Long Live the KKE

[Charles Xavier]

The KKE are showing their abilities to lead the working class into action. They truly represent the interest of the working class of Greece. They are both ideological and organizational developed. We may not be seeing revolution but we are seeing a strong working class resistance lead by the communists.

http://inter.kke.gr/bannerkke21


Resisting 'austerity' measures in Greece

Wednesday 05 May 2010
Isabella Margara
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Greece is at war. In agreement with the EU and the IMF abroad and the liberal New Democracy and nationalist LAOS at home, the social democratic PASOK government has pulled out all the stops in its propaganda campaign to win people over to the new "austerity" measures announced on Sunday.
The programme entails massive cuts to public and private-sector salaries and pensions, further benefits cuts, reduced overtime payments, VAT pushed up to 23 per cent, increases in indirect taxes, scrapping of collective labour agreements, massive redundancies in public services, the lifting of restrictions on private-sector companies and increases in the retirement age.
The argument boils down to "painful sacrifices or complete disaster."
But we have seen this scenario before when the bourgeoisie and its media were trying to convince people that sacrifices were needed in order to enter the "core" of the EU and to achieve Maastricht and euro targets.
Workers sacrificed their rights and 10 years later ended up with 25 per cent of the population living below the poverty line and official unemployment climbing up to 11.3 per cent. All this has been going on while the Greek banking sector and shipping and industries have been raking it in, making more than €1 trillion profit in the last five years.
Greece has been left with the largest national debt in the EU. But who is behind that debt?
Some have pointed the finger at supposedly "lazy" Greek workers.
But in fact the Greeks are the second hardest-working citizens in the world, with 2,052 hours worked on average each year.
The debt is actually down to the huge tax breaks enjoyed by large profitable companies, massive bank bail-outs, grotesque military expenses, deindustrialisation and the country's exposure to the unfettered EU market.
The imperialists agree 100 per cent with the measures taken by the government and they are asking for more blood now.
However, the Communist Party of Greece (KKE) strategy today is to respond to this ruling-class war with a war of its own against the powers of capitalism.
The KKE is striving to block these barbaric measures, to help the workers distinguish the Communists' position from those of PASOK, ND and their policies and to condemn the compromised leaderships of GSEE and ADEDY (the Greek TUC in the private and public sector respectively).
The GSEE and ADEDY originally boycotted the strikes, but were then dragged unwillingly into them under public pressure.
In short the KKE is looking to regenerate the movement and start the counterattack for socialism.
A key factor in this unfolding struggle was the "birth" of PAME - All Workers' Militant Front - 10 years ago.
PAME is a coalition of trade unions and activists. Although it participates in GSEE and ADEDY, it does not follow their compromised line and clearly confronts capital and its political expressions, whether of the social democratic or neoliberal variety.
It opposes the GSEE which advocates class collaboration. PAME has a class-oriented framework of demands and organises its own militant demonstrations.
During the last few months, seven out of 10 strikers have joined PAME rallies.
In KKE's experience, the stronger the opposition to social democracy and its leadership in the trade union movement, the faster the trade unions will fulfil their goals.
As expected, KKE activities have become an obsession for the ruling class.
An MP asserted last week that KKE aims and practice are on the borderline of legitimacy and former prime minister Konstantinos Mitsotakis even saw fit to stand up for "the principles of bourgeois democracy that KKE has violated."
So far the people have turned their back on these arguments because it is becoming increasingly clear that the real dilemma is whether we are going to compromise with poverty, unemployment and exploitation or whether we are going to assert our right to fulfil our contemporary needs and fight for an end to wage slavery.
Eight successful general strikes called by PAME in the last three months, including a 48-hour one on April 21-22, and an unprecedented Workers' Day demonstration have shown the way.
The next step in the struggle is a massive pan-Hellenic KKE rally, which will gather in Athens on May 15 to further the cause of socialism.
This front of workers, small farmers, the self-employed and young people needs to become a huge social and political anti-imperialist anti-monopoly coalition with only one duty - to bring the working class into power, for an economy with socialised monopolies, central planning and workers' control.
Millions of Greek workers have clearly spoken - there will be no sacrifices at the altar of capital.
Isabella Margara is part of the British branch of KKE.

[vyborg]

I wish KKE standed for socialism...as it did when it allied with ND....
I hope they will not fail again....even if, as they are rotten stalinist...either the rank and file will check the leadership or the leadership will derail the movement

[bie]

from: Solidnet

KKE’s proposal -Solution for the crisis


by Al.Papariga, General Secretary of the CC of KKE

KKE has always exposed, especially after 1991, the deception concerning the ceaseless development of capitalism, competitiveness and productivity with the supposed common benefit for workers and capitalists alike. It spoke of the inevitable economic crisis in all the capitalist economies. It predicted the crisis, the inevitability of a deep and sudden sharpening of all social contradictions and intra-imperialist ones.

The apologists of the capitalist system, among them the self-proclaimed supporters of the old PASOK or the revisionists, by reducing the cause of the economic crisis to an issue of management, negate or cover up the very base on which it arises, capitalism itself.

Today’s conditions demand the rate at which social-political consciousness develops to be accelerated and chiefly, be expressed through organization and planned struggle that has future prospects. It is the living standard of the people, of the working class and low-income families that concerns us, not the profits of the capitalists.

Our strategy is to stop the barbaric measures from being imposed as much as we possibly can under today’s conditions, to prevent them from being legitimated in people’s consciousness, for working people to disassociate themselves from PASOK and ND and their policies, for the movement to regroup and move forward on a course of counter-attack in order to overturn today’s balance of forces, for people’s power. We are not indifferent and neutral observers but since the political balance of forces does not permit us effective intervention in favour of the people, we put priority on the movement, outside of the Parliament.

The time has come for a social-popular front for political and mass action to take shape, to take on distinct form, developed from the existing militant forces that must be multiplied; that is the militant forces of the workers-employees in the private and public sectors, of the poor self-employed small businesses, the poor farmers, with a strengthening of the participation of the youth, children of working class and low-income families, especially those that study and work, are in training programmes, women and immigrants, fighters in the fields of science, art and culture.

For this reason joining forces with KKE is necessary, regardless of whether working people agree with KKE on everything, or if they have questions or different viewpoints on socialism.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_-ywULpyWE2c/S-PTKik7o4I/AAAAAAAABrQ/YA1bxzdaoTg/s512/9.jpg

The beginnings of such a front exist today as shown by All Workers’ Militant front (PAME), Αll Greek Antimonopoly Rally of the self-employed and the small tradesman (PASEVE), All Peasants’ Militant Rally (PASY), Students’ Militant Front (MAS) and other formations of the movement. Other formations will arise along the way including such formations in the mass movements against imperialist war, for individual and collective, democratic, trade union rights, and related formations that act in the area of local governance.

The heart of the struggles are workplaces, streets with small shops, the countryside, schools, universities, immigrant neighborhoods, every working class, popular neighborhood. Blockage of the new anti-worker measures including the abolition of collective labor agreements contracts and promotion of individual ones, worktime reduction, flexible work relations, etc., must be forcefully carried out in every workplace.

The working people must alter the balance of forces starting from below and this must be expressed as the struggle develops at the political level as well. The people must no longer put up with paying continually, submitting to indescribable sacrifices for the profits of industrialists, ship-owners, large merchants, the monopolies in general.

This social popular front must have two interrelated aims.

The first is the struggle which includes resistance, attrition, and undermining of the barbaric measures that the government and its allies are trying to push through; struggle against the machinery whose one part is the bourgeois political system of the country and the plutocracy.

A struggle of attrition is not enough; some small or bigger victories must also be won.

However, the most important task of the front must be creative, to liberate a popular militant standpoint, militant optimism and dignity, class patriotism and internationalism, popular action and initiative that can transform the front into a widespread current of change and overturning of the balance of forces.

This front has one choice, creative and realistic. To strengthen the alternative proposal for people’s power and a people’s economy having as key slogan, the socialization of the monopolies, the formation of popular cooperatives in sectors where socialization is not possible, nationwide planning with workers’ people’s control from the bottom up. To prove and demonstrate the actual development possibilities of the country which still exist, however precious time must not be lost in their further undermining and destruction.

KKE is escalating its efforts to propagate its political proposal while at the same time it increases its presence in daily struggles.

On May 15, we are organizing a nationwide rally that will make our proposal, our initiative, our total opposition to today’s policies, to today’s system, even more widely known.

No delusions

The accession into the mechanism will not hinder a weak recovery and a new cyclical crisis, even more intense than what we are experiencing now. From now, the people must be ready to create a rupture in the system and not become an ‘Iphigenia’. We do not endorse the viewpoint that the sacrifices of the people will go in vain; they will be utilized for the profits of capital, they will go to line the pockets of the capitalists.

The recovery of the Greek capitalist economy is becoming increasingly difficult, even if it becomes stabilized within the Eurozone. The shrinkage in manufacturing and in industry as a whole can only recover with great difficulty.

The management of the crisis either by the EU or by the IMF cannot overcome the contradictions of capitalist production whose goal and motive is profit. Whatever appears as a means of solving one problem e.g. the debt of Greece may greatly exacerbate other problems. Disengagement from the EU, disobedience is a prerequisite for the improvement of people’s lives. Every measure of resistance has value as long as it is joined up with the alternative prospect of power. Otherwise, disjointed reactions or forms of negotiation only serve to strengthen the extortion process.

The government after creating the conditions which jeopardized payments and led to bankruptcy, went ahead with its pre-decided plan to support a mechanism that the EU and the IMF set up following a series of inconsistencies, which allowed the IMF to penetrate even deeper into Europe as the so-called ‘savior of the peoples’.

The estimations concerning impending destruction greatly exaggerate the situation and serve as a form of extortion.

From the very first moment we recognized and emphasized that adherence to the mechanisms will be a fact, the government would find capital to borrow because no bourgeois, or anti-people government would leave its bourgeois class, the businessmen of the country, without support. The Greek government wanted to create the ideal framework for extortion, the perfect atmosphere in which the panic-struck Greek people would readily accept measures that have been already decided upon even 20 years ago.

Of course, the anxiety of the government over the terms of borrowing came up against real contradictions and conflicts that have nothing to do with the people. Greece found itself in the eye of the cyclone because its enormous debt was utilised by the competing capitalist countries within the EU and also between the USA, Russia, and China. Greece drew attention due to its position and its links with the eastern section of EU, Eurasia, and even the Far East. Greece became the weak link for the Eurozone and the interests of European capital and wider, because through Greece the competing countries spearheaded by big business can link up with peninsular Western Europe.

It’s not an issue of different interests between the corresponding peoples. These conflicts should lead to the promotion of unity and joint action of the peoples because independently of which country or which currency comes first, the people will lose and will continue to lose, instead of winning of achieving new gains.

As to the public debt that will be dealt with through loans, combined with the Stability and Development Pact or supposedly through renegotiation which will be handled internally, is a total hoax, disorientation, it’s a utopia.

To begin with, the debt is not merely a Greek issue. Many capitalist countries including developed ones exhibit an increasingly rising public debt. It is not an issue of management capabilities as it suits the bourgeois parties and opportunism to project.

It is a result of the gradual long-term decline of domestic manufacturing and agricultural production with the sharpening of antagonisms at the level of the EU and internationally.

Due to their small share, the industrial branches that were developed in Greece in energy, telecommunications, and other specific branches of manufacturing, were not able to compensate for the shrinkage of manufacturing as a whole.

The debt arises from enormous tax breaks given to business, state funding of big capital, enormous expenditure on NATO weapons programmes, capitalist competition under the conditions of the EU, counterproductive expenditures for the Olympic Games.

Competitiveness and intra-imperialist contradictions, the consequences which led to a sharpening of the crisis

The dollar desires to regain the position it enjoyed as the worldwide reserve currency. The devaluation of Euro benefits Germany which is the biggest export power in Europe during a period in which it is losing its leading position in worldwide export to China.

It has to do with the movement of capital that causes random profit gains through the so-called high risk investment products, that is insurance premium on state bonds. These movements are substantial, however they are not speculative in the strict meaning of the term, as they fall within the logic of the system.

There is also the pressure from capitalists who want to make direct investments in Greece but first want to pass anti-worker measures which have been pushed through in the rest of Europe but in Greece have been delayed mainly due to the people’s struggles that KKE has inspired and supported. These capitalists want to end the practice of closed professions, creating the conditions needed to take over new spheres at the expense of the middle layers, in sectors where the powerful monopolies have not yet been able to dominate, such as in the construction industry, transport, pharmaceuticals, etc.

Contradictions are also expressed between American, Arabic, Chinese, and Russian capital that have taken up positions in the Greek economy as a mid-position country and starting point for their entrance into the international market.

KKE’s PROPOSAL

The Anti-imperialist, Anti-monopoly, Democratic Front – People’s power and economy


The Greek people have to choose between two paths of development for Greek society, the path which is being followed and that which must be fought for by the people.

We maintain with facts and with proof that Greece, despite the serious and destructive damage that it has experienced in certain sectors due to the dominance of capital and of monopoly competition, has the pre-requisites to create and develop a self-reliant people’s economy.

The negative developments of the last 20 years in certain branches of industrial production, in the agricultural economy, can be dealt with under different political-economic and social conditions. It’s not too late.

Greek has a satisfactory level of the concentration of production, the means of production, a trade network, and a specific level of development in modern technology. It has a large, experienced labour force, with an improved educational level and specialization in comparison to the past, a large labour force in science.

It has valuable natural wealth-producing resources, important reserves of mineral wealth, which are an advantage in industrial production and the production of consumer goods.

It has the great advantage that it can ensure sufficient food supplies for people’s needs as well as for external trade. It has capabilities in the production of modern products, machinery, tools and appliances.

In order for a people’s economy to exist for all, we must find a solution to the problem of ownership for the satisfaction of people’s needs and not the needs of profit.

The choice is one: a change in the historically outdated social relations of ownership that determine the political system as well and concern the basic and concentrated means of production in the following areas: energy, telecommunications, mineral wealth, mining, industry, water supply, transportation.

Socialization of the banking system, the system of extraction, conveyance and management of natural resources; external trade, a centralized network of internal trade; housing for the people, research and the democratic provision of information to the people.

An exclusively public, universal and free system of education, healthcare, welfare and social security.

We estimate that there may be areas that will not be included in complete, nationwide, universal socialization. Complementing the socialized sector, a sector for the productive cooperatives in small-level agriculture may be formed, of small businesses in branches where concentration is low. Their participation in cooperatives will be understood as a beneficial choice, based on experience that exists from the monopoly ring.

The socialized as well as the cooperative sectors, production and distribution as a whole must be included in a centralized, national economic mechanism of planning and administration so that all of the means of production and the labour force can be mobilized, so that every possible form of international economic cooperation can be utilized based on mutual benefit. Domestic production will be protected and the interests of the workers will be protected from any possible consequences that arise from the needs of external trade.

Central planning is necessary in order to formulate strategic goals and choices, in order to prioritize branches and sectors, to determine where greater forces and means will be concentrated. The materialization of programming demands distribution by branch and area, and first of all, workers’ control of administration in every production unit and service, in every administrative organ.

The government as an organ of people’s power will be obliged to ensure the participation of the people in this completely new, totally unknown task, to support the people’s movement, to support and to be monitored by that within new institutions of workers’ and social control.

The centrally planned development of society is a need that stems from today’s demands, first of all the demands of mankind which is the primary productive force. The need to satisfy the wide-ranging modern needs of the working people, the need for the means of production to develop, for science and technology to develop for the benefit of the people, make central planning a vital necessity.

People’s power promotes intrastate commercial agreements and exchanges, agreements for the utilization of techno-knowledge based on mutual interest.

The public debt will be re-examined under people’s power with the main criteria being the interests of the people.

At the very beginning, people’s power will have to confront an organized internal and international reaction. The EU and NATO, the agreements with the USA, do not leave much room for maneuvering by EU member countries.

The solution to this problem by withdrawal from the EU is inevitable with the aim a self-reliant, popular development and cooperation that is in the interest of the people.

It is necessary to step up our activity on the basis of the struggle against the problems.

We struggle ceaselessly for immediate gains for the working people and we will continue so that measures can be imposed by the power of the movement reducing the acute problems, and relieving the people.

We have developed positions and demands for every single problem and issue that has come up. However, that is not enough today; an alternative proposal for progress is needed so that the struggle has an aim, a goal, meaning, and ultimately can apply pressure in every phase.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_-ywULpyWE2c/S9_klRjotFI/AAAAAAAABlU/s96twOLMvpw/s720/AKROPOLI1.jpg

[CChocobo]

:thumbdown:


Nothing but Stalinst stooges who aim to protect the state, and the ruthless thugs (police) who protect the very system they pretend to be against.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Regardless, they've got programmatic content:


The choice is one: a change in the historically outdated social relations of ownership that determine the political system as well and concern the basic and concentrated means of production in the following areas: energy, telecommunications, mineral wealth, mining, industry, water supply, transportation.

Socialization of the banking system, the system of extraction, conveyance and management of natural resources; external trade, a centralized network of internal trade; housing for the people, research and the democratic provision of information to the people.

An exclusively public, universal and free system of education, healthcare, welfare and social security.

We estimate that there may be areas that will not be included in complete, nationwide, universal socialization. Complementing the socialized sector, a sector for the productive cooperatives in small-level agriculture may be formed, of small businesses in branches where concentration is low. Their participation in cooperatives will be understood as a beneficial choice, based on experience that exists from the monopoly ring.

The socialized as well as the cooperative sectors, production and distribution as a whole must be included in a centralized, national economic mechanism of planning and administration so that all of the means of production and the labour force can be mobilized, so that every possible form of international economic cooperation can be utilized based on mutual benefit. Domestic production will be protected and the interests of the workers will be protected from any possible consequences that arise from the needs of external trade.

Central planning is necessary in order to formulate strategic goals and choices, in order to prioritize branches and sectors, to determine where greater forces and means will be concentrated. The materialization of programming demands distribution by branch and area, and first of all, workers’ control of administration in every production unit and service, in every administrative organ.

The government as an organ of people’s power will be obliged to ensure the participation of the people in this completely new, totally unknown task, to support the people’s movement, to support and to be monitored by that within new institutions of workers’ and social control.

The centrally planned development of society is a need that stems from today’s demands, first of all the demands of mankind which is the primary productive force. The need to satisfy the wide-ranging modern needs of the working people, the need for the means of production to develop, for science and technology to develop for the benefit of the people, make central planning a vital necessity.

People’s power promotes intrastate commercial agreements and exchanges, agreements for the utilization of techno-knowledge based on mutual interest.

The public debt will be re-examined under people’s power with the main criteria being the interests of the people.

[#FF0000]

:thumbdown:


Nothing but Stalinst stooges who aim to protect the state, and the ruthless thugs (police) who protect the very system they pretend to be against.

Anything to back that up or

[CChocobo]

Anything to back that up or

One need only read interviews by comrades in the streets during protests or occupations. They denounce violence against the state, especially against the police force. There's instances of them locking universities to keep people from trying to occupy them, they try to interfere with strikes trying to get workers to go back to work.. hmm what else beating and unmasking anarchists. It seems more like they're working with police forces rather than with other folks trying to fight for change.

Oh and even in the past when the KKE fought a guerrilla war against the right wing during the civil war in Greece after the Nazi occupation, they killed many of their own communists.

"Georgiou Papandreou took over as head of the party, shortly before the 2004 elections, but was unable to win support for its populist-led election campaign and promises of social reform. Both the father and grandfather of Georgiou had already filled the post of prime minister and ran the party like a family business.
It was the heritage of nearly two decades of corruption, nepotism and betrayal by PASOK that enabled the conservative ND to take power. With PASOK discredited, other organisations, such as the Greek Communist Party (KKE), have sought to fill the vacuum.

The KKE is the oldest party in Greece and had a history of hard-line support for the Stalinist bureaucracy in Moscow until the end of the 1980s, when the collapse of the Soviet Union precipitated a series of splits. Politically, what remains of the hard-line pro-Stalin KKE functions today more than ever as a political auxiliary to PASOK.

The KKE refused to participate in the mass demonstrations that began just a week ago, condemning the protests as the work of extremists and provocateurs. In an interview given to ANA-MPA, just two days ago, KKE leader Aleka Papariga savagely attacked the core of demonstrators, accusing them of acting on behalf of the state.

"The Molotov cocktails [fire-bombs] and looting of the hooded individuals, whose steering centre is linked with the state secret services and centres abroad, have absolutely no relationship with the mass rage of the pupils, the students, the people in general."

Papariga then went on to harshly criticise the Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA), implying that the coalition was acting either deliberately or unconsciously for the Greek state. (SYRIZA is an amalgam of radical and so-called socialist groups, including the Synaspismos organisation that was formed in 2004. It is affiliated to the European Left and maintains close relations with organisations such as the German Left Party.)

The KKE has won the praise of the government for its hostile stance towards the demonstrations. The Employment Minister congratulated the KKE for its "responsible" attitude."





http://www.zcommunications.org/two-on-greece-by-stefan-steinberg

also some interesting stuff here about their actions during the german occupation.

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/talks/greece.html

A lot of the eye witness accounts i've read in interviews of KKE acting in a very reactionary manner in the streets were from a book i just finished reading about the Greek insurrection in 2008. called "We Are An Image From The Future" want me to use direct quotes? Okay i will.

"After demonstrators clash with police, a dozen members of KKE(the Communist Party) and PASOK lock the university and refuse to let protesters in, leaving them at the mercy of the riot police"

"in several cities KKE try to protect the police or prevent occupation of the universities. Police are increasingly assisted by fascists in Athens, while in Thessaloniki members of the KKE unmask and beat protesters"

[Die Neue Zeit]

One need only read interviews by comrades in the streets during protests or occupations. They denounce violence against the state, especially against the police force. There's instances of them locking universities to keep people from trying to occupy them, they try to interfere with strikes trying to get workers to go back to work.. hmm what else beating and unmasking anarchists. It seems more like they're working with police forces rather than with other folks trying to fight for change.

