Republican armed struggle

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

Do the workers of ireland want a return to the armed struggle, or are they too battle weary to go through it again?

The IRA, were a great inspiration to me and it amazed me how a people who for near a millenium have suffered the yoke of imperialism, can keep up a dignified and resolute resistance.

This 1 minute video sums up the support the provies used to have, but do the people buy into shamefeins peace process or do they want to resume the war?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8alvq4oF2I

Must watch video

[Broletariat]

Anyone else from the USA read the title and freak out?

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

Haha:)

[GPDP]

Anyone else from the USA read the title and freak out?

I don't think I'm ever going to be able to deal with the fact that republican can mean something entirely different than what I'm used to.

[32csmabu]

right now there isnt a huge appetite for armed struggle, however anti gfa feeling has grown very considerably in the past few years especially amongst republican working class communities

[Jolly Red Giant]

Do the workers of ireland want a return to the armed struggle, or are they too battle weary to go through it again?
The workers of Ireland never supported the 'armed struggle'. A section of the Catholic Community in the North support the provo campaign, support for the provos in the South was minimal.


This 1 minute video sums up the support the provies used to have, but do the people buy into shamefeins peace process or do they want to resume the war?
Must watch video
So a couple of people singing a song about the Brits equates to 'support for the provos'. Get a life.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

Yes me saying the IRA had support mean i need to get a life..... Interesting concept, but its as i suspected.... your a total prick

[Jolly Red Giant]

Yes me saying the IRA had support mean i need to get a life..... Interesting concept, but its as i suspected.... your a total prick
You are claiming that the IRA had the support of workers in Ireland - the didn't and they don't - the IRA had the support of a section of the Catholic community in the North and has minute support among workers in the South. To suggest what you are suggesting demonstrates how far removed from reality you are.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

What dont catholics in the north work, you freestate snob

Fuck you

[Jolly Red Giant]

What dont catholics in the north work, you freestate snob
I will repeat again - the IRA had the support of a section of the Catholic community in the North (including workers) - it did not have any support among the Protestant working class. The IRA had minimal support among workers in the South.

The 'workers of Ireland' never supported the IRA campaign.


Fuck you
seriously - is that the best you can do.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

So the Protestant IRA volunteers were not IRA supporters, what an idiot

Anyway stop going on about religeon, its nothing to do with it, you sectarianist berk

Sectarianism is merely a symptom of British Rule in Eire.

[MaoTseHelen]

Anyone else from the USA read the title and freak out?
No, those ****s don't scare me a bit.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Anyone else from the USA read the title and freak out?

I actually was about to head to my gun case hahaha...geez...I hate this country..

[Jolly Red Giant]

So the Protestant IRA volunteers were not IRA supporters, what an idiot
The number of Protestant IRA volunteers could be counted on one hand and the number of Protestant supporters on another.


Anyway stop going on about religion, its nothing to do with it,
Northern Ireland is a sectarian state - religion has a hell of a lot to do with it. Sectarian attacks are part and parcel of Northern society.


Sectarianism is merely a symptom of British Rule in Eire.
Sectarianism was a key component of British Imperialisms strategy to divide the Irish working class. It has become a monster that imperialism is no longer able to control. It is deeply rooted in society in Northern Ireland and would not simply disappear with the removal of British Imperialism from the North. The IRA campaign reinforced sectarianism and facilitated the use of sectarianism by loyalists to control the protestant community (and vise versa with loyalist paramilitaries).

The IRA campaign singularly failed to achieve its objective of removing British imperialism from Ireland and if re-ignited would similarly fail again in the future. It offers no solution to the problems faced by working class people on this island.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

Becaus ethe freestate boys did not help their northern brothers :)

Just joking, but seriously, what do you want the Northern nationalists to do nothing and just sit back, they live in a unionist state within their own nation, they need to fight the forces that bind them .... no?

[Jolly Red Giant]

but seriously, what do you want the Northern nationalists to do nothing and just sit back, they live in a unionist state within their own nation, they need to fight the forces that bind them .... no?
I couldn't care less what nationalists do. Nationalism has nothing to offer the working class on the island of Ireland. It is a political philosophy that is past its sell-by date, a product of the bourgeois revolution that is incapable of advancing society in any way what so ever. Nationalism in Ireland over the past 100 years has been incapable of defeating imperialism.

The defeat of british imperialism is a task that can only be achieved by united working class action, not by paramilitaries engaging in acts of individual terror, but by building a revolutionary party based on unity of the Catholic and Protestant working class, unity between the working class north and south and unity between the working class in Ireland and Britain. The defeat of imperialism will only be achieved by the dismantling of the British state by proletarian revolution, a revolution that will complete the tasks of the bourgeois revolution as part of the process of establishing a socialist society.

