"We will have a revolution, a civil war that will see the end of the United States."

[Rakhmetov]

I think it is possible, I do not say it is probable, that we will have a revolution, a civil war that will see the end of the United States of America.”

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/calling_all_rebels_20100308/

[The Vegan Marxist]

The problem is that the next civil war, the next revolution to take place in America, will unfortunately be a revolution lead by the right-wing against, not only the government, but all those they deem as "progressives" - which is liberals, independents, environmentalists, socialists, communists, etc.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

The problem is that the next civil war, the next revolution to take place in America, will unfortunately be a revolution lead by the right-wing against, not only the government, but all those they deem as "progressives" - which is liberals, independents, environmentalists, socialists, communists, etc.

The question is, will revolutionaries support the government or become a minor faction concerned with destroying capitalism in a small part of the U.S.?

I would definitely be down for helping a leftist resistance somewhere. Fighting for the government though? Not so much.

[The Vegan Marxist]

The question is, will revolutionaries support the government or become a minor faction concerned with destroying capitalism in a small part of the U.S.?

I would definitely be down for helping a leftist resistance somewhere. Fighting for the government though? Not so much.

Idk, if the right-wingers ended up forming a revolution against the Obama administration, as much as I am highly against the administration, I think we should help them fight against the right-wingers. Because I'd rather continue trying to topple this government, rather than a government run by the right-wingers, which would be the result of a successful coup d'etat.

[Nolan]

How about we sit it out and let the reactionaries kill each other? There won't be any civil war anyway. The right will never do anything more than train more constitutional militias and form roaming bands of fascists. They'll never overthrow the government, because they can't without the aid of big capital, which is happy with the system right now.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Idk, if the right-wingers ended up forming a revolution against the Obama administration, as much as I am highly against the administration, I think we should help them fight against the right-wingers. Because I'd rather continue trying to topple this government, rather than a government run by the right-wingers, which would be the result of a successful coup d'etat.

Meh, maybe it's the anarchist in me but I don't really identify any more with the current administration than I do right-wingers.

They're both right-wingers and fascists in my mind.

So yeah, I'd probably just go to Europe or Canada unless there was a sizable leftist resistance somewhere.

[Nolan]

Meh, maybe it's the anarchist in me but I don't really identify any more with the current administration than I do right-wingers.

They're both right-wingers and fascists in my mind.

So yeah, I'd probably just go to Europe or Canada unless there was a sizable leftist resistance somewhere.

Well no-one identifies with the current administration, it's just I think I'd prefer the liberals to some batshit-insane john birch dictatorship.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Well no-one identifies with the current administration, it's just I think I'd prefer the liberals to some batshit-insane john birch dictatorship.

Are they really different enough to be worth defending? Liberals and conservatives to me are practically the same thing, at least in this country.

I'm not judging your point of view or anything, I just personally wouldn't put my life on the line for liberals.

[La Comédie Noire]

I think someone in OI, forget who, brought up a great point. the anger the Tea Party is capitalizing off of has traditionally been the anger leftists have addressed, but for some reason there is just a political vacuum on the left in the United States. The poor working class of America hates the status quo and the tea party's solution is "more status quo!"

What do we do?

I'm hopeful though, plus I'm pretty sure I couldn't stand living anywhere, but New England, it's kinda my shire.

[Nolan]

Are they really different enough to be worth defending? Liberals and conservatives to me are practically the same thing, at least in this country.

I'm not judging your point of view or anything, I just personally wouldn't put my life on the line for liberals.

Thing is, we're not really voting for the liberals as much as against the confascists. They are the same thing, and advocate the same system and property relations but the liberal support base is more likely to be open to our ideas. They would be suppressed along with us if the far right took complete power, so I'd say leftist militants should help nudge the fight in favor of the liberals, who'd be somewhat easier to overthrow later.