You should read up on the Second International's distinction between a non-revolutionary period and a revolutionary period. Tactics change.

I would be concerned if they denounced counter-violence against police aggression (as opposed to police officers just standing where they are like in typical demonstrations).

[bie]

15.05.2010: Athens in Red.

"Shock and awe to the Greek ruling class from the "The April Theses" during the speach of Papariga , secretary general of the Greek communist party KKE..

She declared the immediate action to be taken in the new socialist society. There will be a new constitution, the way the judges will be elected , the power will be expressed by representatives of the working class in factories and offices, the health care will be free for all , so the education, there will be food and lunches given in the work places and schools.. also other measures will be taken that it not wise to describe them at this moment !! (the speech looked much like the book of Lenin "The April Theses")

It is the first time that "what will be done" is described in a such detail. It is the first time that KKE is speaking not to protest against the existing system, but focuses on what is going to to .. when taking the power.

The huge demo was at the range of 50.000 - 70.000 people and managed to occupy the total center of the city for more then three hours . Also special KKE members took position in front of the parliament to avoid provocations

Today was a day of POWER SHOW of the KKE"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Syt4nsRuM

Source: Indymedia UK http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/05/451284.html

[Sasha]

Anything to back that up or


"Also special KKE members took position in front of the parliament to avoid provocations
Today was a day of POWER SHOW of the KKE "


ie the demonstrators got used in an stalinist show of strenght by power hungy aparatski. Any one trying to vent their justified anger at the system (of wich the KKE is an part) an would have dared to set an step towards the parliament would have been taken care of by the KKE-statsi.

fuck that...
no gods, no masters, no glorious leaders...
for an end to all authority!

[FSL]

ie the demonstrators got used in an stalinist show of strenght by power hungy aparatski


In fact, people were forced to be there at gunpoint.

Anyway, as promised here http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1746350&postcount=51 red flags!

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2071/kke15052010.jpg (http://img29.imageshack.us/i/kke15052010.jpg/)


http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8535/12961356.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/i/12961356.jpg/)


S-5W_ziZ-II

[Charles Xavier]

These videos show the deep links the KKE has with the masses. When we struggle at times to get 10,000 in labour lead demostrations here in Canada on general issues. We are seeing the Communists of KKE a country of 11 million, getting a massive number of people together to hold the capital on a regular basis to start calling for the construction of socialism. Shows a massive show of strength by the communists and mass support.

[Lyev]

:thumbdown:


Nothing but Stalinst stooges who aim to protect the state, and the ruthless thugs (police) who protect the very system they pretend to be against.Don't be such an idiot. Your view is dogmatic and will leave the left in the 1930s. I have much more in common with these people -- even though they are Stalinists -- than I do with the Pasok government and the IMF. When events have come to ahead like they have in Greece, or even Spain, or, in fact, Nepal & India, we have no choice to be picky about who we do and don't support.

[RedPersonality]

Here (http://picasaweb.google.gr/cpg.kke/15052010HugeRallyOfKKEInAthens#5472144509467654626 ).Thousands of Red Flags!Huge Rally!
PEOPLES OF EUROPE RISE UP!

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_DPRV3qQ9vR0/S-8iozHsRQI/AAAAAAAANoM/HeqFSd-BKD0/s912/SANY0066.JPG

[Ocean Seal]

When events have come to ahead like they have in Greece, or even Spain, or, in fact, Nepal & India, we have no choice to be picky about who we do and don't support.
Quoted for truth. The revolution comes because of our co-operation. Let nations choose which type of socialism they prefer and with that we will be on track to complete the worldwide workers revolution.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

ie the demonstrators got used in an stalinist show of strenght by power hungy aparatski. Any one trying to vent their justified anger at the system (of wich the KKE is an part) an would have dared to set an step towards the parliament would have been taken care of by the KKE-statsi.

fuck that...
no gods, no masters, no glorious leaders...
for an end to all authority!
This is exactly what's wrong with anarchists, it's all about violence, tear this down, always challenge the State even when they can't beat it (And know they can't beat it). We don't build movements and working class-consciousness by rushing parliament when we don't have the strength to defeat them. Random malatoves thrown into banks and random acts of unorganized violence is not the way to defeat globalization, the national or international ruling class, etc. Venting anger for the sake of venting anger(even if it's well deserved) does not accomplish much if unorganized.

[Black Sheep]

Here (http://picasaweb.google.gr/cpg.kke/15052010HugeRallyOfKKEInAthens#5472144509467654626 ).Thousands of Red Flags!Huge Rally!
PEOPLES OF EUROPE RISE UP!

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_DPRV3qQ9vR0/S-8iozHsRQI/AAAAAAAANoM/HeqFSd-BKD0/s912/SANY0066.JPG






symbolic squat at the GSEE building you say?
I see you and raise you, anarchistically :P
http://indy.gr/projects/o-imi-orofos/project-home/katalipsi-gsee.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/_On3IaBKkOeg/SUk-C-g932I/AAAAAAAACxU/m1wMJ8zK340/s400/IMG_0939web.jpg
"From workplace accidents to cold blooded murders, state & capital take lives.No charge, immediate release of those arrested.General strike.The self-organization of the workers will be the grave of the 'bosses' "

Our banner is hand-made though, printing such huge stuff costs money we don't have.

[Honggweilo]

Our banner is hand-made though, printing such huge stuff costs money we don't have.

you might have if you got a job for change :p

[Искра]

I would really suggest admin to delete this thread. KKE is party which is allied with Putin's regime. Even Stalinists from Balkans are against it.

[FSL]

I would really suggest admin to delete this thread. KKE is party which is allied with Putin's regime. Even Stalinists from Balkans are against it.

I'll respond in a fitting manner:

LOLWUT?





Seriously, what is this nonsense? Don't talk about something if you don't know a thing about it. If anything should be deleted, it's your post.

[Dire Helix]

I would really suggest admin to delete this thread. KKE is party which is allied with Putin's regime. Even Stalinists from Balkans are against it.

Joke post?

From KKE`s statement on the conflict between Russia and Georgia in August 2008:

"The workers in our country should not have any illusions about the role of today’s Russia as it has a distinctly different class and social content from the USSR. Today’s capitalist Russia, as well as the EU, can neither become a “counterweight” to the USA nor a factor of international balance and security as they are both made of the same “material”, the “material” of the harsh class exploitation and injustice, of the dominance of capital and of the oppression of workers. The ruling class of Russia collides with the US and EU imperialists only in order to defend the interests of its own monopolies. At the same time is willing to accommodate with the USA and the EU for the further exploitation of the workers, the deprivation of their gains and the restriction of their social and political rights."

[bie]

KKE is party which is allied with Putin's regime. Even Stalinists from Balkans are against it.
Is it the position of the organization that you are representing here?

[What Would Durruti Do?]

This is exactly what's wrong with anarchists, it's all about violence

I suppose we should all be modeling ourselves after Gandhi?

Good luck with your non-violent "revolution".

[FSL]

I suppose we should all be modeling ourselves after Gandhi?

Good luck with your non-violent "revolution".

There is a large space between fetishizing violence and denying its historical role. That is where the proponents of actual revolution find themselves.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

when we don't have the strength to defeat them.

The working class always has the strength to defeat the capitalists. It's a question of "will" not "can."

Not only do the vast majority of people in Greece belong to the working class, it is also the working class which makes everything and runs everything. No workers = no society.

Opportunists have as many excuses for not overthrowing capitalism as the capitalists have for cutting workers wages.

[FSL]

The working class always has the strength to defeat the capitalists. It's a question of "will" not "can."

Not only do the vast majority of people in Greece belong to the working class, it is also the working class which makes everything and runs everything. No workers = no society.

Opportunists have as many excuses for not overthrowing capitalism as the capitalists have for cutting workers wages.

At this point workers don't want to overthrow capitalism. At least the majority of them doesn't. So instead of fantasizing you're defeating the capitalists by throwing rocks or molotov cocktails, you could do something much more important and try to convince these workers that they don't need their bosses.

That is revolutionary.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Workers won't be convinced by empty sloganeering; least of all coming from a bunch of bureaucratic political careerists with a decades-long history of sell outs.

PS. No where in my six years of posting here have I advocated "defeating the capitalists by throwing rocks or molotov cocktails."

[FSL]

Workers won't be convinced by empty sloganeering; least of all coming from a bunch of bureaucratic political careerists with a decades-long history of sell outs.

PS. No where in my six years of posting here have I advocated "defeating the capitalists by throwing rocks or molotov cocktails."

Then don't be a bureaucratic political careerist who's using empty slogans and is constantly sellling out workers.

The post you answered to was an answer to someone who apparently thinks "defeating the capitalists by throwing rocks or molotov cocktails" is possible, so I have no idea why you basically came to the rescue.

[AK]

You should read up on the Second International's distinction between a non-revolutionary period and a revolutionary period. Tactics change.
Oh, my mistake. So, if the party endorses it in the name of tactical change, anti-working class action is OK?

Forget this shit. Parties never bring true social change. They are designed to work within the remnants of the current establishment. The working class needs to take matters into it's own hands.

[Lyev]

Parties never bring true social change. They are designed to work within the remnants of the current establishment. The working class needs to take matters into it's own hands.But the party shouldn't be, and the case of Greece, definitely isn't, working in some sort of vacuum, totally isolated from everything the working class, students, middle class (i.e. "the masses") are doing. It's not like the party and the working class were on the same path, then there was a split in the path, and they both went they're separate ways. It just doesn't work like that. On the contrary, the party (or the "vanguard", if that's what you want to call it) needs the working class, or otherwise they would just be shouting a blank wall. The working class and the party and working hand in hand when it comes to struggle; I see it as the glue that holds the working class together. If there isn't some sort of revolutionary-left organisation to guide, tutor, organise etc. "the masses" then it can be quite dangerous, I think, because, if all the anger and frustration that everyone has at the current system isn't coherently directed it can very easily diffuse into nationalism or fascism. There was something 6 million unemployed when Hitler came into power. An economic downturn can be a big impetus for racist ideas; but it can also be a huge impetus for revolutionary change. I am not being condescending, I am not some sort of utopian socialist; I most definitely do not want to give socialism "down" to the working class. The vanguard is basically the most resolute, astute, devoted and intelligent members of the working class. Here's something from Marx on the matter (I felt necessary to quote it fully, rather than leave out many of the important points)
The Communists do not form a separate party opposed to the other working-class parties.

They have no interests separate and apart from those of the proletariat as a whole.

They do not set up any sectarian principles of their own, by which to shape and mould the proletarian movement.

The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality. 2. In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole.

The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand, practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others; on the other hand, theoretically, they have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the line of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement.

The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat.(Emphasis added)

[bie]

Forget this shit. Parties never bring true social change. They are designed to work within the remnants of the current establishment. The working class needs to take matters into it's own hands
Leaving behind all imaginary content this statement basically says that workers shouldn't be organized politically and should have no political representation. This is quite reactionary.

[AK]

Leaving behind all imaginary content this statement basically says that workers shouldn't be organized politically and should have no political representation. This is quite reactionary.
It's only reactionary to Leninist ideologies. I oppose a vanguard party that will supposedly act in the interests of the workers once it acheives power - which vanguards tend to do. Political organisation? There are other political entities than parties. Organisations, collectives, workers councils, etc.

[pranabjyoti]

It's only reactionary to Leninist ideologies. I oppose a vanguard party that will supposedly act in the interests of the workers once it acheives power - which vanguards tend to do. Political organisation? There are other political entities than parties. Organisations, collectives, workers councils, etc.
Kindly show us one example, where your said "Organisations, collectives, workers councils" have been able to bring revolution in anywhere in the world. The Leninist ideology is THAT IDEOLOGY, WHICH BROUGHT "WORKERS STATE" INTO REALITY. At least do something better to show that it's either reactionary or "invalid".

[AK]

Kindly show us one example, where your said "Organisations, collectives, workers councils" have been able to bring revolution in anywhere in the world. The Leninist ideology is THAT IDEOLOGY, WHICH BROUGHT "WORKERS STATE" INTO REALITY. At least do something better to show that it's either reactionary or "invalid".
This has the same value in an argument as me saying "communism doesn't work".

The kind of organisation I advocate, is similar to a vanguard party in that the end result of it's actions would be socialism. But nothing else.
It's not a party in any current sense, it is an entity which agitates the working class.

The only reason why any council communist (or leftcom, for that matter) movement hasn't occured has been the repression of these movements in "socialist" states and within organisations. Another reason why other movements were successful (and not mine) would be the funding given to them by "socialist" states.

[Dire Helix]

I oppose a vanguard party that will supposedly act in the interests of the workers. Political organisation? There are other political entities than parties. Organisations, collectives, workers councils, etc.

So, contrary to vanguard parties that will only supposedly act in the interest of the workers, political entities such as workers councils will always definitely act in their interest? Is that what you actually believe?

[bie]

It's only reactionary to Leninist ideologies. I oppose a vanguard party that will supposedly act in the interests of the workers once it acheives power - which vanguards tend to do. Political organisation? There are other political entities than parties. Organisations, collectives, workers councils, etc.
Organizations, collectives, workers councils are barely political entities. Their actions are often limited to the local activity. They may function as a local governments but they are quite unsuitable for more sophisticated political functions (eg. to run an army do defend proletarian democracy, to organize education, cadres etc.). That is why a political party is well fit to this purpose. Second thing is the class consciousness. It is not formed spontaneously, it rather requires systematic political education. Marxism is rather the scientific knowledge that one has to learn rather than the matter of bare experience. As the class struggle is going on spontaneously, its solution is given only by the scientific theory (ie. from "outside"). And both theoretical consideration and practical application of such theory are well established as a task of the political party. Therefore it is necessary not only for the proletarian organizations to develop, but also to make sure that their ideology is not compromised by the false consciousness (ie. towards social-democratic views). It is rather the ideological struggle - between bourgeoisie and communist party. This is why the political party is for - to carry on this fight.

[AK]

So, contrary to vanguard parties that will only supposedly act in the interest of the workers, political entities such as workers councils will always definitely act in their interest? Is that what you actually believe?
Workers councils will act in workers interests... because they're made up of bloody workers and will not gain special priveliges - unlike a vanguard.

@bie I recognise that class consciousness must be built. But by a vanguard? No, thanks. A different kind of organisation is much better.

[bie]

I recognise that class consciousness must be built. But by a vanguard? No, thanks. A different kind of organisation is much better.
What kind of organization?

[AK]

What kind of organization?
Dunno yet. But it has a function and that's all it needs. One could look to anarchist organisations for isnpiration. Maybe one big revolutionary union or something similar.

[Dire Helix]

Workers councils will act in workers interests... because they're made up of bloody workers and will not gain special priveliges - unlike a vanguard.

Yeah, right. Say that about the general coal miners strike in the USSR in 1989-1990.

But I admire your idealized view of workers and their organizations.

[pranabjyoti]

Dunno yet. But it has a function and that's all it needs. One could look to anarchist organisations for isnpiration. Maybe one big revolutionary union or something similar.
Kindly know it, show us the light by taking some action with fruitful results. We, in the meantime better try to build a vanguard party, which is far better tested option. And at present, our task is find a way so that it will remain as "workers party", not "peoples" i.e. petty-bourgeoisie party.

[bie]

Yeah, right. Say that about the general coal miners strike in the USSR in 1989-1990.

But I admire your idealized view of workers and their organizations.
The same with "Solidarity" movement in Poland. They pretended to act for "worker's self management" but actually backed up by CIA/IMF/UE were one of the driving vehicles of restoration of Manchester type capitalism in 1991.


not "peoples" i.e. petty-bourgeoisie party.
I understand the term "people" as working class and its allies: small and middle farmers, fishermen, young people, professionals etc. united against imperialism.

[AK]

Yeah, right. Say that about the general coal miners strike in the USSR in 1989-1990.

But I admire your idealized view of workers and their organizations.
Any power and authority the workers councils had was reduced a few years after the Bolsheviks came to power. You can't expect such repressed organisations to stay the same 70 years after they started to degrade.
I admire your idealised view of the party.

[bie]

Any power and authority the workers councils had was reduced a few years after the Bolsheviks came to power. By the end of the Soviet Union, workers councils were largely useless just another part of the bureaucracy.
I admire your idealised view of the party.
This is a popular myth. The power of workers and village council was not reduced anyhow, but - even extended with time. Eg.on the matter of local issues sielsoviets had almost unlimited authority. Since the mid 1930 village soviets (ap. 70 000)were also expected to play role in regional or even national policies. The problem was not the lack of powers but the lack of initiative and passiveness. The number of people participating in the administration actually increased with time (eg. in 1927 there was 50.2% of rural population taking part in the elections to councils, in 1934 - there was 85%, that counts for 91 mln of Soviet citizens). The whole organization of Soviet society was based on the pyramid of Soviets - Supreme Soviet, Oblast and Rayon Soviets etc.

[Chambered Word]

The problem was not the lack of powers but the lack of initiative and passiveness.

I guess workers were just lazy, that's why private capitalism was restored by Gorbachev. Hurf durf.

[Dire Helix]

Any power and authority the workers councils had was reduced a few years after the Bolsheviks came to power. You can't expect such repressed organisations to stay the same 70 years after they started to degrade.

Don`t lecture me on things you have no knowledge of. In 1989-1990 these "repressed organizations" organized a massive strike that paralyzed the coal mining industry and further intensified the economic problems of the USSR. In their list of demands coal miners expressed full support for Yeltsin`s liberal reforms(referring to them as "progressive") and called for the removal of communism from the status of the official state ideology. Also on the list of demands was a call for the Soviet government to start a construction of churches in mining cities.

Fast-forward to 1993 and the coal miners` support for Yeltsin and his reforms was already at a zero level and they were all lining up behind red banners. Only it was too late.


The same with "Solidarity" movement in Poland. They pretended to act for "worker's self management" but actually backed up by CIA/IMF/UE were one of the driving vehicles of restoration of Manchester type capitalism in 1991.

Yes, Solidarnosc is another good example of a workers movement being hijacked by the forces of reaction.

Also, speaking of the present day situation, the extreme right Jobbik party in Hungary seems to be getting a lot of support among the poorest of Hungarian workers. There goes Alpha Kappa`s theory that workers always know what`s best for them and that no revolutionary party is needed.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Kindly show us one example, where your said "Organisations, collectives, workers councils" have been able to bring revolution in anywhere in the world. I can give you several examples of the working class, acting as a class, "bringing revolution."

Paris, 1871
St. Louis, 1877
Russia, 1905
Russia, 1917
Turin, 1919
Bavaria, 1919
Shanghai, 1927
Spain, 1936
Hungary, 1956
France, 1968
Iran, 1978
Gwangju, 1980

In fact, everywhere the working class has independently made serious revolutionary advances and found itself in a need to organize society it has put together its own organs.


The Leninist ideology is THAT IDEOLOGY, WHICH BROUGHT "WORKERS STATE" INTO REALITY."Not ideology but necessity brings the masses into revolutionary motion." - Paul Mattick

The ultimate results of the October Revolution were nothing short of tragic. An authentic workers revolution was strangled, mangled and hijacked by petty-bourgeois misleaders out for their own interests.


At least do something better to show that it's either reactionary or "invalid".When the working class has made revolutionary moves on its own, it's biggest mistake was not being able to spread the struggle, in order to transform all of society worldwide and secure its victory. Conditions change; strategies and tactics can be modified.

The bureaucratic "socialist" regimes, however, succeeded in maintaining class divisions, wage labor and the exclusion of the working class from power. The nature of party apparatchiks, managers and secret police do not change.

Remember, it's better to fight for what you want and loose than to fight for what you don't want and get it.

[bie]

I guess workers were just lazy, that's why private capitalism was restored by Gorbachev. Hurf durf.
Don't you think that passiveness caused by false consciousness or even active participation in counterrevolution of the significant parts of the working class was more contributing to restoration of capitalism than "reducing power and authority the workers councils after Bolshevics came to power (in 1917)" than never actually happened?

...Hungary, 1956
You mean CIA sponsored coup? Why didn't you mention Poland 1970, 1981 and 1989? :)
I see that you have problems with distinguishing between revolution and counterrevolution. Is it because it doesn't fit into your simplified dogma?

I can give you several examples of the working class, acting as a class, "bringing revolution."
Actually none of this revolutions apart from Leninist 1917 Bolshevik revolution eventually succeeded..

An authentic workers revolution was strangled, mangled and hijacked by petty-bourgeois misleaders out for their own interests.
You mean that Boshevik party protected interests of small private industrialist, rich peasants and shop owners? This is just hilarious.

The bureaucratic "socialist" regimes, however, succeeded in maintaining class divisions, wage labor and the exclusion of the working class from power. The nature of party apparatchiks, managers and secret police do not change.
Should I understand that you do not recognize gains of the working class and peasants (electrification, mechanization of agriculture, working day, working conditions, employment, education, healthcare, childcare, sex equality, housing policies, cultural and scientific development etc etc etc) under the rule of Communist and Workers Parties?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yeah, right. Say that about the general coal miners strike in the USSR in 1989-1990.

But I admire your idealized view of workers and their organizations.

And this is the crux of the argument at hand.

Is the working class the only revolutionary class?

Must the liberation of the working class be the work of the working class itself?

Or is it as RedScare1917 and other petty-bourgeois leftists suggest that the working class is too stupid and reactionary to do so, thus requiring an all-knowing party to control things?

This is a dividing question.

"Citizen Marx has just been mentioned; he has perfectly understood the importance of this first congress, where there should be only working-class delegates; therefor he refused the delegateship he was offered in the General Council." - James Carter, Geneva Congress of the First International.

"...Victor Le Lubez ... asked if Karl Marx would suggest the name of someone to speak on behalf of the German Workers.' Marx himself was far too bourgeois to be eligible so he recommended the emigre tailor Johann Georg Eccarius..." - Karl Marx: A Life, Francis Wheen.

Where do you stand?

