Vlad Tepes--- Was He The First Fascist?

[Rakhmetov]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zmlapl515w


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_tepes

[danyboy27]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zmlapl515w


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_tepes

but..but...he fought against ottoman imperialism!

[Devrim]

Vlad Tepes--- Was He The First Fascist?

No, the word fascism does actually have a meaning.

Devrim

[Wanted Man]

No. Everyone knows that Genghis Khan was the first nazicommunofascist. But Vlad was a true brownshirt as well.

At least this thread gives me the opportunity to post this song:

Qu1G2kfdy6A

Dutch 1960s oldies. :cool:

[Dimentio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zmlapl515w


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_tepes

If pre-modern autocrats are going to be called fascists, then I think that biblical figures like Gideon are much closer.

As for Vlad Tepes, he was undoubtly cruel, but at the same time a progressive. You see, Wallachia was a very de-centralised feudal country which was basically a playground both for Hungary and the Ottoman Empire, as the local nobles allied with the neighbouring countries to raise and depose princes as they wished.

Vlad Tepes was unique in one aspect, and that was that he tried to break the power of the nobles and the orthodox church, by aligning himself with the peasants and the townspeople. I think he once said, "everything belongs to everyone". His cruelties mostly affected the established elite in Wallachia. I do not think it was a concious class struggle, but rather that he was a proto-bonapartist leader who raised - or tried to raise - himself over the class contradictions of middle age Romania in order to unite the nation in a struggle for a sort of national self-determination.

He was also a fanatical christian, which of course would be reactionary today. During the 15th century though, radical reformers often looked back into the Bible as some form of ideal society. Ultimately, it seems like Vlad, unlike Savonarola, was able to put faith below politics, as when he became a catholic to regain the Wallachian throne in 1475.

I myself did previously believe in all the grossly slanderous hearsay which have passed off as the true history of Vlad Tepes. The truth is that he was a cruel despot, but that his cruelty was rational and directed against the nobility which was about to serve Wallachia as a dish to Hungary and the Turks. He centralised the country, put up a standing army, purged the nobility and waged a relatively successful guerilla war against the Turks. His only vice: He failed.

It would be anachronistic to call the guy an anti-imperialist, but if considered anything, he would stand closer to anti-imperialism than fascism.

In the case of this prince, the fact that many Romanians are still praying for his return is indeed saying a lot about the impact he must have had on his time and place.

If you find any historical records about a pre-modern ruler who is described with any kind of outlandish claims, then you should stop and think for a moment. Remember that during pre-modern times, those who wrote history were the aristocracy or the church. A ruler which treated the ruling class bad would not gain any positive footnotes in history. It is highly probable that the British king John or the Roman Emperor Nero in fact were progressive leaders or at least leaders who sided with the ordinary people against the aristocracy.

I almost forgot about this film, by the way. A dramatised version of Dracula's career, but nevertheless probably the most historically accurate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvG_YiEzyYs

[AK]

It is highly probable that the British king John or the Roman Emperor Nero in fact were progressive leaders or at least leaders who sided with the ordinary people against the aristocracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_Rome :rolleyes:

[Dimentio]

There is no real evidence that Nero intended to build that construction for his own personal use, except Tacitus and Suetonius who were pro-aristocratic writers. The ruins which have been excavated are rather indicating that the complex was going to be some sort of artistic academy. Nero was very fond of Greek culture, arts, theatre and music, and dreamt of abolishing the Roman empire and create an empire which would rule the world through the soft power of its culture and philosophy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero#After_death

A leader who built palaces for himself would not have been loved by the ordinary people after his death, nor would people who claimed to be him have sprung up all across the empire and get supporters.

Nero could possibly have been a mentally deranged sociopath, but that is not what we should judge his place in history for.

In year 67, he started a systematic extermination campaign against the entire aristocracy, forcing the wealthy to give up all their property to the state and then killing them one family at a time.

One historian is describing Nero's main weakness to be "that he was obsessed with being loved by the people".

