CWI: the struggle must continue and intesify! [Archive]

Lyev

12th May 2010, 20:08

Greece
The struggle must continue and intensify!

www.socialistworld (http://www.%3Cb%3Esocialistworld%3C/b%3E).net, 06/05/2010
website of the committee for a workers' international, CWI
Refuse to pay the debt, nationalize the banks!

Press Statement from Xekinima (http://www.xekinima.org/) (CWI in Greece)
http://www.socialistworld.net/img/20100506Grafik1548946361872649302.jpg
Yesterday, workers across Greece took part in a huge general strike in angry opposition to a new ‘austerity cuts package’. The strike hit all public and private sectors and closed down airports, docks and stopped all public transport. In Athens over 200,000, possibly 300,000, marched in the biggest ever trade union protest.

The planned vicious cuts, estimated at 30bn euros, which includes wage freezes and cuts, pension cuts and VAT hikes, will be carried out by the "socialist" PASOK, government in return for a huge 110bn euro bailout from the EU, IMF and European Central Bank to try to deal with Greece’s huge national debt.

During huge demonstrations in Athens yesterday, a branch of the Marfin bank in central Athens was firebombed, killing three bank workers. Socialists everywhere will condemn these deaths of innocent workers – forced by their bosses to work during yesterday’s strike. Supporters of Xekinima (http://www.xekinima.org/) (the CWI in Greece) tried to help the trapped bank workers and have appeared on Greek television explaining that demonstrators attempted to save the workers’ lives.

Below, we publish a slightly edited version of a press statement issued today by Xekinima (the CWI in Greece), which comments on the bank workers’ tragic deaths, the magnificent strike action and also on the next steps that need to be taken by the Greek workers’ movement.

Socialistworld.net

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2010-05-07Grafik6187282651064919029.jpg
Yesterday’s magnificent mobilization in Athens and others cities of Greece was unprecedented. Athens “sunk” (as the demonstrators commented to one another) under the weight of hundreds of thousands of protesters. This was the biggest trade union mobilization since the fall of the military junta in 1974. The general strike and mass demonstration was taken to send a message of the most determined resistance against the cuts package measures agreed by the Greek government, IMF and the EU.

More and more workers understand that these measures have nothing to do with the “interest of the Greek people” as the government claims and that they are instead aimed at forcing Greek workers to pay the debts of the government to the Greek and foreign bankers. These debts were created by a conscious policy of continuous transfers from the state budget (through tax relieves and other means) to the capitalists to maximize their profits and to help the Greek bosses exploit cheap labour in the Balkans over the last two decades!

Yesterday’s magnificent response of the working class must represent the beginning of new great struggles. The overturning of the plans of the government, the IMF and the EU is possible!

Unfortunately, however, yesterday’s historic day has been blackened by the tragic death of the three workers in Marfin bank. We express our huge sorrow and, at the same time, immense anger, over the death of the three bank workers.

Of course, overall responsibility for an upsurge in street conflict lies, to start with, with the "socialist" PASOK government because the policies that it applies lead society into complete instability and, as a result, violence is entirely inevitable. Responsibility equally lies with the owners of the MARFIN bank who, as is becoming clear, forced their workers to work on the day of a general strike, under conditions of great danger as the bank was on the way of the demonstration and clashes with the police were expected. At the same time, it seems that there was not proper fire safety or any emergency exits in the bank building.

These facts, however, do not acquit the supposedly “anti-statists” anarchist groups from their criminal responsibilities. We condemn, in the most decisive manner, the criminal irresponsibility of the so-called “anti-statists”, anarchist groups. This event would have happened sooner or later – they would have caused the loss of workers’ lives due to their immeasurable irresponsibility. It is not the first time that these groups have thrown petrol bombs into areas where there are workers who have had to run for their lives! Some of these groups explain their activities by reference to anarchist ideology. Some others are simply secret police agents who consciously act as provocateurs – this has been proven by plenty of photographic evidence (but this does not seem to cause any rethinking of their actions in the minds of these anarchist groups!).

Service to the capitalist state
The actions of these groups provide the best service to the capitalist state, which they claim they want to destroy! The state exploit the actions of these groups, which provoke disgust and anger from the working class, to justify state reppression. The methods of these highly irresponsible groups diverts the attention of the working class movement from how to intensify class struggle to mainly discussing their criminal activities! Finally, these groups are characterised by immense arrogance; they speak in the name of ‘revolution’, thus confusing immense convulsions of society and the masses with their individual personal mad “rebellions”.

Therefore the first task to which the organised workers’ movement and particularly the mass parties of the Left should respond to, is the defence of the rallies and mass actions of the working class, by all means, from these “anti-state” groups. The KKE (communist party), SYRIZA (left coalition) and the far left groups have a responsibility to organize united rallies including common stewarding and protection. But yesterday’s actions by the parties of the Left - organising separate marches – is absolute irresponsibility In relation to the interests of the workers’ movement.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2010-05-07Grafik9087193662415561121.jpg
The central question at this moment for the working class is how should the struggle should develop?

Greek workers and pensioners know that the meassures of the government means a reduction in the living standards of the huge majority of people, by 20% to 30%. There is no doubt that workers are willing to fight against these measures. It is worth losing 5, 10, 15 days’ wage to counter these cutbacks and workers are willing to do it. But a precondition for this is that the leadership of the trade union movement and the parties of the left call for such a decisive course of action.

In our opinion, the proposals that ought to be made by the left parties and the organised working class today are:

* The immediate calling of a 48 hour general strike, with repeated general strikes, if necessary, combined with strike action by different sections of the working class. This needs to be combined with the building of commitees of action democratically elected on a rank and file basis.

* For workplace occupations, in, for example, the mass media, the docks, bus and train depots etc, run through democratically-taken decisions by workers at general meetings. These occupations should be combined with long occupations of colleges and blockades of national roads by the small farmers’ movement.

* For unified mass rallies of the left parties, which should be stewarded and protected from provocative anarchist actions and provocateurs.

* The central political demand must be that those who caused the crisis must pay it. This means refusing to pay the debt owed to the bankers, in Greece and abroad, and for the nationalization of the banking system, under workers’ control and management, as an immediate first step.

* This struggle must aim to co-ordinate with the struggles of the workers of the rest of Europe, who today look upon the Greek movement with hope and expectations. Starting with the workers of southern Europe (Portugal, Spain, etc) and Ireland, who are facing the same attacks, we must fight together to overturn the policies of the EU and the IMF, against a capitalist Europe and for a workers’ Europe, a United Socialist Confederation of Europe.

For the left to be consistent with its principles and declarations, it has to openly and clearly state that the capitalist system is inhuman and barbaric. And that the only way for the workers to live a better life is to fight for the nationalization of all major companies, under workers’ control and management, as the only way to have real productive investement to end unemployment and poverty and to plan the economy for the needs of society, as a whole.

The struggle for the overthrow of the dictatorship of the market, the ending the barbarity of capitalism, and the struggle for an alternative socialist society, based on workers’ democracy (not the caricature of Stalinism), must become the banner of the left parties. This can inspire the movement of the working class during the turbulent times we have entered in Greece, Europe and globally.

Xekinima (CWI Greece) (http://www.xekinima.org/)
__________________________________________________ __________

At this stage nationalisation (right at the top) seems like a bit of a strange demand. I suppose the Bolsheviks did call for nationalisation of the banks though. Thoughts?

Lyev

12th May 2010, 20:20

Woops, this has already been posted. Please trash the thread.

Delenda Carthago

12th May 2010, 22:08

Xekinima is going to be ended in a about a month.

Lyev

12th May 2010, 22:37

Why's that? If you're gonna say something like that, please substantiate, because it saves me (or others) clogging up the thread with a reply.

Qayin

13th May 2010, 00:29

* For unified mass rallies of the left parties, which should be stewarded and protected from provocative anarchist actions and provocateurs.

Fuck this part.
Solidarity means attack.

Delenda Carthago

14th May 2010, 00:43

Why's that? If you're gonna say something like that, please substantiate, because it saves me (or others) clogging up the thread with a reply.

because we are gonna chase them to the fuckin last motherfucker.the only place they are going to feel safe is on their natural enviroment:the TV stations.

Delenda Carthago

14th May 2010, 00:53

Xekinima is a small group(I think they are 5-6 nationwide) that their members keep going on TV stations just to insult anarchists.They are nowhere but in TV and noone gives a shit if they do anything,except when they talk shit on anarchists.They are maybe left's biggest joke,since even members of SYRIZA dont know them.After Marfin deaths,they found it properly to combine with media(their partners anyway) to attack us.This is a counter revolutionary stance,that they are going to pay for.

Coggeh

14th May 2010, 01:09

Delenda Carthago

14th May 2010, 01:28

Ya go firebomb more banks who do you think your going to kill some chief exec? grow up.

fuck you.if you dont know nothing of Greece you dont come out your face.Did I came to you and talk to you about your situation?no.you do the same.

Charles Xavier

14th May 2010, 02:03

fuck you.if you dont know nothing of Greece you dont come out your face.Did I came to you and talk to you about your situation?no.you do the same.
I hope you get what you deserve provocateur!

Coggeh

14th May 2010, 03:49

fuck you.if you dont know nothing of Greece you dont come out your face.Did I came to you and talk to you about your situation?no.you do the same.

So fire-bombing banks in Greece is ok cause its Greece and not Ireland? I know a lot about the Greek situation but your Petit threats against my comrades in Greece is nothing short of childish.

Its important for the organised left to speak out against nhilistic tactics by some anarchists as its nothing short of counter productive and instead of people talking about the protests and the strikes their talking about the actions of a tiny minority of adolestant idiots who throw petrol bombs at things because they think its fun and think their being cool while at the same time throwing the actual movement into jeopardy. Right on dudes! :thumbup1:

Delenda Carthago

14th May 2010, 11:49

So fire-bombing banks in Greece is ok cause its Greece and not Ireland? I know a lot about the Greek situation but your Petit threats against my comrades in Greece is nothing short of childish.

Its important for the organised left to speak out against nhilistic tactics by some anarchists as its nothing short of counter productive and instead of people talking about the protests and the strikes their talking about the actions of a tiny minority of adolestant idiots who throw petrol bombs at things because they think its fun and think their being cool while at the same time throwing the actual movement into jeopardy. Right on dudes! :thumbup1:

do you know who did the arson?you know what anarchists say about the incident?you know where anarchist blocks where at the time?you know what has been going on since?NO.So why you talk shit?You feel good making anarchist look smaller?Are you companing the media in the organised attack against the strongest revolutionry force in Greece?Cause thats what's Xekinima is doing.All the counter revolutionary pigs have the same face.

