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JazzRemington
5th May 2010, 03:15
"University Park, Pa. -- A water feature found in the Maya city of Palenque, Mexico, is the earliest known example of engineered water pressure in the new world, according to a collaboration between two Penn State researchers, an archaeologist and a hydrologist. How the Maya used the pressurized water is, however, still unknown.

"Water pressure systems were previously thought to have entered the New World with the arrival of the Spanish," the researchers said in a recent issue of the Journal of Archaeological Science. "Yet, archaeological data, seasonal climate conditions, geomorphic setting and simple hydraulic theory clearly show that the Maya of Palenque in Chiapas, Mexico, had empirical knowledge of closed channel water pressure predating the arrival of Europeans."

The feature, first identified in 1999 during a mapping survey of the area, while similar to the aqueducts that flow beneath the plazas of the city, was also unlike them. In 2006, an archaeologist returned to Palenque with a hydrologist to examine the unusual water feature. The area of Palenque was first occupied about the year 100 but grew to its largest during the Classic Maya period 250 to 600. The city was abandoned around 800.

"Under natural conditions it would have been difficult for the Maya to see examples of water pressure in their world," said Christopher Duffy, professor of civil and environmental engineering. "They were apparently using engineering without knowing the tools around it. This does look like a feature that controls nature."

Underground water features such as aqueducts are not unusual at Palenque. Because the Maya built the city in a constricted area in a break in an escarpment, inhabitants were unable to spread out. To make as much land available for living, the Maya at Palenque routed streams beneath plazas via aqueducts.

"They were creating urban space," said Kirk French, lecturer in anthropology. "There are streams in the area every 300 feet or so across the whole escarpment. There is very little land to build on."

These spring-fed streams combined with approximately 10 feet of rain that falls during the six-month rainy season also presented a flooding hazard that the aqueducts would have at least partially controlled.

The feature the researchers examined, Piedras Bolas Aqueduct, is a spring-fed conduit located on steep terrain. The elevation drops about 20 feet from the entrance of the tunnel to the outlet about 200 feet downhill. The cross section of the feature decreases from about 10 square feet near the spring to about a half square foot where water emerges form a small opening. The combination of gravity on water flowing through the feature and the sudden restriction of the conduit causes the water to flow out of the opening forcefully, under pressure.

"The conduit could have reached a theoretical hydraulic head limit of 6 meters (about 20 feet)," said Duffy.

At the outlet, the pressure exerted could have moved the water upwards of 20 feet.

"The experience the Maya at Palenque had in constructing aqueducts for diversion of water and preservation of urban space may have led to the creation of useful water pressure," said French.

The Piedras Bolas Aqueduct is partially collapsed so very little water currently flows from the outlet. French and Duffy used simple hydraulic models to determine the potential water pressure achievable from the Aqueduct. They also found that Aqueduct would hold about 18,000 gallons of water if the outlet were controlled to store the water.

One potential use for the artificially engineered water pressure would have been a fountain. The researchers modeled the aqueduct with a fountain as the outlet and found that even during flood conditions, water would flow in the aqueduct, supplying the fountain, and above ground in the channel running off the slope. Another possibility could be to use the pressure to lift water onto the adjacent residential area for use as wastewater disposal.
"The palace has features that suggest something similar," said French
The National Science Foundation and the Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies supported this work."

http://live.psu.edu/story/46532

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Further proof that man pwns nature hard style. While Europe was falling apart due to the collapse of the Roman Empire in the west, the Mayans were developing what amounts of plumbing. I wonder what the white supremacists have to say about this.

Agnapostate
5th May 2010, 04:11
I was banned from Stormfront after posting that once. :D

#FF0000
5th May 2010, 04:31
Pre-colombian american cultures are so fucking cool. I suggest the book 1491 by Charles C. Mann to any of you who're interested in it. New evidence is coming out that completely changes the modern perception of what the Americas were like when Columbus got here.

danyboy27
5th May 2010, 13:33
interresting. Mesoamerican civilisation always amazed me, the way they where both really really intelligent and also, at the same time Naive confuse me sometimes.

i mean, you have a civilisation with incredible mathematical skill, remarkable engineering skill, people who invented obsidian tooth apparel, and at the same time they worship the sun and perfom sacrificial rituals.