During republican Rome, there was one man named Tiberius Gracchus who wanted to give landless proletarians land, and he was slaid by the senate, who claimed that he wanted to make himself king. Nero, who governed during a time when monarchy was already reintroduced and had been accepted as a mediating force, was slandered because of his personal traits and alleged depravation.

I do not know why, but I feel that there was something special about Nero.

[chegitz guevara]

I think the real question is: when Mengistu Haile Mariam is gonna stop posting stupid questions?

[Ocean Seal]

I have always thought that Vlad Tempes embodied the spirit of 20th century fascism considering that he invited all the poor people of his kingdom to a large manor to eat and drink and then proceeded to lock them up burn the manor to the ground.

[Dimentio]

I have always thought that Vlad Tempes embodied the spirit of 20th century fascism considering that he invited all the poor people of his kingdom to a large manor to eat and drink and then proceeded to lock them up burn the manor to the ground.

The main source about this atrocity is Saxon German merchants living in the border towns with Transylvania. They had previously been granted the right to levy taxes as well as acquiring trade monopolies in Wallachia.

It could be possible that he attacked beggars and wayfarers, but the idea that he put them inside one barn and burnt it down indicates that it was about a maximum of 500 beggars in all of Wallachia, something which seems unlikely given that the country had a half million inhabitants upon his ascension to the throne.

The stories where the Russian, Turkish, Hungarian and German sources seem to agree is the impalement of Turkish prisoners of war (which actually was considered an atrocity in most of Europe of that time, but at the same time understandable given that all European nations committed actions not usual for warfare and that the Turks killed POW's and ambassadors as well), the nailing of the turbans on the heads of the Turkish emissaries, the golden cup as well as his killing of the nobility.

The histories of him mutilating his pregnant mistress, drinking human blood, impaling mice in his prison cell, killing a peasant woman for being lazy and burning beggars seems to be anecdotal and apocryphic in nature.

I know about folklore in Latin America which is saying that Fidel Castro upon gaining power sent out ice cream cars to all of Cuba, giving the Cuban children poisoned icecream so they died, in order to frighten the population of Cuba into submission, or that Che Guevara was a zoophile who kept an aquarium where he had sex with Brazilian river dolphins. These stories seem insane except in the ears of Latin American right-wingers and Cuban exiles, but there is mass media today. In the 15th century, there were two sources of information - spying and rumours.

A good way of dealing with old historic material where there is multiple sources, is to look at what good sides those who are hostile to a certain historical character are telling of, and what bad sides his or her supporters are ready to confess.

[Raúl Duke]

I know about folklore in Latin America which is saying that Fidel Castro upon gaining power sent out ice cream cars to all of Cuba, giving the Cuban children poisoned icecream so they died, in order to frighten the population of Cuba into submission

Talking about Fidel Castro stories...

I heard this story in Miami where supposedly in school the teacher instructed kids to pray to god for something, like candy or whatnot. So the children closed their eyes and prayed and when they open them there was of course nothing, and the teacher remarked on this and I think use it as a point to say "god doesn't exist." Supposedly, the teacher than proceeded to tell the kids to close their eyes and ask Fidel Castro for candy/etc. So the teacher than proceeded to put candy in their tables and when the kids open their eyes the teacher remarked something about the candy, socialism, etc.

Obviously, I'm extremely skeptical of this story but it does sound true for Cuban exiles and in a way they base it off of misunderstandings of the anti-clericalism/secularism of Marxist-Leninism (although they equated with anti-theism) and cult of personalities.