[bie]

Must the liberation of the working class be the work of the working class itself?
Of course and the Communist Party is nothing else than the working class itself.


the working class is too stupid and reactionary to do so, thus requiring an all-knowing party to control things
Lets put it this way: if working class can develop class consciousness itself and doesn't need any ideology nor political organization (ie. worker's party) - where is your revolution now? All the conditions are present: exploitation, slavery etc. Why there is no workers revolution in every capitalist country at the moment? We should be all living in communism for last 100 years!

[Honggweilo]

Workers councils will act in workers interests... because they're made up of bloody workers and will not gain special priveliges - unlike a vanguard.

@bie I recognise that class consciousness must be built. But by a vanguard? No, thanks. A different kind of organisation is much better.

Ignoring the fact the workers can be reactionairy, homophobic, religieous, sexist, and have petty bourgeois mentallity (wanting to become a self-made man on others backs, cultural hegemony). If councils start to ideologically restrict these tendencies to form, they will automaticaly act as some form of vanguard ( as syndicalists and platformist actually do). Class position and class conscienceness determines your ideas, class background will not automatically do that.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Don't you think that passiveness caused by false consciousness or even active participation in counterrevolution of the significant parts of the working class was more contributing to restoration of capitalism than "reducing power and authority the workers councils after Bolshevics came to power (in 1917)" than never actually happened?

Don't you think that the working class didn't defend the state because it wasn't theirs?

Of course not. For petty-bourgeois socialists the workers are nothing more than easily influenced backwards masses who lost sight of their shepherds in the Party.


You mean CIA sponsored coup? Why didn't you mention Poland 1970, 1981 and 1989?

Because there is a big difference between a imperialist-backed union like Solidarność and the establishment of workers councils.


You mean that Boshevik party protected interests of small private industrialist, rich peasants and shop owners? This is just hilarious.

I mean that what started as a workers' revolution was derailed, petty-bourgeois bureaucrats took power and the world's first petty-bourgeois socialist state was formed.


Actually none of this revolutions apart from Leninist 1917 Bolshevik revolution eventually succeeded..

Succeeded in what exactly?

Bringing the means of production under direct worker control? Eliminating wage slavery? Eliminating classes?

Those are the goals of proletarian revolution.

PS. The October Revolution wasn't "Leninist." The "Leninist" dogma was popularized after Lenin left politics.

PSS. The revolutionary struggles I listed obviously didn't succeed ultimately. I never said otherwise. Examples of workers "bringing revolution" were asked for. I delivered.

That's about all the time I have for this.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Of course and the Communist Party is nothing else than the working class itself.

:lol:

So Joseph Stalin was a wage laborer? Brezhnev? Kim and Kim Jr? Ceauşescu? Mao? Hoxha too? How about all of those managers, engineers and professionals? The secret police?


Lets put it this way: if working class can develop class consciousness itself and doesn't need any ideology nor political organization (ie. worker's party) - where is your revolution now? All the conditions are present: exploitation, slavery etc. Why there is no workers revolution in every capitalist country at the moment? We should be all living in communism for last 100 years!

One could throw the same argument back at you, asking "If the working class can't develop consciousness on its own and just needs a professional party to show them the way, why isn't there a workers' revolution in every capitalist country?" That is, if they wanted to construct a straw man.

The reality is that there have been several revolutionary workers' struggles in recent history. None succeeded. That's a result of material conditions, mistakes, petty-bourgeois socialist misleaders and a number of other things.

All previous workers' struggles have eventually failed. But we can learn from them. Strategies and tactics can be modified. And all the while capitalism continues to decline. There will be other chances.

Surely this record is preferable to one built on lies and deception, in which petty-bourgeois peddlers took power on promises to create a classless paradise and only delivered a slightly milder form of class divided society, with all of the wage labor and state repression we've come to know and hate.

[bie]

Don't you think that the working class didn't defend the state because it wasn't theirs?
Of course it was theirs. It was even stated in the constitution. Do you think that they wanted capitalism because it will be theirs? Or because they were told (and some of them believed) that everyone can be a millionaire?

I mean that what started as a workers' revolution was derailed, petty-bourgeois bureaucrats took power and the world's first petty-bourgeois socialist state was formed.
Hmm.. how do you back up your vision of petty-bourgeoisie USSR? I remind that petty-
bourgeoisie refers to small private owners.. This is faaar off the reality..

[AK]

Ignoring the fact the workers can be reactionairy, homophobic, religieous, sexist, and have petty bourgeois mentallity (wanting to become a self-made man on others backs, cultural hegemony). If councils start to ideologically restrict these tendencies to form, they will automaticaly act as some form of vanguard ( as syndicalists and platformist actually do). Class position and class conscienceness determines your ideas, class background will not automatically do that.
Workers councils form when there is class consciousness. It's not like workers councils spontaneously appear and the workers just have to deal with it in their current sexist, homophobic, racist, nationalist ways.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Ignoring the fact the workers can be reactionairy, homophobic, religieous, sexist, and have petty bourgeois mentallity (wanting to become a self-made man on others backs, cultural hegemony). If councils start to ideologically restrict these tendencies to form, they will automaticaly act as some form of vanguard ( as syndicalists and platformist actually do). Class position and class conscienceness determines your ideas, class background will not automatically do that.

"We stand for the point of view of the construction of the proletarian society by the class creativity of the workers themselves... We proceed from trust for the class instinct, to the active class initiative of the proletariat. It cannot be otherwise. If the proletariat does not know how to create the necessary prerequisites for socialist organisation of labour, no-one can do this for it and no-one can compel it to do this... Socialism and socialist organisation must be set up by the proletariat itself, or they will not be set up at all..." (‘On the Building of Socialism', Kommunist n°2, April 1918).

Or, to put it more succinctly, "The emancipation of the working class must be the act of the workers themselves."

[bie]

So Joseph Stalin was a wage laborer? Brezhnev? Kim and Kim Jr? Ceauşescu? Mao? Hoxha too? How about all of those managers, engineers and professionals? The secret police?
Yes, they all received wages as the payment for they service. None of the lived from the profit of his private capital. I think you confuse the wage labourer with manual worker.


If the working class can't develop consciousness on its own and just needs a professional party to show them the way, why isn't there a workers' revolution in every capitalist country?"
And this would be actually a good question. There is no revolution in the capitalist world because Workers and Communist parties are too weak and they use continuously undermined and weakened by open (righist) and subversive (lefitist) bourgeoisie actions.

All previous workers' struggles have eventually failed. But we can learn from them. Strategies and tactics can be modified. And all the while capitalism continues to decline. There will be other chances.
I see that we are coming to completely different conclusions. The Bolshevik revolution did not fail. It showed the way to the workers how to successfully organize the society. It had a huge range of achievements that we should learn from. And the reason for the victory of the counterrevolution are the opportunist trends within the ruling Party that actually may cause the loss of the proletarian character of the working class organization.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Of course it was theirs. It was even stated in the constitution.

Well in that case :lol:


Do you think that they wanted capitalism because it will be theirs?

I think the workers in the USSR were largely indifferent, which is why the destruction of the state was relatively peaceful.


Hmm.. how do you back up your vision of petty-bourgeoisie USSR? I remind that petty-
bourgeoisie refers to small private owners.. This is faaar off the reality..

The "traditional" petty-bourgeoisie is made up of small business owners. The modern petty-bourgeoisie is made up of managers, bureaucrats, judges, cops, etc.

"In countries where modern civilization has become fully developed, a new class of petty-bourgeois has been formed, floating between the proletariat and bourgeoisie, and ever renewing itself as a supplementary part of bourgeois society. The individual members of this class, however, are being constantly hurled down into the proletariat by the action of competition, and, as modern industry develops, they even see the moment approaching when they will completely disappear as an independent section of modern society, to be replaced in manufactures, agriculture and commerce, by overlookers, bailiffs and shopmen." - Manifesto of the Communist Party

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yes, they all receive wages as the payment for they service.So do CEOs, army generals and prison wardens.


None of the lived from the profit of his private capital.Neither do army generals or prison wardens.


I think you confuse the wage labourer with manual worker.I think you're just confused.

[AK]

The "traditional" petty-bourgeoisie is made up of small business owners. The modern petty-bourgeoisie is made up of managers, bureaucrats, judges, cops, etc.

"In countries where modern civilization has become fully developed, a new class of petty-bourgeois has been formed, floating between the proletariat and bourgeoisie, and ever renewing itself as a supplementary part of bourgeois society. The individual members of this class, however, are being constantly hurled down into the proletariat by the action of competition, and, as modern industry develops, they even see the moment approaching when they will completely disappear as an independent section of modern society, to be replaced in manufactures, agriculture and commerce, by overlookers, bailiffs and shopmen." - Manifesto of the Communist Party
So what this is saying is that the petit-bourgeoisie are essentially dead. Yet, when I looked out on the street, I saw lots of small businesses that had been successful for their duration of existence and showed no signs of dying.

To say that a new class is replacing the old one at such a tremendous rate is a bit of a misnomer. The bureaucratic hierarchy of capitalism has always existed, but it is only in the last century that it has started to grow faster. But new small businesses seem to prop up all over the place, so there's still the petit-bourgeoisie as we knew it.

[bie]

The "traditional" petty-bourgeoisie is made up of small business owners. The modern petty-bourgeoisie is made up of managers, bureaucrats, judges, cops, etc.
Wow, and who made this distinction? What happened to "traditional petty bourgeoisie then"? :) Again, you confuse a social class with a professional group. Managers or white collar workers can be under the influence of petit-bouegeoise ideology. But at the same time they receive payment for their labour, therefore they are wage workers.

So do CEOs, army generals and prison wardens.
So what?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

No. He was saying that the petty-bourgeoisie is an opportunist class that maneuvers between the main classes in modern society: the bourgeoisie and the proletariat.

As capitalism solidified, the petty-bourgeoisie looked for new ways to preserve its position of privilege (i.e. "ever renewing itself as a supplementary part of bourgeois society"). Small businesses were and are constantly destroyed by their inability to compete with capitalist enterprises. But rather than join the ranks of the working class, the petty-bourgeoisie found new positions for itself in the capitalist state. This worked out perfectly as the bourgeoisie was increasingly trying to distance itself from direct control of the means of production. Thus we arrive at the present, with massive state apparatuses manned by countless bureaucrats, huge management teams, specialists, consultants, inflated police forces and prison systems, etc.

[AK]

Wow, and who made this distinction? What happened to "traditional petty bourgeoisie then"? :) Again, you confuse a social class with a professional group. Managers or white collar workers can be under the influence of petit-bouegeoise ideology. But at the same time they receive payment for their labour, therefore they are wage workers.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/pannekoe/1909/new-middle-class.htm
I actually got a bit confused reading it, but it mentions some points.

For me, though, managers and the like do not constitute a separate class. But, rather, part of an overpaid and unncecessary bureaucracy that is hostile to the workers' movement and exists only to maintain capitalism without the Bourgeoisie getting off their asses.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Wow, and who made this distinction? What happened to "traditional petty bourgeoisie then"? http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_smile.gif Again, you confuse a social class with a professional group.

The traditional petty-bourgeoisie had and has no future. The modern petty-bourgeoisie is an example of the opportunistic petty-bourgeoisie prolonging its existence as a class.


Managers or white collar workers can be under the influence of petit-bouegeoise ideology. But at the same time they receive payment for their labour, therefore they are wage workers.

This is dribble. Under this logic managers that control means of production, commissioned militant officers that command soldiers and oversee wars, wardens who run prisons, CIA and FBI agents, judges and even the president are proletarians.

There's more to belonging to the working class than getting a paycheck. It's your relation to the means of production that determine your class. The working class is defined as the class of people that have no control over the means of production and thus have to sell their labor to those who do to survive. Workers are exploited. They create more value than what they receive back in the form of wages.

This sort of muddying of the waters is common to petty-bourgeois socialism, which blurs or ignores class divisions all together because of what they mean. Mentions of class as disappeared in favor of calls to a classless "people." The role of the proletariat, "the only revolutionary class," are turned into side notes or disappeared all together.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

For me, though, managers and the like do not constitute a separate class. But, rather, part of an overpaid and unncecessary bureaucracy that is hostile to the workers' movement and exists only to maintain capitalism without the Bourgeoisie getting off their asses.

There are managers and there are "managers." A "shift manager" at a restaurant who makes 10 cents more an hour than his fellow workers, has no control over what happens at work, has no ability to hire or fire and is only separated from the "associates" in that he has a few added responsibilities is a worker.

As you say, real managers have control over the means of production. They oversee the process of production. They have the power to hire and fire. They are not workers. They are petty-bourgeois bureaucrats. "Overlookers."

[bie]

This is dribble. Under this logic managers that control means of production, commissioned militant officers that command soldiers and oversee wars, wardens who run prisons, CIA and FBI agents, judges and even the president are proletarians.
No they are not proletarians. And they are not bourgeoisie nor petit bourgeoisie, even if they serve one of those classes.

The modern petty-bourgeoisie is an example of the opportunistic petty-bourgeoisie prolonging its existence as a class.
How can they prolong its "existence as a class" if they have no material basis to do so? Maybe to discuss that we will move to a different thread? We are far off from the topic.

[Dire Helix]

The ultimate results of the October Revolution were nothing short of tragic. An authentic workers revolution was strangled, mangled and hijacked by petty-bourgeois misleaders out for their own interests.

How can an "authentic workers revolution" be hijacked by "petty-bourgeois misleaders" if the working class is always aware of its revolutionary role and doesn`t need any vanguard party to tell them what to do?


I think the workers in the USSR were largely indifferent, which is why the destruction of the state was relatively peaceful.

When for six years straight the state TV propaganda tells you the revolution was a mistake, that people would be better off if it didn`t happen, that capitalism will give you a lot more and that your collectivist ideals are shit, most would become indifferent.

That and the general naivety of Soviet people. After decades of socialism you start taking things like guaranteed employment and housing, free health care and education, generous welfare benefits and largely symbolic taxes for granted. Nobody thought of all this as something that was the result of the socialist construction, but instead something that will always exist regardless of the ideology.

[bie]

When for six years straight the state TV propaganda tells you the revolution was a mistake, that people would be better off if it didn`t happen, that capitalism will give you a lot more and that your collectivist ideals are shit, most would become indifferent.

That and the general naivety of Soviet people. After decades of socialism you start taking things like guaranteed employment and housing, free health care and education, generous welfare benefits and largely symbolic taxes for granted. Nobody thought of all this as something that was the result of the socialist construction, but instead something that will always exist regardless of the ideology.
It was similar in Poland. On one hand in TV in the 1980s soup operas like "Dynasty" had huge popularity, making workers think that this is the real picture of the capitalist world! And the all that have been told about the Western world are communist lies, "propaganda". And that the Uncle Sam will bring the prosperity as soon as they kick out evil communists. On the other hand catholic clergy openly incited the rebellion by waking up religious and national sentiments. And it was all made in the atmosphere of the general crisis of materialist world view. It was common to think that the country will equalize with Western Germany in about 20 years! This is what they were told by liberal politicians.

[bie]

And coming back to the subject - this is KKE stance of proletarian democracy in socialism:


The revolutionary workers’ power will be based on the institutions that will be borne by the revolutionary struggle of the working class and its allies. The bourgeois parliamentary institutions will be replaced by the new institutions of workers’ power

The nuclei of working class state-power will be the units of production, workplaces, through which working class and social control of the administration will be exercised. The workers’ representatives to the organs of state-power will be elected (and when necessary recalled) from these “communities of production”. Young people that are not engaged in production (e.g. students in higher education) will take part in the election of representatives through the educational units. The participation of non-working women and retirees will take place in a special fashion, utilizing mass organization and the units providing special services.

The exercise of workers’ and social control will be institutionalised and safeguarded in practice, as will the unhindered criticism of decisions and practices which obstruct socialist construction, the unhindered denunciation of subjective arbitrariness and bureaucratic behaviour of officials, and other negative phenomena and deviations from socialist-communist principles.

from: http://inter.kke.gr/News/2009news/18congres-resolution-2nd

[Lyev]

In fact, everywhere the working class has independently made serious revolutionary advances and found itself in a need to organize society it has put together its own organs.

"Not ideology but necessity brings the masses into revolutionary motion." - Paul MattickSo do proletarians automatically have imbued in them a staunch socialist-consciousness, from birth? I realise that, with the added impetuses of the increasing economic instability of capitalism, and the socialization of labour, that the work of communists is made much easier. I also think Lenin said that proletarians are naturally drawn, so to speak, to socialist ideas. But, without trying to hand a revolution down to the working class, or give socialism from above, which is the last thing we want to do, I believe that a vanguard of sorts is necessary for the furtherance of the proletariat's political consciousness, and also to organise. As I have said, people are definitely angry at the current system: it just needs to methodically channeled. I might be interpreting your meaning totally wrong here, and sorry if I am, but if the working class can rise up against the bourgeoisie all on there own, and create a socialist society afterwards, then doesn't this render the work of communists and Marxists totally null and superfluous?

[4 Leaf Clover]

This is exactly what's wrong with anarchists, it's all about violence, tear this down, always challenge the State even when they can't beat it (And know they can't beat it). We don't build movements and working class-consciousness by rushing parliament when we don't have the strength to defeat them. Random malatoves thrown into banks and random acts of unorganized violence is not the way to defeat globalization, the national or international ruling class, etc. Venting anger for the sake of venting anger(even if it's well deserved) does not accomplish much if unorganized.

which is otherwise called being infantile

KKE is a party which argues for socialism , and they have the support as shown on the Protests

everything other is Tendencies war wich i suggest you to avoid

[this is an invasion]

Yeah, right. Say that about the general coal miners strike in the USSR in 1989-1990.

But I admire your idealized view of workers and their organizations.

I love "communists" who talk shit on workers.

[Spawn of Stalin]

"Talking shit" on workers is perfectly fine if what they are doing is utterly reactionary...should we refrain from talking shit on the EDL simply because they are workers? If what they are doing is wrong, we call them out on it, and we try to educate them and bring them over to our side.

[bie]

I love "communists" who talk shit on workers.

Yes, telling workers to organize, self-educate, get together to fight towards the revolution that lead towards building the classless society in which their oppression will be over is a really piece of shit...

[Dire Helix]

I love "communists" who talk shit on workers.

I guess I should`ve saluted them on supporting reforms that were clearly aimed against their class. My bad.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Indeed, we support the workers, but the very fact that they are workers does not grant them immunity to criticism, and it does not grant them some God-like status, and anyone who disagrees is a workerist fool.

[the last donut of the night]

Why are we referring to ourselves as distinct from workers? Yes, some communists are born out of the proletariat class, but I don't think the majority should be like that.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Because many "communists" and "socialists" have never and will never belong to the proletariat.

[AK]

The fact is, the workers councils that the workers themselves create in revolutionary situations are the true forms of workers organisation and democracy.

"Talking shit" on workers is perfectly fine if what they are doing is utterly reactionary...should we refrain from talking shit on the EDL simply because they are workers? If what they are doing is wrong, we call them out on it, and we try to educate them and bring them over to our side.
The fucking EDL aren't class conscious. They don't fight for communism. They fight for segregation and discrimination.
Talking shit on nationalists is fine by me.

Indeed, we support the workers, but the very fact that they are workers does not grant them immunity to criticism, and it does not grant them some God-like status, and anyone who disagrees is a workerist fool.
Then why the fuck do you give the party a God-like status?
"The party is the shit, it will solve all my problems; from wage labour and exploitation to migraines and period pains."

[Honggweilo]

Because many "communists" and "socialists" have never and will never belong to the proletariat.

speak for yourself, stop turning this into some ridiculous "more prolier then thou" lifestylist battle

[bie]

Why are we referring to ourselves as distinct from workers? Yes, some communists are born out of the proletariat class, but I don't think the majority should be like that.
True. But not all the workers are communists and not all communists are workers (eg. Marx & Engels). (it refers to all ideologies). It is just a different level of distinction - "communist" refers to the ideology/science, "worker" - to the position is the process of production. The link is however that communism - literally marxism-leninism is the ideology that represents interests and aims of the workers, so in that sense it is not distinct.

[this is an invasion]

A working class revolution must be carried out by the working class, not some organ that exists outside of the class or is created outside of the class.

I'm so tired of vanguardists that look at and refer to working people as if they were children or sheep that need to be herded and taken care of. Fuck that. No one ever said that working people were perfect, or else we'd already be living communism right now. However, to say or imply working people aren't able to liberate themselves is downright reactionary, and has no place in revolutionary working class politics. Especially given the history of recuperation that plagues vanguardist groups, and the sometimes downright reactionary actions undertaken by such vanguardist groups.

The representative of the working class becomes the enemy of the working class.

[Spawn of Stalin]

The fucking EDL aren't class conscious. They don't fight for communism. They fight for segregation and discrimination.
Talking shit on nationalists is fine by me.

Most workers are not class conscious either so I don't really see what you're getting at here. It doesn't matter whether they are fighting for discrimination or the restoration of capitalism in the USSR, when their actions are reactionary it is up to us to point that out and to make them see why these things are reactionary.


Then why the fuck do you give the party a God-like status?

I don't, I just think it's brilliant that the workers in Greece have something they can really get behind, an organisation which is truly representative of them, and one which will, as far as I can see, fight for what is good for the workers.


"The party is the shit, it will solve all my problems; from wage labour and exploitation to migraines and period pains."

I don't remember saying this.

[bie]

I'm so tired of vanguardists that look at and refer to working people as if they were children or sheep that need to be herded and taken care of. Fuck that. No one ever said that working people were perfect, or else we'd already be living communism right now. However, to say or imply working people aren't able to liberate themselves is downright reactionary, and has no place in revolutionary working class politics. Especially given the history of recuperation that plagues vanguardist groups, and the sometimes downright reactionary actions undertaken by such vanguardist groups.

This is a reactionary bullshit that means after all: don't do anything just wait. And this is exactly what bourgeoisie want us to do.

