Riots erupt in Athens, 3 bank workers killed

[KurtFF8]

(Note that this was written by the American AP)

Source (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100505/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_greece_financial_crisis;_ylt=AnIhzOqSzT2AG3PwPC eQBDWs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNxbm1nODJ2BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMT AwNTA1L2V1X2dyZWVjZV9maW5hbmNpYWxfY3Jpc2lzBGNjb2Rl A21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDMgRwdANob21lX2Nva2 UEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDcmlvdHNlcnVwdGlu)



By DEREK GATOPOULOS and ELENA BECATOROS, Associated Press Writer Derek Gatopoulos And Elena Becatoros, Associated Press Writer – 25 mins ago
ATHENS, Greece – Deadly riots over harsh new austerity measures engulfed the streets of Athens on Wednesday, killing three bank workers as angry protesters tried to storm parliament, hurled Molotov cocktails at police and torched buildings.
Tens of thousands of people took to the streets as part of nationwide strikes to protest new taxes and government spending cuts demanded by the International Monetary Fund and other European nations before heavily indebted Greece gets a euro110 billion ($141 billion) bailout package of loans to keep it from defaulting.
The three bank workers — a man and two women — died after demonstrators set their bank on fire along the main demonstration route in central Athens. As their colleagues sobbed in the street, five other bank workers were rescued from the balcony of the burning building.
"A demonstration is one thing and murder is quite another!" Prime Minister George Papandreou thundered in Parliament during a session to discuss the spending cuts he announced Sunday — measures even the IMF has called draconian. Lawmakers held a minute of silence for the dead — the first deaths during a protest in Greece since 1991.
"We are all concerned by Greece's economic and budgetary situation but at this time our thoughts are with the human victims in Athens," European Union President Herman Van Rompuy said in Brussels.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel called the bailout critical for all of Europe.
"Nothing less than the future of Europe, and with that the future of Germany in Europe, is at stake," Merkel told lawmakers in Berlin, urging them to quickly pass the country's share of the bailout — euro22 billion ($28 billion) over three years — by Friday. "We are at a fork in the road."
European Union officials tried to calm market fears that Greece's debt crisis was spreading to the rest of Europe, insisting the debt-ridden country is a "unique case" combining profligacy and tampered accounts. Van Rompuy said the situation in Spain and Portugal has "absolutely nothing to do with the situation in Greece."
"Greece is a unique and particular case in the EU" because of its "precarious debt dynamics" and because it "has cheated with its statistics for years and years," EU Commissioner Olli Rehn said in Brussels.
But Moody's Investor Services, a major ratings agency, put Portugal's bond rating on review for possible downgrade Wednesday. Spanish and Portuguese bonds and stocks slumped further on the news, reflecting fears that they may likewise have trouble repaying their debt and that the eurozone would have to extend even larger bailouts to them.
On the streets of Athens, demonstrators chanted "Thieves, thieves!" as they attempted to break through a riot police cordon guarding Parliament and chased ceremonial guards away from the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in front of the building.
Tear gas drifted across the city center as rioters hurled paving stones and fire bombs at police. Firefighters extinguished blazes in at least two buildings — the bank and a branch of the Finance Ministry — while protesters set up burning barricades and torched cars and a fire truck.
Police said 12 people were injured in the riots.
The marches came amid a 24-hour nationwide general strike that grounded all flights to and from Greece, shut down ports, schools and government services, and left hospitals working with emergency medical staff. The Acropolis and all other ancient sites were closed and journalists also walked off the job, suspending television and radio news broadcasts.
But media later broke the strike to report on the deaths and the violent protests.
Violence also broke out in the northern city of Thessaloniki, where another 20,000 people marched through the city center, with youths smashing windows of stores and fast food restaurants.
Union reaction until now had been relatively muted by Greece's volatile standards, despite several previous strikes. But anger mounted after Papandreou announced cuts in salaries and pensions for civil servants, and another round of consumer tax increases.
Papandreou said he has no choice but to implement the measures if Greece was to avoid bankruptcy.
"There was only one other solution. For the country to default, taking the citizenry with it. And that would not have affected the rich, it would have affected workers and pensioners," he told Parliament on Wednesday. "That was a real possibility, however nightmarish."
Under the bailout package, Greece will receive loans over three years from the IMF and the other 15 eurozone countries. The rescue aims to prevent Athens' debt troubles from becoming a wider crisis for the euro by engulfing other financially troubled countries such as Spain and Portugal. Greece faces a May 19 due date on debt it says it can't repay without the help.
But the rioting underlined skepticism that the Greek government could keep up its end of the bargain, helping drive the euro below $1.29 for the first time in over a year.
Even with the bailout, many economists think Greece will eventually default on or restructure its debts because its prospects for economic growth are so poor over the next several years, hurting government revenue. Some fear the austerity measures insisted upon by the EU and IMF could even make the growth situation worse by depriving the economy of stimulus from government spending — even as it helps reduce the deficit.
Greek unions concede that the cash-strapped government was forced to increase consumer taxes and slash spending, including cutting salaries and pensions for civil servants.
But they say low-income Greeks will suffer disproportionately from the measures, which aim to save euro30 billion ($40 billion) — the country's current budget deficit — through 2012.
"These people are losing their rights, they are losing their future," said Yiannis Panagopoulos, head of GSEE, one of the two largest union organizations. "The country cannot surrender without a fight."
IMF head Dominique Strauss-Kahn warned that the crisis could spread to other countries despite the rescue package's efforts to contain it.
"Everyone must remain extremely vigilant," to this risk, Strauss-Kahn said in an interview published in French newspaper Le Parisien Wednesday.
"I completely understand the Greek populations' anger, its incomprehension at the size of the economic catastrophe," Strauss-Kahn said. But Greeks must also understand that without these measures, "the situation would be infinitely more serious," he said.
The draft bill of the new austerity measures is to be voted on Thursday. Papandreou's Socialists hold a comfortable majority of 160 in the 300-seat Parliament, and with a simple majority of 151 votes needed, the bill is expected to be passed easily.
___
APTN crews in Athens and Associated Press writers Nicholas Paphitis in Athens, Greg Keller in Paris and Raf Casert in Brussels contributed.


http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20100505/capt.7da752d13c5f4a3e9d209c4395a3c346-7da752d13c5f4a3e9d209c4395a3c346-0.jpg?x=400&y=297&q=85&sig=Cg4eOgQxAeQoqKSVneKcSw--

[DenisDenis]

Spain having a history of rebellion (and one of anarchy) it could easily copy the same things they have in greece, if that were to happen the rest of europe could follow! I have my hopes up for 2010 :D

[the last donut of the night]

Now, in my belief, what is needed, is a workers' vanguard party. Only a strong party will be able to organize and use this anger toward socialist revolutions. All my hopes and support go to the Greek working class.

[Nolan]

Now, in my belief, what is needed, is a workers' vanguard party. Only a strong party will be able to organize and use this anger toward socialist revolutions. All my hopes and support go to the Greek working class.

The KKE is ready to take on the duties of vanguard.

[Gravedigger01]

Hopefully the Greeks will lead the way and soon will be followed by the other PIGS

[Coggeh]

The KKE is ready to take on the duties of vanguard.

What is needed is unified workers movement of trade unions, the KKE and Syriza the other far left party. The leadership of Syriza and the KKE need to show real practical leadership in organising democratic committees in the workplace with the unions.

It is clear the government has no further mandate from the greek populance and their majority in the govt is put a fig leaf of real democracy.

Also very sad about the 3 people who were killed in the fire, no doubt this will overshadow it to a degree but hopefully people won't lose focus on the real issues at hand (not that the media are going to give a sh*t)

[Enragé]

http://libcom.org/news/war-zone-athens-three-people-dead-many-buildings-burning-general-strike-march-turns-battle-

[...]
According to news reports that began at 14:00 Greek time after, under pressure by the events, most radio and TV stations decided to break their strike, claim that the fire at Marfin Bank’s Stadiou street branch that has led to the death of three workers (one a pregnant woman) was started by protesters. However this remains an unsubstantiated claim. A similar case three decades ago had originally put the blame for the fire at Kappa-Marousi building on Panepistimiou street, leading to the death of several people inside, to anarchists, while its was later proved the fire was caused by tear gas fired by the police.

[...]


After the tragic death of the three workers made the round of Athens, new clashes started to spread in the Greek capital, with a large crowd gathered outside the burned bank when Marfin's boss tried to visit the site. Clashes broke out between the crowd and police when the former attacked the bank magnate accusing him of forcing the dead workers to scab on a general strike and locking them in the building despite them demanding to evacuate it since 12:00.

[...]

