How to 'convert' people?

[superborys]

I have been wanting to at least try to help the solidification of the working class by enlightening my intelligent fellow classmates, namely because I'm under the age of 18 and I don't know my protest rights well enough to go do anything, and I live in freakin' hicksville, TN, no one knows what left or right means here.

Anyway, I want to convert people, so to speak. I don't want to wait until the situation arises, considering it never will here. However, I've already encountered a few problems:

1. When I ask people about their political views and they say demo/repub whatever they say, I do the whole "describe Communism without saying it" bit, and then they get angry at me for being a "dirty Commie" or something along those lines, and I tell them to prove to me why capitalism is better. They then go to either supply a point I can easily disprove, or they just say "Communism is bad. It can't work. It's bad in large amounts, greed will overthrow it blah blah blah."

With a long conversation I could easily outdo them here by showing them that greed is a result of limited availability of the necessities of life, but most of them just refuse to listen to me, and assume that Communism is 100% bad and 0% good or viable. They just refuse to hear me or what I have to tell them. The "human nature isn't real, greed isn't universal" line is not very solid and convincing on the outside, and doesn't get people interested in what I'm saying. Is there anything else we can use to counter the greed line, it seems to be the #1 point that comes up when I debate the smarter people.

2. Like I said above, they refuse to listen. Are there any other techniques you guys have employed in order to get people's attention?

3. There's a problem that I know several people that I'm a little shy to approach about the subject due to the stigma associated with the word Communism. I'm afraid that when I ask them outright "what are your views on Communism" and don't immediately, out of the gate, keep a negative persona about it, they'll consider me crazy, evil, etc. Any way to counter this?



We can never hope to have a revolution if we only demonstrate. Demonstrations in this country mean little, if anything. Action matters, and ideas become known through bold, strong action. Look at how when PL infiltrated the KKK demonstration and assaulted the Grand Dragon. They were out to show how anti-racist they were, and I'm sure that proved it, if anyone went behind it and looked at who the guy was and why he did it.

We need action, not idle protests. Sure, they help, but we have to do our best to unite the people against the capitalists, if we ever wish to succeed.

[superborys]

Another question:

There are certain people who I meet who not only don't know about politics, they do not care at all. In you guys' experience, are these people worth the effort, or is it talking to a wall? I don't mean those who ignore us, but those who are just apathetic about politics, they don't care one way or another and they may or may not have social stigma against Communism. Are these people worth the effort in the beginning?

[Broletariat]

I find its best to not outright talk about politics but look for a lead-in. For example, if a class-mate needs a pencil and someone loans him/her one, that's Mutual Aid which runs counter to the idea of competition under Capitalism, pointing things like this out to people make them understand how illogical Capitalism is.

[mikelepore]

or they just say "Communism is bad. It can't work. It's bad in large amounts, greed will overthrow it blah blah blah."

Greed or the desire for power cannot disturb a classless society, because the society wouldn't have the infrastructure that gives the greedy person opportunity to act upon the impulse. When there is no social role as the capitalist boss, the greedy person may wish to be a capitalist boss, but the wish cannot be fulfilled. Worst case, there might be some number of would-be greedy people who are left feeling frustrated, while the operation of society goes on undisturbed. Similarly, if you had a neighbor who wished to be a king, emperor, or pharaoh, that wish wouldn't create the opportunity to make the wish come true, it would only leave an emotionally frustrated individual for us to feel sorry for. Likewise, in a classless society, regarding a greedy person who wished to be the owner of the means of production, and the economic ruler of others, when such a social role no longer exists in society's institutions.

[The Inquisitor]

From my experiences in dealing with conservatives, let them do the talking when it comes to politics and trip them up with comments that point out how unjust or hypocritical their statements are, such as their feelings that America increasingly becoming a more Corporate-ran Totalitarian state is some how Socialist. I am better being on the defensive when it comes to debates, but it might be different for you.

As for people who just don't care, don't bother with it. They'll go along with whatever, when the time comes.

[Proletarian Ultra]

Who are you talking to?

If it's working-class people, I guarantee you they already have articulated grievances against the present order of society that will shock you in their specificity and vehemence. They will not be consciously socialist, but they will be there. The point is just not to step on them, to draw them out and enlarge upon them.

If it's bourgeoisie - well, what can you do? I've got a racist old rich-farmer uncle I used to argue politics with all the time. Finally I just snapped one day and told him he was right: yes, negroes would burn down his house and eat him alive under socialism. In retrospect I think that was exactly the right thing to say.