Robocommie
5th May 2010, 14:38
Pre-colombian american cultures are so fucking cool. I suggest the book 1491 by Charles C. Mann to any of you who're interested in it. New evidence is coming out that completely changes the modern perception of what the Americas were like when Columbus got here.

Yeah absolutely, 1491 is a fantastic book.

Saorsa
5th May 2010, 15:00
i mean, you have a civilisation with incredible mathematical skill, remarkable engineering skill, people who invented obsidian tooth apparel, and at the same time they worship the sun and perfom sacrificial rituals.

i mean, you have a civilisation with incredible mathematical skill, remarkable engineering skill, people who invented beethoven, and at the same time they worship a Jewish zombie wizard who wants you to drink his blood.

Agnapostate
5th May 2010, 16:44
interresting. Mesoamerican civilisation always amazed me, the way they where both really really intelligent and also, at the same time Naive confuse me sometimes.

i mean, you have a civilisation with incredible mathematical skill, remarkable engineering skill, people who invented obsidian tooth apparel, and at the same time they worship the sun and perfom sacrificial rituals.

I'm not going to be politically correct and sneeze at Europeans' various accomplishments during the period, but it was at the time of the Spanish Inquisition, St. Bartholomew's Massacre, the end of the Crusades, etc. Not that it's accurate to even implicitly conflate the Maya with the Aztecs, but religious class hierarchy will always generate brutality.

Turinbaar
22nd May 2010, 20:42
I went to Tikal in Guatemala and saw the latrine system they carved into the stone building. It looked very sophisticated for a stone age society, using water pressure and so on.

Agnapostate
22nd May 2010, 20:59
I went to Tikal in Guatemala and saw the latrine system they carved into the stone building. It looked very sophisticated for a stone age society, using water pressure and so on.

The Mayans weren't stone age, as they had metallurgy, though that system of classification isn't applied to the West anyway. They use Pre-Classic, Classic, and Post-Classic to refer to the Americas.

Turinbaar
22nd May 2010, 21:05
The Mayans weren't stone age, as they had metallurgy, though that system of classification isn't applied to the West anyway. They use Pre-Classic, Classic, and Post-Classic to refer to the Americas.

They utilized metal, but not for tools or weapons, which is what is taken into account in the name stone age. If you insist on these name distinctions then fine. The point is their basic technological equipment were much more crude than in societies with metal tools and the wheel.

Agnapostate
22nd May 2010, 21:14
They utilized metal, but not for tools or weapons, which is what is taken into account in the name stone age. If you insist on these name distinctions then fine. The point is their basic technological equipment were much more crude than in societies with metal tools and the wheel.

They did utilize metal for tools and weapons, which would place them in the Bronze Age if you truly wanted to apply that standard to pre-Columbian America, though it's not very sound. Here are some bronze axes used by the Maya:

http://www.precolumbianweapons.com/images/axe.ht30.jpg

http://www.precolumbianweapons.com/images/axe.ht28.jpg

The Mississippians and the Inca were among the few Amerindian societies that utilized iron extracted from meteorite deposits. As for the wheel, what integral purpose does it play in territory that lacks draft animals?

Turinbaar
22nd May 2010, 21:30
They did utilize metal for tools and weapons, which would place them in the Bronze Age if you truly wanted to apply that standard to pre-Columbian America, though it's not very sound. Here are some bronze axes used by the Maya:

http://www.precolumbianweapons.com/images/axe.ht30.jpg

http://www.precolumbianweapons.com/images/axe.ht28.jpg

The Mississippians and the Inca were among the few Amerindian societies that utilized iron extracted from meteorite deposits. As for the wheel, what integral purpose does it play in territory that lacks draft animals?

My mistake, I've only seen their jade tools. As for the wheel, slaves can easily substitute for draft animals, of which there were many in that society.

JazzRemington
22nd May 2010, 21:37
But they still didn't have the wheel, I think. If I recall, most of their slaves were used for sacrifices.