Delenda Carthago

14th May 2010, 11:50

I hope you get what you deserve provocateur!

fuck you too.

bricolage

14th May 2010, 14:10

I hope you get what you deserve provocateur!

You really are ridiculous.

Ravachol

14th May 2010, 14:21

I love how all the keyboard warrior kiddo's join in to start INTARWEBZ TENDENCY WAR :rolleyes:

Coggeh

14th May 2010, 18:51

I love how all the keyboard warrior kiddo's join in to start INTARWEBZ TENDENCY WAR :rolleyes:
Give it a break. Any time there's any debate on this site between tactics/orgs people come along and say basically what you've said and think you have gave some revalation to the rest of us.

Or is it that you think responding to threats made against members of ones organisation by someone who supports firebombing banks is juvenile?

maskerade

14th May 2010, 20:03

I'm not an anarchist, but I think that attacking the entire greek anarchist movement because of a firebomb is pretty low, especially considering how most organized anarchists have distanced themselves from this particular event.

As far as I can tell, Greek anarchists have the most pull at the moment....shouldn't we be (critically) supporting all socialist tendencies which are rising up against the austerity measures?

Lyev

14th May 2010, 23:33

Found this interview (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews_interviews_spokesman_for_Greek_far-left_party_Xekinima) with Petros Tzomakas, a member of Xekinima. Thought it was interesting. Please take a look. It's from wikinews, so it's hard to post as quote, directly onto here.

Qayin

14th May 2010, 23:56

I hope you get what you deserve provocateur!
Congrats your on the same level as Alex Jones now

Across The Street

15th May 2010, 00:24

Hey leave Alex Jones outta this. Haven't you ever seen any Linklater films?
Anyway, while we're at it let's go ahead and leave Tom Brokaw outta this too.

Qayin

15th May 2010, 00:32

Hey leave Alex Jones outta this. Haven't you ever seen any Linklater films?
Anyway, while we're at it let's go ahead and leave Tom Brokaw outta this too.
I don't know what the hell your talking about, the guy calls anarchists provocateurs.
Alex Jones(who is a stupid fucktard mind you) did the same when Infoshop made a statement for Anarchists to crash the tea parties. When you call the enemies of the state and capital provocateurs your a turd in the punch bowl.

Delenda Carthago

16th May 2010, 20:57

Lyev

16th May 2010, 21:17

Right now there is a big conversation on athens indymedia where everybody(even SYRIZA members) are cursing Xekinima for that text.Everyone is pissed of their anti revolutionary,miserable stance where (as a SYRIZA member said)"they saw (anarchist space) him fallen,they thought him for dead and they rushed like crows"...All I can say is sorry. This sectarian (and sometimes condescending) attitude that Marxists (including the CWI) sometimes have towards anarchism really pisses me off. I just don't understand why, when fellow comrades are actively involved in struggle, we criticize their politics, rather than show signs of solidarity. Sometimes the far-left really fucks me off. Is mindless criticism of potential allies going to help us progress, at all?

bleh

16th May 2010, 21:39

Right now there is a big conversation on athens indymedia where everybody(even SYRIZA members) are cursing Xekinima for that text.Everyone is pissed of their anti revolutionary,miserable stance where (as a SYRIZA member said)"they saw (anarchist space) him fallen,they thought him for dead and they rushed like crows"...

How is their stance any different from any of the statements released by various anarchist groups (apart from their parliamentarianism)? And furthermore, how is their stance anti revolutionary vis-a-vis what the rest of the left is calling for?!?

BOZG

16th May 2010, 23:07

All I can say is sorry. This sectarian (and sometimes condescending) attitude that Marxists (including the CWI) sometimes have towards anarchism really pisses me off. I just don't understand why, when fellow comrades are actively involved in struggle, we criticize their politics, rather than show signs of solidarity. Sometimes the far-left really fucks me off. Is mindless criticism of potential allies going to help us progress, at all?

In order to win a battle, you require correct tactics and correct ideas and it's necessary to condemn, criticise and challenge incorrect ones. I make no apologies for that. The question is how it is done.

BOZG

16th May 2010, 23:09

Qayin

16th May 2010, 23:20

We're not interested in massaging any egos for the sake of it. You're entitled to sit in your own little circle jerk if you want. That's responding to a guy actively in this struggle.

BOZG

17th May 2010, 07:56

That's responding to a guy actively in this struggle.

Well gee golly, I didn't know. I'm sorry oh wise one. What's your point?

Delenda Carthago

17th May 2010, 11:12

All I can say is sorry. This sectarian (and sometimes condescending) attitude that Marxists (including the CWI) sometimes have towards anarchism really pisses me off. I just don't understand why, when fellow comrades are actively involved in struggle, we criticize their politics, rather than show signs of solidarity. Sometimes the far-left really fucks me off. Is mindless criticism of potential allies going to help us progress, at all?

I dont blame you buddy.You found a text about this whole thing and thought it would be OK to post it.You dont have a clear view on what's up here,you cant know that Xekinima is the joke of the left.If I find the mood later, I might post facts about Xekinima to show you why they are the joke of the left.

Delenda Carthago

17th May 2010, 11:16

In order to win a battle, you require correct tactics and correct ideas and it's necessary to condemn, criticise and challenge incorrect ones. I make no apologies for that. The question is how it is done.

If you want to take advantage of anarchist space's fall,you do what you do and you show the people that you do it better.This has been a failure for Xekinima.All they are known for is cursing anarchists and their summer camps.Oh,and making statements at the media posing as "the movement".

Delenda Carthago

17th May 2010, 11:32

We're not interested in massaging any egos for the sake of it. You're entitled to sit in your own little circle jerk if you want.

actually,the "litle circle jerk" is Xekinima,which barely has 100 members nationwide.Even I thought that they might be more,but a SYRIZA member told me that they are only about a hundred.The guys that try to be as much as "user friendly" as they can,but all they get is farts from the society.They have zero,0,nada,miden political substance.They are uncapable to make ANY diffrence at all.

On the other hand,anarchist space is one of the starring forces on the political scene of Greece for the last 3-4 years.If today there is a section "the situation in Greece",there are two left political forces that made this possible:anarchist space and KKE.If there wasnt December uprise(which Xekinima says it was a failure...because the goverment didn't quit),if there wasnt a constant attack on everything this world is(from bombs to unions and from riots to spoken word) today there would be just half of it.

Xekinima trys to hide that besides the murder,the riot was a huge success.If there wasnt the murders,now anarchism in Greece would be no1 political force.They choose to hide that 60.000 that occupied Syntagma square where yelling the anarchist slogan "burn the whorehouse Parliament" and "mpatsoi gourounia dolofonoi".They choose to that anarchist radio stations telephones caught on fire from callings of people who had nothing to do with anarchism.They just say the usual bullshit that comes only from their heads:riots make people afraid.And you know why they do it?Because they cant understand it.They dont get it why people are not beeing afraid from riots,instead more and more people are doing it.They dont get it.Seeing that they can do nothing about it,they choose to make a sneak attack just to get a piece of our body.And they did.They took our nuts.In they mouth.

So fuck Xekinima and fuck you too for making yourself their attorney.We are FAR from dead.

BOZG

17th May 2010, 13:38

actually,the "litle circle jerk" is Xekinima,which barely has 100 members nationwide.Even I thought that they might be more,but a SYRIZA member told me that they are only about a hundred.The guys that try to be as much as "user friendly" as they can,but all they get is farts from the society.They have zero,0,nada,miden political substance.They are uncapable to make ANY diffrence at all.

On the other hand,anarchist space is one of the starring forces on the political scene of Greece for the last 3-4 years.If today there is a section "the situation in Greece",there are two left political forces that made this possible:anarchist space and KKE.If there wasnt December uprise(which Xekinima says it was a failure...because the goverment didn't quit),if there wasnt a constant attack on everything this world is(from bombs to unions and from riots to spoken word) today there would be just half of it.

Xekinima trys to hide that besides the murder,the riot was a huge success.If there wasnt the murders,now anarchism in Greece would be no1 political force.They choose to hide that 60.000 that occupied Syntagma square where yelling the anarchist slogan "burn the whorehouse Parliament" and "mpatsoi gourounia dolofonoi".They choose to that anarchist radio stations telephones caught on fire from callings of people who had nothing to do with anarchism.They just say the usual bullshit that comes only from their heads:riots make people afraid.And you know why they do it?Because they cant understand it.They dont get it why people are not beeing afraid from riots,instead more and more people are doing it.They dont get it.Seeing that they can do nothing about it,they choose to make a sneak attack just to get a piece of our body.And they did.They took our nuts.In they mouth.

So fuck Xekinima and fuck you too for making yourself their attorney.We are FAR from dead.

Actually, we have substantially more members than 100.

Yawn, yawn, yawn. You've still yet to substantiate how riots etc. raise class consciousness.

nuisance

17th May 2010, 13:54

In order to win a battle, you require correct tactics and correct ideas and it's necessary to condemn, criticise and challenge incorrect ones. I make no apologies for that. The question is how it is done.
:rolleyes:
Doesn't something need to be proved before it can be correct? The tactics of the left have resulted in resounding failures time after time, so please stop talking of correctness, it's embarassing.

Lyev

17th May 2010, 16:53

In order to win a battle, you require correct tactics and correct ideas and it's necessary to condemn, criticise and challenge incorrect ones. I make no apologies for that. The question is how it is done.No, of course I understand that, and I'd choose the CWI's line, or Trotskyist ideas over anarchist ones any day, but I feel sometimes there's too much petty criticism from within the left. We should be more supportive, rather than critical.

Lyev

17th May 2010, 16:56

:rolleyes:
Doesn't something need to be proved before it can be correct? The tactics of the left have resulted in resounding failures time after time, so please stop talking of correctness, it's embarassing.In what context and where? What are you referring to? Give a concise example. And what would you do in this situations and ones similar to it? On the topic of tactics, please can an anarchist explain why rioting and burning buildings is a valuable tactic? Although it's a bit more mundane, wouldn't it be better to spend time selling newspapers or something like that, maybe?

17th May 2010, 17:04

I dont blame you buddy.You found a text about this whole thing and thought it would be OK to post it.You dont have a clear view on what's up here,you cant know that Xekinima is the joke of the left.If I find the mood later, I might post facts about Xekinima to show you why they are the joke of the left.