[Spawn of Stalin]

A working class revolution must be carried out by the working class, not some organ that exists outside of the class or is created outside of the class.

It "must" be carried out by the working class? I'd probably agree with you if your definition of the working class was different (inclusive of the Communist Party), instead you just make it sound like some religious prophecy or something


I'm so tired of vanguardists that look at and refer to working people as if they were children or sheep that need to be herded and taken care of. Fuck that.

Leninists do not treat working people like children, we are simply aware of the fact that nobody is born class conscious, and that people need to be educated to realise why socialism is a necessity. The people you see on the KKE and PAME marches are either educated or in the process of being educated, they are class conscious workers, go back a few pages and watch the videos posted, what you see is working class people getting out on the streets in their masses and demanding revolutionary change...not bureaucrats, not the "new ruling class", but normal people with normal jobs. Hence, "[the Communist Party has] no interests separate and apart from those of the proletariat as a whole." The KKE is merely a section of the working class, the most advanced and educated and class conscious section.


No one ever said that working people were perfect, or else we'd already be living communism right now. However, to say or imply working people aren't able to liberate themselves is downright reactionary, and has no place in revolutionary working class politics.

How do you suggest the working class becomes class conscious and creates a revolution without a party to guide them? In what instance has this ever happened and ever worked out in the long term? When are you going to stop treating the working class like idiots? Expecting them to wait forever for a revolution to happen? Like I said, workers are not born class conscious, no Communist party = no legitimate opposition to the ruling class.


Especially given the history of recuperation that plagues vanguardist groups, and the sometimes downright reactionary actions undertaken by such vanguardist groups.

For example?


The representative of the working class becomes the enemy of the working class.

What a load of crap...it sounds good, I'll give you that, but in terms of content, this statement is absolute horseshit.

[this is an invasion]

This is a reactionary bullshit that means after all: don't do anything just wait. And this is exactly what bourgeoisie want us to do.

Uh, what? When did I say any of that? I believe the exact opposite. The working class needs to organize itself and attack. As a working class revolutionary, this is what I'm interested in. Not leading.

It's funny though, through out history, it's often Communist Parties and vanguardist organizations that want the working class to wait. This has happened more than once, and will continue to happen. It seems that when there is a working class insurrection, statist/vanguardists will side with the current order if they are not in a position of power or control over the uprising. Both aspects of this, the issue of wanting control over the working class, and the issue of siding with the current order when not in a position of control, is problematic to say the least.

[bie]

I believe the exact opposite. The working class needs to organize itself and attack. As a working class revolutionary, this is what I'm interested in. Not leading.
Ok, so why don't you just go home and wait until it organize itself? You mean we should take it easy

[Spawn of Stalin]

Uh, what? When did I say any of that? I believe the exact opposite. The working class needs to organize itself and attack. As a working class revolutionary, this is what I'm interested in. Not leading.

If this is such a superior tactic, why hasn't it happened yet?


It's funny though, through out history, it's often Communist Parties and vanguardist organizations that want the working class to wait. This has happened more than once, and will continue to happen.

Yes, Leninists request that the working class waits until the conditions are correct, while anarchists and other libertarian types ask the working class to either wait forever, or to just revolt outright with no guidance from the educated section of the class, and very few predetermined aims or goals, other than "smashing the state", neither of which the working class can or will identify with.

[this is an invasion]

It "must" be carried out by the working class? I'd probably agree with you if your definition of the working class was different (inclusive of the Communist Party), instead you just make it sound like some religious prophecy or something lol




Leninists do not treat working people like children, we are simply aware of the fact that nobody is born class conscious, and that people need to be educated to realise why socialism is a necessity. The people you see on the KKE and PAME marches are either educated or in the process of being educated, they are class conscious workers, go back a few pages and watch the videos posted, what you see is working class people getting out on the streets in their masses and demanding revolutionary change...not bureaucrats, not the "new ruling class", but normal people with normal jobs. Hence, "[the Communist Party has] no interests separate and apart from those of the proletariat as a whole." The KKE is merely a section of the working class, the most advanced and educated and class conscious section.
The bottom ranks of Communist Parties are often working people that have been suckered into believing the bullshit of Party bureaucrats. If a revolution does kick off in Greece, hopefully these people will see the true interests of the Party, and resist it.



How do you suggest the working class becomes class conscious and creates a revolution without a party to guide them? In what instance has this ever happened and ever worked out in the long term? When are you going to stop treating the working class like idiots? Expecting them to wait forever for a revolution to happen? Like I said, workers are not born class conscious, no Communist party = no legitimate opposition to the ruling class. lol when has a revolution WITH a party ever worked out? Last I checked, all of the great revolutions you vanguardists are always up on have failed to get rid of capitalism, and all of the insurrections that have had revolutionary potential that weren't led by vanguardists have been recuperated.

I have never once implied that the we should wait for revolution. I believe the exact opposite, as I have already stated.




For example? Soviet backed Communists in Spain during the Civil War, Communist Party of France during 68, Communist Party of Greece during the 70s.




What a load of crap...it sounds good, I'll give you that, but in terms of content, this statement is absolute horseshit.
lol k

[bie]

Basically it is nothing else but attacking people doing serious organizational work and proposing instead doing nothing and waiting forever. Reactionary ideology and an example of subversive action.

[this is an invasion]

Ok, so why don't you just go home and wait until it organize itself? You mean we should take it easy

You're clearly unintelligent.

My friends and I have already organized ourselves. We agitate within our community, and encourage others to organize themselves. We work closely with several groups that share similar politics to ours that have organized themselves.

[this is an invasion]

If this is such a superior tactic, why hasn't it happened yet? Why hasn't a vanguard worked yet, bro?




Yes, Leninists request that the working class waits until the conditions are correct, while anarchists and other libertarian types ask the working class to either wait forever, or to just revolt outright with no guidance from the educated section of the class, and very few predetermined aims or goals, other than "smashing the state", neither of which the working class can or will identify with.

Nope.

[bie]

You're clearly unintelligent.

My friends and I have already organized ourselves. We agitate within our community, and encourage others to organize themselves. We work closely with several groups that share similar politics to ours that have organized themselves.
I am really proud of you. You must now only - wait - until the rest will spontaneously
organize. Don't forget that the working class do not need your "politics". Good luck!

[this is an invasion]

Basically it is nothing else but attacking people doing serious organizational work and proposing instead doing nothing and waiting forever. Reactionary ideology and an example of subversive action.

You should probably keep your mouth shut on things you don't know about.

Jus' sayin'.


P.s. [email protected] "serious organizational" work. All you Leninists ever do is front building. Ya'll are worse than critical mass marches.

[this is an invasion]

I am really proud of you. You must now only - wait - until the rest will spontaneously
organize. Don't forget that the working class do not need your "politics". Good luck!

We continue to do actions and put out propaganda.

Obviously, there is an aspect of waiting that we all must do. But the difference is that we actively seek to exploit tensions to create potentially revolutionary situations.

[bie]

You should probably keep your mouth shut on things you don't know about
I will recommend you to return to your waiting for the working class to organize and not to stick your head into a politics you don't understand.

We continue to do actions and put out propaganda.
And this is a clear hypocrisy because you act as a vanguard at this stage.

[this is an invasion]

I will recommend you to return to your waiting for the working class to organize and not to stick your head into a politics you don't understand.

You are so stupid.

If that's all you can say to me in reply to the things I've said, then I suppose we are done here.

[this is an invasion]

And this is a clear hypocrisy because you act as a vanguard at this stage.

nah. We don't lead or organize anyone other than ourselves under our "banner." We are more similar to a gang.

[bie]

We don't lead or organize anyone other than ourselves under our "banner."
I should speak for myself but I don't think that we organize anyone else then ourselves under our "banner" either. I don't really understand what is your activity different from ordinary vanguardism.

[Spawn of Stalin]

The bottom ranks of Communist Parties are often working people that have been suckered into believing the bullshit of Party bureaucrats.

Okay, so Leninists brainwash workers, source?


I have never once implied that the we should wait for revolution. I believe the exact opposite, as I have already stated.

Okay, so you are in support of revolution, that much we can agree on, I am with you 100%. But unfortunately, simply being for revolution is not good enough, a clear strategy is needed, something which most anti-Leninists lack, unless you can tell me otherwise.


Why hasn't a vanguard worked yet, bro?

We could argue all day about whether or not vanguard revolutions have "worked", but at least they have existed, brought about clear social and economic change, and remained sustainable for a decent length of time...that is unless you consider the nine days the Paris Commune existed for to be a decent length of time. Yes, I would definitely say that both the Russian and Chinese revolutions "worked", because although today Russians and eastern Europeans live under absolute capitalism, and the Chinese have Dengism, life is definitely better for everyone.

[Spawn of Stalin]

nah. We don't lead or organize anyone other than ourselves under our "banner." We are more similar to a gang.

This is an inspiring example of great revolutionary activity..."Don't join the bureaucratic Communist Party...join our gang instead!"

Seriously, where do I sign up?

[bie]

I am sure that every worker wants his kid to join anarchist gang.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

nah. We don't lead or organize anyone other than ourselves under our "banner." We are more similar to a gang.
Obviously has no clue how a real gang is organized(Or at least a successful one).

[AK]

Most workers are not class conscious either so I don't really see what you're getting at here. It doesn't matter whether they are fighting for discrimination or the restoration of capitalism in the USSR, when their actions are reactionary it is up to us to point that out and to make them see why these things are reactionary.
You were talking specifically about the EDL. Don't try to say that I hate workers that aren't class conscious. Nationalists can be won to the side of the workers' cause, but hardcore nationalists are tougher nuts to crack.


I don't, I just think it's brilliant that the workers in Greece have something they can really get behind, an organisation which is truly representative of them, and one which will, as far as I can see, fight for what is good for the workers.
Workers musn't fight behind the banner of a party, they must fight for themselves and not for the benefit of a vanguard - which is what seems to be the end result for the vanguard.


I don't remember saying this.
Ikr.


It "must" be carried out by the working class? I'd probably agree with you if your definition of the working class was different (inclusive of the Communist Party), instead you just make it sound like some religious prophecy or something

Leninists do not treat working people like children, we are simply aware of the fact that nobody is born class conscious, and that people need to be educated to realise why socialism is a necessity. The people you see on the KKE and PAME marches are either educated or in the process of being educated, they are class conscious workers, go back a few pages and watch the videos posted, what you see is working class people getting out on the streets in their masses and demanding revolutionary change...not bureaucrats, not the "new ruling class", but normal people with normal jobs. Hence, "[the Communist Party has] no interests separate and apart from those of the proletariat as a whole." The KKE is merely a section of the working class, the most advanced and educated and class conscious section.

How do you suggest the working class becomes class conscious and creates a revolution without a party to guide them? In what instance has this ever happened and ever worked out in the long term? When are you going to stop treating the working class like idiots? Expecting them to wait forever for a revolution to happen? Like I said, workers are not born class conscious, no Communist party = no legitimate opposition to the ruling class.
Parties aren't the only organ that can spawn class consciousness. People need to realise that the party and the revolutionary class are different entities.


If this is such a superior tactic, why hasn't it happened yet?
Have you been living under a rock? Nearly every single communist action and party since the rise of the Soviet Union to a superpower status has been funded by the USSR, etc.

Workers are disillusioned by the party and the promises it makes. It helps when your party is getting substantial funding in order to become the most successful organisation to supposedly organise for a revolution.


And this is a clear hypocrisy because you act as a vanguard at this stage.
His organisation agitates the working class whereas a vanguard seeks to place itself in control of the state post-revolution and centralise power and authority on itself.

[Honggweilo]

can someone please use some administrative actions against this off-topic shallow "lol vanguard, lol stalinst" flaming? this isnt learning. Lets get back to the topic at hand, the KKE.


Have you been living under a rock? Nearly every single communist action and party since the rise of the Soviet Union to a superpower status has been funded by the USSR, etc.
Orly? most CP's never seen a dime during the cold war, also because of the criminalization of foreign funding in most countries. Maybe people, ya k'now, actually supported parties and their mass movements. And ofcourse parties like the KKE are still funded by "putin's stalinist gas money", instead of funding itself since their break with eurocommunism in the late 80's. :rolleyes:

[AK]

can someone please use some administrative actions against this off-topic shallow "lol vanguard, lol stalinst" flaming? this isnt learning. Lets get back to the topic at hand, the KKE.

Orly? most CP's never seen a dime during the cold war, also because of the criminalization of foreign funding in most countries. Maybe people, ya k'now, actually supported parties and their mass movements. And ofcourse parties like the KKE are still funded by "putin's stalinist gas money", instead of funding itself since their break with eurocommunism in the late 80's. :rolleyes:
Maybe the reason why there was a surge in the number of parties was that they looked to the more successful parties as inspiration - generally the few that received outside funding. Maybe the reason why non-Soviet-funded CPs had considerable membership in the cold war was because people thought that the party they joined would be a successful one like the Soviet-funded ones, or because the revolutionary left political scene was dominated by parties.

[Honggweilo]

Maybe the reason why there was a surge in the number of parties was that they looked to the more successful parties as inspiration - generally the few that received outside funding. Maybe the reason why non-Soviet-funded CPs had considerable membership in the cold war was because people thought that the party they joined would be a successful one like the Soviet-funded ones, or because the revolutionary left political scene was dominated by parties.

You're just pulling assumptions out of your ass right now. Maybe they dominated the left because they actually we're rooted in the working class? or is that to much to assume. The ammount of butthurt today is tremendous. If you want to attack the KKE on its policies, fine. But stop drawing correlations between the KKE and some bigotted presumtions from the past if you cant back them up.

[Spawn of Stalin]

You were talking specifically about the EDL. Don't try to say that I hate workers that aren't class conscious. Nationalists can be won to the side of the workers' cause, but hardcore nationalists are tougher nuts to crack.

Oh don't worry, I'm not accusing you of hating anyone. I am just of the opinion that if we are to revolutionise the working class we cannot ignore the reactionary mistakes they make.


Workers musn't fight behind the banner of a party, they must fight for themselves and not for the benefit of a vanguard - which is what seems to be the end result for the vanguard.

Why can't they fight under the banner of the party? If the party is something which genuinely fights for the interests of the working class the I see no harm at all. And this is certainly something the KKE appear to be doing - they have a good, solid platform and program, a solid history of working class struggles, organic links to other past socialist revolutions, and a huge amount of support from the workers.


Parties aren't the only organ that can spawn class consciousness. People need to realise that the party and the revolutionary class are different entities.

I agree with both of these points, however I would probably argue that most revolutionary workers belong to a party in some way shape or form, and at the moment that party is most likely to be the KKE.


Have you been living under a rock? Nearly every single communist action and party since the rise of the Soviet Union to a superpower status has been funded by the USSR, etc.

I have seen little evidence to suggest this is true and to be frank even if it were true I would be in support of it anyway.


Workers are disillusioned by the party and the promises it makes. It helps when your party is getting substantial funding in order to become the most successful organisation to supposedly organise for a revolution.

And who is the KKE receiving this substantial funding from? Other than the workers through membership dues, etc.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Maybe the reason why there was a surge in the number of parties was that they looked to the more successful parties as inspiration - generally the few that received outside funding. Maybe the reason why non-Soviet-funded CPs had considerable membership in the cold war was because people thought that the party they joined would be a successful one like the Soviet-funded ones, or because the revolutionary left political scene was dominated by parties.

Or perhaps they just had faith in what the parties were capable of achieving. I'll admit that there have been some bloody reactionary parties in the past who have taken advantage of the working class for their own ends, but don't make excuses for the workers who join any and all Leninist parties, they do so because they have free will, and more importantly because they believe in the party and in Leninism.

[AK]

Or perhaps they just had faith in what the parties were capable of achieving. I'll admit that there have been some bloody reactionary parties in the past who have taken advantage of the working class for their own ends, but don't make excuses for the workers who join any and all Leninist parties, they do so because they have free will, and more importantly because they believe in the party and in Leninism.
I hate workers now? I oppose the concept of a vanguard party, not the working class.

[Delenda Carthago]

your beloved party lost 0,5% on the univercities and technical schools while EAAK("leftist" parties combination)was the only party that kept its power.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I hate workers now? I oppose the concept of a vanguard party, not the working class.

As I stated here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1756193&postcount=108), I'm not accusing you of hating workers, stop obsessing over false accusations/assumptions. Yes, you oppose the concept of a vanguard party, this much is clear, but what is also clear is that the international working class do not.

[AK]

As I stated here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1756193&postcount=108), I'm not accusing you of hating workers, stop obsessing over false accusations/assumptions. Yes, you oppose the concept of a vanguard party, this much is clear, but what is also clear is that the international working class do not.
Ah, sorry, I misinterpreted your last post.
Mk, let's end the debate here:


I oppose the concept of a vanguard
You endorse it
The international working class, for the time being, does not oppose a vanguard
My position is that workers need to be educated that there are alternatives to such

And we'll leave it there - because this petty arguing isn't acheiving anything.

[Dire Helix]

My position is that workers need to be educated that there are alternatives to such

Wouldn`t those in charge of the educational process be technically considered a vanguard?

[Omi]

No, because anarchist organisations don't claim authority over the workers movement that spawns from the organising and agitating these organisations do. This is the difference. Vanguards organise to the benefit of the vanguard itself, we organise to the benefit of all those who partake in the struggle, whether we have the same tactics and ideological line or not. This is why we find much less sectarianism in anarchist circles, (at least against other anarchists) and not as many insertnamehere-isms.

[Charles Xavier]

No, because anarchist organisations don't claim authority over the workers movement that spawns from the organising and agitating these organisations do. This is the difference. Vanguards organise to the benefit of the vanguard itself, we organise to the benefit of all those who partake in the struggle, whether we have the same tactics and ideological line or not. This is why we find much less sectarianism in anarchist circles, (at least against other anarchists) and not as many insertnamehere-isms.


I find sectarianism much more acute in anarchist circles. People refusing to world with each other for the most frivilious reasons. This person eats meat. This person ran in an election. This person doesn't like modern art. This person works for a living, this person doesn't buy organic fair trade coffee from South American farmers. This person wears Nike. etc etc. There are sane anarchists too, but there is a truckload of sectarianism, in the Anarchist movement.

[Omi]

I find sectarianism much more acute in anarchist circles. People refusing to world with each other for the most frivilious reasons. This person eats meat. This person ran in an election. This person doesn't like modern art. This person works for a living, this person doesn't buy organic fair trade coffee from South American farmers. This person wears Nike. etc etc. There are sane anarchists too, but there is a truckload of sectarianism, in the Anarchist movement.

I don't know about the situation in Canada, but this is far from anything I have experienced in anarchist circles.

[bricolage]

I find sectarianism much more acute in anarchist circles. People refusing to world with each other for the most frivilious reasons. This person eats meat. This person ran in an election. This person doesn't like modern art. This person works for a living, this person doesn't buy organic fair trade coffee from South American farmers. This person wears Nike. etc etc. There are sane anarchists too, but there is a truckload of sectarianism, in the Anarchist movement.

I really don't where you have got this from but I've never experienced anything like this at all, except for "This person ran in an election" which is a genuine tactical difference. Half the time I do wonder whether everything you say is meant to be a joke.

[Omi]

I really don't where you have got this from but I've never experienced anything like this at all, except for "This person ran in an election" which is a genuine tactical difference. Half the time I do wonder whether everything you say is meant to be a joke.

That last sentence wasn't necessary at all for the message in your post, no need to get flaming. However much I disagree with Charles Xavier he made a polite post.

[Ravachol]

I find sectarianism much more acute in anarchist circles. People refusing to world with each other for the most frivilious reasons. This person eats meat. This person ran in an election. This person doesn't like modern art. This person works for a living, this person doesn't buy organic fair trade coffee from South American farmers. This person wears Nike. etc etc. There are sane anarchists too, but there is a truckload of sectarianism, in the Anarchist movement.

You seem to confuse lifestylist circles with genuine Anarchist circles. I couldn't give two shits about lifestylists advocating 'green entrepreneurship', 'sustainable capitalism' and 'fair trade global trade' or any other bourgeois liberal nonsense. This is however not what discussions inside the actual Anarchist movement consist of.

[this is an invasion]

This is an inspiring example of great revolutionary activity..."Don't join the bureaucratic Communist Party...join our gang instead!"

Seriously, where do I sign up?

I am sure that every worker wants his kid to join anarchist gang.

I don't want other people to join my crew. It's not necessary, and, like I said, we don't wish to be any sort of vanguard or be put into a leadership role.

It's not even necessary that everyone form their own gangs. Maybe some people want to form neighorhood councils or worker's councils. The crew structure is what I am personally interested in, and it works well for us.


Obviously has no clue how a real gang is organized(Or at least a successful one).
Real? Successful? These are arbitrary terms.

I'd say we are pretty real, and fairly successful.

It is interesting to note that most American street gangs are based off the Black Panthers, and existed almost entirely as defense mechanisms against racist White gangs and police. And that crews within the skinhead and hardcore subcultures exist as friends watching each other's backs at shows and on the streets and having fun together.

[Ravachol]

It is interesting to note that most American street gangs are based off the Black Panthers, and existed almost entirely as defense mechanisms against racist White gangs and police. And that crews within the skinhead and hardcore subcultures exist as friends watching each other's backs at shows and on the streets and having fun together.

Worker's organisations, insofar as they are composed of the working class organising FOR the working class, ought to watch each other's backs as well. This does not make them a 'gang' however and I don't see how concept of a 'gang' has any intrinsic structural model, beneficial or otherwise. It's more of an insulting term than anything else. Advocating workplace and community self-organisation, drawing on a Council Communist legacy, as done by Kampa Tillsammans (http://libcom.org/tags/k-mpa-tillsammans) is something different though.

[FSL]

I don't want other people to join my crew
It's not even necessary that everyone form their own gangs


Please, oh please, tell me you wrote these while wearing buggy trousers and lots of bling bling!

(But it's bad communists who go on later on and make stupid stereotypes!)