[Uppercut]

the liberal support base is more likely to be open to our ideas. They would be suppressed along with us if the far right took complete power, so I'd say leftist militants should help nudge the fight in favor of the liberals, who'd be somewhat easier to overthrow later.

This. I think some liberals have the right idea (spreading the wealth, universal health care and education, ending NAFTA, ending pointless wars, etc.), but they don't go far enough.
Plus, the left wing of the petty bourgeoisie could be our ally in some cases, such as in technical expertise and whatnot. The revolution may not be exactly what they had in mind, but they will hopefully realize that there are bigger things at stake than running a small business.

A comrade of mine told me about a story he heard about a hotel in the USSR. The old manager was among the workers, and they still took his advice to an extent. However, they elected someone else as the new manager because of his working-class background and consciousness and the hotel ran just fine. This would be an example of the old petty-bourgeoise actually assimilating with the masses.

[Salyut]

Good to see you guys reading Hedges, you really need to get his books and read Mark Ames too (specifically Going Postal).

His stuff scares me. Books generally don't do this to me.

[the last donut of the night]

Look, like every revolutionary in the USA I dream of the day the red flag replaces the American one on Capitol Hill. But revolution in the US is so far away that discussing it now is purely an interesting "what if" scenario, and sadly, little else.

We should capitalize on revitalizing the workers' and students' movements now. We should focus in the immigration protests and the budget cut protests in California.

[The Gallant Gallstone]

If we're talking about something as grandiose as the disintegration of the United States, I think we need to seriously consider the possibility that the nation will fragment into regions controlled by different parties.

If there were an effort to consolidate revolutionary-minded people into one area, would you consider moving, possibly cross-country, to help secure socialism?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Look, like every revolutionary in the USA I dream of the day the red flag replaces the American one on Capitol Hill. But revolution in the US is so far away that discussing it now is purely an interesting "what if" scenario, and sadly, little else.

We should capitalize on revitalizing the workers' and students' movements now. We should focus in the immigration protests and the budget cut protests in California.

Actually, we're not talking about a socialist revolution. We're talking about the right-wing revolution against both the government and us & whether we'd side with the liberals or not, in order to defeat the ultra-fascist right-wing opposition.

[The Gallant Gallstone]

Actually, we're not talking about a socialist revolution. We're talking about the right-wing revolution against both the government and us & whether we'd side with the liberals or not, in order to defeat the ultra-fascist right-wing opposition.

Well then, I'd suggest we use the ensuing anarchy to carve our own territorial niche and lend support to the weakened liberal government in exchange for key concessions.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Well then, I'd suggest we use the ensuing anarchy to carve our own territorial niche and lend support to the weakened liberal government in exchange for key concessions.

^ This

[S.Artesian]

[QUOTE=Comrade Floyd;1741442]I think someone in OI, forget who, brought up a great point. the anger the Tea Party is capitalizing off of has traditionally been the anger leftists have addressed, but for some reason there is just a political vacuum on the left in the United States. The poor working class of America hates the status quo and the tea party's solution is "more status quo!"

/QUOTE]


That's just not true. The Tea Party is capitalizing off racism, pure and simple.

[S.Artesian]

Well then, I'd suggest we use the ensuing anarchy to carve our own territorial niche and lend support to the weakened liberal government in exchange for key concessions.

What are you guys smoking? Whatever it is, I don't want any. Where has an advanced capitalist country disintegrated at the hands of internal contradictions?

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Thing is, we're not really voting for the liberals as much as against the confascists. They are the same thing, and advocate the same system and property relations but the liberal support base is more likely to be open to our ideas. They would be suppressed along with us if the far right took complete power, so I'd say leftist militants should help nudge the fight in favor of the liberals, who'd be somewhat easier to overthrow later.

There are liberal workers and conservative workers. We shouldn't take sides in these capitalist pissing contests.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

If we're talking about something as grandiose as the disintegration of the United States, I think we need to seriously consider the possibility that the nation will fragment into regions controlled by different parties.

