Does Palestine Exist?

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

I have ben looking into the history of palestine, yet it seems, palestine was never a state, the area we call palestine seems to have been tribal, without a official state or governing body.

No currency.
No official Language.

All i can find is people calling the area palestine after the british mandate and the zionist takeover.

Is this because zionists want to hide palestines past,or was palestine never infact a state.

Either way, this dosent give zionists claim and i still support the PFLP plo etc

Anyone care to shed some light?

Cheers.

[Ryke]

It was never historically an independent state, it's basically the name for the region out of which Israel was formed when the Ottoman Empire was partitioned. There were plans for a Palestinian state to be formed at the same time as Israel, in the same way as various arabic states were created.

[Proletarian Ultra]

During the British mandate, many Arabs in Palestine considered themselves to be South Syrians (http://books.google.com/books?id=YDPKFyZ38qsC&pg=PA170&lpg=PA170&dq=palestine+"south+syrian"+newspaper&source=bl&ots=p408mER-I1&sig=HT2HBzIAvNOJU0FHXmc3rTpVOEg&hl=en&ei=VBXfS_68FsP-8AbEvdyfBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=palestine%20%22south%20syrian%22%20newspaper&f=false). In any case, the question of a pre-existing state is a red herring. The point is the people were there. What kind of state-apparatus they lived under is irrelevant.

[Aesop]

What?

Using that logic most countries today like in Zimbabwe, Jordan, Botswana didn’t exist. Now does the lack of arbitrary lines and currency really justify what is happening there?

Please

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

PT i just spent 2 hours arguing that point with an isreali right wing zionist, who wears a t shirt of a pregnant palestinian woman with a bullseye on her belly, by the end i just screamed i hope all you zionists get the same fate as all those innocent palestinian babies.

Scum like him reallymake me question any god who condones the invasion subjagation, desecration, genocidal and down right horrific acts carried out in his name.

But there are thopusands of jews and rabais against isreal and zionism, they are the true jews.

[AK]

It seems we all need to distinguish between "nation", "state" and "country".

[Ismail]

Africans in South Africa were divided into various ethnic and tribal groups (which the apartheid government loved to play up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan)), but that doesn't change the fact that they were black and absolutely exploited as blacks, and that ethnic and tribal differences ultimately mattered little when they arose against apartheid.

In a similar manner the fact that the Palestinians are basically a subset of the Arabs doesn't change anything. They don't really "exist" as their own nation? Good, neither do the Kuwaitis, Jordanians, or Qataris. They are all Arab and deserve to be united, not have idiotic "Emirs" whose ancestors were pawns of British colonialism, or the Palestinians forced to form their own "nation" because Pan-Arabism descended into a petty-bourgeois right-wing wet-dream under Nasser and onwards.

As PT Cruz said, it's a red herring. Just as the South African government under apartheid talked about how blacks weren't heterogeneous (or how "Blacks fought and oppressed each other before the white man came"), pro-Zionist types talk about how Palestinians aren't an amazingly distinct nation, ergo they don't deserve equality, unlike the Israeli "nation" which, as we all know, totally exists because it happens to have a state which it rules over, right?

[Sir Comradical]

PT i just spent 2 hours arguing that point with an isreali right wing zionist, who wears a t shirt of a pregnant palestinian woman with a bullseye on her belly, by the end i just screamed i hope all you zionists get the same fate as all those innocent palestinian babies.

Scum like him reallymake me question any god who condones the invasion subjagation, desecration, genocidal and down right horrific acts carried out in his name.

But there are thopusands of jews and rabais against isreal and zionism, they are the true jews.

That's fucked up, we need forced labour camps for people like that. Ask him how he'd feel if you wore a t-shirt mocking the victims of the holocaust?

Whether Palestine existed as a state is irrelevant. Point is that people lived in that region who were then removed by force, a process which still continues today. Don't ever begin to argue on their terms.

[AK]

That's fucked up, we need forced labour camps for people like that. Ask him how he'd feel if you wore a t-shirt mocking the victims of the holocaust?

Whether Palestine existed as a state is irrelevant. Point is that people lived in that region who were then removed by force, a process which still continues today. Don't ever begin to argue on their terms.
Is it just me, or is sending someone to a forced labour camp for mocking the holocaust kinda ironic?

[AK]

In a similar manner the fact that the Palestinians are basically a subset of the Arabs doesn't change anything. They don't really "exist" as their own nation? Good, neither do the Kuwaitis, Jordanians, or Qataris. They are all Arab and deserve to be united, not have idiotic "Emirs" whose ancestors were pawns of British colonialism, or the Palestinians forced to form their own "nation" because Pan-Arabism descended into a petty-bourgeois right-wing wet-dream under Nasser and onwards.
Ah, ethnic unity. Spoken like a true capitalist. :wub:

[Barry Lyndon]

Being a resident of the United States, the parallel I always think of is the Native Americans. When someone brings up that there was no Palestinian state before 1948, I usually counter that the indigenous inhabitants of North America didn't have modern nation-states either, so do they think that the genocide of those people and the theft of their land was justified? You have to throw these arguments back in these people's faces, expose them for what they are- apologists for ethnic cleansing and colonialism. Better also that you have these arguments in front of others, too. You may not be able to turn around a hardcore racist that your arguing with, but you may be able to get others to think about the issue in a different way.

I have had way too much practice arguing about this issue, I am part Arab and I attended a middle and high school with a lot of Jewish students, a good portion of whom were rabidly pro-Israel, it was pretty difficult for me. So this was always a point of contention I had, although I should add that their were Jewish students who would take my side.