[Charles Xavier]

You seem to confuse lifestylist circles with genuine Anarchist circles. I couldn't give two shits about lifestylists advocating 'green entrepreneurship', 'sustainable capitalism' and 'fair trade global trade' or any other bourgeois liberal nonsense. This is however not what discussions inside the actual Anarchist movement consist of.

The other anarchists would disagree.

[Ravachol]

The other anarchists would disagree.

What other Anarchists? How are these people you describe even remotely Anarchists?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Real? Successful? These are arbitrary terms.

I'd say we are pretty real, and fairly successful.

It is interesting to note that most American street gangs are based off the Black Panthers, and existed almost entirely as defense mechanisms against racist White gangs and police. And that crews within the skinhead and hardcore subcultures exist as friends watching each other's backs at shows and on the streets and having fun together.
There is a big difference between a gang and a crew. Gangs are criminal organizations who usually partake in the black market. I'd also like to mention that most street gangs are not black, but are Latino, and only a few were affiliated with the Black Panthers or "based" off of the Black Panthers.

[this is an invasion]

There is a big difference between a gang and a crew. Gangs are criminal organizations who usually partake in the black market. I'd also like to mention that most street gangs are not black, but are Latino, and only a few were affiliated with the Black Panthers or "based" off of the Black Panthers.

There is not a big difference between gang and crew. Maybe you weren't aware, but there are multiple definitions for each, and on top of that I said similar to a gang.

I meant the disintegration of the Black Panthers gave rise to a lot of street gangs. At least in California. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that gangs and crews play roles beyond the common stereotypes associated with them. Not that I see anything particularly wrong with participating in black markets, as long as they don't directly harm other working people.


Please, oh please, tell me you wrote these while wearing buggy trousers and lots of bling bling!


Woah... racism.

[AK]

The other anarchists would disagree.
Ah, so you're saying we should apply that stereotype to all anarchist groups?

[bie]

I don't want other people to join my crew. It's not necessary, and, like I said, we don't wish to be any sort of vanguard or be put into a leadership role.

It's not even necessary that everyone form their own gangs. Maybe some people want to form neighorhood councils or worker's councils. The crew structure is what I am personally interested in, and it works well for us.
Ok, but it doesn't bring you even a small step further towards abolishing of capitalism and building of the classless society. You will never be able to fight with the huge machinery of imperialism with this sort of organizations. You will be never able to organize the society after the revolution or to defend it against internal and external foes. Believe me, I don't like formalism, but there is no other way.

[Omi]

You seem to confuse lifestylist circles with genuine Anarchist circles. I couldn't give two shits about lifestylists advocating 'green entrepreneurship', 'sustainable capitalism' and 'fair trade global trade' or any other bourgeois liberal nonsense. This is however not what discussions inside the actual Anarchist movement consist of.

There are a few life-stylists in my organisation, amongst social and insurrectionairy anarchists. The life-stylists match all the stereotypes: Vegan dumpsterdiving dreadlocked squatters reading crimethink. None of them advocate any type of ''green fair'' capitalism you describe. I think these are mostly stereotypes, and classiffying lifestylist tendencys as ''non genuine anarchism'' is pretty sectarian and ignores the reasons behind the existance of these lifestylist tendencies, which I think are mainly due to the fact that no real revolutionairy organisations and movements exist in todays society. Most of the lifestylers I met where very sincere anti-capitalist anarchists, and would be social anarchists if such a movement where in existance in our context.

[Ravachol]

There are a few life-stylists in my organisation, amongst social and insurrectionairy anarchists. The life-stylists match all the stereotypes: Vegan dumpsterdiving dreadlocked squatters reading crimethink. None of them advocate any type of ''green fair'' capitalism you describe.


I wasn't referring to 'unorganised' Anarchists at all, sorry if that was what came across. I was referring to those 'Anarchists' who advocate 'social change through lifestyle change', esentially being on one line with reformists and social-democrats. I've encountered plenty of those (actively calling themselves 'Anarchists') where I'm from, but that's probably my part of the country :p

While I disagree firmly with Crimethink I don't reject any genuine anti-capitalist Anarchists, far from it. I do believe, however, that the 'pan-Anarchism' line taken by some considering everyone calling themself an Anarchist as an actual Anarchist is counter-productive. I know plenty of people who behave and talk like Anarchists whilst not actively calling themselves one whilst I've met people referring to themselves as Anarchists advocating subculturalism rather than politics or, even worse, 'fair capitalism'.



I think these are mostly stereotypes, and classiffying lifestylist tendencys as ''non genuine anarchism'' is pretty sectarian and ignores the reasons behind the existance of these lifestylist tendencies


I agree we should not ignore the reasons behind their existence, but I don't think this means we shouldn't critique life-stylism for what it is.
Do note that I understand life-stylism to be the subculturalist tendency ever so present in,mainly, Dutch/German squatting circles where a 'radical identity' is more important than actual politics, up to the point where politics are rejected in favor of identity-based subculturalism.

Me and several Comrades have been critiqued in the past (by a-political squatters) for introducing radical politics in Squatting circles where I'm active. Even though the a-political squatters where referring to themselves as 'Anarchists'. I can't consider that genuine Anarchism.
If we are to build a genuine Anarchist movement this should be done on the basis of genuine Anarchist politics.



which I think are mainly due to the fact that no real revolutionairy organisations and movements exist in todays society. Most of the lifestylers I met where very sincere anti-capitalist anarchists, and would be social anarchists if such a movement where in existance in our context.

I fully agree with you on this, It wasn't my intention to critique parts of the actual political milieu you call lifestylists, my sneers where directed at those in the a-political milieu calling themselves 'Anarchists' while espousing nothing even close to Anarchism.

I hope that clarifies my use of the term 'lifestylism' which to me signifies subcultural identity politics.

[Omi]

Maybe this topic should be split up and moved to theory or learning or whatever, because we are getting fairly off topic. But I understand your post. I know a lot of the a-political squatting (although I think a-political doesn't exist, rejecting politics is a political statement in itself) call themselves anarchists but are merely propagating subculturalism. I too think serious action needs to be taken against this. But this doesn't mean in my view to alienate and ''excommunicate'' these people from the anarchist space. I think most of them are genuinely enraged by the way society operates but lack any political framework to understand the foundations of these troubles. The fact that there is a large group of people genuinely angry at how capitalism operates and relate in some way to the message of anarchism (be that a highly subcultural and lifestylist one), but do not understand the how and why, is a sign of failure by organised and active (or genuine, as you might call them) anarchists to reach out to this group of people.

[Ravachol]

although I think a-political doesn't exist, rejecting politics is a political statement in itself


True, whilst I disagree with the anti-political milieu (such as Landstreicher, Letters,etc) I respect them. I share your opinion every action is political in a sense. However, the 'a-political' attitude i referred to was not so much a rejection of 'politics' but more along the lines of "we don't care about politics, let us party in peace!" :rolleyes:


But this doesn't mean in my view to alienate and ''excommunicate'' these people from the anarchist space.


Far from it, I think we should try to connect with the full extend of the working class as much as possible! The problem is they actively rejected the insertion of politics in the milieu as it was 'a waste of time'.



I think most of them are genuinely enraged by the way society operates but lack any political framework to understand the foundations of these troubles. The fact that there is a large group of people genuinely angry at how capitalism operates and relate in some way to the message of anarchism


Fully agreed, class 'sub-conciousness' (for lack of a better word :p) is something that should always be stimulated!



be that a highly subcultural and lifestylist one

The problem is that this attitude, at times, ammounts to nothing more than social-democracy with dreadlocks. This doesn't mean we should exclude that, not at all! It does, however, mean we should critique the attitude and seek to turn it in a genuine, more productive politics. Subculturalism as it exists now in my experience is counterproductive to this, it pacifies a movement into a 'culture factory' churning out commodities and identities (often in the commodity-form). That's not something we should argue in favor of.

The task of the Anarchist organisation is to be an advocate of Ideas and helping hand in struggle. Even, to the working class individuals stuck in the swamp of subculturalism.


Also, I agree with Omi that this small discussion should be split before it derails the topic on the KKE.

[Omi]

In my view, even the ''we don't care just party!'' is in a sense political, I was not aiming at the whole Landstreicher crew. I agree with you though that active agitation against such elements is needed, and the size of this ''a-political'' squatting scene is a clear sign we aren't doing it enough!;)

[this is an invasion]

Ok, but it doesn't bring you even a small step further towards abolishing of capitalism and building of the classless society. You will never be able to fight with the huge machinery of imperialism with this sort of organizations. You will be never able to organize the society after the revolution or to defend it against internal and external foes. Believe me, I don't like formalism, but there is no other way.

I would agree that crews alone would not accomplish much. But I imagine revolutionary networks of various councils (worker's, neighborhood assemblies, etc.) and crews. These networks would be able to occupy space and take over workplaces and neighborhoods. These sorts of organizations are the means and the ends of recomposing the class towards communism.

[Wolf Larson]

The other anarchists would disagree.

As if there aren't any lifestyle Marxists. The 'anarchists' in san fransisco who mace pied a critic of vegans were lame to say the least. What you speak of does exist but it's not limited to anarchism it's more of a 'leftist' lifestyle thing.

[Delenda Carthago]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Mdo02Cq5o&feature=related


will a KKE member explain to our foreign comrades what is the stance of KKE to Velouhiotis,leader of antifascist army of EL.AS. ?The official stance,not what the party member think of him.


http://braininfo.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/velouchiotis.jpg

[Charles Xavier]

blank

[comradesvs]

Long live the KKE/KNE! Long live the Greek working people! They are an inspiration for workers around the world.

[bcbm]

There is a big difference between a gang and a crew. Gangs are criminal organizations who usually partake in the black market.

"We are not afraid of forming gangs; and can only
laugh at those who will decry us as a mafia."


Ok, but it doesn't bring you even a small step further towards abolishing of capitalism and building of the classless society. You will never be able to fight with the huge machinery of imperialism with this sort of organizations. You will be never able to organize the society after the revolution or to defend it against internal and external foes. Believe me, I don't like formalism, but there is no other way.

most "formal" organizations haven't proved particularly successful, and certainly groups that have organized around a gang model, criminality aside, physically control more territory (even against the police!) than most communist parties in the world.

[black magick hustla]

most "formal" organizations haven't proved particularly successful, and certainly groups that have organized around a gang model, criminality aside, physically control more territory (even against the police!) than most communist parties in the world.

well they sell drugs and pimp, of course they will have more resources than people who do not push heroin on children

[black magick hustla]

dude i could make so much money out of dealing drugs. im sorry man gang structures are stupid and if they become big enouigh they almost always by thumb of rule descend into criminality

[Ravachol]

"We are not afraid of forming gangs; and can only
laugh at those who will decry us as a mafia."



most "formal" organizations haven't proved particularly successful, and certainly groups that have organized around a gang model, criminality aside, physically control more territory (even against the police!) than most communist parties in the world.

Whilst I agree that traditional methods of organisation might not prove viable anymore today, I don't see what is intrinsically good about 'gang' structures. As Maldoror said, most operate HIGHLY hierarchical and by threat of force.

I think you are referring to community-based networks of resistance which form due to inter-personal ties on the workplace and in the communities, an organising model which might prove to be pretty strong due to:

1) The strength of it's ties, which go beyond ideology into the personal sphere of life

2) The locality of resistance, the nucleus of such an organisation will be highly organic to the terrain of struggle: The workplace and the community in a fashion that isn't "alien" to it as some formal organisations trying to take over a neighbourhood are.

I don't see however, how this differs from Autonomist Marxism and it's theory and practice as developed in '60s/'70s Italy.

Do note that this bears with it the risk of reproducing the informal structures and customs of everyday life under Capital's hegemony if no adequate measures are taken against this. A certain degree of political insertion is required to prevent these structures degenerating into narrow sectorial interests, identical to the problems of 'a-political' Syndicalism.

[bcbm]

Whilst I agree that traditional methods of organisation might not prove viable anymore today, I don't see what is intrinsically good about 'gang' structures. As Maldoror said, most operate HIGHLY hierarchical and by threat of force.

well i didn't say there was anything intrinsically good about them, i simply think they are a form of organization that can be adapted to communist ends.


I think you are referring to community-based networks of resistance which form due to inter-personal ties on the workplace and in the communities, an organising model which might prove to be pretty strong due to:

seems an awful lot to extrapolate from two sentences.

[this is an invasion]

I don't see anything inherently wrong with criminality. I think some of it, like pushing drugs in your community is something to be fought against, but let's say I were to boost text books from a college book store and sell them. I am making a decent amount of money, and students (who, in my area, are usually working class) are getting their books for like half price. Is there anything wrong with that?

[nuisance]

I don't see anything inherently wrong with criminality. I think some of it, like pushing drugs in your community is something to be fought against, but let's say I were to boost text books from a college book store and sell them. I am making a decent amount of money, and students (who, in my area, are usually working class) are getting their books for like half price. Is there anything wrong with that?
Alot of leftists, it seems, have a worrying amount of loyalty to the law of the land, for supposed revolutionaries.

[black magick hustla]

Alot of leftists, it seems, have a worrying amount of loyalty to the law of the land, for supposed revolutionaries.

it has nothing to do with loyalty to the law. when we talk about criminality we talk about drug pushing, sectarian inter-gang violence, rading small shops, etcetera.

[bcbm]

and to others "criminality" encompasses a wider range of activities, some good and some bad, but not to be completely written off.

[Honggweilo]

inb4 CrimethInk

[Ravachol]

I don't see anything inherently wrong with criminality. I think some of it, like pushing drugs in your community is something to be fought against, but let's say I were to boost text books from a college book store and sell them. I am making a decent amount of money, and students (who, in my area, are usually working class) are getting their books for like half price. Is there anything wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with that, 'criminality' as such does not exist in my eyes, adhering to the dichtomy between the 'criminal' and the 'lawfull' is to reproduce the judical structures of the state in your own organisation. There are however multiple segments of 'criminal behavior' that are to be considered abhorent to the revolutionary milieu as well (condoning rape, theft from working class people to live in luxery yourself,etc is utterly dispicable). Bonnot-style illegalism is a dead-end at best and a reproduction of Capitalist mentality at worst.

That being said, adhering to the crime-lawfull dichtomy as produced by Bourgeois society is just as bad as it is nothing but the reproduction of dominant structures and ideology.

[nuisance]

Bonnot-style illegalism is a dead-end at best and a reproduction of Capitalist mentality at worst.
Why do you think this?

[Ravachol]

Why do you think this?

Because of several reasons:

1) Illegalism is HIGHLY individualist in nature and will only be able to spread throughout the social terrain in very precarious situations where material conditions are so low the cutural hegemony of Capitalism has started to crumble under the weight of it's own farce. It will, however, not spread beyond the confines of marginalism and an already politicised minority in countries and times where material conditions aren't that precarious.

2) Illegalism's main focus is 'take what you want, do what you want' with the individual as the centre of focus. Communism requires a collective sense of solidarity both to function and to be achieved. It is collective struggle and social operation that brings forth communism, not individualist appropriation.

3) Illegalism reproduces exploitation in a sense that it does not emancipate labor at all, it doesn't free living labor from the condition of being proletarian. Instead, it forcefully re-imposes the individual adhering to Illegalism as a sort of weird lumpen-bourgoisie consuming without adding value to society, backed only by the threat of force. Do note that this differ from proletarian re-appropriation which is taking back what is rightfully ours as a class. Robbing proletarians or reproducing Capitalist structures through a black market in order to 'live the good life' is anathema to communism of whatever variety.

[nuisance]

Because of several reasons:

1) Illegalism is HIGHLY individualist in nature and will only be able to spread throughout the social terrain in very precarious situations where material conditions are so low the cutural hegemony of Capitalism has started to crumble under the weight of it's own farce. It will, however, not spread beyond the confines of marginalism and an already politicised minority in countries and times where material conditions aren't that precarious.
My question was more to do with your objections to the Bonnot gang, as opposed to illegalism per se. Sorry for not making that clearer.
Well the Bonnot gang were individualists. Members of the gang, many of them, resorted to illegalism after being sacked for being anarchists and syndicalists because of their agititation in their workplaces. This put them in a tricky position, sponge off fellow workers or expropriate illegitimate wealth from the rich, which was generated by the workers themselves- which put them in a rather economically 'precarious' position.

As for the confines of marginalism, the Bonnot gang seemed to not fall into this role. Yes, the bourgeois press widely condemned them as hardened criminal with a tools at hand superior to those of the police howeve, Albert Meltzer noted 'the undoubted popularity of the Bonnot Gang with the workers' (http://libcom.org/library/truth-about-bonnot-gang-ezra-brett-mell).


2) Illegalism's main focus is 'take what you want, do what you want' with the individual as the centre of focus. Communism requires a collective sense of solidarity both to function and to be achieved. It is collective struggle and social operation that brings forth communism, not individualist appropriation.
You make the mistake of believing that conponents of illegalism understand such acts to be a revolutionary activity. Marius Jacob- "I don't think that illegalism can free the individual in present-day society. If he manages to free himself of a few constraints using this means, the unequal nature of the struggle will create others that are even worse and, in the end, will lead to the loss of his freedom, the little freedom he had, and sometimes his life. Basically, illegalism, considered as an act of revolt, is more a matter of temperament than of doctrine. This is why it cannot have an educational effect on the working masses as a whole. By this, I mean a worthwhile educational effect". (http://recollectionbooks.com/siml/library/illegalistsDougImrie.htm)

'I am not a fan of illegalism,I'm ALEGAL. Illegalism is, all in all, a dangerous road to go down for those who take to it even for a little while, a fall-back
solution, neither to be extolled nor recommended.' Emile Armand (http://325.nostate.net/library/325_6.pdf).
Personally, I consider communism as the greatest expression of individuality, as it does imply take what you want and do what you want, well atleast provides you with the relevant means to fulfuil your need.


3) Illegalism reproduces exploitation in a sense that it does not emancipate labor at all, it doesn't free living labor from the condition of being proletarian.
For alot illegalists, the criminal behaviour they indulged in was predominately out of being able to feed themselves- alot like the Somali pirates who couldn't find work in their fishing trade (though, of course, the illegalists weren't robbing to sell!).


Instead, it forcefully re-imposes the individual adhering to Illegalism as a sort of weird lumpen-bourgoisie consuming without adding value to society, backed only by the threat of force. Do note that this differ from proletarian re-appropriation which is taking back what is rightfully ours as a class.
Illegalists, as I have said, were often militants that could not find stable work due to their agitation- many were ex-syndicalists (for example Bonnot).


Robbing proletarians or reproducing Capitalist structures through a black market in order to 'live the good life' is anathema to communism of whatever variety.
How did the Bonnot gang, or other anarchist illegalists, recreate capitalist structures? From my readings, no black market was created and nor did they rob from proletarians. Also, highly sort after bandits would rarely have the time to 'live the good life'. They were hardly the anarchist versions of Al Capone...

[RedPersonality]

Speech of the General Secretary of the CC, cde Al. Papariga, at the nationwide demonstration of the party




Mass and militant counterattack till the victory

We would like to welcome all of you, as well as the comrades from the fraternal communist and workers’ parties to this common, class, patriotic internationalist struggle.
Every day we face the big dramatic questions of millions of workers and employees in public and private sectors, of the owners of small businesses, poor farmers, youth and women who struggle to cover the family expenses.
What should we do to save ourselves from poverty and the insecurity of tomorrow? How long will the agreement and the supervision of the troika last? What can we do against unemployment? What will happen with the owners of small businesses who cannot afford their contribution to their insurance fund? How can the poor farmers tackle the merchants and the industrialists who demand to buy their produce for nothing? What about the banks that mortgaged our land? What is going to happen with the thousands of university and TEI (Technical Education Institutes) graduates as well as with the graduates of other public and private schools who see that their degree cannot guarantee a stable job or an income that will enable them to be independent from their families and start their own family? What are we going to do with the increasing social criminality, with the spread of drugs? Until when will we work hard, will the productivity increase and despite that the people will still live on the verge of misery? Are there any threats against the territorial integrity of our country; is there any danger for our country to be involved in wars in the region?
Do not trust, do not believe, and do not pay any attention to the allegations and the promises of the government.
Do not believe and do not trust those who alternate in government with PASOK, those who told you that the European capitalist integration was a “one-way road”; those who cover up their compromise and retreat with a mantle of “renewal” and modernisation.
The government lies shamelessly when it claims that the measures for the working class and the self-employed in the city and the countryside will last for three, maximum four years and that afterwards economy will recover; they lie when they claim that the people’s sacrifices will yield fruits.
They elaborate barbaric measures that will last for a lifetime, they are ready to take additional, even worse measures that will apply for the children of our grandchildren.
This system, which is rotten to the core, is not eternal. The people’s sacrifices will yield fruits only for the capitalists, the monopolies. And even if we assume that the Greek economy will soon exit the cycle of the crisis and recover, things will be equally worse for the people. Unemployment will be stabilised and exacerbated, flexible working relations will be extended, salaries and wages will be decreased further; workers will be forced to work 40 and 50 years to receive a poverty level pension, the living cost will be intolerable and likewise the cost of healthcare, education and all social services.
Being part of the capitalist barbarity of the EU, interwoven with the IMF, involved in the imperialist rivalries among the EU, the US, China and Russia, involved in the race for a share in the markets, the Greek economy will always be considered less productive and competitive.
Greece lies among the imperialist hard core of Northern and Western Europe and their rival centres in Eastern Europe and Eurasia in general. Due to its geopolitical position, Greece will always be affected by contradictions and military conflicts.