[A.R.Amistad]

Theres something about that area of Europe and producing bloodthirsty rulers. Vlad Tepes in Wallachia did what he did, and of course his distant cousin Elizabeth (or Erezbet) Bathory killed 400 of her own subjects, alledgedly for their blood. Yes, they were related, and yes, they were both Nobles from the Carpathian Mountain area. Creeeeeeppppyyyyyyyy

[Pavlov's House Party]

Theres something about that area of Europe and producing bloodthirsty rulers. Vlad Tepes in Wallachia did what he did, and of course his distant cousin Elizabeth (or Erezbet) Bathory killed 400 of her own subjects, alledgedly for their blood. Yes, they were related, and yes, they were both Nobles from the Carpathian Mountain area. Creeeeeeppppyyyyyyyy

The nobility of Europe at this time was incredibly inbred to keep non-nobles out of power. For example; Charles II of Spain was mentally & emotionally retarded and deformed because of inbreeding, so it isn't a far stretch to think these people suffered from some mental illnesses that made them psychotic.

[ComradeOm]

You know, I've seen this thread around for the last few weeks whenever I was skimming through the history forum. Never clicked on it but always had the same thought - "Wasn't Vlad Tepes the 16th C Romanian ruler?". This was often followed by, "I wonder if the name was used by some 20th C figure in the Iron Guard". Now I open the thread and find that it was not the latter... :blink:


Theres something about that area of Europe and producing bloodthirsty rulers. Vlad Tepes in Wallachia did what he did, and of course his distant cousin Elizabeth (or Erezbet) Bathory killed 400 of her own subjects, alledgedly for their blood. Yes, they were related, and yes, they were both Nobles from the Carpathian Mountain area. CreeeeeeppppyyyyyyyyEither that corner of Europe is infested with vampires or it was simply suitably remote to serve as a setting for 19th C British horror writers. You decide

To provide some contrast, Vlad Tepes had absolutely nothing on the far more prosaic Thiers who oversaw the murder and imprisonment of tens of thousands of Parisian citizens in 1871. Or indeed the even bloodier despots who were so prominent, both in Western Europe and beyond, during the 20th C

[Turinbaar]

No I think Fascism requires certain material conditions like military industrialism and mass media in order to be what we understand as the definition of the term. He certainly had the religious zealotry and cruelty that is the human element of fascism.

[Dimentio]

You know, I've seen this thread around for the last few weeks whenever I was skimming through the history forum. Never clicked on it but always had the same thought - "Wasn't Vlad Tepes the 16th C Romanian ruler?". This was often followed by, "I wonder if the name was used by some 20th C figure in the Iron Guard". Now I open the thread and find that it was not the latter... :blink:

Either that corner of Europe is infested with vampires or it was simply suitably remote to serve as a setting for 19th C British horror writers. You decide

To provide some contrast, Vlad Tepes had absolutely nothing on the far more prosaic Thiers who oversaw the murder and imprisonment of tens of thousands of Parisian citizens in 1871. Or indeed the even bloodier despots who were so prominent, both in Western Europe and beyond, during the 20th C

The Iron Guard was a fascist organisation which probably espoused the most fervently archaic variation of militant christianity imagineable. They were probably even more antisemitic than the NSDAP. Their leader, Codreanu, has recently gained a lot of popularity amongst Swedish neonazis for some unknown reason. He is almost like a Che Guevara-like icon amongst them. :lol:

[FriendlyLocalViking]

HA! Don't make the Viking laugh!

Vlad Tepes III wasn't a Fascist. He was a simple despot, ununique to his time. He used the same tactics everyone else did, in the same way everyone else did. His personal spin was scale.

Impaling people forminor crimes was very common in Eastern Europe at that time. Impaling tens of thousands on every tree in a small forest? THAT was unique.

Short story: Dracula was not a Fascist, simply a despotic ruler fighting for his own self-gratification.

Really short story: No.

[ReinoTheProle]

And going back to Nero-thing, The Senate, which made almost all writings back then, could've WROTE Nero as an deranged dictator, because he sided with proletariat so many times during his career.

And Vlad, an fascist? Come on, eventhough he was an evil guy, synonum for evil person shoukd not be an fascist. Many fascists genuinely believe in radical right, just as many here believe in radical left. Mussolini himself was once socialist , until he found his own ideology. So fascists are not necessarily pure evil. Liberal capitalists are.