If there were an effort to consolidate revolutionary-minded people into one area, would you consider moving, possibly cross-country, to help secure socialism?

There can't be an island of socialism in one region of a country. If all of the revolutionary minded people moved to one area to "consolidate" it, it would only ensure the defeat of the revolution everywhere else.

[La Comédie Noire]

That's just not true. The Tea Party is capitalizing off racism, pure and simple.They're using racism as an excuse for why the lower levels of working class life suck. "The dirty Mexican is stealing your job!" we should be saying "The Mexican has more in common with you than the white politicians ever will."

The fact the working class is racist at all should raise some red flags. (not the good kind either)

[CChocobo]

By no means is the U.S. in a revolutionary environment or close to being so. Although there are some frightening things i.e. the immigration bill that just passed in my home state, i don't see a revolution coming anytime soon. And that goes for both leftists and the right. Once you have leftists and rightists physically confronting one another i'd start to worry a little. I remember people thinking perhaps a revolution would happen during the Bush era, as so many people against the war, and policies he put in place like the patriot act. But we saw nothing happen of course.. Hmm i guess for now it's fun to use it as a "what if" scenario. :)

[AK]

The question is, will revolutionaries support the government or become a minor faction concerned with destroying capitalism in a small part of the U.S.?
Sounds like the Spanish Civil War to me.

[Crusade]

A police state would come before any real "revolution". Luckily, socialists of all kinds are globally class conscience while right wingers are foolishly nationalist. If things got too hot in America with Authoritarian policies, I could personally go to another country and find socialists who are fighting for the same thing I am, and will most likely have a clearer picture of what's going on than I do(America's image of socialism is vastly different than the rest of the world), while a common phrase repeated by right wingers in America is "where am I gonna go". They're the most patriotic because they consider themselves alone in their complete hatred of all things socialist. It's a major us vs the world thing. And this will be their downfall. If things get bad here I'd like to go to Frace personally, or the ivory coast(boondocks joke :lol:).

[chegitz guevara]

What a terrible article.

[chegitz guevara]

Well then, I'd suggest we use the ensuing anarchy to carve our own territorial niche and lend support to the weakened liberal government in exchange for key concessions.

Cuz that so worked in Spain.

[zimmerwald1915]

Cuz that so worked in Spain.
Spain's the prime example of a false dilemma, isn't it?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

It's fun to fantasize.

If Obama was being overthrown, I would absolutely fight for the republic.

[KurtFF8]

They're using racism as an excuse for why the lower levels of working class life suck. "The dirty Mexican is stealing your job!" we should be saying "The Mexican has more in common with you than the white politicians ever will."

The fact the working class is racist at all should raise some red flags. (not the good kind either)

This just isn't true. The Tea Party's class composition is predominantly middle class white business oriented folks. There are elements of the working class that are racist, but that isn't why we're seeing a racist Tea Party.

[S.Artesian]

It's fun to fantasize.

If Obama was being overthrown, I would absolutely fight for the republic.


What does that mean? Fight for the Democrats so they can go on with their compromises, accommodation, support of the right wing of the right wing of the right wing?

If "Obama was being overthrown" in a real pre-emptive counterrevolutionary stroke, a la Zelaya in Honduras... what would you do, fight for a restoration of the US constitution? The "sanctity" of the election process.

Take a look, for example, at the Zelaya move-- a definite pre-emptive counterrevolutionary stroke given the condition of the Honduran economy and the sporadic but persistent eruptions against CAFTA.

There was "fighting for the republic," for the restoration of "democracy," preservation of the "constitution" blah blah blah, and the fact that the terms of the struggle were confined to exactly that areas predetermined the defeat of the struggle [just as anybody with half a wit could see that
Zelaya, landowner par excellence with images of caudilloism dancing before his eyes would accept some deal that would leave him high, and everybody else pretty dry].

