anarchism : time for regrouping, recollection and evaluating our allegiances

[Black Sheep]

These are my personal thoughts on this matter.

As you all know, yesterday in the huge general strike in greece, the biggest after the metapolitefsi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metapolitefsi), had a shadow cast upon it from the deaths by asphyxiation of 3 workers in Marfin bank.
Despite of the president of Marfin and the manager of the bank having a direct responsibility for the deaths (the building was inappropriate for use as a bank, declared officially by the fire department), despite of some shady parts on the matter ( a man after the molotov was thrown,not hooded, approached and poured gasoline on the bank's entrance ), despite all of these, the man/woman responsible is the one that threw the molotov cocktail to the bank.

Whichever his/her ideology, the media have portrayed him/her as anarchists, anti-authoritarian and hooded criminal.

There are 3 distinct cases here,each laying out a different path of action :

case 1-the whole thing was staged, to frame the expected to be (and it was) huge huge demonstration of workers against the austerity program and the IMF new dictators.If that's the case,then woe to our rulers.

case 2-the person/people who did this were anarchists, the whole thing was an accident.Noone would expect a bank to be open,at a general strike and in an area were violence was bount to break out.(In fact, the 30 workers in that bank were black mailed by their employer, a common practice in the 'crisis-struck greece' - either you will not strike, or you will lose your job.
Apart from that the one(s) responsible are firstly those that started the fire- they have to come forth, responsibly apologize as a duty and moral responsibility to the families of the victims, and as a revolutionary and ideological responsibility to their comrades and working people of greece.I'm not talking about surrendering to his/her local police station (although i would greatly respect that), an article on the internet would be ok as well. I am really really anticipating for this every minute of each day..
In addittion, perhaps it is time for reconsidering our means of violence,and how each means is prone to misuse,leading to effects and outcomes opposite and different that the ones desired.

case 3- the point of this thread and most important case:The people responsible were NOT anarchists, but anarcho-somethings lowlifes,who march to the streets with violence as the goal and not the means.If that's the case, the greek anarchists have to at last examine where those peoples' allegiancies lie.We have to STOP placing ourselves right next to those fucking garbage bins of ideological waste, ideologically, as a movement, in practice and at the streets.As we oust righties from our blocks, we have to separate ourselves from these bastards as well.Because there is a reason for separation ideologically & practically, a reason and a set of criteria of similarities and these people do not meet them.
We dont have to and we should not suffer the fallout of such idiocy of those ideologically infant hooligans every time they want their dose of adrenaline and illusion of revolutionary action.We have to stop this harmful tradition, because that's what it is, right now.It is our responsibility agaisnt our true comrades, and against the working class and the oppressed of this country.

This saturday is the coutry-wide council of the Anti-authoritarian movement.As these guys and girls were pioneers in organizing the anarchist movement,giving it a sense of responsibility and separating themselves i every way from extreme anarcho-stirneric assholes, i really really hope there will be some recollection,analysis and decisions on the matter.

[FSL]

That some people might mature politically is the only good thing that can come out of this.

[LebenIstKrieg]

Im starting to get pissed off at the lack of organisation or thought by these guys. I mean destruction for the sake of destruction thats not the insurrectional anarchism I support. my idea is training paramilitary groups to deal with police invasions and far right, create no go areas for police. for instance look at the short lived but inspiring group called "adiriti del polopo", they had such an air of menace that one wouldn't think of critising such an organisation.

[The Douche]

You think anarchists should turn themselves into the police? What would that accomplish? Do you think that the police and the courts represent justice?

Its a shame when anybody dies, especially when they are innocent workers. But that does not mean revolutionaries should quit the struggle.


The worst of the opportunist elements of social anarchism is being seen in the dialouge around greece currently. I like how now there are even calls for the anarchist movement to abandon insurrectionaries, its laughable to suggest that to the greeks, greek anarchism is insurrectionary anarchism.

[Saorsa]

greek anarchism is insurrectionary anarchism.

Which is precisely why it's achieved so little.

[The Douche]

Which is precisely why it's achieved so little.

Continue to deny the reality of the struggle in Greece. The anti-authoritarian movement plays a leading role, both tactically, and ideologically, and the reason is because for 30 years of more it has constantly engaged in social war.

[Die Neue Zeit]

case 3- the point of this thread and most important case:The people responsible were NOT anarchists, but anarcho-somethings lowlifes,who march to the streets with violence as the goal and not the means.If that's the case, the greek anarchists have to at last examine where those peoples' allegiancies lie.We have to STOP placing ourselves right next to those fucking garbage bins of ideological waste, ideologically, as a movement, in practice and at the streets.As we oust righties from our blocks, we have to separate ourselves from these bastards as well.Because there is a reason for separation ideologically & practically, a reason and a set of criteria of similarities and these people do not meet them.
We dont have to and we should not suffer the fallout of such idiocy of those ideologically infant hooligans every time they want their dose of adrenaline and illusion of revolutionary action.We have to stop this harmful tradition, because that's what it is, right now.It is our responsibility agaisnt our true comrades, and against the working class and the oppressed of this country.

