvin and the output would not be able to exceed the input unless we would be talking about fusion reactors on a massive massive scale.
There is of course the idea that we could make fusion operate using high the uncontrolled fusion like what one would find in an hydrogen bomb. But I don't think anyone knows how to use this to have a desirable effect and I'm not even sure that this is possible.

I think it's even more, closer to 10 or 12 million kelvin, to get two nuclei close enough to fuse. They have to get within about 10^-14 meter of each other, not easily achieved for two like charges that have an electrical repulsion. The technical problem is to have any machine that has a little piece of the sun inside it, and still the machine itself doesn't get vaporized or even malfunction. When they do figure it out, the solution will probably involve a magnetic containment, or else to use a laser to achieve the high temperature only in a microscopic volume.

[NGNM85]

Aren't they building a fusion reactor in france?
Don't really know that much about all this stuff,
would be cool if NK beat Europe in building one first :p

The ITER reactor, set to be constructed in 2011. If it could be made to work, it would be a triumph for the human race supplying an almost incalcuable amount of clean energy. Although I read a depressing article in Scientif American that suggested Tritium is so rare there isn't enough of it to make worldwide adoption of fusion power feasible even if it could be made to work. I know tritium is rare but I don't know if this is necessarily true, or if perhaps something could be substituted.(?) However, I garuntee North Korea is nowhere close.

[Q]

The ITER reactor, set to be constructed in 2011. If it could be made to work, it would be a triumph for the human race supplying an almost incalcuable amount of clean energy.

ITER (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER) is only an experimental reactor though. It is designed to produce 500 MW of thermal energy (while only 50 MW is required as input to keep the fusion process ongoing). This sounds promising, but the reactor is designed to only sustain such a reaction for 500 to 3000 seconds. For practical energy production we're looking to a generation after ITER.


Although I read a depressing article in Scientif American that suggested Tritium is so rare there isn't enough of it to make worldwide adoption of fusion power feasible even if it could be made to work. I know tritium is rare but I don't know if this is necessarily true, or if perhaps something could be substituted.(?)
Yes. The most ideal fusion reaction would be helium-3 fusing with itself (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3#Fusion_reactions). This produces clean helium and hydrogen and no radio-active waste. While He3 is rare on Earth because our magnetosphere deflects the solarwind, the moon has enough to power us for millenia (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/helium3_000630.html).

[NGNM85]

ITER is only an experimental reactor though. It is designed to produce 500 MW of thermal energy (while only 50 MW is required as input to keep the fusion process ongoing). This sounds promising, but the reactor is designed to only sustain such a reaction for 500 to 3000 seconds. For practical energy production we're looking to a generation after ITER.

Granted, but if it's successful it would be a substantial step in that direction.



Yes. The most ideal fusion reaction would be helium-3 fusing with itself. This produces clean helium and hydrogen and no radio-active waste. While He3 is rare on Earth because our magnetosphere deflects the solarwind, the moon has enough to power us for milennia.

Cool. Thanks for clearing that up.:D

[AK]

For anyone still interested... the Korean Central News Agency of the DPRK confirmed this:

http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm
Ah, the Korea Central News Agency; what a great neutral source.

[Ovi]

Although I read a depressing article in Scientif American that suggested Tritium is so rare there isn't enough of it to make worldwide adoption of fusion power feasible even if it could be made to work. I know tritium is rare but I don't know if this is necessarily true, or if perhaps something could be substituted.(?)
Tritium having a half life of 12 years is practically inexistent on Earth. It's produce instead out of lithium by bombarding it with the neutrons generated out of the D+T reaction. That's why almost all fusion research is focused on tritium.