[Yazman]

No more name calling in this thread. This is a verbal warning to everybody.

[howblackisyourflag]

I couldn't care less what nationalists do. Nationalism has nothing to offer the working class on the island of Ireland. It is a political philosophy that is past its sell-by date, a product of the bourgeois revolution that is incapable of advancing society in any way what so ever. Nationalism in Ireland over the past 100 years has been incapable of defeating imperialism.

The defeat of british imperialism is a task that can only be achieved by united working class action, not by paramilitaries engaging in acts of individual terror, but by building a revolutionary party based on unity of the Catholic and Protestant working class, unity between the working class north and south and unity between the working class in Ireland and Britain. The defeat of imperialism will only be achieved by the dismantling of the British state by proletarian revolution, a revolution that will complete the tasks of the bourgeois revolution as part of the process of establishing a socialist society.


I wouldnt say nationalism has nothing at all to offer. On the economy for example, Ireland is basically a tax haven for american multinationals which gives them a valuable entry point to the european market.

Now if Ireland is ever going to have a better standard of living, we're are going to need to continue to be an export economy but one based on building an economy of our own, where we can have more independence to do things like increase corporation tax.

So I think that if we are going to try to escape the neoliberal system, then we will need to have some sort of support for nationalist independence.

I think its very unlikely that there is ever going to be protestant and catholic unity in the north, if anything the GFA will probably fall apart in the future and things will go back to violence, dissident republicanism is growing all the time, although I would not support them.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I wouldnt say nationalism has nothing at all to offer. On the economy for example, Ireland is basically a tax haven for american multinationals which gives them a valuable entry point to the european market.

Now if Ireland is ever going to have a better standard of living, we're are going to need to continue to be an export economy but one based on building an economy of our own, where we can have more independence to do things like increase corporation tax.
Between 1990 and 2005 the Irish economy went through an unprecedented boom. All sections of Irish society benefitted from this boom with some sections benefitting significantly more than others. However there is zero prospect of this boom being repeated. Ireland is now in the midst of an economic depression that is going to get worse. The agenda facing the irish working class is cuts in jobs and services, increased taxation that will fall disproportionately on the poorest sections of society, reduced welfare, increased privatisation etc. etc.

Building 'an economy of our own' that needs to be 'export led', will not lead to a better life for working class people. It could potentially benefit some sections of the working class to a small degree for a limited period but will inevitably lead only to the next recession. The only escape for working class people is the establishment of a democratically planned socialised economy.


So I think that if we are going to try to escape the neoliberal system, then we will need to have some sort of support for nationalist independence.
The only way to escape neo-liberalism is through international working class solidarity not narrow 'nationalist independence'. Nationalist independence, because of its emphasis on the 'nationalist' bit, inevitably leads to national domination by a bourgeois class, something that is not possible in Ireland because of the weakness of the native capitalist class and something that is not in the interests of the Irish working class.


I think its very unlikely that there is ever going to be protestant and catholic unity in the north, if anything the GFA will probably fall apart in the future and things will go back to violence, dissident republicanism is growing all the time, although I would not support them.
You are correct, it is only a matter of time before the GFA falls apart and there is a return to sectarian violence. But you are incorrect in suggesting that working class unity in the North is not possible. Whenever, class politics comes to the fore working class unity, solidarity and action emerges. Whenever sectarian politics dominates then sectarian strife pushes the prospect for class unity into the background.

Despite forty years of sectarian conflict, catholic and protestant workers do engage in class solidarity every single day in their workplaces. Despite the efforts by sectarians I cannot recall a single incidence of strike action by workers being broken by sectarian division. The objective for socialists should be to foster and promote class unity, agitate and organise for class solidarity, not to cheerlead paramilitary organisations who inevitably (whether it is their objective or not) foster sectarianism. It is only through united class action that British imperialism will be defeated, sectarianism will be defeated, and the tasks of the bourgeois revolution on this island can be completed.

Suggested reading -

http://www.socialistworld.net/pubs/tt/00.html

[howblackisyourflag]

Between 1990 and 2005 the Irish economy went through an unprecedented boom. All sections of Irish society benefitted from this boom with some sections benefitting significantly more than others. However there is zero prospect of this boom being repeated. Ireland is now in the midst of an economic depression that is going to get worse. The agenda facing the irish working class is cuts in jobs and services, increased taxation that will fall disproportionately on the poorest sections of society, reduced welfare, increased privatisation etc. etc.

Building 'an economy of our own' that needs to be 'export led', will not lead to a better life for working class people. It could potentially benefit some sections of the working class to a small degree for a limited period but will inevitably lead only to the next recession. The only escape for working class people is the establishment of a democratically planned socialised economy.