Then just do what the KKE does with its overly broad brush and shove them over to the cops. That's what I would do, to be honest.

[Black Sheep]

Continue to deny the reality of the struggle in Greece. The anti-authoritarian movement plays a leading role, both tactically, and ideologically, and the reason is because for 30 years of more it has constantly engaged in social war.

Wow, strange, since the anti-authoritarian movement was formed only 7 years ago, in 2003.
Congrats for pulling stuff out of your ass to support your position.:cursing:

Comrades,the good thing that i hope will come out of this tragedy, and everyone i've talked to agrees with me, is that the anarrchist movement in greece will take a more serious role and presence in the movement in general.

[F9]

I disagree with all my heart to those throwing the blame to Anarchism, at least in here we know what Anarchism is, even if some people choose to blame it out of bias, but a man with a hood and a Molotov is far from the criteria of an Anarchist.
I also disagree with handing over to the police, and i would be far from respect to the one that did that, an apology not would be respected, but it is demanded for me to the families, but if the whole thing wasnt set up, i dont think right now the wo/man who is responsible of this, has any moral power to talk to anyone, than apologise to the family, i know i would hardly could carry on such a blame, and im sure lot of people couldnt.But police is one of the main enemys, seen is the most active and violent one, and we shouldnt be prepared to cooperate with them, we are allying with the state, and we forget what they did and do, and thats thousands of deaths of innocent people and workers every day.Deaths of workers in their workplace is amongst the first death reasons globally, we shouldnt be working with them in any way.
Blame must be thrown, and if the molotov came out from a group which was named Anarchist, then the group has the duty to find those who did that if they are amongst them, and deal with them accordingly, or make it absolute clear that the one did it, wasnt one from them.If there wasnt any Anarchist group there, but anti-authoritarians etc etc, and few people dressed up as Anarchists, then i cant see the reason to keep felling to states and media trap and even us "recognizing" them as "Anarchists". In the end, im pretty sure those who have the fault are not Anarchists, now if they were provocateurs or simply idiotic "anarchists" whose only connection with Anarchism is the label they choose, i cant know that.

[this is an invasion]

Wow, strange, since the anti-authoritarian movement was formed only 7 years ago, in 2003.
Congrats for pulling stuff out of your ass to support your position.:cursing:

Comrades,the good thing that i hope will come out of this tragedy, and everyone i've talked to agrees with me, is that the anarrchist movement in greece will take a more serious role and presence in the movement in general.

Anarchists have been active in the streets since the 70s. Nice try though.

And how the fuck are you gonna call yourself an anarchist and say that other anarchists should turn themselves over to the police?

To deny the impact and the influence the insurrectionist anarchists have on the working class of Greece is to deny reality. History really does repeat itself: the condemnation of the hooligan elements of struggle and recuperation of struggle happened in May 68, just as some people are trying to do in Greece.

Also, no one gives a fuck what you and your stupid syndicalist friends say about what the Greeks should do because you're not from there.


Fuck ya'll.

[F9]

wow, calm down. Also Black Sheep is "from there", but no one said that we shouldnt criticize people because we arent from the particular place.Its a discussion forum, and discussion is what you get.

[manic expression]

Anarchists have been active in the streets since the 70s. Nice try though.

And how the fuck are you gonna call yourself an anarchist and say that other anarchists should turn themselves over to the police?

To deny the impact and the influence the insurrectionist anarchists have on the working class of Greece is to deny reality. History really does repeat itself: the condemnation of the hooligan elements of struggle and recuperation of struggle happened in May 68, just as some people are trying to do in Greece.

Also, no one gives a fuck what you and your stupid syndicalist friends say about what the Greeks should do because you're not from there.


Fuck ya'll.
How kind of you to present us with such a supremely persuasive argument against "insurrectionist anarchism".

[The Douche]

At least in 68 the syndicalists and the social anarchists were on the right side, now they have joined the ranks of the recuperators.

The KKE condemned the anarchists and calleed for them to go home in 08, they're condemning them again. Now so-called anarchists have also taken thier side, and are going so far as to encourage anarchists to turn themselves into the police. AGAIN I challenge you, what purpose would that serve? Do you think the police and their courts represent justice?


Wow, strange, since the anti-authoritarian movement was formed only 7 years ago, in 2003.

I meant "anti-authoritarian" as in the broad movement against the state/capital, not the movement which specifically goes by that name in greece, thats my bad.

[bricolage]

Then just do what the KKE does with its overly broad brush and shove them over to the cops. That's what I would do, to be honest.

This is absolutely disgraceful. You aren't even a snitch you're a fucking state agent.

[Saorsa]

Whatever I think about the shitness of insurrectionary anarchism and the destructive role it's played in Greece and elsewhere, I'd never turn an anarchist over to the cops. There are some lines you just don't cross.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I never said to turn anarchists over to the cops. Also, there are profound differences between insurrectionist anarchists and mere pseudo-anarkiddie hooligans.

