Correct reading of the Koran and Bible.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

Hello.

I have just finished watching east is east with a muslim friend of mine, we were talking about religeon and i brought up to him some of the horrible and reactionary statements in all the holy texts.

After some debate i suggested that to properly read the Koran and bible, we must understand that these texts were written thousands of years ago, when stoning rape victims, killing non believers was completely natural.

While alot of us defend stalins homophobia because at the time people did not know better, we seem to forget that during biblical times people did not know better.

Also some of the stories of how mohamed is stoned for preaching islam, yet he returns and prays for god to forgive the stone throwers is inspiring.

I think if we take out the stuff put in their by mans conciousness thousands of years ago and read it with understanding of when it was written in mind, the koran, and bible can be very revolutionary , especially for their time.
Does anyone care to debate about this?

[Nolan]

I don't defend Stalin's homophobia. Lenin made efforts to extend rights to homosexuals, and that was before Stalin. That's one of the big issues I have with Stalin's leadership.

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are simply reactionary. They all preach patriarchy, homophobia, xenophobia, and other things. I see no way to rehabilitate any of them more than, say, racism for revolutionary purposes.

[Steve_j]

While alot of us defend stalins homophobia because at the time people did not know better,

Ummmm like who?


we seem to forget that during biblical times people did not know better.

Neither did hitler so whats your point?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Hello.

I have just finished watching east is east with a muslim friend of mine, we were talking about religeon and i brought up to him some of the horrible and reactionary statements in all the holy texts.

After some debate i suggested that to properly read the Koran and bible, we must understand that these texts were written thousands of years ago, when stoning rape victims, killing non believers was completely natural.

While alot of us defend stalins homophobia because at the time people did not know better, we seem to forget that during biblical times people did not know better.

Also some of the stories of how mohamed is stoned for preaching islam, yet he returns and prays for god to forgive the stone throwers is inspiring.

I think if we take out the stuff put in their by mans conciousness thousands of years ago and read it with understanding of when it was written in mind, the koran, and bible can be very revolutionary , especially for their time.
Does anyone care to debate about this?

Well, I can't say that I've defended Stalin on his homophobia, but rather on what I feel is worth defending. I didn't defend Castro's either, but that went away eventually. Just like how I don't defend George Washington's use of slaves, though I'd argue that he wanted to release them, due to how they were released when his family died or chose to free them, but he couldn't say it out-right for people would've never followed him as they did when he sticked with a somewhat life of "norm". I think whatever happened that was terrible in the past should be looked at through an offensive matter. The past can repeat itself, & so for it to be understood, we must recognize it for what it was - a wrong. The bible is filled with more than just killing rapists. It also talked about killing their slaves - well, it said that they couldn't kill them instantly, but if they died in a matter of days then it's fine for the slave is their property. These are all things we must go against, but it shouldn't be seen as the entirety of what we're going after either.

Nothing is white, & nothing is black. We're all just a bunch of shades of gray. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

yes and when these things were written, no one knew these things were wrong, it seems slightly stupid to take the bible word for word, same with the koran, i mean in biblical times there wasnt much class conciousness, there wasnt even capitalism, of course there is horrific stuff in both texts, because horrific reactionary notions prevailed, yet can anyone tell me the saying no rich man can enter heaven isnt revolutionary for a book written so long ago.

BTW i am athiest, but i just wanted to debate this, i am sorry if i came off as hostile.

[The Vegan Marxist]

yes and when these things were written, no one knew these things were wrong, it seems slightly stupid to take the bible word for word, same with the koran, i mean in biblical times there wasnt much class conciousness, there wasnt even capitalism, of course there is horrific stuff in both texts, because horrific reactionary notions prevailed, yet can anyone tell me the saying no rich man can enter heaven isnt revolutionary for a book written so long ago.

BTW i am athiest, but i just wanted to debate this, i am sorry if i came off as hostile.

Well, when was biblical times though? As much as my studies have gone, the Christian bible, which includes the story of Jesus, is nothing more than a continuation of pre-christian ancient religious stories. Ranging from different deities & scriptures. The times of history are warped & unproportional within biblical texts.

[Steve_j]

I believe he actually said, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kindom of heaven.

In thats sense i can understand what you are talking about, however it is still attached to the notion of a supreme being and blah blah blah, so no, it is reactionary.

However, for religous people how have the brains to focus on the sense that does exist in these texts then great, and i hope that that sense will one day lead them to throw out these associated texts.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

Me too steve, i just think that we see the religeous as nutters who read the holy texts word for word as my mate said, i read the koran as a man in the 21st century, i replace the reactionary stuff with what i know to be true today, but i hold the spirituality and uplifting messages of the koran up as a light to guide my morals and sense of who i am culturally and as a bridge to connect me to my family across the world (or words to that effect)

[Steve_j]

But do you see the issues with your friends logic there. Firstly muslims believe the Koran to be the exact word of God, i have a few muslim friends like this and whilst i dont shit on their faith, they have the same approach and i find it bizzare. If this is the exact word of God and you believe he she or whatever it is exists how do you adopt a pick and choose attitude?