In Parliament the Communist Party of Greece has accused the government for the deaths, claiming it was a result of agents provocateur fascist groups. The claims of the Communist Party are based on the fact that 50 fascists tried to enter the PAME demo bearing the flags of the union earlier in the morning. The fascists were spotted, chased and sought refuge behind riot police lines. Accusing the extreme-right as being behind the deaths, the Coalition of Radical Left has declared in Parliament that the government cannot pretend to be in grief for the loss of life, as it has been attacking human life by all means possible.

[...]

the union of bank workers (OTOE) has declared a strike for tomorrow in response to the death of the three bank workers today. The union puts the blame for the deaths on the bank bosses and the police.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Now, in my belief, what is needed, is a workers' vanguard party. Only a strong party will be able to organize and use this anger toward socialist revolutions. All my hopes and support go to the Greek working class.

And it begins.

They need a broad revolutionary workers mobilization, not another party that will just be as corrupt as the last.

[Nolan]

And it begins. Don't you guys have enough revolutions to ruin?

They need a broad revolutionary workers mobilization, not another party that will just be as corrupt as the last.

Now now, just let the grown-ups handle it, we don't need utopian bullshit spoiling the revolution.

[bie]

And it begins. Don't you guys have enough revolutions to ruin?

They need a broad revolutionary workers mobilization, not another party that will just be as corrupt as the last.

Sure, and the worker's republic will defend, feed and rule on its own by the will of the masses. Sorry lads, but this is not only utopian and idealistic - but also harmful. A political party is an organization developed in order to take the political action and also carry on administration and security measures while in charge. We need a strong and militant organization capable of leading the working class and its allies towards the victory of the socialist revolution and - to defent the gains of the people against external threat and internal counterrevolution. Class struggle is a war. There is no place for utopian views. All lacks in the organisation, lack of coordination etc. in 100% will be exploited by our enemies. And there are organizations capable of taking this task. KKE is one of them!

[Meridian]

Now now, just let the grown-ups handle it, we don't need utopian bullshit spoiling the revolution.
Yes, because that is usually the way it plays out...

[bie]

It usually ends up in rising the level and quality of life of vast majority of the society: workers, peasants etc. It also has huge achievements on the field of quality and accessibility of public services - free hospitals, schools; getting rid of exploitation and unemployment, giving many people even chances.. but for some reason those fact do not find as much supporters as those "homemade critics" who do not only lack knowledge about the Socialism - but - forget its main aim - that is facilitation of the human progress and solving the most important problems of the country.

If you spend as much time on studying history of Peoples Democracies and socialist states as you spend on anticommunist propaganda, you will certainly get more understanding.

[~Spectre]

One of the last major riots provided epic pictures. Hopefully the cameras are dialed in.

[the last donut of the night]

And it begins.

They need a broad revolutionary workers mobilization, not another party that will just be as corrupt as the last.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying -- the vanguard IS a broad revolutionary workers' mobilization.

[The Grey Blur]

Forget the 'vanguard', we need a united front of all the worker's parties and groups (the anarcho-syndicalists as well) to push for the installation of councils and committees in the workplace, the government has zero authority any longer. Within these of course a Bolshevik line of all power to the workers should be put forward.

Thanks for the libcom post, I heard similar rumours of the boss being responsible for the incident. Poor bastards.

[theblackmask]

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2010/05/05/an-employee-of-marfin-bank-speaks-on-tonights-tragic-deaths-in-athens/

Here's a statement by one of the bank employees I think does a great job of putting the blame on the right people. While it's always tragic when people die in situations like this, let's not forget that bank owners did not have any fire precautions taken beyond a few extinguishers, and they forced the workers to come to work that day.

[Wanted Man]

the union of bank workers (OTOE) has declared a strike for tomorrow in response to the death of the three bank workers today. The union puts the blame for the deaths on the bank bosses and the police.

This is a good response, as is the statement by the bank employee linked to above. A very clear indictment of the scum bosses, and it shows that these tragic deaths are not a reason to end the struggle, but to continue it more vigorously. I hope the situation on the ground corresponds to what has been said here.

[Leo]

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2...ths-in-athens/ (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2010/05/05/an-employee-of-marfin-bank-speaks-on-tonights-tragic-deaths-in-athens/)

Here's a statement by one of the bank employees I think does a great job of putting the blame on the right people. While it's always tragic when people die in situations like this, let's not forget that bank owners did not have any fire precautions taken beyond a few extinguishers, and they forced the workers to come to work that day.

I was actually just going to post that. Actually the fact that the "two undercover police who are dispatched at the branch in question for robbery prevention did not show up" despite the fact that "the bank’s management had verbally promised to the employees that they would be there" makes me think that this is quite possibly a state provocation. The immediate hysteria of the media and the politicians, mixed with calls to "destroy all anarchists in 24 hours" by the mayor of Athens, also points out to the same direction.


The KKE is ready to take on the duties of vanguard.

The KKE is nothing but a nationalist, counter-revolutionary party of the Greek ruling class. Even recently, when the events of the last December were taking place, they had shown their true colors denouncing the movement and the protesters as "pawns of dark foreign powers" (basically identical to what they did in 1973, when the National Technical University was occupied by the students and workers, which led to the overthrow of the Colonels' Junta), physically trying to prevent mass assemblies from gathering and trying to counter the real movement with their class-collaborationist slogan of a popular movement. KKE with its "Communist" Youth for the Restoration of Order (KNAT - which rhymes with MAT, the state Units for the Restoration of Order), history of physical violence against militant elements, with its rabid chauvinism and class-collaborationist ideology aiming to line up the workers behind the national interests, is rather a danger if anything to the workers movement in Greece. The oldest pimp of the Greek workers movement, as it is called over there by militant workers, will continue to be a factor inciting nationalism among the working class, and do pose the danger of doing it more successfully than they have been doing due to the issues with the IMF and the EU.

The only duties the KKE is ready to take on for the movement are the duties of the gravedigger.


Now now, just let the grown-ups handle it, we don't need utopian bullshit spoiling the revolution.

This is hilarious, coming from someone who will, according to his profile, soon be in Ohio University.

You should grow up a bit yourself before talking about grown-ups handling things.


What is needed is unified workers movement of trade unions, the KKE and Syriza the other far left party. The leadership of Syriza and the KKE need to show real practical leadership in organising democratic committees in the workplace with the unions.


Forget the 'vanguard', we need a united front of all the worker's parties and groups (the anarcho-syndicalists as well) to push for the installation of councils and committees in the workplace


Within these of course a Bolshevik line of all power to the workers should be put forward.

This is simply not how things work in real life. History has shown us that committees as well as workers councils are not formed by the trade-unions or political parties under any circumstance. Things like struggle committees arise as a result of massive struggles involving thousands, generally over how the workers will run the struggle, and workers' councils come into being through the workers experiencing the mass strike, and obviously these councils are also built upon the previous experiences of struggle committees and all. Never in history has the trade-unions or political parties set up workers' councils - not in 1905 or 1917 in Russia, not in 1918 in Germany, not in 1919 and 1956 in Hungary, not in 1979 in Iran or 1980 in Poland and so forth. Never. What did happen though, at least in some of these examples, was political parties or trade-unions taking over and destroying the councils.

Now, Grey Blur, had you been living in Greece or something, and came up with something like this, the KKE, SYRIZA, GSEE etc. all coming together and forming workers councils, I would at least say you are delusional. Obviously you aren't, and I think the problem is trying to adapt reality to old theories of the workers' fronts and united fronts etc. Not that these theories, of course, were solid when they were first brought up, but imagining a unity of KKE, SYRIZA, GSEE etc. forming workers councils, and calling for all power to the soviets, is a top example of how the united front formulation got over the years. No, the KKE, SYRIZA, GSEE etc. aren't going to form or push the formation of workers' councils. Nor committees. Nor mass assemblies. Nor will they call for all power to the soviets. Nor were they ever into that sort of thing. No, the mass assemblies, struggle committees and workers councils will all come into being, despite and even against the KKE, the GSEE and so forth. Very clear examples of this also, we have witnessed last December, when all the workers' assemblies that took place did take place when the headquarters or offices of the GSEE were occupied by workers. The trade-unionists of the GSEE of course were busy sending their goons against the workers at the time, rather than pushing for the slogan of all power to the soviets in the mass assemblies. The KKE was busy trying to prevent student assemblies from being formed. The SYRIZA was busy complaining in the parliament.

The most that the KKE, SYRIZA, the GSEE etc. will do will be forming a national popular government. This would mean nothing but the triumph of the forces of reaction in Greece, the defeat of the workers' movement, and the mobilization of the working class for the same national interests the current government has been trying to mobilize it for.

Now, this is not to say that I don't think the intervention of revolutionary minorities of the working class is not important. It's just that it's important that the revolutionaries we are talking about are actually revolutionary, are actually for workers' interests and a part of the proletarian movement, and consequently have working-class power as their aim, not their own power. Where these "politically most advanced" sections of the working class are is very important simply when analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of the movement. Not because workers are incapable of organizing their own mass struggles, but quite the contrary, the politically most advanced sections, ie the vanguard of the working class itself is a product of the proletariat, and of the struggles of the proletariat, and thus shows us how strong the proletariat is.