This attack on a Greek bank could be construed to be an insurrectionist and not hooligan act. Hooligans tend to target small shops. The latter group should be turned in.

I said the KKE had an overly broad brush because of its sectarianism.

[Black Sheep]

And how the fuck are you gonna call yourself an anarchist and say that other anarchists should turn themselves over to the police?

To deny the impact and the influence the insurrectionist anarchists have on the working class of Greece is to deny reality. History really does repeat itself: the condemnation of the hooligan elements of struggle and recuperation of struggle happened in May 68, just as some people are trying to do in Greece.

Also, no one gives a fuck what you and your stupid syndicalist friends say about what the Greeks should do because you're not from there.
Fuck ya'll.

Fuck you very much.
What's the influence of insurrectionism? My memores seem to fail me.
My syndicalist friends are from there, and they live a couple of blocks away from me.

Also, allow me to LOL at the 'your syndicalist friends', implying a hostility against syndicalism, which is a general LOL and pity to your direction.

Go to village, revolt and live your anarhco-punkish dream.


Also,


case 2-the person/people who did this were anarchists, the whole thing was an accident.
[...]
I'm not talking about surrendering to his/her local police station (although i would greatly respect that), an article on the internet would be ok as well.

I would respect as hell the anarchist, who for moral reasons, turned himself in to the police.
I don't think it's an "effective" way to deal with the situation (an imprisoned anarchist doesn't do much good), and for that i'd find it a bit idealistic and naive.

However, i would respect and admire that person, who, for his own retribution, for moral reasons, or for the good and/or retribution of the movement would sacrifice his freedom.
A communist/anarchist revolutionary is first of all a humanist (without fetishising the human life).


I meant "anti-authoritarian" as in the broad movement against the state/capital, not the movement which specifically goes by that name in greece, thats my bad. Oh ok then,sorry i snapped at you. :(

[Wanted Man]

Typical that it's Greek anarchists on here who take the most sensible approach, and showing the most self-knowledge. Whereas some American comrades are the ones doing the most "macho-militarist" posturing. This seems to be a perspective thing. It's a lot easier to dismiss 3 dead as unimportant when you've never been in this situation yourself, and probably never will be.

Given some of the short-sighted responses here, there are definitely a few "insurrectionists" that we can do without.

[The Douche]

Typical that it's Greek anarchists on here who take the most sensible approach, and showing the most self-knowledge. Whereas some American comrades are the ones doing the most "macho-militarist" posturing. This seems to be a perspective thing. It's a lot easier to dismiss 3 dead as unimportant when you've never been in this situation yourself, and probably never will be.

Given some of the short-sighted responses here, there are definitely a few "insurrectionists" that we can do without.

Yeah I've never been around death.:rolleyes:

I'm not saying the deaths of innocent people is unimportant. I'm saying that we should practice an anarchist and not a bourgeois response. Why don't the people who did this, come out, admit it (not publically, but anonomously) and then why doesn't the movement support the families of those who died? You know...mutual aid?


Also, allow me to LOL at the 'your syndicalist friends', implying a hostility against syndicalism, which is a general LOL and pity to your direction.


Which group of anarchists was it that turned other anarchists into university authorities for supposedly stealing computers? Which group of anarchists is currently calling for the limiting of tactics and a rejection of violence as it is becoming more socially acceptable?

We need to keep pushing, not back off.

[FSL]

We need to keep pushing, not back off.


More pointless violence directed at buildings and workers. We won't stop until no one protests, until fascism is the desire of all.

[The Douche]

More pointless violence directed at buildings and workers. We won't stop until no one protests, until fascism is the desire of all.

Within recent history your party has killed anarchists, I have no reason to have a discussion with you.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm pretty disappointed with much of the discourse on this thread, to be honest.

No one's helping "the cause" by hurling accusations at each other.

[The Douche]

I'm pretty disappointed with much of the discourse on this thread, to be honest.

No one's helping "the cause" by hurling accusations at each other.

What accusations? The KKE is a recuperating entity, that has in fact killed anarchists.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I wasn't referring to your comment...when I hit "reply" your comment wasn't even showing, in fact.

I was referring more to the syndicalist vs. insurrectionist contention.

[The Douche]

I wasn't referring to your comment...when I hit "reply" your comment wasn't even showing, in fact.

I was referring more to the syndicalist vs. insurrectionist contention.

There is always going to be that discussion, from now and forever into the future until the revolution. Social anarchists are always going to attack insurrectionaries (and vice versa) and the Leninists are always going to be attacking/getting attacked as well.

What is the point of a false "unity" amongst factions that have concrete differences, both in practice/tactics and theory/future vision?

There are people hoping that the KKE take a leading role in this struggle. I think we need to call that out, because I think the KKE is an organization that manages and mediates worker's struggle, and that, if given the chance, they will play the role of the PCF of 68.