There's a value to convincing some people; there's also a value to freaking some people the fuck out.

[ProudToBeFreek]

first of all, when i read your post, i thought "oh, if only I knew what communism is when I was a high school student" :)
this is already a great step :rolleyes:
when I was younger, i thought that I should talk about communism to everyone, and if i do that, i will make them think further and regret capitalism
let them start talking about politics, and just stay on how capitalism is unfair, don t involve communism. we all know that anti-communism propaganda has no limits and it s hard for a random american not to have a silly fear in the idea of communism :laugh:
also, when you talk about politics, always remember not to use diffucult words, when i first had to talk in my school 's assembly, i made the mistake to talk to my colleagues as i would talk to them if they were leftists.

don t forget that they know almost nothing than YOU know. and for only this reason it is much easier for you to make your ideas sound cool and great and RIGHT to them :wub::thumbup1:

and I apologize for my bad english :)

[GPDP]

first of all, when i read your post, i thought "oh, if only I knew what communism is when I was a high school student" :)
this is already a great step :rolleyes:
when I was younger, i thought that I should talk about communism to everyone, and if i do that, i will make them think further and regret capitalism
let them start talking about politics, and just stay on how capitalism is unfair, don t involve communism. we all know that anti-communism propaganda has no limits and it s hard for a random american not to have a silly fear in the idea of communism :laugh:
also, when you talk about politics, always remember not to use diffucult words, when i first had to talk in my school 's assembly, i made the mistake to talk to my colleagues as i would talk to them if they were leftists.

don t forget that they know almost nothing than YOU know. and for only this reason it is much easier for you to make your ideas sound cool and great and RIGHT to them :wub::thumbup1:

These are good points. Ask them about politics, and when their air legitimate grievances about the system, go with it. Describe how the system is unfair, and afterward talk to them about possible solutions WITHOUT EVER MENTIONING THE WORD COMMUNISM OR SOCIALISM.

Most importantly, when you do talk about your ideas, do so in terms they will understand. Talk about participatory democracy, worker's ownership and management, and an egalitarian distribution of wealth and resources.

You'll be surprised how receptive working people tend to be to socialist ideals, as long as you don't mention the sacrilegious s or c-words.

[ProudToBeFreek]

thank yoy GFDP
Unfortunately, here in greece many people have the illusion that are petty bourjoises, and communism will take their homes away and leave them poor :laugh:
or if you talk about anarchy to them the first think that they will ask you would be "and how we would have streets and buildings" :laugh:
most people are not ready at all to understand communism, so imagine how hard it is fot them to BECOME communists, so I insist that it is a bad idea to mention communism
greedy capitalists really help us to be able to make people accept that capitalist is unfair with their acts. Take it as simply as you can, is this the world we live the world we all dream about? And you will make even a liberal be concerned about capitalism

recognition of the problems around may be a small step, but it still a step further :blushing:

[NecroCommie]

Sarcasm is not only funny, but most cappies can't handle it because we communists rarely need to be inaccurate in our sarcasm. ;)

-Yes you are right! I would like to eat babies and kill people on an industrial scale! That's what communism is about!
-... errmmm... Are you being serious?
- Ofcourse not! What did you think!?

[cb9's_unity]

Generally when I talk about communism to people I don't necessarily 'convert' or even debate, I educate.

Peoples knowledge of communism generally doesn't go past the most basic lies about it, which is especially unfortunate considering how complicated and nuanced most communist and socialist theory is. Recently I have described myself as a Marxist and from there described to people what my beliefs are. My goal is to create a situation where the conversation isn't dominated by strawman arguments. If the person is still interested in talking after I have explained my basic beliefs then I will dispel the strawmen.

However, educating yourself in socialist and communist theory is just as important as educating others. You may be able to defeat someone in an argument, but that doesn't ensure that they'll even be a socialist for a day. The more your learn about socialism the more likely you become a socialist for life.

Also, 500th post fuck yah.

[A.R.Amistad]

First, I would say trying to "convert" people, at least en masse, is a futile thing because honestly, right now, we live in a very reactionary period. I'm not saying we should be passive, and I believe we should build a movement, but mass "conversion" always comes through the appreciation of successful practice and not because of some ideological enlightenment of the masses. The best thing you can do is to present yourself to your non-communist friends in the best way possible. Don't loose your cool, don't get overly emotional and listen before you speak. This should at least gain their respect of you. I think most people expect communists to be screaming utopian zealots. The best ailment for this is to learn, learn learn. Develop your understanding of communism, society, politics, etc. By being as educated on the subject as possible, people will gin respect for you. Don't expect any of them to become communists, though. I think they are too uneducated about society in general to have as eclectic and informed view of the world as you do.