Which "left"? The anarchist left?

Delenda Carthago

17th May 2010, 19:05

Which "left"? The anarchist left?

no.THE Left.in general.eurocommunists,communists,anarchists...you name it.

Mitsos

17th May 2010, 20:31

First of all Xekinima,the Greek section of CWI,is not that small.It is a small organization but we are about 500,and not 5-6.Secondly,we are doing really good job with immigrants with our frontial organization Y.R.E.,like other sections of Europe.We are organizsing marches with other antiracist organizations,unions,etc which get attention,that's why we are been called in the media.

Third,about the incident,the only thing came after a protest of 200,000 people was the death of 3 workers.If you think that is a success and that practice should cary one,then you pose a threat to the movement of the working class and we have to protect our protests from you.

Ofcourse there is a part of the anarchist movement which was shocked by the killing of these workers and they are re-examining their practices.That's a healthy attitude,re-examine your practice or tactic when something goes wrong.I hope these comrades will come to the nessecary results.

Fourth,a part of the anarchist movement didn't have anything to say about the killing,like the Athenian Indymedia.I pity those dorks.They can't present any other arguments so their tactic is threats like gang members "if you say that i 'll come and get you".

Delenda Carthago

17th May 2010, 20:41

Fourth,a part of the anarchist movement didn't have anything to say about the killing,like the Athenian Indymedia.I pity those dorks.They can't present any other arguments so their tactic is threats like gang members "if you say that i 'll come and get you".

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2010/05/12/may-5th-the-anarchists-speak-out/

Mitsos

17th May 2010, 21:16

the organised attack against the strongest revolutionry force in Greece

:thumbup1: :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::l augh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

The "strongest revolutionary force in Greece" a.k.a. anarchism doens't have a clue on how to react.Its has zero suggestions and if you check their leaflets they are saying the exact same things from one protest to another,even when they are on different issues!!!!

At the same time, the 95% of the population opposes their tactics,such as burning banks or shops and they have no infuence in working class.Their only influence is in rich pupils who want to live the revolution on their 16's and some students.But most of them are pupils at their 16-17.

BOZG

18th May 2010, 11:48

No, of course I understand that, and I'd choose the CWI's line, or Trotskyist ideas over anarchist ones any day, but I feel sometimes there's too much petty criticism from within the left. We should be more supportive, rather than critical.

Is our orientation towards the working class or the activist left?

Lyev

18th May 2010, 11:59

Is our orientation towards the working class or the activist left?Is it not both? Of course the working class takes priority. With this in mind, don't we orientate towards the working class better with the help of other leftists, with similar goals and ideals?

Delenda Carthago

18th May 2010, 12:11

BOZG

18th May 2010, 12:12

We'd like to win over layers of left activists but our primary orientation is towards the working class and if it necessary to make criticisms of the wrong tactics of the left in order to advance general class struggle, that must take primacy. I'm not saying we should just denounce the left, those criticisms have to be made in a sharp but skilful manner. But in the grand scheme of things, I'm not overly worried about hurting a few feelings or sensitive souls along the way, if it is necessary.

Mitsos

18th May 2010, 16:22

can you explain to me then,if 95% are against us,why we keep getting stronger while you are unknown even in the classes of SYRIZA?When was the last time you gathered more that 200 people in a demo?

First of all, at your best,after December you didn't gathered more than 5,000.Sorry to dissapoint you but Antarsya(a small coalition of small left parties) got 20,000 votes.

The problem is that you compare a relatively small left organization with the entire anarchist movement.why not comparing an organization of the left with anarchist groups???lets say AK?i think its the largest and doesn't have more than 1000.and we are a small organization of 500.

usually our blocks are from 100 to 300(in athens) depending on the protest.who many anarchist groups have 300people in their blocks?

the reason why you got bigger the last years is due to police brutality.you are consisting mainly by students who want to hit back the cops.You have no influence on the working class and that was obvious on the protest of 6/12 where people from the protest were throwing bottles and yelling to 16 years old who were trying to destroy shops.Besides,bringing down a shop is an extremely revolutionary tactic. :p

Delenda Carthago

18th May 2010, 17:08

First of all, at your best,after December you didn't gathered more than 5,000.Sorry to dissapoint you but Antarsya(a small coalition of small left parties) got 20,000 votes.

The problem is that you compare a relatively small left organization with the entire anarchist movement.why not comparing an organization of the left with anarchist groups???lets say AK?i think its the largest and doesn't have more than 1000.and we are a small organization of 500.

usually our blocks are from 100 to 300(in athens) depending on the protest.who many anarchist groups have 300people in their blocks?

the reason why you got bigger the last years is due to police brutality.you are consisting mainly by students who want to hit back the cops.You have no influence on the working class and that was obvious on the protest of 6/12 where people from the protest were throwing bottles and yelling to 16 years old who were trying to destroy shops.Besides,bringing down a shop is an extremely revolutionary tactic. :p
You compare the number of voters with the number of rioters?

OK.Whatever you say.We are by completly luck in the spot we are now.you on the other hand, I am sure you explain the spittin that you get from everyone because..?

Palingenisis

18th May 2010, 17:25

You compare the number of voters with the number of rioters?

OK.Whatever you say.We are by completly luck in the spot we are now.you on the other hand, I am sure you explain the spittin that you get from everyone because..?

Though Im not an anarchist and dont have that much time for anarchism it really annoys me when Trots and Euro-Communists slander you guys as being basically students and trustfundistas. The anarchists who actually take on cops and fascists in my experiance are nearly 100 per cent working class. You lads at the end of the day have a lot more to offer.

Tower of Bebel

18th May 2010, 17:47

Despite the fact that many aren't keen of the WW, this is nevertheless a thought provocing formulation:

"Workers engaged in this level of struggle need their own defence corps, to steward protests and pickets, and to defend them from attacks by police and fascist goons. Yet we need also to defend ourselves from indiscipline and dangerous stunts. The strength of the working class lies not in its ability to generate random bomb attacks, but in its organisation - that is the difference between ourselves as a class capable of imposing an agenda on society and ourselves as a set of individuals in possession only of our ability to toil."

Mitsos

18th May 2010, 20:01

You compare the number of voters with the number of rioters?

OK.Whatever you say.We are by completly luck in the spot we are now.you on the other hand, I am sure you explain the spittin that you get from everyone because..?

Luck?Did i even mentioned luck?are you blind or you just can't respond and you are presenting non-existing arguments to make yourself seem "winner"?

Let's see how much spittin we are getting from everyone:

the last 4 years we have doubled our size

we are part of an international with an MEP

We have launched a frontal organization called Y.R.E. which has organized succesfull rallies and a huge campaign for the rights of the second generation of immigrants (which opened the discussion of their rights inside the greek society and made the present goverment present a bill.We condemned though the final bill which got passed as beyond the real needs of the immigrants)

Many of your members are playing an acting role in the unions in the private sectors,like in mental health,cleaning services and others

We have launched a new frontal organization called "Green Attack" which is also a huge success,so much that we got attacked by SKAI media(a media group which makes show off afforestations and is hugely EU-corporation-funded)

I am pretty sure you have tens of examples of anarchist groups of the same size doing more things.Apart from burning workers.

Delenda Carthago

18th May 2010, 20:31

Mitsos

18th May 2010, 20:46

Palingenisis

18th May 2010, 20:53

It's ok dude.I understand that you don't have any arguments.It's really irelevant that we have members who are presidents of unions or vice presidents.Go play with your bombs and burn some workers now.

Και κοιμησου νωρις,εχεις σχολειο αυριο πιτσιρικα.

What are you saying?

Where is AttackGr saying that he personally plays with bombs as you put it? Maybe he understands these bombings are part of the enfolding social war for better or worse and maybe he doesnt believe in cheap condemnations of comrades who make mistakes but never the less demonstrate their bravery and commitment?

Trots will always have a go at things they cant control.

Solidarity with the working class anarchists of Greece and all the rest of the "dangerous rabble" there...

Mitsos

18th May 2010, 20:56

dude,ok.you can tell your comrades in CWI anything you want,but you and I know that what you just posted is ridiculus!!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

you doubled your size?you became what? 150?:laugh::laugh:

green attack?wtf is that?

the only reason people know you is from guys that got into PASOK and made themselves PASOK members(Panagopoulos GSEE GM is one of them),and by your TV appearences!!!

Whatever.Keep telling yourself and your buddys that you rock!:laugh:I dont give a shit.You tryed to attack us while we were down,you failed.Now we are getting back up,no thanks to you "comrades"!

All the other bullshit,its irrelevant.Good luck with changing the course of history!:D

1) We doubled our size and we are 500.

2)I suppose you have nothing to do with enviromentalist movement,it's ok to be ignorant.

3)Yes we were in Pasok in the '70s when pasok was a left reformist party.It was a good idea to be there back then.It's something called "tactics" which the anarchists have never heard off.You are accusing us because Panagopoulos was a member for a while 30years before???

4)There is a reason dude why we are in medias whenever there is a antiracist demo: 'cause we are well know and we can defend our ideas in public,not only in Indymedia.You,on the other side,cannot defend your ideas not even in revleft.COWARDS.

5)You managed to commit suicide on your own dude.:thumbup1: 3 workers dead.Good luck next time,kill even more and everyone will be spitting on you.

6)All the other bullshit,its irrelevant

Ofcourse it is if you are a pupil or a student.Unions?who gives a shit about unions?the working class.but what these losers know about revolution right?besides,the only have the only succesfull revolution in history(cause last time i checked the anarchists in Spain got fucked)

Mitsos

18th May 2010, 20:59

What are you saying?

Where is AttackGr saying that he personally plays with bombs as you put it? Maybe he understands these bombings are part of the enfolding social war for better or worse and maybe he doesnt believe in cheap condemnations of comrades who make mistakes but never the less demonstrate their bravery and commitment?

Trots will always have a go at things they cant control.

Solidarity with the working class anarchists of Greece and all the rest of the "dangerous rabble" there...

There are no working class anarchists.Most of them are kids at their 15-17's.

When you are using a tactic that burns 3 workers and is used to condemn manifestations,then something is going wrong.I believe that was the end of the anarchist "movement" in Greece.Hopefully though,cause we really have to protect ourselves and our protests from these thugs.

Delenda Carthago

18th May 2010, 21:29

Yes,we are thugs,we dont have nothing to do with working class,we are kids of 15-17,apolitical morons and I am a kid that tommorow has to go to school(as you told me like a malakas in greek)!:D
You are worthy your paycheck.You can talk to the media and tell them that we are not protesters.Oh,wait.You already did that!The next day on ALPHA channel,a slut from your group told the channel that anarchists are not demostrators!That's real revolutionary.