[Os Cangaceiros]

What is the point of a false "unity" amongst factions that have concrete differences, both in practice/tactics and theory/future vision?

I'd just like the difference of ideas to be framed in a manner that doesn't include moronic insults, that's all. Regardless of what your tactical stance is (and personally I see problems with both orthodox syndicalism and insurrectionary anarchism), we're all roughly on the same side...I mean, we're all anarchists, unless you want to be absurdly sectarian and ex-communicate people from the fold. Calling people "anarkiddies" and telling posters to go fuck themselves isn't encouraging the dialogue I'd like to see.

Maybe the problem is magnified on the Internet, though. I've met and spoken with plenty of Marxists and have never experienced the kind of rhetoric that I see here all the time.

[Eastside Revolt]

the problem is magnified on the Internet, though. I've met and spoken with plenty of Marxists and have never experienced the kind of rhetoric that I see here all the time.

- this should be the header for the website....

[bcbm]

Which is precisely why it's achieved so little.

odd that so much attention is being devoted to it here, then. i think comparatively the greek anarchists are doing pretty well for themselves, though of course there is always room for improvement.

[CChocobo]

Sad whoever suggests handing over comrades to the police. That would make you on the side of the state, and repression. Side with the pigs and you're no comrade of mine.
The anarchists in greece are doing great. I think the insurrection in 2008 especially did a lot to make people more socially aware. Especially within the younger generation, it was a good way for anarchists to get their ideas across in the many occupations of schools/universities, and in general assemblies and meetings, and just in the streets.

Some of you want to criticize insurrection, but rreally it's something that's been going on for generations. We don't see that kind of stuff over in the u.s. or you dont anarchists in the UK hurling molotovs at the police or burning down the banks. Their tactics, their way of doing things are different, given the circumstances there. I think they're doing fine in getting their ideas across in communiques, and just working in the occupations and communes, and doing things like community gardens, or parks, etc.

And well.. as far as the KKE is concerned, they're working AGAINST most of the anarchists and leftists. In fact they condemned the uprisings in 2008 over 15 year old alexis being shot by pigs. They tried to lock the universities to keep students and anarchists from occupying the facility and letting the pigs beat them. They tried to protect the state's armed thugs from molotovs and stones lol. For spouting revolution they sure as fuck seem to be pretty reactionary. Oh and quick to stab us in the back just as what's always been done..

[FSL]

odd that so much attention is being devoted to it here, then. i think comparatively the greek anarchists are doing pretty well for themselves, though of course there is always room for improvement.

There is attention to it for a very spesific reason and that is having 3 people die of asphyxiation because a bank had to be burned as that's the way to smash capitalism.

And all that with IMF in the country, the 3rd austerity programme in 5 months and 200k workers on the streets of Athens.

You think that's "doing pretty well"? You don't think that a sizable chunk of greek anarchists are finally waking up and smelling the coffee regarding this "strategy"?

You know what's the problem. You weren't in the largest protest you've seen just a few days ago thinking "finally people are waking up" only to hear news of the deaths hours later. You didn't first dismiss them as nonsense and propaganda only to find out they were true. And you didn't get to see how all the media feasted on that and how pretty much everyone reacted (and to be honest rightfully).

So, no it's not ok. We won't have many people busting their asses so that some riot-horny idiot can destroy it all later. That won't be the case, simple as that.

[bcbm]

There is attention to it for a very spesific reason and that is having 3 people die of asphyxiation because a bank had to be burned as that's the way to smash capitalism.

people have been talking about greek anarchists since at least 2008 and certainly earlier within anarchist circles.


You think that's "doing pretty well"? You don't think that a sizable chunk of greek anarchists are finally waking up and smelling the coffee regarding this "strategy"?

i think the greek anarchist movement has been doing better than most other contemporary anarchist movements, which is not to say that their strategy is without problems, as i stated in my initial post.

i think it is also probably false to say that all greek anarchists are on the same page regarding the "insurrectionist" strategy.


You know what's the problem. You weren't in the largest protest you've seen just a few days ago thinking "finally people are waking up" only to hear news of the deaths hours later. You didn't first dismiss them as nonsense and propaganda only to find out they were true. And you didn't get to see how all the media feasted on that and how pretty much everyone reacted (and to be honest rightfully).

So, no it's not ok. We won't have many people busting their asses so that some riot-horny idiot can destroy it all later. That won't be the case, simple as that.

i don't recall saying that it was okay, but only that the greek anarchist movement is doing comparatively well. and if your movement can be dissipated by a few "riot-horny" idiots then i don't think it will ever get anywhere. obviously it is completely horrible that the workers died and of course this should mean a rethinking of strategy on the part of those responsible, but i think the bank workers deciding to go on strike the next day and the message released by one of the workers are a good sign that things are still moving forward.