And my polemics against human nature and about existence preceeeding essence should put to sleep the mystical ideas that your friends have about the god of 'human nature.'

[Os Cangaceiros]

Generally if you're trying to explain your ideas to other people, it's smart not to base your conversation in the esoteric rhetoric of the Left. In other words, don't come down too heavy with the "proletariat" and "bourgeoisie".

You'd be suprised at how many people are open to and supportive of our ideas. Studies have shown time and time again that American workers would like more control and autonomy within their workplace. I once got a hardcore anti-communist Cuban ex-pat agreeing with me over the issue of surplus value, and I never mentioned communism or Marx once.

[ContrarianLemming]

There are certain people who I meet who not only don't know about politics, they do not care at all. In you guys' experience, are these people worth the effort, or is it talking to a wall? I don't mean those who ignore us, but those who are just apathetic about politics, they don't care one way or another and they may or may not have social stigma against Communism. Are these people worth the effort in the beginning?

Your talking to a wall.

[which doctor]

This is best done intervention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intervention_%28counseling%29) style, but you need to already have a bunch of lefty friends for it to work. First off, you pick a vulnerable target, kidnap them and bring them to a secure location where you convince them that they need to become a communist because the future of humanity is at stake. If they still aren't convinced, you kill them and dump the body in a discrete location; you probably would've eventually had to send them to the gulag anyways, so no worries.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

Just bombard them with so muchpropoganda that they either avoid you or join you.

If this fails a strong volt of electricity to the genitals will do the trick:)

No seriously though, if you want to spread the word join a group, if there aint any in hicksville, create one.

[superborys]

hicksville is a joke. it's all rednecks here, is what i meant to say. conservative baptists, too. which are basically the same thing, they refuse to believe anything that isn't in the bible.

[Agnapostate]

What sort of people? People in general do not logically deduce each and every one of their political positions; they form sets of positions based on underlying cognitive foundations that typically segregate those positions into those sets. That's why it's rare to encounter a pro-choice, anti-same sex marriage, pro-affirmative action, anti-stem cell research, neoconservative socialist.

You should consult my rhetorical strategies (http://www.revleft.com/vb/rhetorical-strategy-t134487/index.html?p=1737481) that everyone ignored. :p

[bcbm]

hicksville is a joke. it's all rednecks here, is what i meant to say. conservative baptists, too. which are basically the same thing, they refuse to believe anything that isn't in the bible.

"all the believers were together and had everything in common. selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need" acts 2: 44-45

[Agnapostate]

"all the believers were together and had everything in common. selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need" acts 2: 44-45

Again...lack of consistent application of logic.

Most rightist Christians that I've discussed the apostles' evidently communal lifestyle with emphasize that it was voluntary and at odds with socialism, something that ignores the facts that 1) it is state capitalism and not socialism that is involuntary, with communism being based on individual communes, as etymologically indicated and 2) they already recognize the government as a legitimate mechanism for application of their specific religious principles on wider society, which is why the Christian Right is a major political contingency.

[superborys]

Again...lack of consistent application of logic.

Most rightist Christians that I've discussed the apostles' evidently communal lifestyle with emphasize that it was voluntary and at odds with socialism, something that ignores the facts that 1) it is state capitalism and not socialism that is involuntary, with communism being based on individual communes, as etymologically indicated and 2) they already recognize the government as a legitimate mechanism for application of their specific religious principles on wider society, which is why the Christian Right is a major political contingency.

beat me to the punch

[this is an invasion]

Don't try to convert people. This isn't a religion.

[anticap]

Communism is 100% bad and 0% good or viable.

This perspective will never change as long as "education" is run by a State that is run by capitalists; and anyone who thinks that we can sneak in the truth, piecemeal, and one day wake to find a capitalist-run education system that speaks the truth about both capitalism and its antithesis, is mind-numbingly delusional.

[NecroCommie]

Don't try to convert people. This isn't a religion.
No, but this is supposed to be a mass-movement. Perhaps converting is a bad word as it implies that other options are somehow equal. Raising awareness is a term I prefer.