The same you did at 2/2/2008 when you left the anarchists fight in the streets with neonazi Golden Dawn and you went to Mega channel and told them than anarchists "niped in" your peacefull protest!:laugh:

Your best friends are TV channels,no wonder you are antianarchists.

Delenda Carthago

18th May 2010, 21:30

PS.The chick you send on 2/2 at least was good looking.The one you send to play the media's game at 5/5 was an ugly one.Dont send ugly people on TV,they might cut you out,you dont want that,do you?

Palingenisis

18th May 2010, 21:36

PS.The chick you send on 2/2 at least was good looking.The one you send to play the media's game at 5/5 was an ugly one.Dont send ugly people on TV,they might cut you out,you dont want that,do you?

Comrade you know that the CWI appeared on British TV after working class people defended themselves against Thatcher's pigs running wild in the so called "Poll Tax riot" and offered to "name names" of the "trouble makers"?

I guess Im anti-anarchist...But most anarchists I have met have been decent working class women and men. More than can be said for the CWI.

Lyev

18th May 2010, 21:38

Delenda Carthago

18th May 2010, 21:39

just to give a clear picture...

when anarchists and communists(REAL TROTSKYIST COMMUNISTS LIKE EEK)where street fightin against neonazis and riot cops (COMBINED!),getting stabed and hammered,getting arrested etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njgRrqOMpAE

Xekinima was on MEGA channel,apologising for "punk anarchists that niped in their peaceful demo" and to clarify that they have nothing to do with us, and they are good antifascist protesters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQQKHKnH758

this example shows quite well the whole situation.
Xekinima is a group of friends that are pro-law and order,anarchist space are pro-full frontal attack against the system.

We wouldnt mind of them beeing what they want,but they keep sticking our noses to our bussiness.They keep attacking us,wanting a piece of our pie.What they end up doing,is something like the dude from american pie...

And no,buddy,I dont blame you for Panagopoulos beeing on your pathetic group 30 years ago.I blame your group for try to make PASOK trotskyist,and end up you beeing PASOK!:laugh:

Palingenisis

18th May 2010, 21:41

Delenda Carthago

18th May 2010, 21:41

Comrade you know that the CWI appeared on British TV after working class people defended themselves against Thatcher's pigs running wild in the so called "Poll Tax riot" and offered to "name names" of the "trouble makers"?

I guess Im anti-anarchist...But most anarchists I have met have been decent working class women and men. More than can be said for the CWI.

Oh,so its a worldwide CWI attidute to snitch on the channels?sweeeeet!!

Delenda Carthago

18th May 2010, 21:50

Look at the end of the day there is a class line...All that I have heard from Greece is that the rioters are working class and clearly their actions are political. The Trade Unions in most of the west are basically agents of capitalism. Critize the rioters and the anarchists yes...But if you condemn them you cross a line. Same goes for the urban guerilla groups.

thats right.its not about critisism.KKE m-l also posted a very hard critisism that even thought it puts me in a tight spot, i am ok with it.because they are doing a comrade-on-the-struggle critisism.Xekinima on the other hand,plays the game of the goverment and the media PERFECTLY.

Mitsos

18th May 2010, 22:07

Apart from you obvious sexist insults,i see you have no arguments.How typical of hooligans....

Sorry dude,but we called that protest,alongside with other antiracist organizations,leftist groups,unions and well know lefts,like Korovesis.

IT WAS NOT YOUR OWN PROTEST

IT WAS NOT YOU WHO COULD DECIDE WHEN,HOW,WHERE AND IF WE SHOULD CLASH

OUT OF 2,000 YOU WERE LESS THAN A HUNDRED IN THAT PROTEST

ONE OF THE STABBED,PETROS TZOMAKAS,WAS ONE OF US(i mean cwi member)

so how the fuck it was "your bussiness"???

We never entered Pasok believing that we could turn the leadership to revolutionaries or that we could be the leadership.We were 70 people back then and when we left Pasok we were 750.that's around 1000% rise in numbers.What a failure...!

I wont apologize for going into media and supporting ourselves.In the start i thought you were just to elitists to go and speak in the media.Through the years I understand that you are just COWARDS.If you don't have the Indymedia cutting every opinion or post criticing you are helpless.That's why you didn't,you don't and you will never have any connection with the working class and the society.

P.S. Everyone has the right to make its own protests they way he/she wants.If you don't agree why the fuck are you joining the rallies of Syriza and the Unions???Get the hell out,nobody is gonna miss you.

If you have the balls go on your own and try to start riots(with abusing the university asylum).Ofcourse you don't,so they only thing you can do is hide behind huge protests.But that came to an end.From now on anarchists should change attitude or get the hell out of our protests.

Mitsos

18th May 2010, 22:12

Oh,so its a worldwide CWI attidute to snitch on the channels?sweeeeet!!

No,we should leave others defend us and then criticize them because they do not accept our tactics,although we already know they don't.

Sorry dude,but I want to be liked by the 6,000,000 workers of Greece,not the 5,000 rich kids who play "anarchism".Honestly i couldn't care less about your opinion on CWI. I just hope Syriza and the unions will protect their rallies from now on.

the poor little anarchists won't have huge protests to hide then. how sad... then they can take their bmw's and go back to ekali.(the subberb where all the extremely rich guys live)

Palingenisis

18th May 2010, 22:18

Most of the Anarchists I have on mainland Europe have been dirt poor and from working class backgrounds. The one Greek anarchist I met the same. Try another tactic its not working.

Mitsos

18th May 2010, 22:26

i know a lot more anarchists.

yes there are some anarchists who are working class but they have nothing in common with the class as a whole. The only thing they say is "burn everything down".no matter the political situations,no matter the consiousness of the masses,the only thing they say is "burn everything".

And most of them are kids who hate cops.I understand why they are doing it.But this doesn't have any posistive effect.I have a lot of friends who want to go to a protest and they are afraid becuase of these thugs.If their tactics are making people unwilling to come to a protest,then its wrong.If they don't get it,we must protect our protests from them.Simple as that.

Delenda Carthago

19th May 2010, 00:26

blah blah blah...

btw,your shittext is still posted on athens indymedia...

seems we are not that cowards,huh?

PS.Are YOU a working class kid?

28350

19th May 2010, 01:59

Greece doesn't exist.

Mitsos

19th May 2010, 09:16

blah blah blah...

btw,your shittext is still posted on athens indymedia...

seems we are not that cowards,huh?

PS.Are YOU a working class kid?

Look kiddo,i see you have no arguments.go burn some workers. "yo,revolution,burn them".

I said you are not brave enough to defend yourselves somewhere else than Indy.You can't even read??? :laugh:

I am a working class and not a kid,i am an "invisible". It's obvious that you are not since you embrace tactics which the working class oppose.Are you sure you are not a cop?'cause many anarchists in greece are just cops infiltrated the "anarchist movement"

like these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdNf4r9y3aE

Qayin

19th May 2010, 10:02

Look kiddo,i see you have no arguments.go burn some workers. "yo,revolution,burn them".He's never said that.

I am a working class and not a kid,i am an "invisible". It's obvious that you are not since you embrace tactics which the working class oppose.Are you sure you are not a cop?'cause many anarchists in greece are just cops infiltrated the "anarchist movement"
To make it sounds like a huge number.
I doubt the Greek state has some cop agency that pays hundreds of people to dress and "act" like anarchists, don't be ridiculous.
At most they have a hand full, like at most protests they do.

Mitsos

19th May 2010, 12:06

I doubt the Greek state has some cop agency that pays hundreds of people to dress and "act" like anarchists, don't be ridiculous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8cFyD1KMH0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpw67wKdXE8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWUEKHCPxuU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P01O9iPdJI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsD3mBTQBKk&feature=related

Who's ridiculous exactly?

I am not saying that all anarchists are cops.But many "anarchists" are just provocateurs.The problem is that anarchists embrace the same tactics as the provocateurs-cops.That makes them both stupid and dangerous for mass movements.That's why we have to protect our protest from them.

Mitsos

19th May 2010, 12:10

To give you an example,the CP has blocks and guards its protests really well.On Friday they had a protest of 100,000 people without even one tear gass.

Why?cause the anarchists know that if they go there and start riots they will be beaten by them.On the contrary,Syriza(a left coalition) and the unions allow anarchists to join them.That means that even in small protests 2-5,000 people riots may errupt due to these thugs.And that's making a lot of people unwilling to come to protests.

We just have to beat the up once or twice and then we will get rid of them.But Syriza and the unions don't want to take that political risk cause they are afraid that they might lose popularity among the students and the youth.

Delenda Carthago

19th May 2010, 13:22

Mitsos

19th May 2010, 13:40

this is the populist talk of Xekinima:

they try to act like the reason we dont "nip in"(the revolutionary talk we was talkin about) in KKE's demostrations is that they secure their protests.

If they were just a litle bit political on their analysis,they would see that KKE does seperate protests from everybody else for years now.So its not a military thing,its a political thing.

So,i dare you:act funny.try to act funny even tommorrow and you shall see why KKE's guard dogs made Syntagma-Propilea in 30" 5 years ago...

So if we decided to make our own protest and explain from the begining that we don't want anarchists block you are going to respect that and make your own protest?I would love to see that.

So,i dare you:act funny.try to act funny even tommorrow and you shall see why KKE's guard dogs made Syntagma-Propilea in 30" 5 years ago...[/

So securing our protests from you is banned and we should be afraid of you?That's greek anarchists.PURE THUGS.

Delenda Carthago

19th May 2010, 15:56

First of all,you are creating an hypothesis that excists only in the minds of your bankrupt company that you call "political group".We have been since then in the streets with the Left and noone had the intentions to "secure THEIR protests from the bad guys".

Second of all,if we are thugs for defending ourselfs from your pogrom,you that promotes the violence against anarchists are a fascist and a state assistand and you shall be treated as one.

Mitsos

19th May 2010, 16:45

Well,if you can't understand with words,what else can I do?did you ever ask a protest before burning a bank or destroying a shop,in the name of the protest ofcouse?

Your imposing your methods on everyone undemocratically and when we try to protect ourselves we are called fascists?that's like a thug who calls the police because the victim fights back.