[Black Sheep]

Which group of anarchists was it that turned other anarchists into university authorities for supposedly stealing computers? Which group of anarchists is currently calling for the limiting of tactics and a rejection of violence as it is becoming more socially acceptable?The 1st incident you 'heard of', took place in thessalonica.
There were some actions planned at the university, coordinated and discussed by AM (=anti-authoritarian movement) of thessalonica and other anarchist councils from the city.

In it, it was CLEARLY and DIRECTLY decided that no damage will be made to the university and nothing will be stolen.Some boneheads completely ignored what had been decided by themselves and the other anarchists organizing the action, and went ahead and stole some computers from the university's lab, and some AMites went furious and beat them up the other day.

Now your comrades,those modern robin hoods,who were going to distribute the PCs to the poor i'm sure, responded to this by blowing AM's place with gas canisters (what's the word? :blink:).
See? great.Beating up for ignoring the council's decision and acting like an individualist prick? We'll blow you to smithereens!


The interesting part is that when, several days after, the cops were getting close to the identity of the ones that stole the PCs, AM called them in Athens and warned them.


Which group of anarchists is currently calling for the limiting of tactics and a rejection of violence as it is becoming more socially acceptable?Oh, are you talking about the anouncement of AM (http://www.resistance2003.gr/el/news/story.php?id=258), which bashed the fetishism of violence, the individualist,non-ideologically driven violence, the violent action which is distant and does not take into account popular struggles,
mocked and destroyed the idealism of the 'specialists of violence'?
The organization that gathered, organized thousands in an fairly organized block, which after the incident of may 5th, condemned the state's false and pretentious tears about the dead, made shard self-criticism and criticism of the movement in general and the means of violence it uses, and pointed to those morally AND practically responsible?

What can i say then, i wish you a swift recovery from the anarcho-rambo state of mind.

[bots]

anarcho-rambo

found my new tendency.

but hey. sucks when people die, especially being burned to death or asphyxiated. getting crushed in rubble for days would suck too.

i know it's awful to say but a lot of people are probably going to die during any revolution. maybe we should rethink our strategies. maybe we should plant more gardens.

or maybe we should whittle some recurve bows because they drew first blood.


anarcho-rambo

[Bitter Ashes]

This is totaly ridiculous. It's not up to us to rule on right and wrong. It's for the Greek people to do that and they're doing that right now.

If somebody's done something out of line, it'll all come to light after the revolution and will be dealt with by the comrades in Greece. In the meantime it's innocent until proven guilty. We've certainly got no grounds to condemn anyone right now.

[Zanthorus]

If somebody's done something out of line, it'll all come to light after the revolution and will be dealt with by the comrades in Greece.

Don't you think this is getting a bit ahead of yourself? From what I can see the movement in Greece, though inspiring, is farely uncoordinated and at the moment not likely to lead to the creation of any alternative model for society.

[Bitter Ashes]

Don't you think this is getting a bit ahead of yourself? From what I can see the movement in Greece, though inspiring, is farely uncoordinated and at the moment not likely to lead to the creation of any alternative model for society.
Well, even if it doesnt then, there's still no reason that the workers in Greece cant perform an investigation of thier own.

[bots]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qIgVrOy9vM&feature=fvst

i think the wisdom of john rambo is pertinent to this conversation.

[BeerShaman]

More pointless violence directed at buildings and workers. We won't stop until no one protests, until fascism is the desire of all.
FUCK YOU SHIT! There are a real lot of true anarchists in Greece and they are not fascists. I am against burning banks e.t.c... just for its being symbolic. However, just some hools do some shit-jobs now and then like the shop of an old woman which was burnt once and then anarchists paid it back. WE PAID FOR WHAT IGNORANT HOOL-FOOLS DID. Not anarchists. Anarchists don't do fascist actions. Burning all these banks just for its being symbolic is, yes, rather senseless. But it's not fascist. It is still a means of protest. As an anarchist I wouldn't do it and I don't like anarchists doing it. However, I do not condemn it as an act generally. An angered citizen should do it if we wanted to. Fascist is something which by violence removes the right of someone else t odo something. Bank owners have no right to own their banks and whatever this leads to, ethically speaking.:cursing::glare::mad: So, burnt banks are not fascism, because they just cause justice. Not, loss of rights. Stop thinking like a fucking middle class reformist shit. We don't live in a free society yet, thus meaning that violence which is towards us can justly be answered with violence. I just wished that our violence was more meaningful and effective. Your prejudice against direct action is fascist and your answering to the statement and call for organisation by condemning it and by using irony is even more fascist. YOU ARE REACTIONARY. THAT'S MORE FASCIST! STOP THINKING LIKE A MIDDLE CLASS! FOR FUCK'S SAKE!!! You people blame all but your party? FFS!

[bots]

FUCK YOU SHIT!

shit just got real.

[BeerShaman]

Sad whoever suggests handing over comrades to the police. That would make you on the side of the state, and repression. Side with the pigs and you're no comrade of mine.
The anarchists in greece are doing great. I think the insurrection in 2008 especially did a lot to make people more socially aware. Especially within the younger generation, it was a good way for anarchists to get their ideas across in the many occupations of schools/universities, and in general assemblies and meetings, and just in the streets.