Both political groups and individual militant workers (with a solid internationalist communist tradition around the revolutionary-defeatist tendency of Stinas and his comrades in the background) as such certainly do exist in Greece and have been developing since last December visibly from what I can understand. There is still a long way though.

In any case, it is important to point out in relation to this that in Greece the problem can only be posed. It can't be solved in Greece alone.

[Antifa94]

Bank fire=Triangle factory fire 2010.

[manic expression]

The KKE is nothing but a nationalist, counter-revolutionary party of the Greek ruling class. Even recently, when the events of the last December were taking place, they had shown their true colors denouncing the movement and the protesters as "pawns of dark foreign powers" (basically identical to what they did in 1973, when the National Technical University was occupied by the students and workers, which led to the overthrow of the Colonels' Junta), physically trying to prevent mass assemblies from gathering and trying to counter the real movement with their class-collaborationist slogan of a popular movement. KKE with its "Communist" Youth for the Restoration of Order (KNAT - which rhymes with MAT, the state Units for the Restoration of Order), history of physical violence against militant elements, with its rabid chauvinism and class-collaborationist ideology aiming to line up the workers behind the national interests, is rather a danger if anything to the workers movement in Greece. The oldest pimp of the Greek workers movement, as it is called over there by militant workers, will continue to be a factor inciting nationalism among the working class, and do pose the danger of doing it more successfully than they have been doing due to the issues with the IMF and the EU.

The only duties the KKE is ready to take on for the movement are the duties of the gravedigger.
Speaking of "duties", our resident slander-artist seems to be arriving just on time. If I'm remembering correctly, the "true colors" you're talking about was when the KKE worked to protect working-class demonstrations and actions from disruption from many anti-worker elements. The tactics of counterrevolutionaries in Greece are well-known, and this includes infiltrating protests or just breaking them up directly. The KKE has succeeded in combating these sabotage attempts then, and we can see them doing the same today. This is vital to the movement. To this, all you can sputter is some nonsense about how "nationalist" they are. Makes sense, since vague name-calling is far easier than coming up with a relevant argument.

Further, it's interesting how you talk about how terrible the KKE is to "militant elements", but you're not so keen on pinpointing exactly who these "elements" are. Probably because those pesky facts keep getting in the way of a good rant.


This is hilarious, coming from someone who will, according to his profile, soon be in Ohio University.

You should grow up a bit yourself before talking about grown-ups handling things.
Unfortunately for you, Leo, political maturity doesn't correspond to years spent alive. In fact, if you've proven anything on this thread, that's it.


In any case, it is important to point out in relation to this that in Greece the problem can only be posed. It can't be solved in Greece alone.
Thus the slogan we see on the Acropolis. Good to know you're keeping up.

[bie]

The KKE is nothing but a nationalist, counter-revolutionary party of the Greek ruling class.

Could you explain me, please, why they are organizing these protests then? In order to defend "ruling class" (what's that by the way?) Looks like you found trace of a conspiracy - I have run through their last congress documents and there were nothing about nationalism or also nothing counter-revolutionary. By the way - are you a Trotskyist? :)

Luckily KKE is successful enough to resist all sort of "leftist" and "pseudo-leftism" attacks from the only genuine workers "militants". This is another evidence on what side you can find some of the ultraleftists.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

Could you guys either refute Leo's accusations about the nationalist character of the KKE, or post some theory as to why, for the first time in history of the workers movements, trade unions and parties will be forming Soviets or just be quiet?

You'd think that the left would at least be able to mantain focus on the substantive issues for the class when discussing important events like this, rather than getting hissy that somebody said their favourite party wasn't very good.

[bie]

These accusations are silly. Let Leo first support his attack with sth more than just pure rhetorics. There is nothing nationalistic in what KKE does.

[manic expression]

Could you guys either refute Leo's accusations about the nationalist character of the KKE, or post some theory as to why, for the first time in history of the workers movements, trade unions and parties will be forming Soviets or just be quiet?
Leo called the KKE a "nationalist, counter-revolutionary party of the Greek ruling class" and then provided no support for this position. He's the one who failed to present anything worth refuting (aside from the predictable rhetoric, of course), so he has not fulfilled his burden of proof.

[bricolage]

Could you explain me, please, why they are organizing these protests then?

Elements of the ruling class are always involved with protests against other elements, for example Mousavi and the 'Green Revolution' against Ahmadinejad. I shun the word organising but I'm unconvinved these protests are solely the work of the KKE. In any case one faction of the ruling class protesting against another does not change their class allegiances any more than one faction standing against another in an election.


This is another evidence on what side you can find some of the ultraleftists.

Yes. The side of the workers.

[manic expression]

Elements of the ruling class are always involved with protests against other elements, for example Mousavi and the 'Green Revolution' against Ahmadinejad. I shun the word organising but I'm unconvinved these protests are solely the work of the KKE. In any case one faction of the ruling class protesting against another does not change their class allegiances any more than one faction standing against another in an election.
So it is your contention that the Greek ruling class not only supports the working-class demonstrations, but is taking an active role in the movement. That position would logically label these demonstrations as, at the very least, class collaborationist. That is quite a stance you have there, I'm not sure Greek workers would take too kindly to it.

[Leo]

Could you explain me, please, why they are organizing these protests then? I assume you are referring to the PAME demonstrations. Such parties do need to give their base the feeling that they are doing something. It is a way of absorbing the good intentions of the workers who actually follow their line.


So it is your contention that the Greek ruling class not only supports the working-class demonstrations, but is taking an active role in the movement. That position would logically label these demonstrations as, at the very least, class collaborationist.

Actually, the PAME demonstrations can't really be considered the part of the same movement with the proletarian struggles going on in Greece. PAME and KKE in general themselves organize separate demonstrations and do not take part in any general demonstrations or anything. Nor have they got anything to do with the workers' clashes with the police which were recently taking place, any of the occupations, the student movement of the last December etc.

This being said, the bourgeois political forces trying to infiltrate, hijack and manipulate workers' struggles is not in any way anything uncommon. In the recent TEKEL strike which went on in Turkey, all political parties, including the fascist Nationalist Movement Party, did their best to do that. The rabidly chauvinist Kemalists of the Republican People's Party even had parliamentary deputies who were heavily teargassed in some demonstrations. This doesn't make those parties any less bourgeois, nor does it make the TEKEL strike class-collaborationist.


In order to defend "ruling class" (what's that by the way?)I'll let you try to figure that one out.


Looks like you found trace of a conspiracy Oh it ain't no conspiracy, it is the daily practice of the KKE. They are referred to as the oldest pimp of the working class struggles in Greece after all.


I have run through their last congress documents and there were nothing about nationalism or also nothing counter-revolutionary. Even the program of the party openly states that it is a patriotic party ("KKE, a profoundly patriotic party, is the genuine and worthy inheritor of the national, democratic and revolutionary traditions of the Greek people."), but then again I am sure you yourself are fond of patriotism yourself and think it's oh so different from nationalism.


By the way - are you a Trotskyist? :)Nope, not at all. The guy who was arguing for the united front is the Trotskyist in this thread, obviously.


If I'm remembering correctly, the "true colors" you're talking about was when the KKE worked to protect working-class demonstrations and actions from disruption from many anti-worker elements. I'm sure you were there, since you are pulling that one off your memory :rolleyes:


The tactics of counterrevolutionaries in Greece are well-knownYes, the tactics of the KKE are well known indeed, and has been exposed before numerous times.


Further, it's interesting how you talk about how terrible the KKE is to "militant elements", but you're not so keen on pinpointing exactly who these "elements" are. Militant workers, militant students etc. I have actually referred to several examples. Then again, ignorance is by necessity a specialty of all Stalinists.


Thus the slogan we see on the Acropolis. Which was something like "Peoples of Europe, Arise". In case you aren't aware, the marxist slogan actually concerns workers, not "peoples", and includes the whole world, not just Europe.

The slogan picked by the KKE on their banner is of course no accident, and does put forward the general class-collaborationist perspective of the party.

[manic expression]

And Leo pulls out the one-liner desperation tactic immediately.


I'm sure you were there, since you are pulling that one off your memory :rolleyes:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8417925.stm

Oops. Back to the drawing board you go, Leo. Maybe this time you'll slander the KKE without anyone noticing.


Yes, the tactics of the KKE are well known indeed, and has been exposed before numerous times.
The tactics of the KKE are very obvious: mobilizing, leading and defending working-class movements against counterrevolutionaries. See above. Read the news. Nice try.


