Taxes

[JAH23]

I'm not sure if there's already a thread about this...

As a leftist, should we support the American Tax System? It kills me to think my money is fueling imperialistic wars, but at the same time, my tax dollars could be paying for a sick person's medicare, or a working family's welfare. Should we view the tax system from a materialistic standpoint, such as that it pays for America's capitalist wars and the thousands of lives that are lost? Or, from a matter of principle- our hard earned money is contributed to society and for the benefit of all. Also, how would taxes be implemented in a socialist society after the revolution? Money cannot be abolished overnight, so we must have some sort of plan for redistribution of wealth.

[x371322]

First of all, tax dollars (like all money) should ideally be managed democratically by the workers. In other words, what we as taxpayers want for society is what that money should be spent on. That should weed out the potential for taxes to go to unnecessary wars and whatnot. One thing working taxpayers really don't have in the US, and other imperialist/capitalist nations, is a voice. In fact it's typically those who pay the least taxes, (the rich), who seem to have the loudest voice... which is bullshit.

As far as taxes in our society today... I guess I'd say they're a necessary evil. Like you already pointed out, I hate that tax dollars go to imperialist wars, but on the other hand they are used in medicare, public infrastructure, welfare, and various other programs I'd hate to do damage to by not paying taxes. A better way is undoubtedly needed though.

[which doctor]

In fact it's typically those who pay the least taxes, (the rich), who seem to have the loudest voice... which is bullshit.
This isn't true. The top 10th percentile in terms of income, pay something like half of all the total income tax revenue. The rich definitely pay a lot more money in taxes.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

This isn't true. The top 10th percentile in terms of income, pay something like half of all the total income tax revenue. The rich definitely pay a lot more money in taxes.

But I think if you consider it proportionally, low-income people are paying a larger portion of their taxable income. That's to say the tax system is regressive rather than progressive. In this sense, the rich aren't paying their "fair share."

[Argument]

This isn't true. The top 10th percentile in terms of income, pay something like half of all the total income tax revenue. The rich definitely pay a lot more money in taxes.You forget that the rich usually get rich because of state given privileges and subsides.

There are two big problems with taxes. The first one is that it isn't very anarchistic, stealing someones money is using coercion against that person. Taxes should be voluntary, and if they're voluntary, they're not taxes anymore.

The second problem is that taxes help fuel the capitalistic system, and the state's oppression of the people. Without taxes, how would the state pay for all its oppression, coercion, all it's privileges and aid for the capitalists? Sure, taxes pay for some things the people use, but it's not as if they wouldn't have gotten these things much cheaper in a socialist anarchist society.

Taxation is robbery and help fuel the capitalist system and the state. Eventually, they should be abolished.

[Tablo]

Fuck taxes. We don't need currency. Burn it all.

[Catillina]

Well, I the Taxes arent as bad as that(I'm speeking right now for my country, Luxembourg, not America), and should be raised(for the riches)
It helps the State build Infrastructures, Education AND Medical Care, which, in my opinion is necessary to do! The State in Luxembourg is wearing an huge amount of medical care.
But Luxembourg is social-liberal, nothing to compare with America.
There the medical system is fucked up, and it's needed to be reformed(right now by Obama), which is a good thing, but still not enough.

A Problem that I'm asking to myself is: Are taxes better, or sales taxes?
I think Sales Taxes are a bad thing, because poor people have to pay them exactly as the riches do, whereas taxes are customized to your income.

[Ismail]

FWIW, Albania considered taxation exploitative and abolished it in 1969, making it fairly unique in this regard.


In the structure and application of its whole policy of taxation on the population, the Party of Labour of Albania has always been aware that taxation is a temporary historical category. Therefore, step by step and with great care, it prepared the necessary conditions for eliminating it. On November 8, 1969, a measure of great importance was taken for the total abolition of the system of direct taxation on the population...

By eliminating taxes, the personal income which all the working people of our country, including the peasants, achieve from their work, are inviolate.Apparently the DPRK abolished taxation in 1971.

[AK]

Fuck taxes. We don't need currency. Burn it all.
Have fun burning them coins...

[JAH23]

There are two big problems with taxes. The first one is that it isn't very anarchistic, stealing someones money is using coercion against that person. Taxes should be voluntary, and if they're voluntary, they're not taxes anymore.


I'm sorry, but I would be happy to "use coercion" against a rich person so they could contribute to society. If taxes were voluntary, the ruling class would have a fucking party. If taxes were voluntary, no one would pay, we'd be back to laissez-faire capitalism.... Isn't believing in voluntary taxation borderline libertarian? And isn't this a radical leftist forum?