Well,the days where you could hide behind the left or the unions must come to an end,unless you change tactics and make peaceful protests.

check here some of your comrades

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLlN2Kh1AV8

what a coincidence!cops again!!! :)

Palingenisis

19th May 2010, 16:57

I am a working class and not a kid,i am an "invisible". It's obvious that you are not since you embrace tactics which the working class oppose.Are you sure you are not a cop?'cause many anarchists in greece are just cops infiltrated the "anarchist movement"

Under certain conditions even pretty conservative working class people can be supportive or sympathetic to the younger ones rioting aswell as urban guerrilla tactics...I have seen that with my own eyes. To say blanketly that all working class people oppose such tactics is crap. As far as I am concerned the reaction the police got that December was called for by the murder they commited. I think the KKE condemning it makes them scumbags.

What working class people hate most here in Ireland is snitches, touts, whatever word you want to use...Ive been told its similar in Greece which makes me wonder what class you are from?

Delenda Carthago

19th May 2010, 16:58

what are you trying to prove right now?that undercover cops can hide behind a hood to provoce?GEE,you must be really really inteligent person!I mean,dude,did you thought it by yourself or did Payatsos gave you a party lesson on undercover cops!:laugh::laugh:

Seriously dude,you are an idiot.You take the violence and the purpose that a cop is excersising and you compare it to an anarchist,because of the means.Its like saying that cops and firemen are the same thing because they wear uniforms or that Lenin and Hitler are the same because they were GS of their parties.If you seriously have finished high school,you are a very good example how greek schools dont promote critical thinking.

Palingenisis

19th May 2010, 17:17

One thing Id like to know is how sure is anyone that most of the rioters in Greece are anarchists as such?

BeerShaman

19th May 2010, 17:40

One thing Id like to know is how sure is anyone that most of the rioters in Greece are anarchists as such?
I would like to know this too.

BeerShaman

19th May 2010, 17:50

Man, those partydogs make me sad. I am feeling like no person in this world is decently thinking... Why the fuck are you people typing here? I've gotten sick. You/we are typing one or another and then you/we answer so that we prove that something happens or doesn't happen. One says: "You are wrong." And the other says: "No, you are wrong." Eh, well all these discussions have become destructive and rotten. Seems that discussion can stop being producive. All I've understood from this whole thing is that KKE and the rest are no comrades of ours. No matter workers or not you are worse than nationalists! Unbearable! Thus, our fault to take you seriously. By what is worth fighting for, I hope one day people will understand what evil parties and this "centralizing democracy" do to them. May the right way be visible and clear so that we step on it!:crying::bored:

Delenda Carthago

19th May 2010, 18:19

One thing Id like to know is how sure is anyone that most of the rioters in Greece are anarchists as such?

not at all.especially nowdays,a huge wave of young kids of working class,young people who have nothing to hope for,or even nothing to live for,are going all out as they understand it.

Are they anarchists?Not with the political sence.Are they to be blamed for anti-working class behaviour?Only in the guilty minds of Xekinima and Mitsos,who I seriously doubt he is not from North Suburban.He even be himself from Ekali.And you know how I know this?

Because working class kids nowdays dont give a fuck about unions,they stoped believing in unions.They dont care about Marx,Engels,Lenin or even Bakunin-At the best,they might check out guys like Nechaev because of his ultra-violent revolutionary actions.But they dont care about theory.They are born in a world that saw CCCP collapses and the ideology of TINA take roots.The majority of young working class kids are raised in a world that is fully aggresive to everything they are:students,workers,human beings,persons.They might not even believe in a revolution:I know lots of people like that that they are to despered to believe in a change.

So,these kids,wrong or right is another discusion,are seeing in riots the perfect way to express their anger against the system that puts them in misery.I know it cause I was like that one day.They dont care for the political result,they dont care about the...elections or TV debates.If they lived in England,they would be in a teenage hood gang,stabbing people for fun.Luckily in Greece there is a more political way to express their anger.

On the other hand,guys like probalby Mitsos,are midle class kids who only talk about working class intrests,suposing they are knowing whats best for working class.They even work at shitty proletarian jobs sometimes just to buy their guilts towards working class for they are not part of it,but still they care for it.

That's the average leftist in a group like Xekinima.Groups who cant feel the pulse of their times,chewing and spitting quotes of Marx,Lenin,Trotsky or whatever and fighting to believe for themselves that they are "in the struggle".Back in 2007 they were your average student in a univercity,voting for EAAK.

I wouldnt blame them for it.But they keep putting pressure on everybody else,telling them how to act,like they own the protests.Middle class "educated" assholes telling to other people that dont have a shot in life and that they dont give a fuck studying on your Marxes,your Lenins or Bakunins how to be more revolutionary.

I dont support that uneducation of them.That's why I chose for myself something different.But I cant blame them or label them "ekali kids" like that motherfucker Mitsos,neither I would find violence against them the first solution.Its a matter of ethics.

Mitsos

19th May 2010, 19:12

not at all.especially nowdays,a huge wave of young kids of working class,young people who have nothing to hope for,or even nothing to live for,are going all out as they understand it.

Are they anarchists?Not with the political sence.Are they to be blamed for anti-working class behaviour?Only in the guilty minds of Xekinima and Mitsos,who I seriously doubt he is not from North Suburban.He even be himself from Ekali.And you know how I know this?

Because working class kids nowdays dont give a fuck about unions,they stoped believing in unions.They dont care about Marx,Engels,Lenin or even Bakunin-At the best,they might check out guys like Nechaev because of his ultra-violent revolutionary actions.But they dont care about theory.They are born in a world that saw CCCP collapses and the ideology of TINA take roots.The majority of young working class kids are raised in a world that is fully aggresive to everything they are:students,workers,human beings,persons.They might not even believe in a revolution:I know lots of people like that that they are to despered to believe in a change.

So,these kids,wrong or right is another discusion,are seeing in riots the perfect way to express their anger against the system that puts them in misery.I know it cause I was like that one day.They dont care for the political result,they dont care about the...elections or TV debates.If they lived in England,they would be in a teenage hood gang,stabbing people for fun.Luckily in Greece there is a more political way to express their anger.

On the other hand,guys like probalby Mitsos,are midle class kids who only talk about working class intrests,suposing they are knowing whats best for working class.They even work at shitty proletarian jobs sometimes just to buy their guilts towards working class for they are not part of it,but still they care for it.

That's the average leftist in a group like Xekinima.Groups who cant feel the pulse of their times,chewing and spitting quotes of Marx,Lenin,Trotsky or whatever and fighting to believe for themselves that they are "in the struggle".Back in 2007 they were your average student in a univercity,voting for EAAK.

I wouldnt blame them for it.But they keep putting pressure on everybody else,telling them how to act,like they own the protests.Middle class "educated" assholes telling to other people that dont have a shot in life and that they dont give a fuck studying on your Marxes,your Lenins or Bakunins how to be more revolutionary.

I dont support that uneducation of them.That's why I chose for myself something different.But I cant blame them or label them "ekali kids" like that motherfucker Mitsos,neither I would find violence against them the first solution.Its a matter of ethics.

As you said the cops and the anarchists use they same methods.

I have anything else to add.Thank you for proving me right.I never expected it would be so easy.

In your "mind" if a cop shop lifts it's bad but if an anarchist does it,it's ok. Are you typing from GADA?

Mitsos

19th May 2010, 19:16

According to AttackGr change will come if we burn banks and shops and not through organizing the workers as a collective force.

Still in the Abc of struggle.

Delenda Carthago

19th May 2010, 20:48

I meant the hood you idiot.

Palingenisis

19th May 2010, 20:55

not at all.especially nowdays,a huge wave of young kids of working class,young people who have nothing to hope for,or even nothing to live for,are going all out as they understand it..

The reason I asked is that over in England back in the 80s and 90s when working class people rioted for very good reasons the capitalist media would always go on about "Anarchist trouble makers" even though the number of actual anarchists was tiny.

The Unions here (Ireland) are also basically tools of the boss, only the Independent Workers Union which I think the CWI is against has anything real to offer and is on the side of the working class. Sometimes the only available means of struggle to people is rioting, pulling a trigger or blowing something up. Trots and particularly the CWI just dont understand this.

Lyev

19th May 2010, 21:08

The reason I asked is that over in England back in the 80s and 90s when working class people rioted for very good reasons the capitalist media would always go on about "Anarchist trouble makers" even though the number of actual anarchists was tiny.

The Unions here (Ireland) are also basically tools of the boss, only the Independent Workers Union which I think the CWI is against has anything real to offer and is on the side of the working class. Sometimes the only available means of struggle to people is rioting, pulling a trigger or blowing something up. Trots and particularly the CWI just dont understand this.Please state, very clearly, what it is you have against Trotskyism and the CWI. I asked you to substantiate your immature little snipe against Militant -- apparently they "snitched" to the cops -- but you failed to provide evidence. Why doesn't the CWI understand rioting? I'm not sure what your point is. Militant were quite central to the anti-poll tax demonstrations in the 80s and 90s. The whole reason things got out of hand on the main March 1990 process was because the police attacked; not "trouble makers".

Palingenisis

19th May 2010, 21:44

Please state, very clearly, what it is you have against Trotskyism and the CWI. I asked you to substantiate your immature little snipe against Militant -- apparently they "snitched" to the cops -- but you failed to provide evidence. Why doesn't the CWI understand rioting? I'm not sure what your point is. Militant were quite central to the anti-poll tax demonstrations in the 80s and 90s. The whole reason things got out of hand on the main March 1990 process was because the police attacked; not "trouble makers".

You are class enemies plain and simple. You might aswell ask what I have against the British Labour Party. AttackGr can also I believe see that.

Devrim and many others saw your leader on the Television. Why not send him a private message?

Yeah the filth attacked and people defended themselves. Pity the CWI leadership didnt see it that way.

Jolly Red Giant

19th May 2010, 22:22

I was going to give a considered post about the situation with the anarchists in Greece - and then I see this nonsense -

The Unions here (Ireland) are also basically tools of the boss, only the Independent Workers Union which I think the CWI is against has anything real to offer and is on the side of the working class.
1. The CWI is not against the IWU
2. The CWI does not agree at this point - or a number of years ago when the IWU was formed - that the correct strategy was to leave existing trade unions and form new ones.
3. The trade union leadership are tools of the bosses - however many rank-and-file trade unionists have fought valiant battles over the past period to defend jobs and conditions. To dismiss the current trade unions because of the actions of the leadership and to move to set up new unions, is to abandon the rank-and-file to the mercy of the bureaucrats.
4. The IWU has not exactly set the world on fire since it was formed in 2003.