[La Comédie Noire]

Don't go into with the mindset you are going to change someones whole way of thinking with one conversation. A lot of people make the mistake of being overly confrontational, getting ready to bite someone's head off because they think Socialism is the "Road to Serfdom".

A lot of people aren't interested in politics not because they don't care, but because they're afraid of being shamed for their lack of knowledge. I know I refrain from participating in 85% of the topics on this forum for just this reason (down from a whopping 99% due to some independent studying.) It's built into the system "don't think for yourself because all the right ideas were thought of long ago by your natural superiors!" You want to show them what they really think does matter

Your main goal should be to cast doubt or spark interest. As one human being there's nothing more you can really do. For instance if someone were to say "Humans are savage in nature and we shouldn't have democracy" Don't be like "Well first of all this isn't even real democracy! You see once the...." Just suggest something to them "Have you ever heard of Athenian Democracy?" That last piece of advice came from this great essay by a Revleft member named RedStar2000, to paraphrase what he said "People like to be consulted rather than preached to, it confers a sense of respect."

Suggesting them reading material is another great way to make them feel respected.

[NecroCommie]

Comrade Floyd is right about bewaring overtly confrontational tone. Although just today in facebook I sparked someones curiosity with the following rant:

Censored name: This must be one of the most poorly reasoned arguments I have ever heard. What is it's intention? How does it work in practice? Why are the two hostile?
To be honest, I believe you don't have the slightest idea what communism is about.
When he admitted his lack of knowledge I started feeling quilty and changed to kinder tone. :blushing:

[La Comédie Noire]

Haha there's a difference between introducing someone to a topic and arguing with people who fancy themselves intellectual heavy weights and know it alls. Marx was notorious for his polemical style, Critique of the Gotha Programme reads like your average post on Revleft.

It's my humble opinion that if Marx had an account on Revleft he'd receive warning points for flaming.

[anticap]

It's my humble opinion that if Marx had an account on Revleft he'd receive warning points for flaming.

Worse: Once he'd been brought up to speed on everything that had taken place in his name since his death, he'd denounce it all, which would constitute a denouncing of the majority of "Marxists" on this forum, and he'd be banished to OI.

[howblackisyourflag]

I ask people, "You can vote for politicians, why cant you vote for your boss?"

Another good thing is to talk about how the free market doesnt work, for example externalities are ignored, so for example if I buy a car of someone, Im happy because I have a car, hes happy because he got paid for it, but the fact that the car will cause pollution is ignored in the transaction. That is an externality. Or the free market will give us the choice of a ford or toyota, but not a public transport system.

Another question is, Why is it ok that pharma corporations are the most profitable industry in history, yet 10,000 people in sub-saharan africa die every day because they have not get access to medicine that would cost a few cents each to save them. Is this really the best system where if you can afford to bribe these companies to give you medicine you just die? Why cant they be run for the benefit of everyone?

[Agnapostate]

Actually, free market capitalism does none of those things. That would imply that it were some form of existent creature, as opposed to the utopian fairy tale that it actually is. Actually existing capitalism causes all of those problems and more, though.

[MilitantWorker]

Your goal is never to "'convert' people"..or try to change who they are or deny/belittle their background and/or their life struggles

what you wanna do is share experiences and reach a common ground, foster a way of thinking that people start incorporating into everyday life whether it be at home cooking, at the workplace, filling up at the gas station, or what have you...

[The Gallant Gallstone]

I say, just broadcast your message. Don't try to force it down anyone's throat and be willing to change the subject.

Mere exposure to an otherwise completely alien viewpoint plants the seed in a person's mind. When they see photos of a protest or hear a relevant story about abuses and corruption later on, that person may remember your initial arguments and slowly become more sympathetic.

[superborys]

This may be why we cannot unify ourselves. I said a word that meant to bring to one's side on a subject matter, and more than half of these posts are criticizing me for using the word. What does it matter? It's a conversion from capitalist to communist belief, whether or not it's consented to. Sure, communism may be what is true, but that doesn't mean it's still not conversion. Educating people and then causing them to change their minds is conversion, I don't see why it was so important to point that out to me. When we go out to tell people about communism, we aren't as such:
"Communism is good! <Socialist information>"
We usually say:
"Capitalism cannot bring about peace! <Socialist information + anti-capitalist propaganda>"

I won't say that we always say that, because I'd be wrong, but I would be even more incorrect if I said that didn't work. I've only actually brought people to communism that way. Through conviction and passion. People don't listen to information these days unless they're smart, and that cadre of people shrinks constantly.