If Obama is overthrown, if something like a Pinochet moves against Obama, it will only be because the workers are already in motion and Obama can no longer control their struggle.

Think and act strategically, not reflexively.

[AK]

This just isn't true. The Tea Party's class composition is predominantly middle class white business oriented folks. There are elements of the working class that are racist, but that isn't why we're seeing a racist Tea Party.
Since when did Marxists believe in a middle class?

[chegitz guevara]

Since when did Marxists believe in a middle class?

Since always. Where've you been? In fact, we understand there are multiple middle classes: farmers, small shop keepers, lawyers, doctors, civil servants, middle management, etc.

[KurtFF8]

Since when did Marxists believe in a middle class?

Since when did Council Communists not?

There's a difference between believing the typical American mythology of "almost everyone is middle class!" and understanding the actual class structure of a society.

[AK]

Since always. Where've you been? In fact, we understand there are multiple middle classes: farmers, small shop keepers, lawyers, doctors, civil servants, middle management, etc.
Aren't small shop keepers Petit-Bourgeois? Same with most independent lawyers and doctors; the rest being Proletarian of some sort? Civil servants are employed by the state aren't they? Shouldn't they be Proletarian? Middle management are essentially proletarian, but they seem to be class traitors. This is where Marxist class analysis really fucked up.

[Nolan]

Aren't small shop keepers Petit-Bourgeois? Same with most independent lawyers and doctors; the rest being Proletarian of some sort? Civil servants are employed by the state aren't they? Shouldn't they be Proletarian? Middle management are essentially proletarian, but they seem to be class traitors. This is where Marxist class analysis really fucked up.

No it's where you don't know enough about it.

[Antifa94]

what happened to my posts on this thread?:confused:

[Raúl Duke]

Depending on circumstance will affect my reaction.
Perhaps, let's assume that we have a territorial niche of somesort (i.e. Vermont becomes autonomous, for a weak example) that is however allied with the nominal federal government (for concessions or some other reason) than I guess I'll stay and fight. But the only situation that would more likely make me stay is if a radical revolutionary leftist alternative arises in strength and that I would join, support, and/or fight for.

But I'm more likely to just fucking flee to Canada or get on a boat to Ireland, Spain, Italy, or the UK; since the "worst case scenario" seems the most likely.

[mosfeld]

Cool thread.


The problem is that the next civil war, the next revolution to take place in America, will unfortunately be a revolution lead by the right-wing against, not only the government, but all those they deem as "progressives" - which is liberals, independents, environmentalists, socialists, communists, etc.

When one faction of the bourgeoisie comes to power, be it through violence or otherwise, it shouldn't be considered a revolution, taking into consideration that a revolution is the seizure of power by the oppressed class. Anyways, the current bourgeois dictatorship in the US has been doing exactly what you described the right-wing 'revolution' would do - suppressing progressives, oppressing and even murdering communists and workers, so I don't really see any fundamental change if this right-wing 'revolution' were to occur. My point anyways is basically that the US system just cant possibly become more rotten and degenerated no matter how hard the ultra-reactionaries try, haha.

[AK]

Cool thread.



When one faction of the bourgeoisie comes to power, be it through violence or otherwise, it shouldn't be considered a revolution, taking into consideration that a revolution is the seizure of power by the oppressed class. Anyways, the current bourgeois dictatorship in the US has been doing exactly what you described the right-wing 'revolution' would do - suppressing progressives, oppressing and even murdering communists and workers, so I don't really see any fundamental change if this right-wing 'revolution' were to occur. My point anyways is basically that the US system just cant possibly become more rotten and degenerated no matter how hard the ultra-reactionaries try, haha.
I hate to break it to you, but such a thing is a revolution. Whose interests it was in and if a different class took over (or if classes were abolished) is a different matter.