This is not to say that the IWU does not have a role to play - but building a new trade union is signficantly more difficult than reclaiming existing ones. It may be necessary at some point when struggle demonstrates that a union cannot be reclaimed, to split the union and set up a new formation - but that situation does not exist in Ireland at the moment. To do so now would be to isolate some of the activists from the main body of the labour movement.

Sometimes the only available means of struggle to people is rioting, pulling a trigger or blowing something up.
This is nonsense - it is nothing more than letting off steam - it serves no concrete purpose and in many incidences it impacts negatively on the movement.

You are class enemies plain and simple.
Yes we know - we are unwilling to accept that you are the one true heir and follow your mood swings- but I think we will pass.

Devrim and many others saw your leader on the Television.
Urban myth and one that is constantly perpetrated by ultra-left sectarians - it is amazing that people like you will come on here criticising the media for telling lies about your 'comrades' in India or Greece or where-ever - yet when it comes to the poll tax riot 'we all saw it on TV' - get a life.

Palingenisis

19th May 2010, 22:32

Palingenisis

19th May 2010, 22:35

I was going to give a considered post about the situation with the anarchists in Greece - and then I see this nonsense -.

Im sure your views on "the situation with the anarchists" in Greece will be as wise and considered as your views on Republicans in Ireland.

Maybe you can invite a "left-leaning" member of the Golden Dawn over here for a lecture tour?

Jolly Red Giant

19th May 2010, 22:43

Devrim and millions of others saw and heard one of your leaders with their own eyes and ears offer to rat people up.
Yea - yea - keep repeating it over and over in your head - mantra mantra mantra :rolleyes:

Palingenisis

19th May 2010, 23:06

Yea - yea - keep repeating it over and over in your head - mantra mantra mantra :rolleyes:

If you got anywhere near power it would be scarey.

Devrim

19th May 2010, 23:28

Urban myth and one that is constantly perpetrated by ultra-left sectarians - it is amazing that people like you will come on here criticising the media for telling lies about your 'comrades' in India or Greece or where-ever - yet when it comes to the poll tax riot 'we all saw it on TV' - get a life.

As I have said before I saw the interview on TV. Generally when militant people have been asked about this they deny it happened at all. You admitted the interview happened and claimed it had been 'heavily edited by the BBC, and the militant explained it in their paper immediatly after'.*

I have never heard this line before nor have I ever heard of the Militant article explaining what happened. That is not to say it isn't true.

As you also know it is also true that on the TV news they certainly appeared to say it.

I for one would be interested to see a copy of the piece explaining it if it is available. I realise that it might not be easy to find as it was well in the days before the internet. However, until I see a convincing explanation, I will continue to believe what I saw a member of Militant say on TV.

Devrim

*I am paraphrasing here. I can't find the thread.

20th May 2010, 00:37

A link to both the interview and the Militant article would be helpful.

Mitsos

20th May 2010, 10:04

Originally Posted by Palingenisis http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../showthread.php?p=1751906#post1751906)
Sometimes the only available means of struggle to people is rioting, pulling a trigger or blowing something up.

That's not the case in Greece.Here we have unions(and especially the last 3years we have many new unions mainly by militant leftwings), we have organized protests and left parties. Rioting,pulling triggers or blowing something up is for those we do not trust their "theories" enough to express them to the working people.

Oh, and the people being caught for these actions, like 17N, ELA, etc THEY HAVE NEVER RECEIVED ANY SUPPORT FROM THE WORKING CLASS NOR THE SOCIETY.

Dumb ideas and tactics always end up into zero.

Jolly Red Giant

20th May 2010, 11:03

As I have said before I saw the interview on TV.
And as I have said before - can you directly quote the questions Steve Nally and/or Tommy Sheridan was asked and the answers they gave?

Generally when militant people have been asked about this they deny it happened at all. You admitted the interview happened and claimed it had been 'heavily edited by the BBC, and the militant explained it in their paper immediatly after'.*
The interview did happen - no one ever denied that - what the CWI have consistantly explained is that Steve Nally and Tommy Sheridan never said that people involved in the riot should be shopped to the police. I remember seeing the interview although I do not recall the detail and nothing out of the expected happened from what I can remember.

nor have I ever heard of the Militant article explaining what happened. That is not to say it isn't true.
The Militant issued a statement immediately after the riot addressing the rants from establishment politicians for the rioters to be severely punished. It also issued a statement when these accusations started about what Steve Nally and Tommy Sheridan said and outlining the Militant's attitude to the accusations. I do not have a link to the original statements (it was a non-issue except for a handful of people who think they can use it to take a swipe at the CWI) - but I have previously linked to the section of Peter Taaffe's book 'The Rise of Militant' where the issue is addressed -

Thatcher had pictured the organisers of the campaign as a "threat to democracy". This was from a government which had sought to emasculate the trade unions, including eliminating the right to belong to a union for GCHQ workers, attacking journalists in the press and the media, and driving 17 million people into poverty. The Labour leaders had reacted to the poll tax demonstration and riot with a call, in the words of Roy Hattersley, for "exemplary punishment" for those tried and convicted for participating in disorders. We replied:

In the light of the frame-up of the Guildford Four, of the Birmingham Six and many others... we do not share Hattersley’s touching faith in capitalist justice.
...It is impermissible to collaborate with the capitalist state, even against those whose methods and actions we implacably disagree with. Disrupters and disorganisers of Saturday’s demonstration should be dealt with by the forces of the labour movement and not by the capitalist state.
It was necessary to make this statement because, quite shamefully, Steve Nally and Tommy Sheridan had been accused after the demonstration by the some small groups of threatening to 'name names’ of those who deliberately set out to disrupt the demonstration. The implication, repeated ad nauseum in the months that followed, was that Militant supporters would collaborate with the police and supply to the state names of their opponents who they believed were involved in 'violence’." This was totally false. Steve Nally and Tommy Sheridan were both overwhelmingly re-elected as national officers of the Fed despite these unscrupulous allegations.

As you also know it is also true that on the TV news they certainly appeared to say it.
It could well be a case that some people heard what they wanted to hear - not what was actually said.

However, until I see a convincing explanation, I will continue to believe what I saw a member of Militant say on TV.
I would be delighted to see an original copy of the interview - but I will make this point - if it was such a big issue (and it was broadcast on the main evening news) why did all of these people who 'heard' Steve Nally and Tommy Sheridan said that they would shop people to the cops, not keep a recording of it. There are numerous uploads on youtube of tv footage of the actually news reports of the riot (and I have looked at everyone I could find) - yet not a single one that I am aware of with the interviews (and I am also sure some people could have some fun with a video editor if a copy was found).

Now I really am fed up of this nonsense - I am only addressing it in the context of how supports of the Maoists in India continuously condemn as distorted reports of Maoists actions in India - yet the exact same people are jumping on a bandwagon to take a swipe at the CWI over an urban myth that 'millions of people saw' that we wanted to shop rioters to the cops twenty years ago. It is a disgraceful slur on a revolutionary organisation and two individuals and now something that has become an urban myth (like the supposed ban on gay people joining the Militant) and should be confined to the dustbin.

Devrim

20th May 2010, 11:45

And as I have said before - can you directly quote the questions Steve Nally and/or Tommy Sheridan was asked and the answers they gave?

Surprisingly not, I don't have word for word recall of a TV interview I saw about twenty years ago.

The interview did happen - no one ever denied that

I have heard people deny it. I'd be pretty surprised if a seach on here didn't reveal some examples.

- what the CWI have consistantly explained is that Steve Nally and Tommy Sheridan never said that people involved in the riot should be shopped to the police.

You are probably right they didn't say 'shopped'. They talked about being prepared to name names.

Obviously a signicant amount of people did see it though as it was 'repeated ad neauseum as Peter Taffe said.

I would be delighted to see an original copy of the interview - but I will make this point - if it was such a big issue (and it was broadcast on the main evening news) why did all of these people who 'heard' Steve Nally and Tommy Sheridan said that they would shop people to the cops, not keep a recording of it. There are numerous uploads on youtube of tv footage of the actually news reports of the riot (and I have looked at everyone I could find) - yet not a single one that I am aware of with the interviews (and I am also sure some people could have some fun with a video editor if a copy was found).

I would be delighted to see it too. I don't think your point that it isn't there on the Internet proves anything. If anything to me it would suggest the opposite. Surely somebody in Militant must have taped it knowing that their members would be interviewed. Surely there must be a copy in the Militants archieves. Surely if this allegation is false and it has been repeated as much as Peter Taffe said it would be easy to post it on YouTube to sort the situation out.

I think the lack of this video suggests more that the allegations are true than the opposite. Then of course it could just be that nobody has a copy.

Now I really am fed up of this nonsense

Me too. I am also personally offended by people suggestting that I am lying or might have chosen what I wanted to believe.

I don't think that groups should be slandered for things they didn't do. I believe that it is fundamentally dishonest. In fact I was protesting about slandering the CWI on this site just last week. In this case I belive it is true though.

Devrim

Jolly Red Giant

20th May 2010, 12:42

I have heard people deny it. I'd be pretty surprised if a seach on here didn't reveal some examples.
Anyone who would deny that there were interviews after the riot is being silly. Interviews did take place and there is one specific interview that people have focussed on - although depending on who you talk to the interview was with Steve Nally or Tommy Sheridan or both.

You are probably right they didn't say 'shopped'. They talked about being prepared to name names.
From my recollection it was stated in the interview that the APTF would 'name names' - but there was never a reference to the police. The intention clearly at the time (as has been explained by Taaffe) was that an investigation would be carried out by the APTF and if anyone was responsible for actions that shouldn't have happened they would be held responsible by the movement. The riot started because of the action of the police - but there were a very small number of individuals who ignored the democratic wishes of the overwhelming majority of those at the march (as decided by a show of hands at the begining of the march) to have a non-violent protest. These small number of individuals intentionally attempted to provoke the police into a response. These actions were irresponsible, anti-democratic and selfish and from what I recall these individuals were held accountable at subsequent anti-poll-tax meetings.

Obviously a signicant amount of people did see it though as it was 'repeated ad neauseum as Peter Taffe said.
For months afterwards every member of every far-left group in Ireland that I came across was spinning this story - and none of them had seen a damned thing on the tv.