Further more your friend mentioned a bridge to connect to my family across the world, im not sure if your friend ment litteral family, (correct me if im wrong) but to me its sounds like they meant all fellow muslims, which is creating an unhealthy mindset of segregation.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

Well alot of muslims use islam as a source of unity and power to cope with racism, islamophobia, western imperialism and a way to wage war in holy struggle to stop oil thieving, hegemonic nations raping them dry, after all look at the PLO in palestine, selling out to the imperialists and zionists while hamaz and hezzboullah are defending the people, you can cry reactionary but muslims see religeon and jihad as the only ideology that can succesfully retake land and drive invaders out.

[Steve_j]

And hows their little jihad working for them?

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

better than the pflp or the PLO its not like any socialist blocks ever helped them out.

Hey, jihad has expelled the british from afghanistan, from iran from so many places, it is only natural for jihad to be the choice of liberation, especially as socialism couldnt help dissolusionisng hundreds of PLO members and pushing them into the arms of hamas.

[Steve_j]

I call troll but i will feed you anyway :D

The PLO has never had a socialist priority and the socialist movements within it decided socialism will have to wait till after liberation which i think is part of the problem

The sucide bombings of you jihadist friends alienated the left in Israel working for a socialist union with their pal comrades further reducing any chance of justice and peace

The brits are still in afganistan

The socialist were very much involved in ridding iran of the impreial influences, then your jihad friends fucked them over. And what a wonderful place it is now :)

and lastly, for someone who rates jihad over socialism i think your on the wrong forum

[Red_Insurgent]

Religion was nothing but a tool to create divides and genocide in the old times, but more recently it has just been used to dupe the working class. Though, I do believe that the extreme form of Islam we often see today is the product of poverty, illiteracy and western imperialism.

[Sir Comradical]

East is East is a fucking hilarious film, much better than Bend it like Beckham.

"Son got bloody tickle-tackle, this thing must be fixes"

[Cheung Mo]

Stalin didn't give a fuck about LGBTQ people one way or the other; he simply went after homosexuality so that he would have one more way of going after his political enemies (i.e. actually Leninists and socialists).

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

(George) : so doctor is tickle tackle fix
Doctors looks at george confused
(Doctor): the circumcision went fine
(George); Are you indian eh
Doctors goes to see another patient, george looks at wife
(George) : Bloody indian you see eh

LOL

[Sir Comradical]

(George) : so doctor is tickle tackle fix
Doctors looks at george confused
(Doctor): the circumcision went fine
(George); Are you indian eh
Doctors goes to see another patient, george looks at wife
(George) : Bloody indian you see eh

LOL

Archie Panjabi's spoof bollywood dance was hilarious.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

it was filmed and set where i live lol, and nessa from gavin and stacey was in it as the fat mate who gets humped by that massive dog lol

[danyboy27]

better than the pflp or the PLO its not like any socialist blocks ever helped them out.

Hey, jihad has expelled the british from afghanistan, from iran from so many places, it is only natural for jihad to be the choice of liberation, especially as socialism couldnt help dissolusionisng hundreds of PLO members and pushing them into the arms of hamas.

yea you right, hezbollah is not financed by any socialist block, just by reactionaries state like Iran who give them a lot of support so they can make the israeli pissed.

Using religion to back up a revolution can be verry, verry dangerous.
One time or another, fervents believer backed by a charismatic figure will just take over the whole thing and declare those who are deemed unworthy illegal, lining them up against the wall and shooting them in the brain.

its all good kicking the imperialist and all, but if the end result is more oppression, then its useless.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

Well, fundamentalist represion dosent use phospherus, or level whole streets, or starve thousands of children in blockades, so no even hamas gov is better than isreal aggresion mate, after national independence is won, then the workers can take it from there, or better still the pflp could rise and make the revolution

Still its unlikely.

[Robocommie]

Religion and religious texts are no more inherently reactionary than the reader him or herself. In the United States in the 19th century, the abolitionist movement consisted overwhelmingly of Christians. In the 1960s, Catholic priests walked alongside Baptist ministers in the Civil Rights Marches. In Mexico, it was a priest, Miguel Hidalgo y Costillas, who led peasants and Indians in a revolt against the Spanish in the Mexican War of Independence. In South America, the doctrines of liberation theology have compelled many priests to champion the rights of the poor and even fight as revolutionaries. In South Africa, Archbishop Desmond Tutu was one of the greatest activists against apartheid. In Vietnam, the self-immolation of Buddhist monk Thich Quang Duc was a crucial act in the delegitimizing of the regime of Ngo Dinh Diem.

Throughout the world, the working class is very often religious - religion is the opiate of the masses, it is the sigh of the oppressed. It is the heart of a heartless world. If you're unable to do anything but show contempt for their beliefs, and deride it as superstition and inherently reactionary, you won't be able to relate to them.