Militant workers, militant students etc. I have referred to several examples. Then again, ignorance is by necessity a specialty of all Stalinists.
:lol:

KKE with its "Communist" Youth for the Restoration of Order (KNAT - which rhymes with MAT, the state Units for the Restoration of Order), history of physical violence against militant elements, with its rabid chauvinism and class-collaborationist ideology aiming to line up the workers behind the national interests, is rather a danger if anything to the workers movement in Greece. The oldest pimp of the Greek workers movement, as it is called over there by militant workers...

Let's see if we can count the number of specific examples in that blurb.

0. You lose. Try again.


Which was something like "Peoples of Europe, Arise". In case you aren't aware, the marxist slogan actually concerns workers, not "peoples", and includes the whole world, not just Europe.
Who forms the vast majority of the peoples of Europe? Workers. Was that so hard?

But your pathetic hair-splitting is only matched by your thick obliviousness to the present situation. Had you been paying attention, you would have noticed that the EU is teetering on the brink of fatal crisis. The struggles in Greece are magnified ten-fold by their role as a threat to the European Union, and thus the global capitalist system. You, of course, remain clueless to this reality, and so you don't understand it when Greek revolutionaries highlight their struggle as being central to the state of Europe.


The slogan picked by the KKE on their banner is of course no accident, and does put forward the general class-collaborationist perspective of the party.
It's no accident that the KKE is appealing for, and tirelessly fighting for, international revolution. It's no accident that the KKE is taking a leading role in these working-class movements. It's also no accident that they're taking control of the Acropolis, while you're sitting on the sidelines, complaining about revolutionaries. But we've been through this song and dance, and it always ends the same way. Have fun trying to polish old lies about the KKE.

[the last donut of the night]

Which was something like "Peoples of Europe, Arise". In case you aren't aware, the marxist slogan actually concerns workers, not "peoples", and includes the whole world, not just Europe.

The slogan picked by the KKE on their banner is of course no accident, and does put forward the general class-collaborationist perspective of the party.

If you didn't seem to be so detached from reality, you'd know that in a lot of places, workers usually don't use the term 'working class'. The phrase 'the people' is not collaborationist, in fact, it's just normal, daily language for the lower of society -- ie. the workers. Now, while it is true that this phrase has been misused sometimes to carry a class-collaborationist program, that usually isn't the case.

And the banner isn't excluding the whole world -- it's just focusing on Europe. The same way American comrades may call for the uprising of the American working-class while still keeping an internationalist viewpoint (in fact, lots of international revolutions would make revolution here much more probable).

Do we always have to live up to your minute and hair-splitting terminology? Must we mention the words 'working-class', 'internationalism', and 'revolution' in every single slogan?

I understand your worries, but there's a point when criticizing the banners for that is just ridiculous.

[Bilan]

Yet Humanity..., you seem to be confident that they're using "peoples" as opposed to "workers", but that confidence seems to be quite presumptuous. I mean, you could be write, but ...evidence?

[which doctor]

I find it hilarious that people on this board are calling Leo 'detached from reality,' when in fact, as someone familiar with Turkish (and probably to a lesser extent Greek) working-class politics, he is much closer to the situation than a bunch of armchair leftists in the US pecking away at their keyboards, whose knowledge of the situation and the different parties doesn't go much beyond what they've gathered from wikipedia and BBC articles. I'm sorry, but when people who barely know anything about the KKE say things like 'the KKE is ready to take on the duties of the vanguard' I can't help but roll my eyes

[S.Artesian]

But your pathetic hair-splitting is only matched by your thick obliviousness to the present situation. Had you been paying attention, you would have noticed that the EU is teetering on the brink of fatal crisis. The struggles in Greece are magnified ten-fold by their role as a threat to the European Union, and thus the global capitalist system. You, of course, remain clueless to this reality, and so you don't understand it when Greek revolutionaries highlight their struggle as being central to the state of Europe.


It's no accident that the KKE is appealing for, and tirelessly fighting for, international revolution. It's no accident that the KKE is taking a leading role in these working-class movements. It's also no accident that they're taking control of the Acropolis, while you're sitting on the sidelines, complaining about revolutionaries. But we've been through this song and dance, and it always ends the same way. Have fun trying to polish old lies about the KKE.


I agree. The EU, not the people of Europe and the other continents, is on the edge of a fatal crisis. For the workers of Europe and those other continents, it is a moment of revolutionary opportunity-- which does not mean that oh it's October 1917 all over again, or the July days all over again, or even February 1917 all over again.

But the cause of the crisis is the conflict between the means and relations of production which clearly, Marx says, inaugurates the era of social revolution.

I know very little about the KKE. If it is occupying a leadership role in this struggle, if it ready to "assume the role of the vanguard," I'd like to know what it's programmatic demands are regarding the debt, the EU, the euro, Greece's membership in the EU etc.

I'd like to know what it proposes as the next steps in this struggle, and if the KKE thinks the struggle is in fact of such depth, and criticality, that it is a revolutionary struggle and not a struggle that can be contained within the currently existing institutions of political rule.

Thanks for any info.

[Nolan]

I find it hilarious that people on this board are calling Leo 'detached from reality,' when in fact, as someone familiar with Turkish (and probably to a lesser extent Greek) working-class politics, he is much closer to the situation than a bunch of armchair leftists in the US pecking away at their keyboards, whose knowledge of the situation and the different parties doesn't go much beyond what they've gathered from wikipedia and BBC articles. I'm sorry, but when people who barely know anything about the KKE say things like 'the KKE is ready to take on the duties of the vanguard' I can't help but roll my eyes

Lol they can get their asses handed to them but they keep coming with the same stuff.

[the last donut of the night]

Yet Humanity..., you seem to be confident that they're using "peoples" as opposed to "workers", but that confidence seems to be quite presumptuous. I mean, you could be write, but ...evidence?

Well, by that logic, shouldn't Leo back up his claims against the KKE with proof -- something he hasn't done?

[What Would Durruti Do?]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying -- the vanguard IS a broad revolutionary workers' mobilization.

No it isn't, it's just another fucking party like the one that already rules Greece. In case you haven't realized the Greeks hate government PERIOD, not just those currently in power.

If the Greeks are smart, they won't let the Reds take control under the guise of "vangaurdism" or we'll have another Venezuela with people claiming to be socialists yet doing absolutely nothing to destroy capitalism.

It's a good thing the KKE is largely irrelevant.

[the last donut of the night]

I find it hilarious that people on this board are calling Leo 'detached from reality,' when in fact, as someone familiar with Turkish (and probably to a lesser extent Greek) working-class politics, he is much closer to the situation than a bunch of armchair leftists in the US pecking away at their keyboards, whose knowledge of the situation and the different parties doesn't go much beyond what they've gathered from wikipedia and BBC articles. I'm sorry, but when people who barely know anything about the KKE say things like 'the KKE is ready to take on the duties of the vanguard' I can't help but roll my eyes

By this flawed logic, you shouldn't even have the idea of criticizing the Nepali Maoists, since I believe you don't live in Nepal or have studied Nepali politics so thoroughly that you can assert yourself to be a true specialist on the matter. In fact, by your logic, you shouldn't criticize any of the 'state-capitalist' regimes your tendency loves to peck away at.

[Nolan]

No it isn't, it's just another fucking party like the one that already rules Greece. In case you haven't realized the Greeks hate government PERIOD, not just those currently in power.

You're a fucking idiot to compare the KKE to the government and then make such a sweeping generalization about Greeks.


If the Greeks are smart,

If they're smart they'll expel the utopians from the country before they get a chance to interfere with the vanguard or the worker's state.



they won't let the Reds take control under the guise of "vangaurdism" or we'll have another Venezuela with people claiming to be socialists yet doing absolutely nothing to destroy capitalism.

Don't confuse Chavez's reformism (?) with vanguardism. And Venezuela is making strides to dismantle capitalism independently of Chavez.



It's a good thing the KKE is largely irrelevant.

Yes, it is in your fairy-land. The real world, though, tends to be inconvenient for the likes of you.

[The Grey Blur]

Well it's safe neither the left-communists nor the 'marxist-leninists' will make this revolution. On the one hand let's abandon the unions, KKE, Syriza, all the organised workers' groups and hope for some magical revolution occuring outside these bodies or on the other let's fully endorse a Stalinist reformist class-collaborationist party. Throw in some mad ranting about the 'vanguard', ultra-left attacks on the revolution in Venezuela, extreme sectarianism of the football-team variety, and the quality of discourse on revleft is summed up.

Leo I accept your greater knowledge of the specifics of the situation, but we have a different understanding of the potential of the unions and the mass parties. Considering we almost already have a situation of dual power, with the bourgeois government having lost any mandate it had & opposed by a mass movement of working people, I don't think it's delusional to be calling for the setting up of workplace committees/councils, and to make the argument that these represent the masses' will. There has to be a fight against the bureaucracy and class-collaborationists within the reformist parties and unions which will not accept this rather than abandon them. I agree that the struggle must go beyond Greece, that is self-evident for any internationalist marxist/socialist.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

You're a fucking idiot to compare the KKE to the government and then make such a sweeping generalization about Greeks.