I would be delighted to see it too. I don't think your point that it isn't there on the Internet proves anything. If anything to me it would suggest the opposite. Surely somebody in Militant must have taped it knowing that their members would be interviewed. Surely there must be a copy in the Militants archieves. Surely if this allegation is false and it has been repeated as much as Peter Taffe said it would be easy to post it on YouTube to sort the situation out.
Interviews with members of the APTF were conducted on a daily basis on national tv during this period - why would anyone record this specific interview. Protests took place in many parts of Britain on that day. Besides that Militant members spent the rest of the day helping many of those injured to get medical assistance and many of those arrested get legal assistance.

Me too. I am also personally offended by people suggestting that I am lying or might have chosen what I wanted to believe.
Devrim - I am not suggesting you are lying - but you (despite the fact that you post some of the most balanced comments on this forum), just as I, will have a certain bias when viewing interviews etc - especially when it involves people from a rival far-left organisation.

Specific example in my case - Eamon McCann and Richard Boyd Barrett from the SWP were interviewed on Irish national radio a couple of months ago. During the interview they disgracefully went on about how the Lindsey strike was a racist strike that they would condemn. Now I heard certain things in the interview that had me fuming. Afterwards some people suggested that I had heard things wrong so I had the opportunity of going back and listening to it on two or three other occasions on the radio stations website and yes I did hear a couple of things incorrectly. Incidentally - some in the SWP deny the interview ever took place.

It is unfortunate that there is not specific original evidence from twenty years ago on this issue to put it to bed once and for all (just as there is no evidence that Militant ever banned gays - except for an off the wall comment by Ted Grant that demonstrated his own weird views on homosexuality) - twenty years ago was a different time and a different palce - if it happened yesterday we would not be having this conversation - we would know exactly who said what, when, where and why and would could deal with it once and for all. Now I am done with the poll tax riot.

Devrim

1st June 2010, 08:01

Devrim - I am not suggesting you are lying - but you (despite the fact that you post some of the most balanced comments on this forum), just as I, will have a certain bias when viewing interviews etc - especially when it involves people from a rival far-left organisation.

Specific example in my case - Eamon McCann and Richard Boyd Barrett from the SWP were interviewed on Irish national radio a couple of months ago. During the interview they disgracefully went on about how the Lindsey strike was a racist strike that they would condemn. Now I heard certain things in the interview that had me fuming. Afterwards some people suggested that I had heard things wrong so I had the opportunity of going back and listening to it on two or three other occasions on the radio stations website and yes I did hear a couple of things incorrectly. Incidentally - some in the SWP deny the interview ever took place.

I am not really buying into this at all. It is what the Militant said.

Interviews with members of the APTF were conducted on a daily basis on national tv during this period - why would anyone record this specific interview. Protests took place in many parts of Britain on that day. Besides that Militant members spent the rest of the day helping many of those injured to get medical assistance and many of those arrested get legal assistance.

Nor this. The idea that Militant members were too busy 'helping many of those injured to get medical assistance and many of those arrested get legal assistance' for one member of an organisation of thousands to turn on a video recorder defies belief. Nor was it just another demonstration. It was one of the most massive demonstrations in British history. Other protests that 'took place in many parts of Britain on that day' would also have been covered on the same news programmes.

For months afterwards every member of every far-left group in Ireland that I came across was spinning this story - and none of them had seen a damned thing on the tv.

Maybe, but it was shown of the main lunchtime and evening news the following day. I would have presumed that many people did watch it.

From my recollection it was stated in the interview that the APTF would 'name names' - but there was never a reference to the police. The intention clearly at the time (as has been explained by Taaffe) was that an investigation would be carried out by the APTF and if anyone was responsible for actions that shouldn't have happened they would be held responsible by the movement.

Even if this were the case, and I certainly don't remember it being qualified like that, how can you 'name names' to the 'movement' without pointing them in a public domain for the police to also see. It is tantamount to the same thing.

As both you and I recall the militant did say they would 'name names'.

Devrim

Ravachol

1st June 2010, 14:15

Because working class kids nowdays dont give a fuck about unions,they stoped believing in unions.They dont care about Marx,Engels,Lenin or even Bakunin-At the best,they might check out guys like Nechaev because of his ultra-violent revolutionary actions.But they dont care about theory.

I don't think 'caring about theory' is required to act as an Anarchist, it isn't even required to act as an effective Anarchist. Theory ought to be born from struggle and in turn ought to further influence struggle. It isn't some static dogma, it's a continuous production of subjectivities. Whilst these 'riot kids' might not care about Marx,Bakunin or god knows what, I dare to bet my balls that their discontent is born from their conditions as a particularly precarious segment of the working class. These cycles of struggle most likely alter their worldview and interactions with eachother and even though their actions aren't very constructive yet their material conditions will drive them to develop a genuine desire for revolution that will steer them in the direction of more constructive theory and practice.

Again I'm just gonna quote Psycho's signature:

"Our comerades had not read Marx and were scarcely familiar with all of Proudhon's theories, but comon sense was their guide." Gaston Leval on the spanish revolution

chegitz guevara

1st June 2010, 22:59

Well this thread got stupid.

Die Neue Zeit

2nd June 2010, 01:44

Maybe because SYRIZA hasn't done much to match the KKE's political response. ;)

28350

2nd June 2010, 02:43

Sometimes I think I was a lot more hopeful about revolution before I learned about the culture of leftism now.

Honestly, guys. :(

Jolly Red Giant

2nd June 2010, 15:24

This is going from the sublime to the ridiculous

one member of an organisation of thousands to turn on a video recorder defies belief.
Well I have never seen a video copy of the interview - why didn't you record it? why didn't any of the 'thousands' of other members of left organisations record it. Why because the CWI is unable to produce a recording is it assumed that the urban myth is true? It could just as easily be argued that because those who have accused the CWI of threatening to shop rioters have been unable to produce evidence that these accusations are false. Indeed, with the lack of evidence I would contend that efforts by opponents of the CWI to attempt to blacken the organisation should stop. And remember, the only people on these forums who have seen this interview (and to the best of my knowledge,there was only one broadcast of the supposed contentious issue) are you and me - and clearly the recollection of this interview is different for both of us.

Even if this were the case, and I certainly don't remember it being qualified like that, how can you 'name names' to the 'movement' without pointing them in a public domain for the police to also see. It is tantamount to the same thing.
What nonsense - the state did not and would not have required any assistance from anyone to take action against the rioters. In local APTF meetings after the demo when elements involved in the riot turned up ad attempted to take 'credit' for their involvement, or when APTF members gave details of some of those involved in the riot and demanded an explanation, those involved were roundly turn on by the ordinary working class people involved in the movement. Despite this what happened at these meetings was never used as evidence against against anyone charged with the riot, nor was any new peron charged as a result of these meetings.

As both you and I recall the militant did say they would 'name names'.
And again - the context in which you heard those two words is different to what I heard. I have never been afraid to turn around and say when I felt members of the CWI or the organisation itself has made a mistake - when something happened that shouldn't have. But this was not one of them and the fact that both Sheridan and Nally were re-elected a couple of weeks later to the leadership of the APTF demonstrates that the membership didn't see it as an issue.

Now I would suggest that unless a copy of this interview emerges the issue should be left where it belongs - in the dustbin of history.

Devrim

3rd June 2010, 10:25

why didn't you record it?

Er.. because I was in London at the time. Er...because I didn't have a video recorder anyway.

More importantly though because I was not an organisation of thousands of people that surely must have had a press officer who dealt with these things.

It could just as easily be argued that because those who have accused the CWI of threatening to shop rioters have been unable to produce evidence that these accusations are false.

As you did before:

but I will make this point - if it was such a big issue (and it was broadcast on the main evening news) why did all of these people who 'heard' Steve Nally and Tommy Sheridan said that they would shop people to the cops, not keep a recording of it.

And my point remains the same, which is more surprising that individuals didn't keep a recording, or that an organisation of thousands, who knew that the interview would be on didn't? People can make up their own minds.

Again, I didn't bring this up as a point of evidence. I don't think that it proves anything, but merely to refute your suggestion that the absence of the evidence makes it untrue. To me the reverse seems more likely.

Indeed, with the lack of evidence I would contend that efforts by opponents of the CWI to attempt to blacken the organisation should stop.

I don't think it should because I know that it happened. I think the Militant's name should be blacked for publicly stating that they would 'name names' of people involved in confrontations on a demonstration.

And remember, the only people on these forums who have seen this interview (and to the best of my knowledge,there was only one broadcast of the supposed contentious issue) are you and me - and clearly the recollection of this interview is different for both of us.

Yes, the recollection seems very different. I don't though have any material reason to take up this position. I have criticised Militant on here before for its position on the Falklands War, but I also defending the CWI a couple of weeks ago, and actually wrote to you to inform you, when they were wrongly accused of organising things together with the BNP. I try to comment honestly on what goes on, and don't have any particular reason to attack or defend the CWI. You on the other hand, as a member, obviously do.

What nonsense - the state did not and would not have required any assistance from anyone to take action against the rioters. In local APTF meetings after the demo when elements involved in the riot turned up ad attempted to take 'credit' for their involvement, or when APTF members gave details of some of those involved in the riot and demanded an explanation, those involved were roundly turn on by the ordinary working class people involved in the movement. Despite this what happened at these meetings was never used as evidence against against anyone charged with the riot, nor was any new peron charged as a result of these meetings.

What does any of this show?

And again - the context in which you heard those two words is different to what I heard.

What context are you suggesting that it was said in? How were names to be named without the state being informed?

But this was not one of them and the fact that both Sheridan and Nally were re-elected a couple of weeks later to the leadership of the APTF demonstrates that the membership didn't see it as an issue.

That you managed to get your own people elected to you own front group hardly proves anything.

Devrim

Palingenisis

3rd June 2010, 10:37

. I try to comment honestly on what goes on, and don't have any particular reason to attack or defend the CWI. You on the other hand, as a member, obviously do.

The whole my organization for right or wrong attitude is a characture of Leninism and reminds me of elements with the Roman Catholic hierarchy. People in other organizations whether Maoist or Anarchist if they have a disagreement with one of their organization's positions will say so publically...But Trots never.

Lyev

3rd June 2010, 12:39

This tenuous video-clip of someone "snitching" to the police or whatever, that was recorded roughly 20 years, that no-one can seem to remember the details of, and nor can anyone find the original source seems a bit extraneous now. I don't think what one spokesperson said quite a long ago is wholly relevant to our day-to-day struggle right now; a party can change its policy, too, and can also apologise for mistakes. The irrelevance of this all is increased by how elusive the original footage is proving. I can find plenty of evidence and sources that describe the events at the 1990 poll-tax riots, and how organisation like SPEW and SWP, played a positive and constructive role. On the other hand, I can find barely anything that categorically states that any left-wing organisation "named names". Furthermore, if I looked hard enough I could dig up some dirt on practically every other communist or anarchist group to have existed. We're all just as fallible as each other.