The only way to escape neo-liberalism is through international working class solidarity not narrow 'nationalist independence'. Nationalist independence, because of its emphasis on the 'nationalist' bit, inevitably leads to national domination by a bourgeois class, something that is not possible in Ireland because of the weakness of the native capitalist class and something that is not in the interests of the Irish working class.


You are correct, it is only a matter of time before the GFA falls apart and there is a return to sectarian violence. But you are incorrect in suggesting that working class unity in the North is not possible. Whenever, class politics comes to the fore working class unity, solidarity and action emerges. Whenever sectarian politics dominates then sectarian strife pushes the prospect for class unity into the background.

Despite forty years of sectarian conflict, catholic and protestant workers do engage in class solidarity every single day in their workplaces. Despite the efforts by sectarians I cannot recall a single incidence of strike action by workers being broken by sectarian division. The objective for socialists should be to foster and promote class unity, agitate and organise for class solidarity, not to cheerlead paramilitary organisations who inevitably (whether it is their objective or not) foster sectarianism. It is only through united class action that British imperialism will be defeated, sectarianism will be defeated, and the tasks of the bourgeois revolution on this island can be completed.

i mostly agree, but on that last point of sectarianism in the workplace, I remember when the cocacola workers in dublin were striking last year, attempts were made to try and get the factory workers in the north to strike in solidarity with them, but as far as I know the attempts failed and sectarianism was given as the reason why.

[Jolly Red Giant]

i mostly agree, but on that last point of sectarianism in the workplace, I remember when the cocacola workers in dublin were striking last year, attempts were made to try and get the factory workers in the north to strike in solidarity with them, but as far as I know the attempts failed and sectarianism was given as the reason why.
It is interesting that you pick Coca Cola as an example. I do not know the detail of the situation in relation to the Coca cola plant in Lisburn but the workforce in the company north and south does have a history.

You may remember the Boycott Coca cola campaign that has been running for the past few years. When efforts were made to involve the workforce in Ireland ITGWU and USDAW union officials (in the person of Anne Speed who was a SF member in the South) consciously campaigned against the boycott. The union officials used the threat of job losses in the plants north and south to undermine the boycott campaign and undermine the notion of solidarity between working class people, particularly in relation to attempts to shut the plant in Lisburn in 2004 when SIPTU did bugger all to help. It is hardly surprising that when direct attacks on the jobs of these workers were under threat that union officials would have had significant difficulty in reversing the insular outlook of the workers in the plant in Lisburn. I would be surprised if sectarianism was a factor (although it is always possible for a sectarian in the workforce to try and whip it up) and would suggest that the lack of solidarity had far more to do with the mood fostered by the SIPTU and USDAW officials which consciously undermined solidarity among the workforce and helped develop and insular outlook in the bottling plants.

In contrast I can give numerous examples of cross community solidarity over the past 40 years.
1. For many years in Shorts aircraft factory, with a overwhelmingly protestant workforce, the chief shop steward was from a catholic background (and a socialist).
2. In 1997 300 workers at the Montupet plant in Dunmurray went on strike. The majority of the workforce was catholic and the chief shop steward was protestant. Republicans went to the catholic workers in the plant and told them get rid of the shop steward as he couldn't be trusted because he was protestant. They were ran from the picket lines by the workers.
3. In 2002 the UDA murdered a catholic postman Danny McColgan in North Belfast. Danny worked in an office that had a mainly protestant workforce. The 'Red Hand Defenders' issued a statement saying all Catholic postal workers were considered "legitimate targets". However after cross community strike action and demonstrations the UDA were forced to withdraw the threats and distance themselves from the killing.
4. On many occasions over the period of the troubles paramilitaries on both sides of the sectarian divide issued death threats against public servants (workers in welfare offices were a common target). In every case the NIPSA members involved called strike action forcing the paramilitaries to withdraw the threats.

I could go on and talk about the killing of workers at Shorts in 1993, on the Shankill road in 1993, Greysteel and how workers reacted to the atrocities - this is just a flavour of some of the situations where sectarianism has been faced up to and counteracted in workplaces. On many occasions during the troubles strike action by catholic and protestant workers has cut across the escalation of tit-for-tat killings by paramilitaries.

Now I am not arguing that sectarianism does not exist in workplaces in Northern Ireland. It does and the influence it has often reflects events outside the workplace. Indeed to promotion of multinational, non-union companies by Sinn Fein hoping to get them to site their plants in their 'community' does undermine the cross community solidarity, but the trade unions in the North have been the one sphere of society that sectarianism has not held sway. Again I am not aware of a single incidence where a strike has been broken in the north by sectarianism.

Furthermore, campaigns like the campaign against the water charges also contributes to cross community solidarity action. The common cause of defeating an unjust tax could go a long way to undoing much of the sectarian influences promoted by sectarian politicans on both sides over the past period.