Yeah, the KKE is the only political party in the world to actually care about the people and not their own pocketbook. Give me a break. :rolleyes:


If they're smart they'll expel the utopians from the country before they get a chance to interfere with the vanguard or the worker's state.Or perhaps you would prefer gulags? The reds have always seemed to have an affinity for such.


Don't confuse Chavez's reformism (?) with vanguardism. And Venezuela is making strides to dismantle capitalism independently of Chavez. Chavez has a political party that rules Venezuela and "directs" the working class towards socialism. How is that not vanguardism?


Yes, it is in your fairy-land. The real world, though, tends to be inconvenient for the likes of you.Maybe you should try learning something about the situation in Greece before commenting on it. Nobody in Europe cares about your authoritarian ideology. It had its chance last century. Time for something new.


Well it's safe neither the left-communists nor the 'marxist-leninists' will make this revolution. On the one hand let's abandon the unions, KKE, Syriza, all the organised workers' groups and hope for some magical revolution occuring outside these bodies or on the other let's fully endorse a Stalinist reformist class-collaborationist party. Throw in some mad ranting about the 'vanguard', ultra-left attacks on the revolution in Venezuela, extreme sectarianism of the football-team variety, and the quality of discourse on revleft is summed up.

Leo I accept your greater knowledge of the specifics of the situation, but we have a different understanding of the potential of the unions and the mass parties. Considering we almost already have a situation of dual power, with the bourgeois government having lost any mandate it had & opposed by a mass movement of working people, I don't think it's delusional to be calling for the setting up of workplace committees/councils, and to make the argument that these represent the masses' will. There has to be a fight against the bureaucracy and class-collaborationists within the reformist parties and unions which will not accept this rather than abandon them. I agree that the struggle must go beyond Greece, that is self-evident for any internationalist marxist/socialist.

Seriously, you guys need to find some better insults than "ultra left". All it does is make you look like another out of touch Marxist windbag.

[Saorsa]

I think that however the revolution in Greece develops, as long as the driving force is the working class and the poor and oppressed more generally fighting for radical and fundamental change, it's something we can get behind. I would argue for the development of a Marxist-Leninist party to give some organised leadership to the movement, but if the movement develops succesfully without that I'm still going to support it and try to learn from it.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

I think that however the revolution in Greece develops, as long as the driving force is the working class and the poor and oppressed more generally fighting for radical and fundamental change, it's something we can get behind. I would argue for the development of a Marxist-Leninist party to give some organised leadership to the movement, but if the movement develops succesfully without that I'm still going to support it and try to learn from it.

This is an opinion I can support. Instead of forcing a vanguard on us, why not wait and see how things go without one?

This is the most exciting revolutionary atmosphere since the Spanish Civil War, IMO. The Marxists have Nepal, India, Venezuela, Cuba, lets give something new a chance.

[S.Artesian]

I think that however the revolution in Greece develops, as long as the driving force is the working class and the poor and oppressed more generally fighting for radical and fundamental change, it's something we can get behind. I would argue for the development of a Marxist-Leninist party to give some organised leadership to the movement, but if the movement develops succesfully without that I'm still going to support it and try to learn from it.

Certainly. And as the struggle continues we will see 2 critical things, actually relations, emerge that will tell us a lot:

1. embryonic organs of dual power. Somewhere, somehow the strike committees will start taking responsibility for more things than organizing the demonstrations, or organizing and policing the demonstrations. The strike committees need to make the strikes solid and persistent enough so that they, the workers strike committees actually begin running the cities-- the transport systems, making sure the cities are adequately provisioned

2. a program-- something that begins with "cancel the debt" and ends with "all power to the strike committees." Obviously it's what is in between those two poles, those critical transitions that will determine the success of the struggle.

[Nolan]

Maybe you should try learning something about the situation in Greece before commenting on it. Nobody in Europe cares about your authoritarian ideology. It had its chance last century. Time for something new.

Authoritarian? Yes, we eat babies I forgot. And no one really cares about getting rid of the state. We have as good a show as you. Anyways few in Europe care about the rev left anymore. Too bad you're irrelevant everywhere else on the planet... and, well, we're not.


Chavez has a political party that rules Venezuela and "directs" the working class towards socialism. How is that not vanguardism?

I don't even need to respond to this.


Seriously, you guys need to find some better insults than "ultra left".

Indeed, I prefer utopian.

[S.Artesian]

Let's work to make sure it turns out better than the Spanish Civil War.

I wouldn't be surpised to see Papandreou reshuffle is cabinet and try to coopt the official CP with portfolio or two. Might want to get those "no popular front" signs ready.

[Nolan]

I think that however the revolution in Greece develops, as long as the driving force is the working class and the poor and oppressed more generally fighting for radical and fundamental change, it's something we can get behind. I would argue for the development of a Marxist-Leninist party to give some organised leadership to the movement, but if the movement develops succesfully without that I'm still going to support it and try to learn from it.

Indeed, even without any vanguard it would be worth our support. Doesn't mean it'll succeed, but it's our duty as leftists to support revolutionary working class actions.

Personally I'd like to see how a vanguardless worker revolution would handle all the things that plagued the USSR and continue to plague Cuba, like foreign military threat, capitalist-astroturfed internal reaction, embargoes, and other issues.

[Saorsa]

The Marxists have Nepal, India, Venezuela, Cuba, lets give something new a chance.

Am I the only one that finds this sentence hilariously funny? :lol:

We'll give you poor wee guys a chance. *pats the subcommandante on the head*


Certainly. And as the struggle continues we will see 2 critical things, actually relations, emerge that will tell us a lot:

1. embryonic organs of dual power. Somewhere, somehow the strike committees will start taking responsibility for more things than organizing the demonstrations, or organizing and policing the demonstrations. The strike committees need to make the strikes solid and persistent enough so that they, the workers strike committees actually begin running the cities-- the transport systems, making sure the cities are adequately provisioned

Indeed. A similar thing is happening in Kathmandu at the moment, where the Maoist bandh has shut down most of the economy and the movement is having to organise the basics of life for itself and the recent of the city's inhabitants. It would seem it takes a paralllel state structure to pull off a protracted general strike in the first place. It'll be fascinating to watch how things are organised if it goes down that path in Greece!


2. a program-- something that begins with "cancel the debt" and ends with "all power to the strike committees." Obviously it's what is in between those two poles, those critical transitions that will determine the success of the struggle.

Well this is my concern, the assumption that the demand for all power to the strike committees will organically and spontaneously emerge out of the strike committees themselves. Unless the movement is led by forces that have been organised from the start around the goal of seizing state power, how do you expect the strike committees to present a united, disciplined front against the power of the state? You can't just have individually autonomous strike committees free to drop out if things get tough.

[Wanted Man]

This is an opinion I can support. Instead of forcing a vanguard on us, why not wait and see how things go without one?

This is the most exciting revolutionary atmosphere since the Spanish Civil War, IMO. The Marxists have Nepal, India, Venezuela, Cuba, lets give something new a chance.

This is incredibly dumb. As if it matters who "has" what. I don't "have" Cuba and you don't "have" Greece. Some people don't really care about how it ends up, they just want something to root for and claim as their own, as if we're talking about football teams.

The main consequence of this is plain old delusion. People on Revleft, especially from the UK and the US, don't understand the matters that they are making grand proclamations about. Whenever there is a riot or a general strike in a continental European country, they call it a "revolution". It's a distinct lack of perspective. The situation in Greece does have a good chance of becoming a revolutionary one, though. That is why it is all the more important to be realistic about what is going on.

Then there's the "us and them" black and white bullshit. This is basically about one thing only, the Communist Party, and again people don't have perspective. I've heard people call them "irrelevant", which is quite an achievement for a party with half a million supporters... Are they right about everything? No. Are they in charge of the whole "revolution", leading it in a direct line towards socialism? No, but have you ever heard of a monolithic, linear revolution? Do they play an important role in the ongoing struggle? Yes. Are there half a million workers of the communist union front PAME currently on strike? Hell yes. How is that for irrelevance?

Lastly, I wonder how you'd want to define "something new". Anarchism is not new. Again, it's a dumb black-and-white distinction between "old" and "new", as if ideologies are unchanging.

[Leo]

Well it's safe neither the left-communists nor the 'marxist-leninists' will make this revolution. Certainly, since actual revolutions are made by classes, not political tendencies.


On the one hand let's abandon the unions, KKE, Syriza, all the organised workers' groups Are the KKE, SYRIZA, the unions etc. organized workers' groups?


and hope for some magical revolution occuring outside these bodies Funnily enough, all revolutions that happened in the past occurred "magically", if occurring outside trade-unions and bourgeois parties is something "magical".