They prepare a new assault on the people’s movement

In order to exonerate the capitalist system and the reactionary character of the EU, the government attributes the causes of the crisis to issues of corruption, lack of transparency, favouritism and immorality. Thus, it paves the way for the most reactionary barbaric, conservative actions.
But who are those who talk about the eradication of corruption and transparency? It is those who rejected the proposals of KKE on the abolition of the business secrecy, the registration of shares, the abolition of MPs’ pensions and allowances for their participation in the committees of the parliament. It is not a coincidence that they use the rotten, reactionary provocative action of LAOS for this dirty work.
The leadership of PASOK returns us to the past by posing to KKE the misleading, intimidating question “do you respect and obey the constitution or not?” It prepares new “national loyalty” certificates. It pursues to penalise communist ideology, even the mere declaration and defense of socialism-communism. But this time it does not reckon an important factor, namely, the possibility of working class’s counterattack.
Anyway, who are those who talk about respecting the constitution?
It is those who export their capital abroad in order to further increase their profits leading the workers to the dole.
It is all those, who many times since the establishment of the Greek State violated the constitution paving the way for the abolition of their own product, namely the bourgeois parliament.
It is the successors of the politicians who invited the British army to slaughter the Greek people in order to defeat the national resistance that defeated the German-Italian fascism.
It is those who invited the US to step into the shoes of the British imperialism in order to confront the so-called danger of communism even with napalm bombs.
It is the very bourgeoisie and its politicians, its very parties that bargained with the Greek junta so as to restore the bourgeois parliamentary democracy in Greece, after the junta had fulfilled the goals it served.
It is the Greek bourgeoisie and its parties that signed the participation and integration of Greece to the EU and the NATO by conceding sovereignty rights and competences.
It is all of them, who in the 1990s permitted the NATO troops to pass through the Greek territory so as to shed the Yugoslavian people’s blood, in order to dissolve and divide Balkans, without taking into consideration the bourgeois constitutional legitimacy.
It is them who privatised the ports e.g. the port of Astakos, giving the green light to the US weapon systems to pass without being controlled, so as to send military support to Israel and aid the crimes against the Palestinian people.
It is them who are ready to sign an agreement with Turkey handing over the defense of the Greek islands to NATO. In other words, it is those who constantly concede sovereignty rights and competences to imperialist centres at their own will. It is them who thanked the USA during the crisis in Imia which has been a turning point as it led to the establishment of the grey zones.
It is those who establish a professional, in fact a mercenary army under the pretext of the reduction of military service.
It is those who buy weapon systems, complementary to the Turkish ones that serve the interests of the NATO; it is those who say “yes” to the weapon dealers of the various allies in the imperialist world order.

People’s sovereignty is incompatible with capitalism

ND agrees with PASOK as regards the exit from the crisis. It keeps its distance regarding issues of tactics in order to feed the conflict between the two parties and promote the bipartisan alternation. Have you heard ND saying it will abolish the agreement with the EU and the IMF in case it comes to power, or that it will abolish the laws of PASOK that demolish the last gains achieved literally with blood? NO.
It criticises several measures, for being anti-social; however, its main goal is to manipulate the justified indignation of the people and exonerate itself from its responsibilities, while at the same time it says that it will respect the agreements of PASOK because government needs continuity.
This is exactly what we are saying: that each party continues the policy of the other; that their differences, even if they appear as a verbal war, are in fact an internal war between two parties that serve the capitalist system.
The recent statement of the secretary of the parliamentary group of ND at the Parliament is revealing. He criticised the bourgeois parties in Greece and PASOK for having been tolerant towards KKE from 1974 till nowadays. He called from the parliament podium on all parties to act jointly against KKE. Namely, he called to prevent the rise of the people’s movement.
Sirs, we tell you clearly: the bourgeois system has never been tolerant towards KKE, neither in the post-dictatorship period. You use either the carrot or the stick according to the possibilities that you have each time, according to whether you have the ability to draw people to anti-communism which is a totally undemocratic and negative development.
We declare once again, clearly, our firm and self-evident orientation since 1918: to struggle at any cost, not merely for a solution to the daily people’s problems, but also to convince the people that their future is socialism communism.
The constitution is the product of the balance of forces at each period. When the situation tends to be reactionary, then the constitution changes to the worst. When there is a tendency for the balance of forces to be in favour of the people, then it can improve and when the people win they will make their own constitution.
The term “democracy” is adjusted in order to aid the propaganda of the covert dictatorship of the monopolies, in order to conceal the inconceivable blackmails of the capitalists.
There has never been, neither will be in the future, a bourgeois government, neither a one-party government or a coalition government, which has not violated specific fundamental articles of its own constitution. People’s sovereignty is incompatible with capitalism.
When you defend constitution, you defend the right of the capitalists to exploit the wealth that the people produce, to possess the most important commodity, namely the labour force, the ability of man to work. You defend the supreme law, the law of surplus value.
LAOS plays a key role in contributing to this vile political game against the people. It is a two-faced party which drips poison when it sees the seed of the movement’s emancipation. It does not hesitate to change its slogans and propaganda in order to divert people’s consciousness. It plays a leading role in the propaganda against KKE, in the provocations against the people, in the spread of racism and nationalism.

Social political alliance from the bottom.
Which is the way out of the crisis?

The other parties, the government, the European and global capitalism also seek a way out of the crisis. The question is to find a way out that will serve the interests of the people, the people to overcome the incurable disease of the capitalist periodical crises.

All imperialist institutions as well as the EU the IMF and the OECD predict that the recovery of the capitalist economies and capitalism in general will be weak compared to the past. They also predict reshufflings in the imperialist pyramid. Therefore, the rivalries between the capitalist states and centres will intensify even more. All these entail military interventions and conflicts where the peoples will be the victims.
As regards Greece, everything indicates that the crisis will continue and that the recovery will be too weak in the best case; that public debt will increase and bring a new wave of anti-people measures, while a new cycle of economic crisis will break out more quickly than ever.
Due to this very prediction, namely that all social contradictions, above all the main contradiction between capital and labour, will intensify, there is an attempt to reform and disguise the political landscape. They even try to create new parties in place of the old ones, though with the same role and mission as the old ones. Furthermore, they choose a new, allegedly incorruptible, political staff that will do the same dirty and even dirtier work. They will not hesitate to sacrifice their own “children” in order to give the impression that the system has changed. All scenarios are possible. People must thwart their plans as soon as possible.
The working class must not expect solutions from above, that will emerge without its action and will be against its interests.
The way out is a new political choice that should be prepared distinctively through the processes of the movement and the social political alliance from the bottom up. The streams of resistance grow; they must merge into a big precipitous river.
We support an alliance which by means of its consistent planned action manages to win smaller or bigger battles and at the same time heads for the only solution that serves the interests of the people, the people’s economy and power proposed by KKE. The people should not expect anything from the alternation of the bourgeois parties in the government, or from their coalition with conservative or pseudo-left wings. Monopolies’ violence must be defeated by a mass, unitary social-political current that will sweep them.
Of course there is another solution which is a deliberately ambiguous and verbalistic proposal, the so-called “unity of the left”. It is the proposal of SYN/SYRIZA which is a strange though not at all unusual formation; an ambiguous proposal that seems to appeal to everyone and is adapted to the audience. It constitutes an obstacle to the emancipation of the people’s movement against the ruling policy. Actually, all versions of “the unity of left” have the same core, the bankrupted line of social democracy. In other words, the recipe that led us to this point appears as an allegedly modern innovative solution.
Of course, one cannot expect a radical alternative from a political formation that betrayed the class struggle, the anti-imperialist anti-capitalist struggle, that supported the slander of the communist movement and the socialist construction as a left alibi, that judges the socialist construction and the mistakes that were made based on the criteria of the bourgeois ideology and propaganda.
We cannot follow a tactic that might have been suitable in the past. Nowadays, it is not enough the people to project a list of demands, appeals and requests. The demands, the goals of struggle, the concrete proposals should demonstrate the possibility to solve people’s problems. However, they can acquire dynamics and be effective only if they are part of the strategy, of the struggle for the overthrow of monopolies, of the struggle for people’s power and economy. The creation of an alliance with KKE to conduct a joint struggle, does not presuppose the agreement with KKE’s perception on socialism, communism.
Nowadays, there are objective conditions that enable a different organisation of the society characterised by the decision of the people to transform the ownership of monopolies to social ownership. However, the subjective social-political factor, which will initiate these developments, when the bourgeois political system has suffered so many blows and is incapable of ruling, lacks in strength and organisation.
Development in favour of the people
What does people’s economy mean?
The sector of natural resources processing, manufacturing, production of mechanisation, energy, transport, telecommunications, concentrated trade come under the ownership of the people aiming at an independent economy, reducing its dependence from foreign trade and the relations with the capitalist economies and the interstate monopoly groups in such crucial sectors.
The land will be socialised, as will the large capitalist agricultural businesses. State productive units for the production and processing of agricultural products as raw materials or as articles of consumption will be set up.
Complementing the socialised means of production, productive cooperatives for small commodity production in the cities, and productive cooperatives for small and medium sized farmers will be set up. The small and medium sized farmers participate initially taking into account, the amount of land and the number of animals by which each of them was integrated into the cooperative.
The new achievements in technology and science will be used, with the aim of reducing labour time, the increase of free time, which can be used for upgrading the educational-cultural level, for the acquisition of the ability to fully participate in the control of management, and in the institutions of state-power.
Every form of private-business activity in the sectors of health, welfare, social security, education, culture and sports will be immediately abolished.
The socialisation of the means of production creates the possibility to form a central planning for the utilisation and the distribution of the man power, for the eradication of unemployment.
This planning and this distribution cannot be not ensured by monopoly capitalism since each monopoly makes a short term or at most a medium term individual planning based on profit and under the conditions of general capitalist anarchy.
The central planning of the economy is based on the utilisation of all development possibilities of the country for the human needs, without any unevenness and without any restriction resulting from the interweaving of the Greek economy with the imperialist EU and the various mechanisms e.g. the troika. It is specialised in each sector and branch, in each region and category.
Scientific research will be organised through state institutions - higher education bodies, institutes, etc- and will serve Central Planning, the administration of social production and social services, in order to develop social prosperity.
Emergence of new people’s institutions
All workers should have access in an equal fashion and according to need, to public and free services- healthcare, education, social security, leisure, protection of children and the aged, cheap (and in some cases free) transport, telecommunications services, energy and water supply for popular consumption, etc.
A state social infrastructure will be created which will provide high quality social services in order to meet needs which are tackled today by the individual or family households (e.g. restaurants in the workplace, in schools).
All children of pre-school age will be provided with free, public and compulsory pre-school education. The exclusively public, free, general (basic) 12-year school education will be ensured for all through a school with a unified structure, programme, administration and functioning, technical infrastructure, trained specialised staff. Exclusively public and free professional education will be ensured after the completion of the compulsory basic education. Guaranteed work on the basis of each one’s studies will be ensured for all students before the completion of their studies. An exclusively public and free healthcare system will be set up.
People’s economy is not compatible with participation of the country in imperialist unions such as the EU and NATO. People’s state-power, depending on the international and regional situation, will seek to develop inter-state relations, with mutual benefit, between Greece and other countries.
The Greece of people’s power will seek to utilise every available rupture, rivalry and contradiction among imperialist powers in order to safeguard and strengthen people’s power and economy, the territorial integrity and the sovereignty of the country.
People’s power will be based on the institutions that will be borne by the struggle and the initiatives of the workers’ and people’s movement. As a consequence, new institutions will emerge.
The basis of working class state-power will be the units of production, workplaces, through which working class and social control of the administration will be exercised. The workers’ representatives to the organs of state-power will be elected (and when necessary recalled) from these “communities of production”.
The small commodity producers and farmers are established as allies of the working class and elect their representatives through respective bodies from bottom up.
Young people who are not engaged in production (e.g. students in higher education) will take part in the election of representatives through the educational units. The participation of non-working people and retirees will take place in a special fashion, through mass organization and units providing special services.
People’s state power will create institutions and take practical measures so as to ensure the exercise of workers’ and social control and the unhindered criticism of decisions and practices which obstruct socialist construction. The unhindered denunciation of every kind of arbitrariness and bureaucratic behaviour of officials, and other negative phenomena constitute a vital need.
The highest organ of state power is elected from the bottom up. The representatives are not permanent, they can be recalled, and they are not cut off from production. Furthermore, they can be on leave from their work for the duration of their term, according to the requirements. The representatives, “the members of the parliament as they say nowadays” have no special economic privileges from their participation in the organs of state-power. The government, the heads of the various executive authorities (ministries, administrations, committees etc.) are chosen by the highest body.
A corresponding Constitution, Labour law, Family law that establishes the new relations are to be formed. The judicial corps will be made up of elected and recallable people’s lay judges, as well as of permanent staff, accountable to the institutions of working class state power.
Joint action and alliance with KKE
This is the political proposal of KKE for the state power the joint action and cooperation. It appeals to the working class, the self-employed, to the poor farmers, to the movements of the youth, the women, to each movement and form of struggle that is willing to resist monopolies and imperialism.
We want to initiate a debate with all those who seek a realistic and just solution for the people, who want to be emancipated from PASOK and ND. Today their number increases.
We do not claim that our political proposal can be easily realised. Either way you are asked to make sacrifices; but if you accept to make these sacrifices they will be at the benefit of the plutocracy, of businessmen and of the rotten political system that cannot be repaired. It is worth making sacrifices only for a new society without class exploitation and oppression.
Do not expect that the system of the monopolies’ power will decay; that it will corrode and collapse. It will stand firm, no matter how rotten it is as long as the people do not play a leading role in the developments.
Which is the starting point for the struggle for a new life in a new, human society, for the workers’ and people’s state power?
The starting point lies in the joint struggle and alliance with KKE, with KNE, in the joint action with mass popular class oriented organisations that struggle consistently against the monopolies.
Above all this struggle must be reflected in unitary, radical anti-monopoly activity in each workplace, enterprise, office, in public and private sectors, in the neighbourhoods, in municipality, in prefectures; in an action that leads to the change of the correlation of forces in the workers’ trade union movement, in the movement of the small sized self-employed, tradesmen, craftsmen, in the farmers’ movement in the students’ and school students’ movement.
In all electoral battles people’s vote must lead to the isolation of the yellow forces, who have compromised with the employers and the governmental policy.
Before us are the local and regional elections and the reform “Kallikratis”. The merging of the municipalities increases even more the general political character of the elections.
It offers the chance to the people to change their vote, to express through their vote their discontent and indignation, the developments that take place in the consciousness of the people and the youth.
We should not allow the government and the political system in general to utilise people’s vote as a consensus or defeatism towards this barbarous policy.
The lists of KKE can express the rising people’s discontent; the dynamics of the developments, the cooperation with KKE. The support of its electoral lists will make the difference. It will be a strong response; it will show in practice that people defy intimidation, extortion and manipulation.
Everybody join the coming struggles! Our weapons are our just demands and our untapped peoples’ forces!
They will not defeat us! Sooner or later, we shall win! They will not deceive us, they will not make fools of us again. They will not turn us into cowards, fatalists or weak-minded. Massive and militant struggle for the counterattack till the victory! We owe it, first of all, to the youth, to whom we will be definitely accountable if we fall behind.
It takes a lot of hard work to make the sun rise up again.
Are we all determined?
Yes, we are and nothing can stop us!

[this is an invasion]

Patriotism, reform, and class collaboration.


Yeah sounds like a Communist Party.

[the last donut of the night]

Patriotism, reform, and class collaboration.


Yeah sounds like a Communist Party.

So what does the Union For the Abolition of Time and Money have in store for Greek workers?
:rolleyes:

Great analysis, dude.

[Fietsketting]

So what does the Union For the Abolition of Time and Money have in store for Greek workers?
:rolleyes:

Great analysis, dude.


You are awere thats just a revleft group and not an actual union, right? :rolleyes:

[the last donut of the night]

You are awere thats just a revleft group and not an actual union, right? :rolleyes:

Yes, hence the rolling eyes.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Patriotism, reform, and class collaboration.


Yeah sounds like a Communist Party.

quiet you, we have a bourgeois election to win!

[bcbm]

So what does the Union For the Abolition of Time and Money have in store for Greek workers?


i mean, i think it is pretty self-explanatory...

[black magick hustla]

So what does the Union For the Abolition of Time and Money have in store for Greek workers?
:rolleyes:

Great analysis, dude.

i dont think we have to write ten page essays to point out such simple facts. we have a bunch of first world communists speaking about patriotism. at least the third worlders can make a semblance of an argument because some nations are oppressed but comeon, motherfuckin greece???? its not only an ideological point of view. it has political consequences. its not a coincidence why all patriotic communist parties side with the bourgeois state in the name of the betterment of the nation.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

So what does the Union For the Abolition of Time and Money have in store for Greek workers?
:rolleyes:

Great analysis, dude.


Eh? Never thought i'd see the day when pointing out that naked patriotism was a bad thing would need qualification to another commie.

I don't think we need to present any alternative here - clearly the remark was intended to contribute a debate over the merits of the KKE, not how they compare to other options in Greece.

[pranabjyoti]

As KKE has protested against the ongoing slaughtering of Indian poor people in the name of "operation Green hunt", my full support is at present with KKE. I wish all success to my KKE comrades.

[Delenda Carthago]

As KKE has protested against the ongoing slaughtering of Indian poor people in the name of "operation Green hunt", my full support is at present with KKE. I wish all success to my KKE comrades.

what?when?As far as I know,the only thing KKE has done in the last years that is not about Greece is a small demo about EU laws against communism!Matter of fact,they are both with Maoists and with CPI...:confused::confused::confused:

[bie]

KKE send its delegation to the protest against communism symbolism on 6.06.2010 in Warsaw - Poland (it was not about Greece as we see) - among the others Giorgos Toussas, MEP. Lets remind - the Polish parliament ban use of communist symbolism with the sanction of imprisonment. Only communists opposed that antidemocratic law. Some of the anarchists were on the side of the government (they form "anti-totalitarian" groups along the bourgeoisie lines). On the other hand trots did not bother to support the protest at all. Greek comrades presented symbols of its party after the law came into a force.

[Honggweilo]

what?when?As far as I know,the only thing KKE has done in the last years that is not about Greece is a small demo about EU laws against communism!Matter of fact,they are both with Maoists and with CPI...:confused::confused::confused:

uhm, the KKE organizes the International Conference of Workers and Communist Parties, The European Meeting of Young Communists In Europe, lends its position in the Europarlement to provide seminars on pan-EU/anti-imperialists topics for free, has a strong presence in organising the World Youth Festival, Publishes the international "Communist Review" in 5 languages, hosted various campaigns against anti socialist/communist measures in the EU (against the EU wide ban on marxist parties, against the KSM ban, against the LSP latvia ban, and now against the ban on communist symbolism in Poland). They even helped with the COMAC/CJB peacecamp a few days ago in belguim.

the KKE is the key player in reuniting a non-monolithic communist international since 1999 together with the Workers Party of Belgium. I would say the KKE is the most internationalist CP in europe.

http://www.iccr.gr/

[Delenda Carthago]

my question was:when did the KKE did anything about India.I know about the internationals that they are a major player in,I know about the whole Poland thing.

Cause from what I know from friends of mine in the party,KKE is not either with Naxalites or the CPI.

[pranabjyoti]

my question was:when did the KKE did anything about India.I know about the internationals that they are a major player in,I know about the whole Poland thing.

Cause from what I know from friends of mine in the party,KKE is not either with Naxalites or the CPI.
http://www.icawpi.org/en/intl-campaign/solidarity-statements/495-stop-the-mass-crimes-in-india
Here is the source.

[Tiktaalik]

KKE = snitches for the Greek police = class enemies

[Blackscare]

If councils start to ideologically restrict these tendencies to form, they will automaticaly act as some form of vanguard ( as syndicalists and platformist actually do).

As a platformist (in a loose sense, I am as of yet unaffiliated with any groups), I agree with this statement and have no problem with it.

The working class does need a vanguard, it just doesn't need a vanguard party. I've gone into this subject before, and I will again if anyone wonders what this means.


Also, if this has been covered (although I doubt it, considering I'm probably the only professed Platformist here), I'm sorry, I saw this on page 3 and didn't want to forget it by the time I got to page 9.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

So I'm wondering... with the current situation in Greece, what is the chance that we'll see Greece as a Communist nation? Is there enough support and is there enough integrity in the group for it to become a possibility?

[∞]

At this point workers don't want to overthrow capitalism. At least the majority of them doesn't. So instead of fantasizing you're defeating the capitalists by throwing rocks or molotov cocktails, you could do something much more important and try to convince these workers that they don't need their bosses.

That is revolutionary.

High tax rate and economic stagnation is what you have in mind for 'overthrowing capitalism'?:confused:

I've already made diagrams on the hierarchies of both systems. I shall post them in my album.

[Delenda Carthago]

http://www.icawpi.org/en/intl-campaign/solidarity-statements/495-stop-the-mass-crimes-in-india
Here is the source.
this is KKE marxist-leninist.A small party of 0,3%

Not KKE.

[pranabjyoti]

this is KKE marxist-leninist.A small party of 0,3%

Not KKE.
http://www.icawpi.org/en/intl-campaign/solidarity-statements/496-protest-against-the-slaughter-of-peasants-in-india
Well, there are others too. At present, may be they represent a small fraction, but in my opinion, this fraction have the capability to lead the people of Greece at present and in future. And if that situation will still continue (highly possible), they will certainly grow big.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

http://www.icawpi.org/en/intl-campaign/solidarity-statements/496-protest-against-the-slaughter-of-peasants-in-india
Well, there are others too. At present, may be they represent a small fraction, but in my opinion, this fraction have the capability to lead the people of Greece at present and in future. And if that situation will still continue (highly possible), they will certainly grow big.
Why would you say that?

[pranabjyoti]

Why would you say that?
Simple, no revisionist-opportunist party/block can not lead the workers of Greece out of this situation. That will only add up in the worse and make it worst.

[Delenda Carthago]

First of all,KKE ml ain never gonna grow bigger.It used to be a party of 60.000 20 years ago,and although the struggles and the fights of greek people,it keeps getting smaller and smaller.

Other than that,KKE never did anything about India.Point blank period.

[Charles Xavier]

blank

[Wanted Man]

He said KKE-ML, the party that was being discussed, which is basically an "anti-revisionist" group of which there dozens.