[Ismail]

Ah, ethnic unity. Spoken like a true capitalist. :wub:No, spoken like a Communist who dislikes Nasser and Co. Unless you'd like to defend the legitimacy of Emirates whose only basis for existence depends upon the fact that they were ex-British protectorates, of course.

I was under the impression that it was the capitalist states in Arabia who would prefer to sell out the Palestinians time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan) and time again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_Accords).

[empiredestoryer]

its just the same old story just plain old colonization one of the most evil things in human history...

[son of man]

Who defended Jerusalem against the Crusaders in 1099?

Arab Muslims did. Jews were present as they were slaughtered along with the Muslim inhabitants by the marauding Christian army.

The chronicle of Ibn al-Qalanisi states the Jewish defenders sought refuge in their synagogue, but the "Franks burned it over their heads", killing everyone inside. One account alleges that the Crusaders circled the flaming building while singing "Christ, We Adore Thee!, Thee are our light, our direction, our love"
Bad enough Christians turning up at your house - worse when there are 100,000 of them and they want to murder you.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

and jesus said, let ye without sin cast the first stone, hey look they dont believe in christ kill em.

Hypocritical no?

[freepalestine]

Who defended Jerusalem against the Crusaders in 1099?

Muslims did. Jews were present as they were slaughtered along with the Muslim inhabitants by the marauding Christian army.

The chronicle of Ibn al-Qalanisi states the Jewish defenders sought refuge in their synagogue, but the "Franks burned it over their heads", killing everyone inside. One account alleges that the Crusaders circled the flaming building while singing "Christ, We Adore Thee!, Thee are our light, our direction, our love"
Bad enough Christians turning up at your house - worse when there are 100,000 of them and they want to murder you.whats the point of that??you could mention the byzantines and who helped push them out of palestine.



"PALESTINE" the word has been mentioned since the romans,and canaan previous...

[Sir Comradical]

Is it just me, or is sending someone to a forced labour camp for mocking the holocaust kinda ironic?

Nope. The point of concentration camps were to exterminate large numbers of people. Forced labour camps are just prisons where people are forced to work.

[Comrade B]

and jesus said, let ye without sin cast the first stone, hey look they dont believe in christ kill em.
Islam actually believes that Christ was a prophet, however they don't have the idea that there has every been some kind of son of god on earth. Muhammad is the most important prophet.
Shia Islam (10% of Islam, the majority is Sunni) believes that there is a hidden descendant of Muhammad who will return in the future to bring salvation, kinda like Jesus... but as I said, they are only 10%

Anyway, not every nationality has declared itself a state. Because the Palestinians lived nomadically for much of their history, it made it easy for imperialists to conquer their lands. This is the same case for many Native Americans. Whether or not they ever identified as a country is not the issue, the fact is that that land has been their homeland for many, many years.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

Yeah i know, my old gf was muslim, some muslims say jesus was a muslim, islam was created to reclaim what we now know as christianity she said, im not sure though cos i just kinda zoned out after two hours of non stop talk about how muslim girls cant put metal against their skin to shave lol.

I was like, you can masturbate on webcam for me, but you cant shave your pits, your either not religeous or a confused muslim lol

Her solution was this mouse stuff haha

[Dr Mindbender]

I have ben looking into the history of palestine, yet it seems, palestine was never a state, the area we call palestine seems to have been tribal, without a official state or governing body.

No currency.
No official Language.

All i can find is people calling the area palestine after the british mandate and the zionist takeover.

Is this because zionists want to hide palestines past,or was palestine never infact a state.

Either way, this dosent give zionists claim and i still support the PFLP plo etc

Anyone care to shed some light?

Cheers.


Does the above rationale justify what European settlers and eventually the US army did to the native Americans?

No. It wasnt right then and it isn't right now when used against the Palestinians.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

I didnt say it was, i just wanted to know if palestine was ever a state, not that it wouldnt make zionism ok one way or another

[Dr Mindbender]

I didnt say it was, i just wanted to know if palestine was ever a state, not that it wouldnt make zionism ok one way or another

I felt it was important to make that analogy though to help expose the ridiculousness of the zionist argument.

[AK]

Nope. The point of concentration camps were to exterminate large numbers of people. Forced labour camps are just prisons where people are forced to work.
Many jews were required to work, though. Or are you gonna deny this and the holocaust? :p

[Sir Comradical]

Many jews were required to work, though. Or are you gonna deny this and the holocaust? :p

God No!

Look, it was just a sardonic remark to express hatred for Zionists (and other scum).

[freepalestine]

Anyway, not every nationality has declared itself a state. Because the Palestinians lived nomadically for much of their history, it made it easy for imperialists to conquer their lands. factual error palestinians/canaanites lived in settled communitys.villages,towns etc.
ps.although nomadic life may have started after 1948

[Comrade B]

didn't know that, still, throughout history, the fact that imperialists claimed the land they were living on belonged to whatever government the imperialists were from doesn't mean that we should think that the governments rightfully deserved control over Palestinian land

[Proletarian Ultra]

didn't know that,

Don't feel bad, most people don't. The imperialists want everybody to think it was all people riding around on camels amidst sand dunes and shit. When it was the most urbanized population in the Arab world, had the highest literacy rates, the highest proportion of Christians, advanced agriculture etc.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

yeah zionism has a way of making history subjective.... to thier truth