Considering we almost already have a situation of dual powerWe obviously aren't anywhere near having a situation of dual power, as evidenced by the fact that workers organs of self-organization (the workers councils) aren't in place yet, and the working class in Greece hasn't even experienced the mass strike yet. You can't say we have a situation of dual power when there aren't workers' councils in existence. It is understandable that people get excited over the events in Greece, but I think it is important to look at things calmly.


with the bourgeois government having lost any mandate it had Then again, the government and the state are two different things. The current social-democratic government has indeed lost its credibility in the eyes of working people, it seems. Yet there are others who are willing to take part in a different government of the same state, and the state mechanism itself has a few tricks left in its sleeve anyway, as we have seen in the example of the bank fire provocation. Again, we should analyze calmly. Greece is not on the verge of the revolution, as much as what people here would like to think about it. We could, on the other hand, say it is perhaps at the beginning of a long process which might lead to it.


I don't think it's delusional to be calling for the setting up of workplace committees/councils, and to make the argument that these represent the masses' willNo, certainly not, although at this point I would focus more on calling for mass assemblies rather than committees, and would not actually call for councils yet (they do not suddenly fall from the sky obviously). What I said would be delusional is calling for the KKE, SYRIZA, GSEE etc. to organize or push the formation of such things.


Well, by that logic, shouldn't Leo back up his claims against the KKE with proof -- something he hasn't done? I think I've shown a fair bit of proof both in regards to giving well known examples of KKE's actions as well as KKE's nationalism. I can give more examples, such as the KKE's anti-FYROM chauvinism (but do our Stalin-kiddies know what FYROM is?), attempts to channelize the anger of last December into its own electoral campaign and so forth. Most of what I am pointing out is common knowledge which people who have been following the events in Greece since last December generally tend to know, with a few other historical examples. Excuse me if I get tired of every practical example I point out being ignored, while people are asking me to "prove" things.

[Wanted Man]

I should add that Leo's claims about the KKE are at least a bit more elaborate and based on experience. I don't agree with most of them, but they do basically outline the case against the KKE from the left. It's difficult to engage with most of them, because most of us can't confirm or deny that "militant workers say [x] about them" (other militant workers may be members of them, incidentally) and stuff like that. But at least some thought was put into it.

Most people on Revleft probably don't know what FYROM is. Should I tell them, or will you?

[Saorsa]

It's macedonia!

[Devrim]

Now now, just let the grown-ups handle it, we don't need utopian bullshit spoiling the revolution.

There isn't a revolution in Greece at the moment.


I agree. The EU, not the people of Europe and the other continents, is on the edge of a fatal crisis. For the workers of Europe and those other continents, it is a moment of revolutionary opportunity--

No, it isn't. It is a small process in the development of workers struggles on an international level.


This is the most exciting revolutionary atmosphere since the Spanish Civil War, IMO.

What about Berlin 1953, Hungry 1956, Poland 1970, 1976, 1980-1 Iran 1979, Paris 1968 to mention just a few obvious points? In some of these there were actual workers' councils, and let's remember pn Greece today there aren't yet.


The main consequence of this is plain old delusion. People on Revleft, especially from the UK and the US, don't understand the matters that they are making grand proclamations about. Whenever there is a riot or a general strike in a continental European country, they call it a "revolution". It's a distinct lack of perspective.

After three pages and 49 posts, there is at last a voice of sanity.

This is not a revolution.It is an intense period of class struggle. There is a difference. I think that a lot of people on here are quite young and can't remember what periods of intense class struggle look like. If we talk about one that I personally remember, the winter of 79 in the UK, I don't think the events in Greece have approached anywhere near that level. That is not to say that they can't, or won't, but haven't yet.

If he weren't so weighed down with formaldehyde I am sure that Lenin's body would be spinning in its casket now. One of Lenin's criticisms of anarchism (and although I don't think it is justified of all anarchism is more that justified of many of Lenin's followers on here) was the way that it expressed petit-bourgeois vacillation, and rapidly went from the extremes of 'revolutionism' to 'desperation' or even worse, 'reformism'. This is exactly what we see on Revleft, one minute the fascists are coiming in the US, the next we should vote Labour in the UK elections, and now there is a revolution in Greece.

There is a need for calm, clear analysis, and understanding of what is going on, and as 'Wanted Man' says a sense of perspective.

'Wanted Man' is not somebody I often agree with politically on here, though he does give me the feeling that we live on the same planet.

Devrim

[manic expression]

I think I've shown a fair bit of proof both in regards to giving well known examples of KKE's actions as well as KKE's nationalism. I can give more examples, such as the KKE's anti-FYROM chauvinism (but do our Stalin-kiddies know what FYROM is?), attempts to channelize the anger of last December into its own electoral campaign and so forth. Most of what I am pointing out is common knowledge which people who have been following the events in Greece since last December generally tend to know, with a few other historical examples. Excuse me if I get tired of every practical example I point out being ignored, while people are asking me to "prove" things.
You can think that all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you haven't done anything of the sort. All you've provided is subjective, unverified, unsupported opinions, your argument rests on nothing but that axe you're grinding. On December, I showed that the KKE was heavily involved, perhaps centrally involved, in the demonstrations and the struggle in Greece. On your "militant workers", I asked you to give us the slightest idea of whom this would entail; I've gotten no response.

First you tried dressing up your warped impressions as fact. Then you tried insulting a poster's age. Then you tried to say that people who disagree with you are bad at geography. Anything else you got for us? There's nothing more entertaining than a hack who's running out of ideas, so please, go on.

[CChocobo]

Well if anyone knows anything of the KKE and how they tried to undermine the movements of december 2008. I'll quote the book im currently reading called "We Are An Image From the Future".

Several quotes as follows:

"In Corfu several hundred people protest. After the demonstrators clash with police, a dozen youth from KKE (the Communist Party) and PASOK lock the university and refuse to let the protesters in, leaving them at the mercy of the riot police"

Another quote.

"In several cities, youth with the KKE try to protect the police or prevent the occupation of universities."

also many of them would try to de-mask and beat protesters.
They sure don't sound like anything good, not to mention they're very stalinist.

http://www.marxist.com/greek-december-short-balance-sheet.htm

[the last donut of the night]

This is an opinion I can support. Instead of forcing a vanguard on us, why not wait and see how things go without one?

This is the most exciting revolutionary atmosphere since the Spanish Civil War, IMO. The Marxists have Nepal, India, Venezuela, Cuba, lets give something new a chance.

I'm not forcing anything on anyone, and the thought of a vanguard being forced upon the workers is just preposterous. It's the workers who form the vanguard -- the myth that the Leninist idea of the vanguard is an intelligentsia carrying out a coup is not only anti-communistic, it's also plainly wrong. Now I'll support any workers' mobilization without a party or not; I'm just worried that these protests will fizzle out if not organized properly. The workers must organize themselves into a vanguard party.

[Devrim]

If you didn't seem to be so detached from reality, you'd know that in a lot of places, workers usually don't use the term 'working class'. The phrase 'the people' is not collaborationist, in fact, it's just normal, daily language for the lower of society -- ie. the workers. Now, while it is true that this phrase has been misused sometimes to carry a class-collaborationist program, that usually isn't the case.


I replied to this on another thread as it seemed a bit off topic:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/workers-vs-people-t134762/index.html

Devrim

[Devrim]

You can think that all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you haven't done anything of the sort. All you've provided is subjective, unverified, unsupported opinions, your argument rests on nothing but that axe you're grinding.

Let's see, for example on the nationalist question. Leo claimed they were nationalist:


The KKE is nothing but a nationalist, counter-revolutionary party of the Greek ruling class.

MC then claimed that they weren't:


To this, all you can sputter is some nonsense about how "nationalist" they are.

Leo then quoted from their programme:


KKE, a profoundly patriotic party, is the genuine and worthy inheritor of the national, democratic and revolutionary traditions of the Greek people.

I wouldn't say that that is a 'subjective, unverified, unsupported opinion', but rather a statement of their position straight from the horses mouth.

Or do you think that there is some sort of deep difference between 'nationalism' and 'patriotism'.

As well as that their have been various other mentions of how this is reflected in their politics particular concerning FYROM.

What is more to the point though is the insistence upon rabid support for the KKE. What surprises me about it is that you don't seem to admit to the possibility that many workers in Europe, having experienced years of 'sell outs' from the CPs, see these sort of organisations as just the same as the other political parties. I think in Western Europe in the countries where workers have experience of these sort of parties it is really obviously true.

Even the KKE supporters in Greece know that there are many workers, who consider themselves to be socialists, and have no trust in these sort of organisations. The fact that they back their party to the hilt shows a sense of loyalty that as a personal characteristic is admirable. They are, however, well aware that these organisations have many critics from the left.