[Delenda Carthago]

What do you people think the KKE will be able to do within the Romanian govt.?
That is, even if they get more than 20 votes:laugh:
dude,I think you have a bit twisted.Its Greece,not Romania and KKE is a party of 8% with a union bigger than the official head union of Greece.Matter of fact its the only party that actually is getting slightly stronger in the last months while the other political parties are getting demolished.They even had a gathering with 100.000 people:one out of 100 greeks was there that day!

[∞]

dude,I think you have a bit twisted.Its Greece,not Romania and KKE is a party of 8% with a union bigger than the official head union of Greece.Matter of fact its the only party that actually is getting slightly stronger in the last months while the other political parties are getting demolished.They even had a gathering with 100.000 people:one out of 100 greeks was there that day!

Oh I thought this thread was about the Romanian KKE...

[Wanted Man]

Oh I thought this thread was about the Romanian KKE...

Is there even a Romanian party with that name?

But yeah, I can understand the confusion. I mean, it's not like we are getting many clues that this thread is about the Communist Party of Greece. Sure, the thread is located in a forum called The Situation in Greece and the first post contains a big banner that says Communist Party of Greece, but other than that...

[∞]

Is there even a Romanian party with that name?

But yeah, I can understand the confusion. I mean, it's not like we are getting many clues that this thread is about the Communist Party of Greece. Sure, the thread is located in a forum called The Situation in Greece and the first post contains a big banner that says Communist Party of Greece, but other than that...

IDK how I got them confused :S. At one point I even mentioned them being Greek. I think I got this confused with another thread.

[Wanted Man]

Fair enough. :p

There is indeed a thread about a Romanian communist party hovering around somewhere in this forum.

[bie]

KKE will not hand over lists with its supporters

“Through the bill of the Ministry of Interior on the expenditure of the candidates in the regional and local elections the government seeks to kill two birds with one stone” commented Aleka Papariga, General Secretary of the CC of KKE and added: “one the one hand, it seeks to beautify the political system that produces anti-people policies like those implemented nowadays and on the other, it seeks to inflict the political activity of KKE that opposes these policies”.

http://www1.rizospastis.gr/getImage.do?size=medium&id=266139&format=.jpg

This bill actually imposes to the parties to hand over the lists of their supporters to the bourgeois state under the pretext of the combat against “black money” in politics.

In her speech at the Parliament, Aleka Papariga reminded that in the past, KKE, its members, its cadres, its friends but also people who supported the party financially from the little they had, were sent to prison and exile. The General Secretary of the CC of KKE underlined that KKE will not comply with this law, that it won’t hand over the lists with the names of its contributors; it will continue the policy of collecting money through coupons and it will it not hand over the names of thousands of people who support it financially.

She added that this law “is fully in line with the proclamation of anticommunism to official ideology of the EU and the Europe in general” reminding the anti-communist decisions of the EU, the European Parliament as well as the Council of Europe.

[Qayin]

We Are An Image From The Future gave me all i need to know about the KKE

fuck them.

[Tiktaalik]

Oh my god, stop supporting those snitch ***** motherfuckers, you fucking liberalz!

Fuck the KKE, they're as big as a fucking problem in Greece as the pigs, fucking snitches.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

Not that I need to be convinced that they're anti-worker, but what evidence is there of the KKE being police informants?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Oh my god, stop supporting those snitch ***** motherfuckers, you fucking liberalz!

Fuck the KKE, they're as big as a fucking problem in Greece as the pigs, fucking snitches.

No one asked you to talk about the KKE. This forum pertains diverse sections of the revolutionary left, not just you anarchists. So if you don't support the KKE, then fuck off & post somewhere else in the forum. Let us, the supporters of the KKE, talk about them while you & your RAAN/Antifa buddies talk about whatever the fuck you want to talk about.

[Qayin]

No one asked you to talk about the KKE. This forum pertains diverse sections of the revolutionary left, not just you anarchists. So if you don't support the KKE, then fuck off & post somewhere else in the forum. Let us, the supporters of the KKE, talk about them while you & your RAAN/Antifa buddies talk about whatever the fuck you want to talk about.

KKE are snitchs

[The Vegan Marxist]

KKE are snitchs

Evidence?

[Magón]

Evidence?

Well I do believe, that before the Greek Civil War in the late 40s, the KKE did sell out the Greek Anarchists and secretly gave info on known Greek Anarchist leaders who were then taken by Greek National Police and shot here, there, and everywhere they could find them. The KKE did a lot of their own killing of Anarchists too, along with "anti-workers" in Greece.

The KKE is as backwards as the Red Russians double crossing the Anarchists and others there. It's not surprising really, the KKE and those like them have always been wanting to be the bosses when it's just not possible for them. The Greek Civil War showed this.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Well I do believe, that before the Greek Civil War in the late 40s, the KKE did sell out the Greek Anarchists and secretly gave info on known Greek Anarchist leaders who were then taken by Greek National Police and shot here, there, and everywhere they could find them. The KKE did a lot of their own killing of Anarchists too, along with "anti-workers" in Greece.

The KKE is as backwards as the Red Russians double crossing the Anarchists and others there. It's not surprising really, the KKE and those like them have always been wanting to be the bosses when it's just not possible for them. The Greek Civil War showed this.

This is essentially nothing more than propaganda until I get any confirmation to this, links, articles, books, etc.

[Magón]

This is essentially nothing more than propaganda until I get any confirmation to this, links, articles, books, etc.

LINK to the deaths of Trotskyists, Anarchists, and anyone else anti-Stalin and his reactionary views/actions. It just goes to prove, that not only in Spain, but Greece, the Stalinist approach fails to succeed outside of Russia, and that they must always be in charge of revolution, which doesn't help anything. (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jan2009/gree-j09.shtml) :rolleyes:


The KKE was created as a revolutionary party in 1918 in the wake of the Russian Revolution. But by the end of the 1920s, it was already completely under control of the Stalinist bureaucracy in Moscow. In the 1940s, the KKE developed its own secret police, the OPLA, which up to the end of the civil war abducted and murdered hundreds of Trotskyists who had opposed Stalin’s reactionary policies.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The list of their general secretaries on Wiki is pretty funny:


Nikolaos Dimitratos (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Nikolaos_Dimitratos&action=edit&redlink=1) (November 1918-). Expelled from the party on charges of "suspect behavior."
Yannis Kordatos (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Yannis_Kordatos&action=edit&redlink=1) (February 1922-). Expelled from the party on charges of "distorting Marxism."
Nikolaos Sargologos (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Nikolaos_Sargologos&action=edit&redlink=1) (November 1922-). Expelled from the party on charges of "espionage."
Thomas Apostolidis (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Thomas_Apostolidis&action=edit&redlink=1) (September 1923-). Expelled from the party on charges of "opportunism".
Pandelis Pouliopoulos (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Pandelis_Pouliopoulos) (December 1924-). Expelled from the party on charges of being a "provocateur".
Eleutherios Stavridis (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Eleutherios_Stavridis&action=edit&redlink=1) (1924–1926). Expelled from the party on charges of pro-bourgeoisie political position.
Pastias Giatsopoulos (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Pastias_Giatsopoulos&action=edit&redlink=1) (September 1926-). Expelled from the party on charges of "liquidarism".
Andronikos Haitas (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Andronikos_Haitas&action=edit&redlink=1) (March 1927-). Expelled from the party and executed in the USSR in 1935.
Nikolaos Zachariadis (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Nikolaos_Zachariadis) (1931–1936).
Andreas Tsipas (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Andreas_Tsipas) (July 1941-September 1941). Expelled from the party on charges of "adventurism."
Georgios Siantos (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Georgios_Siantos) (January 1942-1945). Expelled from the party on charges of being an "agent provocateur."
Nikolaos Zachariadis (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Nikolaos_Zachariadis) (1945–1956). Expelled from the party; committed suicide after years in exile in Siberia.

[Qayin]

This is essentially nothing more than propaganda until I get any confirmation to this, links, articles, books, etc.

We Are An Image From The Future
http://voidnetwork.blogspot.com/

After a talk with the Void network on there trip to Arizona they had alot to say about the KKE. They have put down anti-authoritarian demonstrations, unmasked and turn in anarchists during protests and notably the 2008 insurrection.

[Devrim]

The list of their general secretaries on Wiki is pretty funny:


Nikolaos Dimitratos (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Nikolaos_Dimitratos&action=edit&redlink=1) (November 1918-). Expelled from the party on charges of "suspect behavior."
Yannis Kordatos (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Yannis_Kordatos&action=edit&redlink=1) (February 1922-). Expelled from the party on charges of "distorting Marxism."
Nikolaos Sargologos (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Nikolaos_Sargologos&action=edit&redlink=1) (November 1922-). Expelled from the party on charges of "espionage."
Thomas Apostolidis (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Thomas_Apostolidis&action=edit&redlink=1) (September 1923-). Expelled from the party on charges of "opportunism".
Pandelis Pouliopoulos (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Pandelis_Pouliopoulos) (December 1924-). Expelled from the party on charges of being a "provocateur".
Eleutherios Stavridis (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Eleutherios_Stavridis&action=edit&redlink=1) (1924–1926). Expelled from the party on charges of pro-bourgeoisie political position.
Pastias Giatsopoulos (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Pastias_Giatsopoulos&action=edit&redlink=1) (September 1926-). Expelled from the party on charges of "liquidarism".
Andronikos Haitas (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Andronikos_Haitas&action=edit&redlink=1) (March 1927-). Expelled from the party and executed in the USSR in 1935.
Nikolaos Zachariadis (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Nikolaos_Zachariadis) (1931–1936).
Andreas Tsipas (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Andreas_Tsipas) (July 1941-September 1941). Expelled from the party on charges of "adventurism."
Georgios Siantos (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Georgios_Siantos) (January 1942-1945). Expelled from the party on charges of being an "agent provocateur."
Nikolaos Zachariadis (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Nikolaos_Zachariadis) (1945–1956). Expelled from the party; committed suicide after years in exile in Siberia.



Zachariadis who you don't mention being expelled was also expelled from the party in 1957.

Devrim

[The Douche]

No one asked you to talk about the KKE. This forum pertains diverse sections of the revolutionary left, not just you anarchists. So if you don't support the KKE, then fuck off & post somewhere else in the forum. Let us, the supporters of the KKE, talk about them while you & your RAAN/Antifa buddies talk about whatever the fuck you want to talk about.

AKA fuck off if you don't say things I want to hear.


The truth is the truth, whether it comes from an anarchist a maoist, or a capitalist.

[Magón]

We Are An Image From The Future
http://voidnetwork.blogspot.com/

After a talk with the Void network on there trip to Arizona they had alot to say about the KKE. They have put down anti-authoritarian demonstrations, unmasked and turn in anarchists during protests and notably the 2008 insurrection.

And a some of those Anarchist Demonstrations from what I've read, were escalated by the KKE through violent and forcible means, when they came in force themselves and started fights with the Anarchists demonstrators.

[Tiktaalik]

No one asked you to talk about the KKE. This forum pertains diverse sections of the revolutionary left, not just you anarchists. So if you don't support the KKE, then fuck off & post somewhere else in the forum. Let us, the supporters of the KKE, talk about them while you & your RAAN/Antifa buddies talk about whatever the fuck you want to talk about.

First off, you don't tell me what to do, not now, not ever. You understand that, asshole? Don't fucking try telling me what to do on this forum, Mr. Internet Revolutionary. I'll diss the KKE all I fucking want.

Secondly, you support a pack of snitch rats who do everything in their power to claim any action in Greece as their own. So go piss up a rope you fucking liberal.

[28350]

Gentlemen, gentlemen!
You can't fight here!
This is the war room!

Also,
DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN AND CAN'T DO!

[Honggweilo]

is it just me or is the month august a magnet for sectarian keyboard warriors clodding up any decent debate every year, while in the meantime real life productive activists are taking a healthy break?

srsly, will the arrogant bohemians of teh intarweb , despite tendency, find another place for one-liner post trolling, maybe chit-chat or OI?


First off, you don't tell me what to do, not now, not ever. You understand that, asshole? Don't fucking try telling me what to do on this forum, Mr. Internet Revolutionary. I'll diss the KKE all I fucking want.

Secondly, you support a pack of snitch rats who do everything in their power to claim any action in Greece as their own. So go piss up a rope you fucking liberal.

I'll snitch on whiney bored liberal richboys who let themselves be used as provocateurs anyday, not class-struggle anarchists, just the archetypical assholes like you... because, how can you snitch on someone who is doing the people who you snitch them out to a favour? gtfo with your teenage ridden angst punk

see what i did there? i turned it into a flamefest, oh snap! are you going to take that shit? :rolleyes:

[Ravachol]

Let us, the supporters of the KKE, talk about them while you & your RAAN/Antifa buddies talk about whatever the fuck you want to talk about.

What does the Antifa have to do with anything here... :blink:

[Delenda Carthago]

17th November 1998.Annual demostration for the students uprise against the military Junta.

KNE's members are "guarding" the demostration against "agent provocateurs of the state",by...smashing them together with the riot cops!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4cbTljoRsw&feature=related



Communist Youth of Public Order Restoration

PS.The most funny shit is,that when the students uprise took place in 1973,KNE said that they were the "300 agent provocateurs" and tryed to stop it...Now they are "guarding" the demostation in honour of these 300 "provocateurs",against the...nowdays "agent provocateurs"!!!


LONG LIVE THE KKE!

[thälmann]

ok, but this video proves nothing...

[Black Sheep]

KNE's members are "guarding" the demostration
Guarding the demostration against the "provocateurs", part II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2bd8i4Iq5U

[The Douche]

I'll snitch on whiney bored liberal richboys who let themselves be used as provocateurs anyday, not class-struggle anarchists, just the archetypical assholes like you... because, how can you snitch on someone who is doing the people who you snitch them out to a favour? gtfo with your teenage ridden angst punk

Isn't this behavior inappropriate for a mod? You think snitching is something to just joke about? (I assume you're joking/exaggerating)

[commi11]

I do think that the kke has taken some of the right steps in the situation that it has been presented with, but i also think the the kke should take more deciisive action in response to the clear and dire need for a new a form of government across europe and the world, especially when it has the clear backing of the people. the situation presents its self and the conditions are correct for revolution in any form be it democratically or by the force of a proletariat revolution. this situation is mirrored in spain and neither nations cummunists, in my view, have taken strong enough action despite perfect opertunities.

[Honggweilo]

Isn't this behavior inappropriate for a mod? You think snitching is something to just joke about? (I assume you're joking/exaggerating)

If your assuming every report about snitching is correct, i dont endorse ratting people out to cops (which is total bullcrap since the police force sees much bigger threat in the KKE/KNE). I do endorse keeping real provocateurs (and dont pretend they dont excist, even alot of people in anarchists circles are aware of them) out of our demonstrations and action, by the same way they try to disurpt ours, by our OWN security bodies (and no that does not mean every single anarchist, neither does the KKE).

For some reason people here dont seem to get the active tactics of divide and conquer and false flag tactics of the system.

The thing that pissed me off are that some people here are just taking up empty assumtions on small reports and then claim to have a coherent global analysis on what is happening in greece today. I'm myself am not greek, but i know an extensive network of people from the KNE and some greek anarchists, plus having alot of comrades going to greece on a regular basis. I may not have as an groundlevel insight on the situation as FSL or AttackGR for example, but im not claiming otherwise or acting like i do.

Bottomline, keep your tendecy wars to yourself if you're not able to engage in any reasonable discussion and have nothing more to report then "lol KKE are allies of the state, stop snitch'n bro"

http://www.classicalvalues.com/StopSnitchinTees.jpg

[Honggweilo]

also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBKyVSaHHPA

i can post youtube clips without context too you know

[Delenda Carthago]

If your assuming every report about snitching is correct, i dont endorse ratting people out to cops (which is total bullcrap since the police force sees much bigger threat in the KKE/KNE). I

yeah...

http://athens.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/police-applaud_1595036i.jpg

cops and KKE members applauding each other in a strike demo two months ago...

[Delenda Carthago]

ok, but this video proves nothing...

keep telling yourself...

[Honggweilo]

yeah...

http://athens.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/police-applaud_1595036i.jpg

cops and KKE members applauding each other in a strike demo two months ago...

hahahaha you are really something arent you? striking cops showing solidarity with other strikers?? its PAME, not KKE, a TRADE UNION.... i mean i would only applaud that SOME cops are starting to see their own position in society, something we have never claimed to oppose. We for one dont have bi-polar analysises on everything like "everything or nothing", "every religeous person is an outright reactionary", "if someone has one flaw, he is inherently a reactionary", and also "cops cant have doubts and are all bastards". And what does this picture prove other some striking cops being in solidarity with strikers? The KKE being a party that supports crackdowns on anti-austerity demonstrations? joining hand in breaking up their own strikes? provocating their own party?... If you want to live in a world where everything is this black and white, so be it, but dont be suprised if people eventually get tired of this deadend road you're proposing.

If all of this is snitching, im guilty of snitching too, and fucking proud of it. Great that we finally got that cleared up.

[Honggweilo]

AttackGR logic;

http://gallatingalleries.com/shows/gaf/images/content/trixie_kissingshieldaaa.jpg

Oh look its an Anarchist CIRCA clown kissing a cop!

COINCIDENCE??? I THINK NOT!!! STOP SNITCHING!

[Charles Xavier]

Agent Provocateurs are cops dumb asses. So how is fighting undercovers counter-revolutionary?

[The Vegan Marxist]

First off, you don't tell me what to do, not now, not ever. You understand that, asshole? Don't fucking try telling me what to do on this forum, Mr. Internet Revolutionary. I'll diss the KKE all I fucking want.

Secondly, you support a pack of snitch rats who do everything in their power to claim any action in Greece as their own. So go piss up a rope you fucking liberal.

Yeah & what the fuck you going to do? Huh? It's amazing how much shit you can talk behind a fucking computer. I don't have to deal with your anarcho-bullshit. So fuck off.

[Black Sheep]

Agent Provocateurs are cops dumb asses. So how is fighting undercovers counter-revolutionary?
It's not a matter of revolutionary-ism.It is a matter of solidarity.
When KKE characterizes the whole anarchist political space as "undercover provocateurs".
In a nutshell it's typical stalinist viewpoint on other parties/organizations.
Everyone else is provocateur/opportunist/delusional and counterrevolutionary.
Black n white.

[this is an invasion]

It's amazing how much shit you can talk behind a fucking computer.

Dude, I totally agree. Apparently it's entirely possible to post 2550 posts of shit from behind a computer. Really quite astounding, and all of that since only January! Goddamn.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

i can post youtube clips without context too you know

Because it's SO hard to figure out the context of a group of people with anarchist flags and a group of people with socialist flags violently attacking each other.

Oh right, the anarchists were just cops in disguise. My mistake.

[bcbm]

hahaha wow this thread is great

[black magick hustla]

hahaha wow this thread is great

i told you so man. best thread in revleft

[Qayin]

but still fuck the KKE

[Delenda Carthago]

hahahaha you are really something arent you? striking cops showing solidarity with other strikers?? its PAME, not KKE, a TRADE UNION.... i mean i would only applaud that SOME cops are starting to see their own position in society, something we have never claimed to oppose. We for one dont have bi-polar analysises on everything like "everything or nothing", "every religeous person is an outright reactionary", "if someone has one flaw, he is inherently a reactionary", and also "cops cant have doubts and are all bastards". And what does this picture prove other some striking cops being in solidarity with strikers? The KKE being a party that supports crackdowns on anti-austerity demonstrations? joining hand in breaking up their own strikes? provocating their own party?... If you want to live in a world where everything is this black and white, so be it, but dont be suprised if people eventually get tired of this deadend road you're proposing.

If all of this is snitching, im guilty of snitching too, and fucking proud of it. Great that we finally got that cleared up.
Dont try to outsmart me.I was a member of KNE and I know perfectly well the difference between PAME and KKE:politicaly NONE.
If you choose to be in PAME,you have to accept the whole package:KKE-KNE-PKS-SASA.

Matter of fact,nowdays that KKE is firing people by the tens in Typoekdotiki(press company owned by KKE),PAME says fuckin nothing!When people are getting fired by other capitalists,PAME is fighting for their re-hire, when KKE is firing people,PAME shuts the fuck up.

Other than that KKE has an antistalinist and antileninist stance on the police issue,which is something that even other greek stalinist parties are mentioning:instead of promoting the idea of social militia which every member of the society gets to be part of,they are trying to promote the concept of "democratise" the police of the bourgeois state!And that is because they are not stalinist,actually they are socialfascist,keeping the revizionist line of Brezniev.And while you are trying to defend them,your own socialfascist origins are becoming obvious to us.

[Honggweilo]

Dont try to outsmart me.I was a member of KNE and I know perfectly well the difference between PAME and KKE:politicaly NONE.
If you choose to be in PAME,you have to accept the whole package:KKE-KNE-PKS-SASA.

Matter of fact,nowdays that KKE is firing people by the tens in Typoekdotiki(press company owned by KKE),PAME says fuckin nothing!When people are getting fired by other capitalists,PAME is fighting for their re-hire, when KKE is firing people,PAME shuts the fuck up.

Other than that KKE has an antistalinist and antileninist stance on the police issue,which is something that even other greek stalinist parties are mentioning:instead of promoting the idea of social militia which every member of the society gets to be part of,they are trying to promote the concept of "democratise" the police of the bourgeois state!And that is because they are not stalinist,actually they are socialfascist,keeping the revizionist line of Brezniev.And while you are trying to defend them,your own socialfascist origins are becoming obvious to us.

oh so its an old grudge then? explains alot!

PAME organizes general strikes, occupies workplaces, mobilizes millions BUT THEY ARE FIRING PEOPLE IN THE TENS!!!!!!!one!!!11

even if they did, you're placing no fucking context, and no one has to be a KKE member to be a PAME member.

tell me, how many workers have you mobilized today, how many workplaces have you seized? (burning money symbolically doesnt count) instead you join hands with the general bourgeois offensive against the most active and militant class-struggle union in europe. talk about the horseshoe effect of reformism and the ultra-left (including the "anti-revisionist" "lets beg PASOK for less intensive austerity measures" KOE).