[mosfeld]

I hate to break it to you, but such a thing is a revolution. Whose interests it was in and if a different class took over (or if classes were abolished) is a different matter.

A revolution is the overthrow of one class by another, in which one class establishes its dictatorship and dominance over another class, not a power swap between different factions of the bourgeoisie. A right wing 'revolution' is inherently bourgeois and so is the US administration, so where's the overthrow of one class by another, i.e, revolution? :)

[AK]

A revolution is the overthrow of one class by another, in which one class establishes its dictatorship and dominance over another class, not a power swap between different factions of the bourgeoisie. A right wing 'revolution' is inherently bourgeois and so is the US administration, so where's the overthrow of one class by another, i.e, revolution? :)
True. But if a "revolution" such as the American one was not class-based, it still involved the overthrow of British rule in America. If this is not a revolution, then what is it?

I think you have a point though. A new class didn't take over society; the ruling class was just downsized. But I'm still wondering what one would call it.

[zimmerwald1915]

True. But if a "revolution" such as the American one was not class-based, it still involved the overthrow of British rule in America. If this is not a revolution, then what is it?

I think you have a point though. A new class didn't take over society; the ruling class was just downsized. But I'm still wondering what one would call it.
"American War of/for Independence" has a pedigree. At least, I've heard it called that.

[AK]

"American War of/for Independence" has a pedigree. At least, I've heard it called that.
Oh right. I'm shit sleepy. I forgot how nationalism and "national liberation" are tools of the Bourgeoisie :blushing:

[Delenda Carthago]

There wont be revolution in US anytime soon.Period.

Keep doing your propaganda.That is ALL there is asked from you revolutionaries in US.Make sure that when the day will come,you ll be able to grab the opportunity.

[mosfeld]

True. But if a "revolution" such as the American one was not class-based, it still involved the overthrow of British rule in America. If this is not a revolution, then what is it?

I think you have a point though. A new class didn't take over society; the ruling class was just downsized. But I'm still wondering what one would call it.

It's just the same old dictatorship of the bourgeoisie with different representation.

I'll admit that I haven't studied the historic American Revolution one bit, but wasn't it basically a bourgeois revolution, replacing colonial rule with a capitalist one?

[Nolan]

It's just the same old dictatorship of the bourgeoisie with different representation.

I'll admit that I haven't studied the historic American Revolution one bit, but wasn't it basically a bourgeois revolution, replacing colonial rule with a capitalist one?

The same landowning elite stayed in power. They simply threw off the British imperial state and created their own nation state.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The same landowning elite stayed in power. They simply threw off the British imperial state and created their own nation state.

Still represents a break within the imperial structure and is therefore progressive when put into historical context (according to some).

[comrade_cyanide444]

I'm not sure of the time frame here, but I highly doubt that a revolution will ensue very soon. The people in USA know no difference between the exploiters and their own people. Generally, what happens is that the blame for unemployment and poverty in the lower class is put on immigrants like Mexicans. It's very unfortunate, but it is unforeseeable that anything like what we saw in 1917 Russia or even what's happening in Greece now will happen, because a lot of people don't know what's going on and are distracted from the real world in USA.

[Nolan]

I'm not sure of the time frame here, but I highly doubt that a revolution will ensue very soon. The people in USA know no difference between the exploiters and their own people. Generally, what happens is that the blame for unemployment and poverty in the lower class is put on immigrants like Mexicans. It's very unfortunate, but it is unforeseeable that anything like what we saw in 1917 Russia or even what's happening in Greece now will happen, because a lot of people don't know what's going on and are distracted from the real world in USA.

Your average American worker is only concerned with keeping their job and maintaining their media-endowed "middle class" lifestyle. It will take quite a shock to wake up the American public to the realities of the system. The U.S. is quite like the Matrix, in that almost everyone has been hypnotized by the system and the religion of the free market to some extent. There is no left or movement for an alternative to capitalism in America, and the U.S. is special in that regard.