Some of you want to criticize insurrection, but rreally it's something that's been going on for generations. We don't see that kind of stuff over in the u.s. or you dont anarchists in the UK hurling molotovs at the police or burning down the banks. Their tactics, their way of doing things are different, given the circumstances there. I think they're doing fine in getting their ideas across in communiques, and just working in the occupations and communes, and doing things like community gardens, or parks, etc.

And well.. as far as the KKE is concerned, they're working AGAINST most of the anarchists and leftists. In fact they condemned the uprisings in 2008 over 15 year old alexis being shot by pigs. They tried to lock the universities to keep students and anarchists from occupying the facility and letting the pigs beat them. They tried to protect the state's armed thugs from molotovs and stones lol. For spouting revolution they sure as fuck seem to be pretty reactionary. Oh and quick to stab us in the back just as what's always been done..

The KKE condemned the riots of 2008, while hailing the riots in France in 2003-2004 by the ghettoists which were excessively similar. In addition, before 50 years it was far more direct actions' style than what insurrectionarry anarchists do today... And before a month or two it's members were protesting and cops were protesting for the harsh measures of the government too, while the "K"KE members hailed and clapped for the cops... So middle class let's do it all together comrade Mr. Reformist things!

[BeerShaman]

shit just got real.
Excuse me borther. I just have seen the hell of a shit in KKE's actions. They don't follow even Marx anymore it seems. But they are still called Marxists-Leninists. I just feel the need to fight it! I can't stand it!

[bots]

Excuse me borther. I just have seen the hell of a shit in KKE's actions. They don't follow even Marx anymore it seems. But they are still called Marxists-Leninists. I just feel the need to fight it! I can't stand it!

oh i'm not criticizing. fight the good fight my man.

[manic expression]

FUCK YOU SHIT! There are a real lot of true anarchists in Greece and they are not fascists.
Hey there, wild one, no one said the anarchists in Greece are all fascists...the point was that anarchist actions such as burning down a bank with people inside drives people away from revolutionary activity. Righteous indignation is a lot more effective if you figure out what you're dissing first, but you're a rebel, so who cares?


The KKE condemned the riots of 2008, while hailing the riots in France in 2003-2004 by the ghettoists which were excessively similar.
:lol: "Excessively similar"? Why? Because people were throwing objects at cops? I'd just love to hear you tell us why they were so similar.

[Devrim]

:lol: "Excessively similar"? Why?

I think it is really rude to laugh at the linguistic mistakes of people who are not native speakers.

Devrim

[Coggeh]

:lol: "Excessively similar"? Why? Because people were throwing objects at cops? I'd just love to hear you tell us why they were so similar.

While i think they were different in the sense that the build ups to the riots but the two triggering events were virtually the same in france 2 youths killed by police built around the disfranchisement of young people and the police more-so immigrant youths and in Greece the shooting of the youth by police which triggered the riots.

I completely agree with your first point , this juvenile action by anarchists and further actions like this should be ultimately opposed by the organised workers movement, it does nothing but damage the movement and gives the media and the bourgeois an excuse for further crackdowns on protests and organised workers actions while giving them a certain credibility among the international press and workers outside Greece who would naturally condemn the actions and many would associate the workers movement in Greece with with these types of actions.

I think anarchist need to come out collectively and condemn these actions i know many have already on this site but the mass of anarchist movements need to also.

[manic expression]

I think it is really rude to laugh at the linguistic mistakes of people who are not native speakers.
Devrim, there is no linguistic mistake in the portion I quoted, I wasn't laughing at that at all. What the poster wrote is fully correct so there was nothing for me to laugh at anyway. I was laughing at the idea that Paris and Greece happened under the same circumstances, when the former was about opposing the bigotry of the French capitalist state, while the rioters in Greece were criticized by the KKE for co-opting a genuine grievance into wanton violence.

[Coggeh]

Devrim, there is no linguistic mistake in the portion I quoted, I wasn't laughing at that at all. What the poster wrote is fully correct so there was nothing for me to laugh at anyway. I was laughing at the idea that Paris and Greece happened under the same circumstances, when the former was about opposing the bigotry of the French capitalist state, while the rioters in Greece were criticized by the KKE for co-opting a genuine grievance into wanton violence.

It was a natural response by the disorganised youth to go to violence and fringe leftwing movements. By condemning it the KKE just isolated themselves further from the youth movement. Leftists should have given critical support to the violent protests and stage their own organised fightback against the shooting and the armed state repression.

[FSL]

It was a natural response by the disorganised youth to go to violence and fringe leftwing movements. By condemning it the KKE just isolated themselves further from the youth movement. Leftists should have given critical support to the violent protests and stage their own organised fightback against the shooting and the armed state repression.

Was that what happened? Isolation from the youth movement?