Also dont educate me on what the political stance of the KKE is, especially when you try to "emulate" "stalinist" criticism of revisionism (i mean socialfascist XD?? welcome in the 1930's), thats just hilarious :lol:. Ofcourse the KKE is joining hands with the police force, who wants to force them to open up their membership records for prosecution, just because they are each others BFF's :rolleyes: .Besides that every single line in that explaination is 100% bullshit.. have you even read their congres pieces? Believe me i have acces to information that you dont, and i'm not impressed by a whiney kid with authority problems trying to get back at the KNE. The "im greek, so i must be right" card is getting old.

but ill play along

AFTER THE EVIL SECRET ORTODOX CHRISTIAN SOCIAL FASCIST CONSPIRACY WITH NATIONAL BOURGEOISIE, ALL ANARCHO-TROTS WILL SUFFER OVER 9000 ICEPICKS IN THE GULAG, WE WILL BURY YOU!!!!one1

ok i'm done flaming, good luck derailing this thread even further :lol:

[Honggweilo]

It's not a matter of revolutionary-ism.It is a matter of solidarity.
When KKE characterizes the whole anarchist political space as "undercover provocateurs".
In a nutshell it's typical stalinist viewpoint on other parties/organizations.
Everyone else is provocateur/opportunist/delusional and counterrevolutionary.
Black n white.

And everyone who supports the KKE/PAME is a authoritarian/piglover/reformist/sellout (thats a pretty large portion of the greek working-class)

pot, kettle

if you read my previous post, it should have been clear that i dont characterize every anarchist as a provocateur (hell i'm even doing volountary work for anarcho-syndicalists here, which includes greek anarchists) , neither does my organisation. I'm not pretty fond of lifestylists posing as new-age'ish insurrectionist types, true.. but i have always critized anyone who blindly condemns everyone into an easy derogative box (i.e i dont agree with Charles Xaviers one-line labels most of the time)

[Fietsketting]

but i have always critized anyone who blindly condemns everyone into an easy derogative box (i.e i dont agree with Charles Xaviers one-line labels most of the time)

If Charles makes a post i imagine him sitting at his computer desk, big red flag over his shoulder and the picture of Stalin smiling down on him to guide his fingers on the keyboard... :D

[Delenda Carthago]

oh so its an old grudge then? explains alot!

PAME organizes general strikes, occupies workplaces, mobilizes millions BUT THEY ARE FIRING PEOPLE IN THE TENS!!!!!!!one!!!11

even if they did, you're placing no fucking context, and no one has to be a KKE member to be a PAME member.

tell me, how many workers have you mobilized today, how many workplaces have you seized? (burning money symbolically doesnt count) instead you join hands with the general bourgeois offensive against the most active and militant class-struggle union in europe. talk about the horseshoe effect of reformism and the ultra-left (including the "anti-revisionist" "lets beg PASOK for less intensive austerity measures" KOE).

Also dont educate me on what the political stance of the KKE is, especially when you try to "emulate" "stalinist" criticism of revisionism (i mean socialfascist XD?? welcome in the 1930's), thats just hilarious :lol:. Ofcourse the KKE is joining hands with the police force, who wants to force them to open up their membership records for prosecution, just because they are each others BFF's :rolleyes: .Besides that every single line in that explaination is 100% bullshit.. have you even read their congres pieces? Believe me i have acces to information that you dont, and i'm not impressed by a whiney kid with authority problems trying to get back at the KNE. The "im greek, so i must be right" card is getting old.

but ill play along

AFTER THE EVIL SECRET ORTODOX CHRISTIAN SOCIAL FASCIST CONSPIRACY WITH NATIONAL BOURGEOISIE, ALL ANARCHO-TROTS WILL SUFFER OVER 9000 ICEPICKS IN THE GULAG, WE WILL BURY YOU!!!!one1

ok i'm done flaming, good luck derailing this thread even further :lol:
You have information that I dont huh?:lol:

Lets see,one by one...

A.Is KKE firing people?No,the Scumbag Reflex tells us:
https://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=1201594

For those of you who doesnt know greek,I ll translate:

20 workers got fired in July,and another 20 are going to get fired in September.Where is the Federation of Workers in the Press and Paper Indusrty(controled by PAME)?Why dont they defend the workers against the bosses?Why dont they close down the bussiness like they do in other cases?Why dont they at least call for a strike?

"The class strugle will continue even in socialism,until the destruction of the state" said Lenin.Where is that in KKE?They dont even let the workers strike before they got the power.

What is the party's answer to all that?"Typoekdotiki doesnt have workers,Typoekdotiki has communist fighters that will get fired if thats whats best for the struggle"!


And I dare you to prove me wrong on everything I said.

B.You are mocking a Stalin's phrase?You dont aprove the term "socialfascist"?You think its outdated?Weird.Because KKE SUPPOSED TO reconstruct Stalin in its last congress in 2008!So you are defending a party who you think its outdated...Okz...

C.I have a lot of workers mobilized.In first degree unions that are truly democratic-unlike PAME.Matter of fact,one of them is created for the workers in press and paper industry because many workers felt that the already excisting union(the one mentioned in A) wasnt good enough.And,that union has stopped in the last 4 years of its excistence more that 15 firings-thats like a 90% of all the firings the bosses tryed the last years.Anybody can see the difference.

D.Like a typical scum that you are,you try to equalise the critic from the right that someone might apply on KKE with the critic from the left that anarchists and leftists might do on your precious party.Like there is no difference to the reasons that a capitalist and an anarchist will opose KKE. The fact that you dont accept critisism only verifys the fact that you are a socialfascist.

E.Oh I m a "white boy" huh?Because I apply critic on "your precious"?Whoever has something to say that you may not like is a rich white boy,an armchair revolutionary,an agent provocateur etc right socialfascist?

[Delenda Carthago]

And everyone who supports the KKE/PAME is a authoritarian/piglover/reformist/sellout (thats a pretty large portion of the greek working-class)

pot, kettle

if you read my previous post, it should have been clear that i dont characterize every anarchist as a provocateur (hell i'm even doing volountary work for anarcho-syndicalists here, which includes greek anarchists) , neither does my organisation. I'm not pretty fond of lifestylists posing as new-age'ish insurrectionist types, true.. but i have always critized anyone who blindly condemns everyone into an easy derogative box (i.e i dont agree with Charles Xaviers one-line labels most of the time)
no.actually KKE have a lot of real communists,real democratic fighters in its classes that are trapped in the revisionist leadership of KKE.And noone said that KKE has only bad points.KKE has given hunders of fights for the working class,something that I have said in here many many times.Does that means that we have to accept it like it is,wrong or right?When the defence of the party becomes the primarly target,instead of the working class,thats where things gets twisted.We have to be very hard on our critics(as long as we are aiming to improve our allys)that we do on our allys,because thats the way they will get better.Unfortunatly,KKE has shown many times that its ears are sealed.

[Honggweilo]

B.You are mocking a Stalin's phrase?You dont aprove the term "socialfascist"?You think its outdated?Weird.Because KKE SUPPOSED TO reconstruct Stalin in its last congress in 2008!So you are defending a party who you think its outdated...Okz...

Oh wow, i disagree with something Stalin said! how shocking! maybe we dont view the man as a demi-god, and neither does the KKE. I know about the analysis of the history of the communist movment of the KKE, which i support. You are totally missing my point here and have no clue about the term of social-fascism, which is not... here it comes... a fucking dogma we cling to, and never accepted as a universal truth. the term comes from a congres of the comitern and was first used by Georgi Dimitrov, not Stalin. It refers to the economic model of corporatism both present in both social-democracy and fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism) (which btw, almost everyone agrees upon). This analysis was made in the 1930's in a time where fascism was still evolving. Prove to me where the KKE states they want to retain a national bourgeois system, and dont start to quote me minimum-program demands, i'm talking about ideological pieces or statements where they are content with bourgeois parlementary capitalism. Dont give me shit about how the KKE wants to have a system in which financial capitalists, industrial capitalists and workers work towards the same goal for the benefit "of the nation", like PASOK does, THATS social-fascism. The KKE is taking a strategy of a unity front with progressive ellements in society for the same goals, and builds bridges where it can. Just because they ignore the small marginal ultra-left parties, which is there given right since they are dissolving themselves through inner bickering, doesnt mean they dont have ears for anyone (if anything, they're very to tollerable to a broad strata of society). Just because they dont feel a revolutionary victory is imminent, or that the social struggle doesnt have alot of dynamics, doesnt mean they are isolated from society, it means they work to set their priorities.


C.I have a lot of workers mobilized.In first degree unions that are truly democratic-unlike PAME.Matter of fact,one of them is created for the workers in press and paper industry because many workers felt that the already excisting union(the one mentioned in A) wasnt good enough.And,that union has stopped in the last 4 years of its excistence more that 15 firings-thats like a 90% of all the firings the bosses tryed the last years.Anybody can see the difference. Ok fair enough, any proof? which union? did they keep their jobs, did you collectivise and disown the workplace? or did they face this same bitter reality that a revolution isnt a instant orgasmic linear proces forward but has tactical shifts of progres and setbacks, and that there are more dynamics in place then just striking for the heck of it? and if you collectivise, how are they going to compete as a co-operative in a capitalist framework? are workers getting a striking-wage? where are those resources coming from? are workers going to get dissolusioned with class struggle when they dont see direct results? these are question that make these issues complex and you cant dismiss a setback as "oh lol compromise!"


D.Like a typical scum that you are,you try to equalise the critic from the right that someone might apply on KKE with the critic from the left that anarchists and leftists might do on your precious party.Like there is no difference to the reasons that a capitalist and an anarchist will opose KKE. The fact that you dont accept critisism only verifys the fact that you are a socialfascist. Hey, i might be "scum" for saying that attacking PAME with almost the same rethoric as the established order damages class-struggle, but how does that me remotely make me a "social-fascist" XD, that just proves you have no fucking clue what the term means. If we were social-fascists, we would embrace social compromise with the national bourgeoisie and the austerity measures and the established order, and not equate you to them. I'm not equating anyone to anyone, i'm just stating that capitalism has alot to gain from the ultra-left vividly attacking the KKE, more then they attack the system (again not talking about all anarchists, i'm more refering to SYRIZA)


E.Oh I m a "white boy" huh?Because I apply critic on "your precious"?Whoever has something to say that you may not like is a rich white boy,an armchair revolutionary,an agent provocateur etc right socialfascist? As a dyslectic, i can understand the reading error, but srsly, read before you respond; i said whiney, not white, nor did i call you an armchair revolutionary, nor did i call you a social-fascist, i only hinted about how your attacks on the KKE are counterproductive.

In the meanwhile, you called me a social fascist, scum, a revisionist, a snitch, ect.. so dont try to blame me for being a petty dogmatic here, im just being overly sarcastic and a bit of an ass :lol:


Does that means that we have to accept it like it is,wrong or right?When the defence of the party becomes the primarly target,instead of the working class,thats where things gets twisted. I'm not saying people should be uncritical of anything, i just dont agree on the way you deal with criticism and what you are criticing. I do have me criticism on the KKE when it comes to some cultural issues, but i'm not dismissing them over that. I dont see how you interpret these minor reports of incidents (which i cant read and verify through sources, so ill leave it at that, and to be fair i will read in to them if they containt truth) make the KKE a party that focusses on their own defence instead of the defence of the working class. As a matter of fact you cant seperate the two since the defamation of the right of the KKE is aimed at striking a blow the militancy of the working class movement; if they break KKE, they'll break PAME, and we will have the social-compromising ("social-fascists" lol) cowards of GSEE back in control. I personally dont know much about the activity of anarcho-syndicalist trade unions in greece, but they are not nearly as organised, and a blow for the KKE wil have a major effect of the class-concience of alot of people, which is not unconditional... class-struggle anarchists will suffer from this too, dont try to deny that.

[Honggweilo]

sidenote:


Myself active as a cadre in a Paper and Press union (http://www.fnvkiem.nl/) (and being a part-time printer) i know the extremely difficult situation the sector is in, also due to the fact that alot of its work is being replaced digitally (a technological issue, not perse a economic issue, though capitalist printing is largely dependent on commercial advertising printing, and is one of the first sectors devastated by a crisis, especially now). yet we are focussing on getting people re-scholed in DTP with full pay of the employers. The sad fact is that it is a extremly difficult sector to organize due to its organic decline of its importance, and also the forced capitalist cultural hegemony model of "freelancers" and decentralized workplaces. Also because bulk producing can be outsourced to eastern-europe and digital work can be outsources to any place on earth. This is a problem we still need to create an effective sollution and strategy for... Even if you would try to keep a company like this running when collectivised within in a capitalist system, it would still have trouble even surving to provide basic production value to sustain its workers.

[Die Neue Zeit]

If your assuming every report about snitching is correct, i dont endorse ratting people out to cops (which is total bullcrap since the police force sees much bigger threat in the KKE/KNE). I do endorse keeping real provocateurs (and dont pretend they dont excist, even alot of people in anarchists circles are aware of them) out of our demonstrations and action, by the same way they try to disurpt ours, by our OWN security bodies (and no that does not mean every single anarchist, neither does the KKE).

Snitching is quite different from handing over. The KKE doesn't have secret agents in hooligan (not anarchist like anarcho-syndicalist) organizations.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Other than that KKE has an antistalinist and antileninist stance on the police issue,which is something that even other greek stalinist parties are mentioning:instead of promoting the idea of social militia which every member of the society gets to be part of,they are trying to promote the concept of "democratise" the police of the bourgeois state!And that is because they are not stalinist,actually they are socialfascist,keeping the revizionist line of Brezniev.And while you are trying to defend them,your own socialfascist origins are becoming obvious to us.

So Marx and Guesde were "revisionists" for advocating "The Commune to be master of its administration and its police" in their Program of the French Workers Party? (http://www.revleft.com/vb/full-communal-power-t140631/index.html)

[Delenda Carthago]

A.The term "socialfascism" came back by the revolutionaries communists during the revizionist brezhnevist era of the Soviet Union,as back then the whole idea of "national unity" came back in the sence that working class "had to" collaborate with the nomeclature in the name of the great "Soviet nation".KKE's political identity is not stalinist,is something between Krushchev and Brezhnev.

B.What do you need proof for?Dont you know better than me?You dont know about the first degree unions in Greece?The "I live here,I know better" card you talked about...

Anyways,I have post numerous posts about the first degree unions.

C.I NEVER said that it would be better even for us if there wasn no KKE at all.Class struggle in Greece,even in forms that KKE is against,is very much influenced by KKE.For example,I may be anarcho syndicalist today,but I remember where I found my first class consciousness in KKE.Its about constructive critisism.I have said it before,if KKE was more democratic(WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY NOT)it would have my support too.

[Delenda Carthago]

sidenote:


Myself active as a cadre in a Paper and Press union (http://www.fnvkiem.nl/) (and being a part-time printer) i know the extremely difficult situation the sector is in, also due to the fact that alot of its work is being replaced digitally (a technological issue, not perse a economic issue, though capitalist printing is largely dependent on commercial advertising printing, and is one of the first sectors devastated by a crisis, especially now). yet we are focussing on getting people re-scholed in DTP with full pay of the employers. The sad fact is that it is a extremly difficult sector to organize due to its organic decline of its importance, and also the forced capitalist cultural hegemony model of "freelancers" and decentralized workplaces. Also because bulk producing can be outsourced to eastern-europe and digital work can be outsources to any place on earth. This is a problem we still need to create an effective sollution and strategy for... Even if you would try to keep a company like this running when collectivised within in a capitalist system, it would still have trouble even surving to provide basic production value to sustain its workers.
sure...

[Delenda Carthago]

So Marx and Guesde were "revisionists" for advocating "The Commune to be master of its administration and its police" in their Program of the French Workers Party? (http://www.revleft.com/vb/full-communal-power-t140631/index.html)
No.Lenin,Stalin and Trotsky were ulrta leftists for wanting to promote the idea of state destruction through the disarm of police and giving power to the people's militia...

[Os Cangaceiros]

Snitching is quite different from handing over. The KKE doesn't have secret agents in hooligan (not anarchist like anarcho-syndicalist) organizations.

So it's OK to hand over comrades to the authorities as long as they meet your "hooligan" definition?

[Honggweilo]

A.The term "socialfascism" came back by the revolutionaries communists during the revizionist brezhnevist era of the Soviet Union,as back then the whole idea of "national unity" came back in the sence that working class "had to" collaborate with the nomeclature in the name of the great "Soviet nation".KKE's political identity is not stalinist,is something between Krushchev and Brezhnev.

Ok first you say that i dont agree with Stalin's vision of social-fascism, and cant because the KKE is revitalizing the evil Stalin, so i shouldnt support the KKE. Then you use some vague arguement that some people called breznevite USSR social-fascist (i.e a veeeeeery marginal group, most hoxhaists and maoists called it social-imperialist) en therefore im not a true "stalinist". For your information i'm still an anti-revisionist and i agree with the gradual restoration of capitalism (or more correctly in the case of breznev, keep the already capitalist ellements and restorements in "stasis") in the Soviet Union, and the misuses of of the international communist movement for geopolitical gains.. so does the KKE. But now im confused, are you using orthodox "stalinist" rethoric to attack the KKE?


B.What do you need proof for?Dont you know better than me?You dont know about the first degree unions in Greece?The "I live here,I know better" card you talked about...

Anyways,I have post numerous posts about the first degree unions.

Someone is butthurt.. you started the whole "you're not greek, you cant know what is going on" shit. On the other hand i never claimed to know everything, im just letting you know the things i do know. But instead of being all l childish about it, posting a link to your posts would be handy.. instead of just claiming things. But if your goal is just to have a petty arguement with me, instead of productive debate, thats fine too.

sure...

well you got me there, that is one hell of coherent rebutation of my arguement my dear chap! i'm flabberghasted!

do you think i'm making this shit up or something or you just dont care about syndicalism?


C.I NEVER said that it would be better even for us if there wasn no KKE at all.Class struggle in Greece,even in forms that KKE is against,is very much influenced by KKE.For example,I may be anarcho syndicalist today,but I remember where I found my first class consciousness in KKE.Its about constructive critisism.I have said it before,if KKE was more democratic(WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY NOT)it would have my support too I never insinuated you did, it was a question. Well this is the best thing you wrote in this thread so far, all i can say thats a matter of opinion.

[Honggweilo]

No.Lenin,Stalin and Trotsky were ulrta leftists for wanting to promote the idea of state destruction through the disarm of police and giving power to the people's militia...

and none of them recruited from, like say, the footsoldiers/underofficers in the army and ordinary disgrunted policemen if they got the oppertunity to win them on their side? The KKE is already busy finding militant structures for a possbile escalated situation, and nowhere are they proposing incorporating the current policeforce, including chiefs, lackeys, judges and bureacrats into that. Dont you think some underpayed grunts (aka meatbags) are getting tired of being thrown in the frontline, eating bricks, fighting against people who are fucked the same way as their families are?

[Honggweilo]

So it's OK to hand over comrades to the authorities as long as they meet your "hooligan" definition?

well if he wants to hand over people who fit his "hooligan" definition, then they are probably not his comrades are they :lol:

[What Would Durruti Do?]

the most active and militant class-struggle union in europe.

you almost made that sound impressive. but now i'm just depressed

[black magick hustla]

the kke blows

[black magick hustla]

long live the kke

[What Would Durruti Do?]

the kke blows

off to room 101 with you

NEVER CRITICIZE THE PARTY

[Black Sheep]

oh so its an old grudge then? explains alot! That was extremely pathetic.


And everyone who supports the KKE/PAME is a authoritarian/piglover/reformist/sellout (thats a pretty large portion of the greek working-class)Nope.You'll find that criticism to KKE is levels of quality ahead of KKE's "criticism" to other political groups.With regard to quality.And honesty.



if you read my previous post, it should have been clear that i dont characterize every anarchist as a provocateur (hell i'm even doing volountary work for anarcho-syndicalists here, which includes greek anarchists) , neither does my organisation. I'm not pretty fond of lifestylists posing as new-age'ish insurrectionist types, true.. but i have always critized anyone who blindly condemns everyone into an easy derogative box (i.e i dont agree with Charles Xaviers one-line labels most of the time) I wasn't talking about you neither your organization,but about KKE's stance and attitude to the rest of the left and to anarchism.

[Honggweilo]

you almost made that sound impressive. but now i'm just depressed

since when does RAAN care about syndicalism anyway?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I keep misreading the thread title as "long live the KKK".

[Honggweilo]

That was extremely pathetic.

ad-hominems and one line attacks tends to lower my level of decency


Nope.You'll find that criticism to KKE is levels of quality ahead of KKE's "criticism" to other political groups.With regard to quality.And honesty.

Well i have yet to see that kind of quality of criticism in these last few pages apperantly

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Yeah & what the fuck you going to do? Huh? It's amazing how much shit you can talk behind a fucking computer. I don't have to deal with your anarcho-bullshit. So fuck off.
That's funny. You have 2,500 posts since January (average of 11 a day) and your 98 blog entries. Plus, all your youtube videos. Do you even manage to get off the computer whenever you're not defending your shitty statism? Or do you think the proletariat will be emancipated via THE INTERWEBZ?

Edit: just to make this post relevant: Fuck the KKE. I'm sure there are honest and hard working members, but the entire leadership is shit.

[Honggweilo]

yo dawg.. i herd you liek the KKE... the KKE is whack yo, they be snitchin and shit. there be like brothers up in there keepin it real but the big G's they be trippin!

srsly, brix were shat today, but i give up XD. let someone else continue this flaming group monologue :p

[What Would Durruti Do?]

since when does RAAN care about syndicalism anyway?

Sorry, I haven't been issued my membership papers and manifesto yet. I hope I'm not too terribly reprimanded by the leadership.