I think that the KKE's role will be come more clear as events progress. Already today one of their MPs was saying that some anarchists were actually far right provocotors. I think that we have all heard that one before.

Devrim

[manic expression]

Let's see, for example on the nationalist question. Leo claimed they were nationalist:

Leo then quoted from their programme:

I wouldn't say that that is a 'subjective, unverified, unsupported opinion', but rather a statement of their position straight from the horses mouth.

Or do you think that there is some sort of deep difference between 'nationalism' and 'patriotism'.
Yes, there is; considering oneself a patriot is fully in line with the march of the workers, while being nationalistic is quite different. Being a patriot means supporting the progress of one's nation, whereas being nationalist means asserting the supremacy of one's nation. One is progressive, revolutionary and part of Marxism, while the other is not.


As well as that their have been various other mentions of how this is reflected in their politics particular concerning FYROM.Leo simply said that his ideological opponents don't know the official name of Macedonia. Hardly something concrete. Geography quizzes aren't political arguments, that's really the issue here.


What is more to the point though is the insistence upon rabid support for the KKE. What surprises me about it is that you don't seem to admit to the possibility that many workers in Europe, having experienced years of 'sell outs' from the CPs, see these sort of organisations as just the same as the other political parties. I think in Western Europe in the countries where workers have experience of these sort of parties it is really obviously true.Many workers in Europe join me in support for the KKE and the struggle of the Greek workers. Or are you insinuating that the half-million KKE members in Greek unions are "sell outs"?

[Devrim]

Yes, there is; considering oneself a patriot is fully in line with the march of the workers, while being nationalistic is quite different. Being a patriot means supporting the progress of one's nation, whereas being nationalist means asserting the supremacy of one's nation. One is progressive, revolutionary and part of Marxism, while the other is not.

Well yes. I think I will leave it to others to judge what sort of 'communist' you are.


Many workers in Europe join me in support for the KKE and the struggle of the Greek workers.

Yes, they do. Many workers also support the all sorts of parties. My point was that it isn't a completely crazy ultra-left opinion, but is one held by many workers.


Or are you insinuating that the half-million KKE members in Greek unions are "sell outs"?

If you go back and read what I said, I think it is quite obvious that I was referring to actions of the party, not individuals.

Devrim

[Zanthorus]

Being a patriot means supporting the progress of one's nation,

Why would a communist want to support the progress only of his fellow workers who fall within the national boundaries emposed on them by the ruling classes to keep them divided?

[Nolan]

Why would a communist want to support the progress only of his fellow workers who fall within the national boundaries emposed on them by the ruling classes to keep them divided?

You can be a patriot and an internationalist. It doesn't necessarily have nothing to do with what you said. Patriotism can mean anything from national-liberation to nationalism.

[Saorsa]

Patriotism/nationalism can be progressive in certain circumstances, i.e. when we're talking about a nation that is oppressed and where the patriotism/nationalism concerned is expressed as part of a struggle for socialist revolution. Look at the Chinese communists, the Black Panthers, the UCPN (M) etc

I don't know if being patriotic is that easy to justify in a country like Greece. Take pride in the rich history of struggle and rebellion that can be found in your country's past, sure... but to be patriotic about your country itself just tends to mean tail ending your home grown bourgeoisie.

I think FSL should explain what the KKE line on patriotism and the Greek nation is.

[manic expression]

Well yes. I think I will leave it to others to judge what sort of 'communist' you are.
Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to be the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself the nation, it is, so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.


Yes, they do. Many workers also support the all sorts of parties. My point was that it isn't a completely crazy ultra-left opinion, but is one held by many workers.
Well, we're back to square one. Yes, "many workers" don't support the KKE. "Many workers" are not communists, so it's not exactly an earth-shattering statement, and it gets you nowhere.


If you go back and read what I said, I think it is quite obvious that I was referring to actions of the party, not individuals.
And who makes up the party?

[Zanthorus]

You can be a patriot and an internationalist.

Well going by ME's definition then sure but then the term becomes almost meaningless because supporting the progress of your own nation is a part and parcel of supporting progress worldwide.

I'd like to hear what the KKE's take on "patriotism" is before jumping to any further conlusions however I do not see how this -


KKE, a profoundly patriotic party, is the genuine and worthy inheritor of the national, democratic and revolutionary traditions of the Greek people.

Is really all that compatible with socialism. The "democratic" tradition of the Greek people being of course the tradition of Athenian style slave-owning "democracy" serving the interests of the ruling class.


Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to be the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself the nation, it is, so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.

EDIT: Scratch that, I just re-read that passage. Well done for taking it totally out of context genius:


The working men have no country. We cannot take from them what they have not got. Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must constitute itself the nation, it is, so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word. National differences and antagonisms between peoples are vanishing gradually from day to day, owing to the development of the bourgeoisie, to freedom of commerce, to the world market, to uniformity in the mode of production and in the conditions of life corresponding thereto. The supremacy of the proletariat will cause them to vanish still faster. United action, of the leading civilised countries at least, is one of the first conditions for the emancipation of the proletariat.

The point is supposed to be that workers have to take power in each country individually first since it's easier than simultaneous world revolution. Doesn't have much to do with "patriotism" like you seem to want to make it appear.

[Proletarian Ultra]

Patriotism/nationalism can be progressive in certain circumstances, i.e. when we're talking about a nation that is oppressed and where the patriotism/nationalism concerned is expressed as part of a struggle for socialist revolution. Look at the Chinese communists, the Black Panthers, the UCPN (M) etc

I don't know if being patriotic is that easy to justify in a country like Greece. Take pride in the rich history of struggle and rebellion that can be found in your country's past, sure... but to be patriotic about your country itself just tends to mean tail ending your home grown bourgeoisie.

Greece is by far the most nationalistic country I've ever been to, except America. (Though I've never been to Turkey or the Slavic countries). It's like an oppressive cloud over everything. It penetrates every corner of political life except for the anarchists and maybe a few Trots or Maoists.

There are possibly some progressive aspects to Greek nationalism...I don't doubt helped with resistance during/after WWII...

But goddamn, it can be reactionary.

Since the Western powers started encouraging the people of the peninsula to think of themselves as Hellenes ('Greeks') and not Romaioi ('Byzantines') during the war of independence (which succeeded in placing the peninsula under a Germanic monarch rather than a Turkish one) there's been a neurotic, unhealthy fixation on the classical and independence-era past - all kitschy bricolage of Ionic columns, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, fustanellas and bouzoukis.

This oppressive nostalgia has been a grave obstacle to progressive cultural development. It makes it difficult to forge new cultural formations that can properly engage with present-day reality. It's also had directly material deleterious effects: e.g. moving the capital from Nafplio, at the heart of Greek life in the Peloponnesus, to the backward village that stood on ancient Athens, which became a sort of Disneyworld of reactionary nostalgia for the monarchy, not to mention a giant teat for international capital to suck on.

The promotion of a monolithic Hellenic and Orthodox identity also marginalizes immigrant and national minority groups; this is true in almost any nation-state, granted, but in Greece it's especially palpable.

There's also the centrality of the Orthodox Church, which is just so depressing it's almost not worth mentioning.

[MilitantWorker]

I'm just going to be frank:

Fire bombing a place full of workers and killing a pregnant women is not the way to build revolutionary consciousness amongst the working class.

This thread is full of apologetic replies to the events and there is no excuse for these actions. On the other hand it is true that the bank's manager wasn't concerned with the safety and well being of his staff-- he made them come to work during rioting.

We need to support everyday plain working people, push for mass class action, and emphasis spreading the struggle to other places in the world...

Not just run around fucking shit up randomly. Silly Blanquists! Riots are for kids.

All it takes is a rubber bullet to the head to figure that out...

[manic expression]

Well going by ME's definition then sure but then the term becomes almost meaningless because supporting the progress of your own nation is a part and parcel of supporting progress worldwide.
That's the whole point. The only valid patriotism is an internationalist patriotism.


EDIT: Scratch that, I just re-read that passage. Well done for taking it totally out of context genius:

The point is supposed to be that workers have to take power in each country individually first since it's easier than simultaneous world revolution. Doesn't have much to do with "patriotism" like you seem to want to make it appear.
It is pertinent because of a few things. First, Marx recognized the workers as pushing forward the nation itself along the path of history. That's what progressive patriotism is all about. Second, Marx was saying that becoming the nation was an immediate goal of the revolutionary proletariat. This is a far cry from the position that denies any importance to the national character of class struggle. "Patriotism" is essentially just another word for this idea (a word manipulated by reactionaries, surely, but that doesn't mean we should abandon it).

[Zanthorus]

That's the whole point. The only valid patriotism is an internationalist patriotism.