[ContrarianLemming]

Fuck taxes. We don't need currency. Burn it all.

I'm with this guy :thumbup1:

[ContrarianLemming]

I'm sorry, but I would be happy to "use coercion" against a rich person so they could contribute to society. If taxes were voluntary, the ruling class would have a fucking party. If taxes were voluntary, no one would pay, we'd be back to laissez-faire capitalism.... Isn't believing in voluntary taxation borderline libertarian? And isn't this a radical leftist forum?

eliminating taxes in our current society would mean the less fortunate would have to rely on charity alone, if taxes became voluntary then yes, that's actually charity now. Though I doubt he realized that, us libertarian socialists love spouting the word "voluntary" wherever it suits us, like how marxists love using fake words like dianetics...dialectics

[Crusade]

I'm sorry, but I would be happy to "use coercion" against a rich person so they could contribute to society. If taxes were voluntary, the ruling class would have a fucking party. If taxes were voluntary, no one would pay, we'd be back to laissez-faire capitalism.... Isn't believing in voluntary taxation borderline libertarian? And isn't this a radical leftist forum?

Being libertarian is leftist.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Fuck taxes. We don't need currency. Burn it all.

I'm with you. But to an extent. Only until we achieve Communism should the monetary-system be burned straight to the ground & never show its ugly face again. Until then, though, money will play as a tool in order for the working class to gain power.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm not sure if there's already a thread about this...

As a leftist, should we support the American Tax System? It kills me to think my money is fueling imperialistic wars, but at the same time, my tax dollars could be paying for a sick person's medicare, or a working family's welfare. Should we view the tax system from a materialistic standpoint, such as that it pays for America's capitalist wars and the thousands of lives that are lost? Or, from a matter of principle- our hard earned money is contributed to society and for the benefit of all. Also, how would taxes be implemented in a socialist society after the revolution? Money cannot be abolished overnight, so we must have some sort of plan for redistribution of wealth.

No, we should not support taxes in the abstract in the US. The problem with any "common sense" or mainstream discussions of taxes is that they are never put into a class context. It's like when politicians and the media talk about "lowering taxes" they never really say what they are really talking about - it's just one more scam to try and make workers identify with the ruling class. When politicians say "taxes should be lower", hot-damn, what worker wouldn't want to pay less for gas or get more money each pay period. But the actual intentions and result of the "lower taxes" establishment "common sense" means shifting social costs off of the rich and onto workers. Really "low taxes" is ruling class code for shifting taxes and shifting the priorities of spending because they give giveaways to the rich, a few coins to the petty bourgeois and better-paid workers, but leave homless people to rot on the streets and potentially degenerate to the point where they will hurt low-income workers; make students go into debt for decades to get a college education; make the working poor pay "backdoor taxes" through higher tolls, more parking fines, higher public transportation fees and less service; make working families have to pay for more daycare rather than funding after-school programs or extending the school day to match working class hours.

California is the prime example of the results of the "low-taxes" mantra. Tax spending and the budget are always a matter of priorities, and without a fight from workers, the ruling class priorities will always be the ones that get met. So now we have a situation where University tuition has doubled in the last 10 years, the Gov. is planning on eliminating new funds to public schools (so as cost of living and the population goes up, education spending will be frozen based on a budget made during a recession when the housing taxes that fund education have busted due to the housing crisis). But police spending and prison spending are not under the axe at all - despite crime rates being in decline and state supreme court judgments saying that there are already an unconstitutional amount of overcrowding in prisons due to 3-strikes laws and mandatory minimums.

So, for us, taxes should always be seen in a class context and we should always fight taxes as a reform. We could support reformer efforts to create a more progressive tax system where the rich and poor pay equally respective to their incomes - better yet we should raise slogans of tax the rich in order to agitate and refocus some of the class anger away from "taxes" and towards the rich. And we should always expose how the priorities for taxes favor the interests of the ruling class (war, police, prisons, corporate tax cuts), not largely the poor and immigrants as the right-wing bigots claim.

[JAH23]

Thanks for the new perspective, Jimmie!


Being libertarian is leftist

I don't agree with this. Being libertarian, in the US at least, is far from being leftist. Libertarians advocate small government, maximum freedoms- i.e. the freedom to exploit, no government controls on corporations, etc. Libertarians are essentially capitalists. Glenn Beck refers to himself as a libertarian...

Now, I know you probably don't have the same politics as Glenn Beck, but be careful when calling yourself strictly a "libertarian", because the politics that are associated with that word are very different from the radical left.