Where are the university occupations now? The tens of thousands of students that were out on the streets a few years ago? Nowhere to be found. That's what your revolutionism amounts to.

You think you should "critically support" car burning? Do so. Other parties have organs and reach to decisions by the collective and for the collective. When it comes to car burning and the likes the CP in Greece takes a negative stance. Disagree with it, it still won't change it.

And regarding Paris. No one supported the "riots" (that were used a pretext by the then minister of interior Sarkozy to accuse all the protesters as "thugs" and build up support for his election). But what the party did do was say that beyond the riots, there were many many people protesting for social exclusion that had racial and class roots disproving the notion of "history reaching its end".
At no point, were the events in Paris measured by the number of broken windows or arsons.

[FSL]

FUCK YOU SHIT! There are a real lot of true anarchists in Greece and they are not fascists. I am against burning banks e.t.c... just for its being symbolic. However, just some hools do some shit-jobs now and then like the shop of an old woman which was burnt once and then anarchists paid it back. WE PAID FOR WHAT IGNORANT HOOL-FOOLS DID. Not anarchists. Anarchists don't do fascist actions. Burning all these banks just for its being symbolic is, yes, rather senseless. But it's not fascist. It is still a means of protest. As an anarchist I wouldn't do it and I don't like anarchists doing it. However, I do not condemn it as an act generally. An angered citizen should do it if we wanted to. Fascist is something which by violence removes the right of someone else t odo something. Bank owners have no right to own their banks and whatever this leads to, ethically speaking.:cursing::glare::mad: So, burnt banks are not fascism, because they just cause justice. Not, loss of rights. Stop thinking like a fucking middle class reformist shit. We don't live in a free society yet, thus meaning that violence which is towards us can justly be answered with violence. I just wished that our violence was more meaningful and effective. Your prejudice against direct action is fascist and your answering to the statement and call for organisation by condemning it and by using irony is even more fascist. YOU ARE REACTIONARY. THAT'S MORE FASCIST! STOP THINKING LIKE A MIDDLE CLASS! FOR FUCK'S SAKE!!! You people blame all but your party? FFS!

Ehm, ok.

My point was -and still is- that if someone wants to demonstrate his revolutionary credentials and prove anyone but him a reformist, that's pretty easy. All he needs to do is go wild, smash, burn and offer some nice youtube moments to the like-minded.

But since all he cares for is that and not actually improving the conditions for revolutionary change, getting in touch with workers and so on, I refuse to see that person as a "comrade" to whom I owe any amount of support.

I don't have a "prejudice against direct action". I have eyes that allow me to see its results.

[Devrim]

Devrim, there is no linguistic mistake in the portion I quoted, I wasn't laughing at that at all.

This was the line:


:lol: "Excessively similar"? Why? Because people were throwing objects at cops? I'd just love to hear you tell us why they were so similar.

I just presumed that the laughing sign next to 'excessively similar' meant that you were laughing at that, which is a mistake.

If I misunderstood you I apologise.

Devrim

[manic expression]

I just presumed that the laughing sign next to 'excessively similar' meant that you were laughing at that, which is a mistake.

If I misunderstood you I apologise.
Well then the joke's on me, because I thought "excessively similar" was perfectly acceptable English. :blushing:

[The Douche]

Hey there, wild one, no one said the anarchists in Greece are all fascists...the point was that anarchist actions such as burning down a bank with people inside drives people away from revolutionary activity. Righteous indignation is a lot more effective if you figure out what you're dissing first, but you're a rebel, so who cares?


Anarchists did not "burn down a bank with people inside". Anarchists burnt down a bank and people were trapped inside. This might seem like a petty and semantic difference, but I think it is worth noting. Those anarchists did not "kill those workers" (as in, they approached the situation with the intent to kill them), those workers died because of the actions of anarchists.

I don't want to sound inhumane and just say "people die in revolution" (though they do, and that is fair to say). I think we need to resolve this issue, but we need to do it in a revolutionary manner. I think the anarchists need to practice mutual aid and support the families who they've hurt.

This is not the time to shun violence or pack our movement up and quit. The class war is escalating and these kind of things will become unfortunately more common. But the violence of an anarchist march is pales in comparisson to the violence of the state and capital.



Also, anarcho-ramboist for the fucking win.

[BeerShaman]

Devrim, there is no linguistic mistake in the portion I quoted, I wasn't laughing at that at all. What the poster wrote is fully correct so there was nothing for me to laugh at anyway. I was laughing at the idea that Paris and Greece happened under the same circumstances, when the former was about opposing the bigotry of the French capitalist state, while the rioters in Greece were criticized by the KKE for co-opting a genuine grievance into wanton violence.

Oh this will become tiring. Sorry for being so "rude" :). I just don't like some things like that. And yes, Coggeh answered you correctly. As I said already I totally agree. But, I was angered by the fact that what FSL typed there was an answer filled in prejudice and indirectly condemning more than should be (I think in a dishonoured way...) And I'm not just a rebel if you rebel along with me... :) What do you mean rebel?