It is pertinent because of a few things. First, Marx recognized the workers as pushing forward the nation itself along the path of history. That's what progressive patriotism is all about. Second, Marx was saying that becoming the nation was an immediate goal of the revolutionary proletariat. This is a far cry from the position that denies any importance to the national character of class struggle. "Patriotism" is essentially just another word for this idea (a word manipulated by reactionaries, surely, but that doesn't mean we should abandon it).

All of which tells us nothing about the way the KKE is using the term "patriotism".

[Devrim]

Greece is by far the most nationalistic country I've ever been to, except America. (Though I've never been to Turkey or the Slavic countries).

I know what you mean. Greece is a terribly nationalistic country, but Turkey is even worse.

If you take a ferry between the Eastern Aegean islands, you can tell which small rock in the middle of the sea belongs to which country, as the owning state has painted as big a national flag as it can on it facing the other way.

Devrim

[revolution inaction]

Patriotism can mean anything from national-liberation to nationalism.

so from one kind of reactionary shit to another?

[FSL]

so from one kind of reactionary shit to another?



All of which tells us nothing about the way the KKE is using the term "patriotism".


Guess.




One of many articles about immigrant laborers in Manolada fields
http://www1.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=5157903&textCriteriaClause=%2B%CE%9C%CE%91%CE%9D%CE%A9%CE% 9B%CE%91%CE%94%CE%91

A demonstration by Egyptian workers in the fishing industry, their strike for basic rights lasted over a month. The banner reads "Greek and foreign workers united"
http://www1.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=5445110&textCriteriaClause=%2B%CE%9C%CE%97%CE%A7%CE%91%CE% 9D%CE%99%CE%A9%CE%9D%CE%91

Article written 10 days ago on the living conditions of immigrant workers in Filiatra, demonstrations of solidarity followed
http://www1.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=5614563&textCriteriaClause=%2B%CE%A6%CE%99%CE%9B%CE%99%CE% 91%CE%A4%CE%A1%CE%91

Foreign workers in a PAME demonstration calling for the legalization of all immigrants.
http://www1.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=4788549&textCriteriaClause=%2B%CE%9C%CE%95%CE%A4%CE%91%CE% 9D%CE%91%CE%A3%CE%A4%CE%95%CE%A3+%2B%CE%A0%CE%91%C E%9C%CE%95+%2B%CE%A0%CE%9F%CE%A1%CE%95%CE%99%CE%91


Also, the "International Meeting of Communist & Workers' Parties" took off in 1998 on a KKE initiative. And yes, not all the parties there -probably not even most of them- have a revolutionary perspective but this is the unfortunate result of an awful period for the communist movement.
Even so it did help to bring closer some of the "decent" CPs remaining in Europe and build something that resembles like a common front despite many being quite weak.

And it's certainly more than anything most people here have done to bring forth a world-encompassing communist takeover, right?


In any case many of the slurs weren't really worthy of an answer.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Indeed, I prefer utopian.

you realize we're both communists right? So way to insult yourself. :thumbup1:

[Nolan]

so from one kind of reactionary shit to another?

Most of the time, yes.

[Nolan]

you realize we're both communists right? So way to insult yourself. :thumbup1:

Well let's act like it then. ;)

[black magick hustla]

I imagine there is some sort of sense, even if I disagree with it, with third world patriotism. To Lenin and Co. it was seen as something practical, something that can challenge imperialism. I don't think the patriotism of a member of the European Union is that though.

[CChocobo]

The only thing i'd be afraid of is that Greece is very nationalistic. Also the right wing fascists Golden Dawn tend to collaborate with the police regularly. They also have their own members patrol "their neighborhoods" and what not.. So nationalism, fascism is very much alive in Greece, although i'm not quite sure how big their numbers are. Any ideas? (anyone who's more familiar with Greece or lives there?)

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

If you didn't seem to be so detached from reality, you'd know that in a lot of places, workers usually don't use the term 'working class'. The phrase 'the people' is not collaborationist, in fact, it's just normal, daily language for the lower of society -- ie. the workers. Now, while it is true that this phrase has been misused sometimes to carry a class-collaborationist program, that usually isn't the case.

And the banner isn't excluding the whole world -- it's just focusing on Europe. The same way American comrades may call for the uprising of the American working-class while still keeping an internationalist viewpoint (in fact, lots of international revolutions would make revolution here much more probable).

Do we always have to live up to your minute and hair-splitting terminology? Must we mention the words 'working-class', 'internationalism', and 'revolution' in every single slogan?

I understand your worries, but there's a point when criticizing the banners for that is just ridiculous.

I don't want to be harsh here man, but

Leo = Working class man with decades of experience of the class struggle, including being imprisoned and tortured by Syrian state police.

You = most likely some 20 year old student in America who alternates his time between watching porn, advocating world revolution on a message board and doing some modest work for a generic socialist party.

Oh btw apologies if I got Leo confused with Devirm

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

Patriotism/nationalism can be progressive in certain circumstances, i.e. when we're talking about a nation that is oppressed and where the patriotism/nationalism concerned is expressed as part of a struggle for socialist revolution. Look at the Chinese communists, the Black Panthers, the UCPN (M) etc

I don't know if being patriotic is that easy to justify in a country like Greece. Take pride in the rich history of struggle and rebellion that can be found in your country's past, sure... but to be patriotic about your country itself just tends to mean tail ending your home grown bourgeoisie.

I think FSL should explain what the KKE line on patriotism and the Greek nation is.

How the hell can loyalty and pride in a nation state be helpful to an ideology that advocates working class unity without regard to the nations they come from, and the abolition of all countries themselves? Seriously? I think you are confusing infighting between bourgeious factions as communist.

And no, the black panthers or the red chinese were not bourgeious, but its possible that they had a bourgeious or reactionary line on some issues, no?

[vyborg]

So nationalism, fascism is very much alive in Greece, although i'm not quite sure how big their numbers are. Any ideas? (anyone who's more familiar with Greece or lives there?)

Do not confuse things...nationalism is a thing, fascism another. In Greece fascism is not existent and will never be for obvious historical reason. Nationalism is very much alive...

[CChocobo]

Do not confuse things...nationalism is a thing, fascism another. In Greece fascism is not existent and will never be for obvious historical reason. Nationalism is very much alive...

Well what would you consider Golden Dawn?
Everything i've heard about them from the anarchists and various leftist movements they're a fascist group (belief in the aryan ways, racist, anti-immigrant etc.) Well to me nationalism and fascism are the same thing. I don't see how they are any different. Nationalism stresses the notion that the state is important as well as ethnicity or citizenship being of the "same heritage" and belonging, not to mention that said state is superior to other nation states. So to me it's the same thing as fascism. Anyways. Golden Dawn from what i see is a fascist group working in greece.

[FSL]

Well what would you consider Golden Dawn?
Everything i've heard about them from the anarchists and various leftist movements they're a fascist group (belief in the aryan ways, racist, anti-immigrant etc.) Well to me nationalism and fascism are the same thing. I don't see how they are any different. Nationalism stresses the notion that the state is important as well as ethnicity or citizenship being of the "same heritage" and belonging, not to mention that said state is superior to other nation states. So to me it's the same thing as fascism. Anyways. Golden Dawn from what i see is a fascist group working in greece.


"Golden Dawn" is a neo-nazi organization but not with widespread support. In all of Greece it has influence on a few tens of thousands, few of which are "active" in any way.

[manic expression]

I don't want to be harsh here man, but

Leo = Working class man with decades of experience of the class struggle, including being imprisoned and tortured by Syrian state police.
Ah, I see. So anyone who has been tortured by the Syrian police can never be wrong about politics. :lol: I'm sure the Muslim Brotherhood is delighted to hear this.

Deal with the issue. Thanks.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

Ah, I see. So anyone who has been tortured by the Syrian police can never be wrong about politics. :lol: I'm sure the Muslim Brotherhood is delighted to hear this.

Deal with the issue. Thanks.

The comment I was making was addressed to the comment that Devrim was "detached from reality" as well as the dozens of other snide remarks about him, and his supposed lack of conviction, optimism, understanding or relating to the working class from a bunch of students.

Just so we know we're on the same page here, does what i said make sense to you now? Thanks.

[Black Sheep]

Derail some more, guys and girls.:cursing:

[manic expression]

The comment I was making was addressed to the comment that Devrim was "detached from reality" as well as the dozens of other snide remarks about him, and his supposed lack of conviction, optimism, understanding or relating to the working class from a bunch of students.
So you'd argue that every victim of Syrian state suppression has an accurate view and interpretation of the situation in Greece, then?

[Zanthorus]

So you'd argue that every victim of Syrian state suppression has an accurate view and interpretation of the situation in Greece, then?

That's not what he was arguing.

[S.Artesian]

Do not confuse things...nationalism is a thing, fascism another. In Greece fascism is not existent and will never be for obvious historical reason. Nationalism is very much alive...


That's one helluva claim-- not existent. Fascist ideologues and advocates are very existent in Greece.