Devrim

3rd June 2010, 13:26

This tenuous video-clip of someone "snitching" to the police or whatever, that was recorded roughly 20 years, that no-one can seem to remember the details of, and nor can anyone find the original source seems a bit extraneous now.

I can remember the details of it. They said they would 'name names'. I think that this is quite clear.

Also the term 'video-clip' makes it sound like something that was posted on Youtube. It wasn't. It was on the mainstream news, and seen by millions.

a party can change its policy, too, and can also apologise for mistakes.

They can, yes, but I haven't noticed them doing it.

I can find barely anything that categorically states that any left-wing organisation "named names".

Nobody is saying that anybody 'named names'. What is being said is that they said they would 'name names'. A member of that tendency from Ireland at the time has said that they said it.

Devrim

Jolly Red Giant

3rd June 2010, 13:41

Devrim

I really am not going to get into stupidity about why the Militant didn't record one interview out of hundreds of interviews - none of which have appeared. As I said on my last post - it is now in the realm of the ridiculous

That you managed to get your own people elected to you own front group hardly proves anything.
This actually demonstrates the lack of knowledge you have about the APTF - the movement had more than a million members - the Militant established it - drove it - and led it. The Militant did not control the APTF. In the majority of branches didn't have a single member of the Militant involved. My brother in law lived in Hereford at the time. He voted Liberal all his life. When the poll tax was introduced himself and a number of his workmates phoned Dave Nellist and asked him to speak at a meeting in Hereford (he had already agreed because someelse had already contacted him). Nellist spoke - a branch of the APTF was formed - it regularly had up to a hundred at meetings and a signed-up membership of a couple of thousand - and not a single member of the Militant to be seen. This was the nature of the APTF.

At the APTF conference a minority of the delegates were members of Militant - the riot was discussed in detail and Sheridan and Nally were re-elected with the overwhelming majority of votes.

Now Devrim I respect your balanced contributions on this forum and you can keep going with the conspiracy theories about the lack of a video of this interview - you can back the urban myth if you want - but I will once again state catagorically - neither Tommy Sheridan or Steve Nally stated that anyone involved in the riot should be shopped to the police and not a single individual was charged as a result of anything any member of the Militant said or anyone else said at APTF meetings in the aftermath of riot. Dozens of meetings were held and names were named and dealt with by the ordinary members of the APTF - the people involved in attempting to provoke the riot were ostracised by the movement, at the behest of the ordinary members, not the Militant.

Now I'm done with this.

Devrim

3rd June 2010, 14:08

I really am not going to get into stupidity about why the Militant didn't record one interview out of hundreds of interviews - none of which have appeared. As I said on my last post - it is now in the realm of the ridiculous

As I said I didn't present it as evidence. I merely commented on how the fact that it wasn't on the internet didn't disprove that they said it. People can go back and read what was said.

neither Tommy Sheridan or Steve Nally stated that anyone involved in the riot should be shopped to the police and not a single individual was charged as a result of anything any member of the Militant

Not what I claimed. I said that they said they would 'name names' as you yourself admitted they did, and I can't see how they could 'name names' without providing information to the police. Nowhere did I say that they actually did shop anyone.

Personally, I think that they were probably a bit caught off guard in the interview, wanted to distance themselves from the violence, spoke without thinking, and the Militant realised pretty quickly they had made a mistake.

not a single individual was charged as a result of anything any member of the Militant said or anyone else said at APTF meetings in the aftermath of riot. Dozens of meetings were held and names were named and dealt with by the ordinary members of the APTF

How could you know. I think that it would be quite naive to imagine that the police didn't send people to anti-poll tax meetings. How they used the information gathered is obviously not in the public domain. I am sure that quite a lot of anarchists would have outed themselves with 'macho bravado', but if names were being named I am sure the police picked up on it.

Certainly the police did try, and succeed in arresting many people after the event. Most of this would have come from pictures taken by themselves and by the media. I think though that 'naming names' publicly at a time like that is very dangerous.

This actually demonstrates the lack of knowledge you have about the APTF

Off the point, but I think I knew a reasonable amount about it, and I discussed it at length with one of the national committee members.

Now I'm done with this.

As you said before.

Devrim

Jolly Red Giant

3rd June 2010, 14:32

As I said I didn't present it as evidence. I merely commented on how the fact that it wasn't on the internet didn't disprove that they said it.
And as I said - just because its not there doesn't prove they said it - it is a bloody ridiculous argument

Nowhere did I say that they actually did shop anyone.
But that is the clear implication of your claim - to suggest otherwise is just semantics.

Personally, I think that they were probably a bit caught off guard in the interview, wanted to distance themselves from the violence, spoke without thinking, and the Militant realised pretty quickly they had made a mistake.
And as I have outlined before it was a section of an interview edited by Murdoch's media. If a mistake was made we would have stepped up to the plate - held up our hands and taken it on the chin. It was absolutely correct to state that the small number of people who acted in a completely undemocratic, sectarian and selfish fashion should have to answer for their actions to the movement.

How could you know. I think that it would be quite naive to imagine that the police didn't send people to anti-poll tax meetings. How they used the information gathered is obviously not in the public domain. I am sure that quite a lot of anarchists would have outed themselves with 'macho bravado', but if names were being named I am sure the police picked up on it.
Because not in one single case was any evidence from an APTF meeting used in court - and let's be clear about this - it was not the Militant who looked for this to be dealt with at the APTF meetings - it was the ordinary members who were absolutely hopping over how they were in effect, used and abused by these individuals.

I think though that 'naming names' publicly at a time like that is very dangerous.
Personally I think the approach of dealing with it at the meetings was the correct approach - otherwise some ordinary members may have been so annoyed that they could have actually shopped some people to the cops. The meetings allowed people to vent their anger, allowed the meetings to fully discuss the issues involved (and their was extensive discussions about the pros and cons of rioting) and in letting these individuals know that they were not wanted if they intended to continue with their tactics.

Off the point, but I think I knew a reasonable amount about it, and I discussed it at length with one of the national committee members.
Actually a key point - it clearly demonstrates that the sectarian attacks on Sheridan and Nally had absolutely no impact on the overwhelming majority of delegates and members of the APTF.

As you said before.
Yea - give it a bloody rest please. It going around in bloody circles for quite a while now.

Mitsos

5th June 2010, 09:55

Did they said they would give names to the police or to the movement?because giving names to the movement so it can self protect from these lunatics it's ok. who could deny that these kids who come to play in protests need a good spanking?

5th June 2010, 10:42

I can remember the details of it. They said they would 'name names'. I think that this is quite clear.

Also the term 'video-clip' makes it sound like something that was posted on Youtube. It wasn't. It was on the mainstream news, and seen by millions.

Yet you cannot source it and the recollection is disputed, so you're really empty handed here. Besides, as Lyev noted, a party can change opinions, even if it was true and sourced.

But yeah, as I was 5 at the time and didn't watch the BBC much, I'm going to call bullshit on this until a source can be found.

Devrim

12th June 2010, 08:26

Yet you cannot source it and the recollection is disputed, so you're really empty handed here. Besides, as Lyev noted, a party can change opinions, even if it was true and sourced.

But yeah, as I was 5 at the time and didn't watch the BBC much, I'm going to call bullshit on this until a source can be found.

Yet it happened. The fact that the actual clip from BBC news isn't available doesn't mean that it didn't. It is quite difficult to find on-line. resources from the pre-internet age.

I believe that it is quoted in Danny Burns book on the poll tax rebeelion, which as far as I am aware isn't on-line.

I think the fact that Taffe wrote about how many people were saying it shows there is something there:

It was necessary to make this statement because, quite shamefully, Steve Nally and Tommy Sheridan had been accused after the demonstration by the some small groups of threatening to 'name names’ of those who deliberately set out to disrupt the demonstration. The implication, repeated ad nauseum in the months that followed,

Did they said they would give names to the police or to the movement?because giving names to the movement so it can self protect from these lunatics it's ok. who could deny that these kids who come to play in protests need a good spanking?

I can't recall actually what was said, but I think the implication was that it was too the police.

Yea - give it a bloody rest please. It going around in bloody circles for quite a while now.

You imply that somebody is lying. Then change it to their memory being faulty. You distort what people say, and you are surprised that they respond.

And as I said - just because its not there doesn't prove they said it - it is a bloody ridiculous argument

Absolutely, and I never said that it did. It is not my argument though. It is yours. You argued that if copies weren't publicly available then there couldn't be much too it.

I would be delighted to see an original copy of the interview - but I will make this point - if it was such a big issue (and it was broadcast on the main evening news) why did all of these people who 'heard' Steve Nally and Tommy Sheridan said that they would shop people to the cops, not keep a recording of it. There are numerous uploads on youtube of tv footage of the actually news reports of the riot (and I have looked at everyone I could find) - yet not a single one that I am aware of with the interviews (and I am also sure some people could have some fun with a video editor if a copy was found).

I said that this didn't prove anything:

I would be delighted to see it too. I don't think your point that it isn't there on the Internet proves anything. If anything to me it would suggest the opposite. Surely somebody in Militant must have taped it knowing that their members would be interviewed. Surely there must be a copy in the Militants archieves. Surely if this allegation is false and it has been repeated as much as Peter Taffe said it would be easy to post it on YouTube to sort the situation out.

Then I suggested to me the lack of the film would imply the opposite. I was very clear though that I didn't see this as any evidence whatsoever.

I think the lack of this video suggests more that the allegations are true than the opposite. Then of course it could just be that nobody has a copy.

Nowhere did I say that they actually did shop anyone. But that is the clear implication of your claim - to suggest otherwise is just semantics.

No what I said clearly was that they said they would on TV. Nowhere did I say that they had actually done it.

And as I have outlined before it was a section of an interview edited by Murdoch's media.

Actually it wasn't 'Murdoch's media'. It was on mainstream terrestrial news.

How could you know. I think that it would be quite naive to imagine that the police didn't send people to anti-poll tax meetings. How they used the information gathered is obviously not in the public domain. I am sure that quite a lot of anarchists would have outed themselves with 'macho bravado', but if names were being named I am sure the police picked up on it. Because not in one single case was any evidence from an APTF meeting used in court

And this proves what exactly, except that you are quite touchingly naive about how the state's secret policemen work.

Devrim