[BeerShaman]

No. KKE was "for" the actions in Paris. It was written on KNE's site. I don't remember exactly.

[BeerShaman]

I understand what you say. However I also had some points in what I said (other than bad words). You can't condemn breaking and call it fascist. You can just claim that it is a non-effective or bad action that harms generally. It is not fascist (you said that). Up to the point where it harms movements and estranges them from the workers, yes I agree. In fact in my organizations i am generally almost always against breaking. But while using irony, you mentionned something exaggerated. Thus, i aswered in the same way.

[FSL]

It is not fascist (you said that). Up to the point where it harms movements and estranges them from the workers, yes I agree.

No, I didn't say it was fascist, I said that it serves only to turn people to the right, to wanting more police on the streets, security cams everywhere etc.

"until no one protests, until fascism is the desire of all"

What I did say about it, was

"More pointless violence"

[CChocobo]

Ehm, ok.

My point was -and still is- that if someone wants to demonstrate his revolutionary credentials and prove anyone but him a reformist, that's pretty easy. All he needs to do is go wild, smash, burn and offer some nice youtube moments to the like-minded.

But since all he cares for is that and not actually improving the conditions for revolutionary change, getting in touch with workers and so on, I refuse to see that person as a "comrade" to whom I owe any amount of support.

I don't have a "prejudice against direct action". I have eyes that allow me to see its results.

*sigh*

Comrade, you really shouldn't generalize all anarchists as bank burning, street fighting hooded youths with masks on their face. I'm sure there are plenty of anarchists within greece, and everywhere who are doing a lot to show working class why anarchism is a better alternative to the current system we live under.
I think the more actions/demonstrations you have the more opportunity you'll see for ideas to mix, and discussions taking place.

I don't think violence gets a point across, but do i condemn them? No. I just think more can be done to organize better, and provide the community with examples, reasons anarchism would help them, be more beneficial to them than believing in the lies of a party, or politician.

[FSL]

you really shouldn't generalize all anarchists as bank burning, street fighting hooded youths with masks on their face


I don't generalize, I'm only speaking of the ones who are like that. The others I simply disagree with.



I don't think violence gets a point across, but do i condemn them? No.


You probably should.

[Fietsketting]

I never said to turn anarchists over to the cops. Also, there are profound differences between insurrectionist anarchists and mere pseudo-anarkiddie hooligans.


And ofcourse your the person to decide all that? Turning in people, just the mere thought of it! Go get yourself a uniform mate

[Delenda Carthago]

Wow, strange, since the anti-authoritarian movement was formed only 7 years ago, in 2003.
Congrats for pulling stuff out of your ass to support your position.:cursing:


you r an idiot.

[Black Sheep]

No. KKE was "for" the actions in Paris. It was written on KNE's site. I don't remember exactly.
Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjbuHCs-04o&feature=channel



you r an idiot.
It was a misunderstanding dude.

[Delenda Carthago]

sorry then.

[The Douche]

I don't generalize, I'm only speaking of the ones who are like that. The others I simply disagree with.



You probably should.

Do you condemn your own party for their violence against anarchists?

[Omi]

Anarchists did not "burn down a bank with people inside". Anarchists burnt down a bank and people were trapped inside. This might seem like a petty and semantic difference, but I think it is worth noting. Those anarchists did not "kill those workers" (as in, they approached the situation with the intent to kill them), those workers died because of the actions of anarchists.

I don't want to sound inhumane and just say "people die in revolution" (though they do, and that is fair to say). I think we need to resolve this issue, but we need to do it in a revolutionary manner. I think the anarchists need to practice mutual aid and support the families who they've hurt.

This is not the time to shun violence or pack our movement up and quit. The class war is escalating and these kind of things will become unfortunately more common. But the violence of an anarchist march is pales in comparisson to the violence of the state and capital.



Also, anarcho-ramboist for the fucking win.


To further expand on that, we are not even sure if anarchists did this. The only source we have proving that anarchists are responsible for the fire is the mainstream media, who within hours of the news spreading that people died in the fire, immediately claimed anarchists where responsible. This event triggered massive repression against anything remotely connected to anarchism in general (immigrant aid organisations where also attacked by police) but that does not in any way mean that anarchists where responsible at all.

Of course there is a good chance they where, it is not uncommon for anarchists in Greece to light fire to some banks, but there are stories going round about police provokers inside the march, which is not uncommon at all in Greece.

So please people, lets not denounce each others tendencies until it is clear who is responsible and why.

[this is an invasion]

wow, calm down. Also Black Sheep is "from there", but no one said that we shouldnt criticize people because we arent from the particular place.Its a discussion forum, and discussion is what you get.

Then I take that part back.

[FSL]

Do you condemn your own party for their violence against anarchists?

There is no more "violence against anarchists" from my party than there is "violence against my party" from anarchists.

I don't know what you may think but the truth is the two sides rarely even meet. Anarchists demonstrate with the main unions while communists organize their own demos.