Agnapostate
22nd May 2010, 21:42
As for the wheel, slaves can easily substitute for draft animals, of which there were many in that society.

Bipeds are not nearly as efficient as domesticated quadrupeds in terms of speed, strength, and endurance, and since abundant manpower was already used for the purpose of rotational locomotion of construction materials anyway, I don't see that it would have enhanced their abilities nearly as much as wheels attached to draft animals would have.

Dimentio
22nd May 2010, 21:43
They did not really need the wheel, since they did neither have tame oxen or horses. Given the look of their calendar, its obvious that they knew not only about the principle of the wheel and of the cogwheel.

Neither did they believe that the world would end 2012.

Agnapostate
22nd May 2010, 21:48
But they still didn't have the wheel, I think. If I recall, most of their slaves were used for sacrifices.

I think it's been established that the Mayans did practice some degree of human sacrifice, but never that they did so on such a mass scale as the Aztecs (who did have the wheel, but still couldn't use it effectively because of their lack of draft animals), but I don't know how many slaves were dedicated to that purpose. I know the majority of Aztec sacrificial subjects were prisoners captured in regional conflicts such as the Flower Wars.

Ocean Seal
23rd May 2010, 03:04
Yes, every culture has had certain breakthroughs which is why the idea that certain cultures are superior to others is simply erroneous.

MarxSchmarx
23rd May 2010, 03:43
I thought they did invent the wheel, but it was only used in childrens toys and stuff like that:
http://www.precolumbianwheels.com/

Agnapostate
23rd May 2010, 06:54
I thought they did invent the wheel, but it was only used in childrens toys and stuff like that:
http://www.precolumbianwheels.com/

That's right; the issue was the absence of draft animals.

Ocean Seal
23rd May 2010, 16:24
Yes I don't recall human sacrifice being associated with Mayans as much as it associated with Aztecs.

khad
26th May 2010, 00:08
This is a reminder to everyone to keep it civil. This is a story about plumbing, so let's not drag it into a flamewar about cutting the hearts out of children, ok?

We already have a thread for that shit...

danyboy27
26th May 2010, 00:43
This is a reminder to everyone to keep it civil. This is a story about plumbing, so let's not drag it into a flamewar about cutting the hearts out of children, ok?

We already have a thread for that shit...

and it was indeed a great sign of how technologicly advanced they where.

their knowledge of mathematics where also quite advanced.

i just wonder how beneficial it could have been for both the mayan/aztec and the european if they would have just shared their mutual knowledge fairly without plunder or exploitation.

Ocean Seal
26th May 2010, 00:44
It is quite impressive that they developed such an expansive system of plumbing. I wonder, what would have happened if the Maya had existed well into the peak of the Aztec Empire?

danyboy27
26th May 2010, 00:48
It is quite impressive that they developed such an expansive system of plumbing. I wonder, what would have happened if the Maya had existed well into the peak of the Aztec Empire?

perhaps a clash of civilisation?

Ocean Seal
26th May 2010, 00:53
Seems likely, but then again Aztecs didn't seem to have much imperial resistance. I wonder if diplomatic relations would have occurred for some time.

Agnapostate
26th May 2010, 04:50
The Maya decline never involved their disappearance. They were aware of the existence of the Aztecs and heard of Moctezuma's death and the fall of Tenochtitlan before they were themselves thrown into a struggle with Pedro de Alvardao and his forces, and had some channels of trade and communication into Triple Alliance territory, as the territories and regions of Europe had to each other.

Robocommie
26th May 2010, 12:44
Yeah, it's always funny to me to hear about people asking mysteriously, where did the Mayans go? They're still there, to this day.

Blake's Baby
26th May 2010, 12:50
Well, exactly. In some respects the relationship between the Mayans and the Aztecs is a bit like the relationship between the Greeks and the Romans. While they aren't identical by any means, there was a lot of stuff going on in the development of Aztec culture and society that can be paralleled, and some that can be directly linked, to Mayan culture and society.

'Oooh, where did the Greeks go? Spooky... oh, no, they're over there.'